Hi friends, can anyone tell me if steam locos had tenders attached when they were on turntables or wether they just relied on the head of steam on board to position them in the sheds.
My longest steamer is 2-8-4 Berkshire ( by Bachmann of course ) which measures 15.5 inches coupler to coupler with the tender attached and 8 inches without.
Thanks, Limey.
Limey -
Steam locomotives were very rarely seperated from their tenders as that is their fuel supply. They didn't seperate them to turn them because they would have to turn and move and store the tender seperately. Much more labor involved. They kept their tender attached in the roundhouse because steam locomotives fires were kept lit and low so they would be ready for service. It takes quite a while to build a fire and bring the boiler up to temperature on a steam locomotive. Turntables had to be long enough to handle the longest locomotive and tender used at that location. Therefore turntables were rplaced with larger ones as lager power came into use. Hope this answers your question.
An interesting thought: The New York Central had 4-8-4 Niagras, and in order to turn them on some tables, the engine house crews would have to jack up the rear end of the tender to clear the movement of the turntable as the aft end cleared the the end of the approach tracks.
Rich C.
To expand a bit on Alco's response, the tender is also the water supply for the loco, which is frankly more important than the fuel. Run out of fuel and the fire dies. Run out of water and anyone near the loco is liable to die from a boiler explosion.
2-8-4 Berkshire on a 110 ft. turntable:
(http://www.billspennsyphotos.com/photos/ERIE-Railroad/Erie%20giant%20S-4%20Berkshire%202-8-4%20road%20freight%20loco%20800x.jpg)
(Photo courtesy of Bill's Pennsy Photos)
Quote from: Limey on May 01, 2013, 08:56:52 AM
Hi friends, can anyone tell me if steam locos had tenders attached when they were on turntables or wether they just relied on the head of steam on board to position them in the sheds.
My longest steamer is 2-8-4 Berkshire ( by Bachmann of course ) which measures 15.5 inches coupler to coupler with the tender attached and 8 inches without.
Thanks, Limey.
The overall length of the tender and engine is completely irrelevant. It's the overall length of the wheelbase that is important. Measure that, not the overall length of engine and tender.
Well, they say there's a prototype for everything, and that applies to having locomotives disconnected from tenders routinely for turning on a table that's too short. However, the example that I'm talking about was a haywire shortline road with a 4-4-0 on the ricketiest looking homemade turntable you ever saw.
I'll mention it's a load of work to disconnect a locomotive and tender. They don't use couplers between a locomotive and tender, but instead a drawbar and safety chains or a double drawbar (typical for modern steam like this 2-8-4. Disconnecting the tender involves dropping a very large pin out of either the locomotive or the tender (and they've been known to be very stubborn about wanting to come out), disconnecting two water hoses, disconnecting air hoses, possibly disconnecting a steam heating line for a passenger engine, plus an air signal line on a passenger locomotive, disconnecting an electrical line for lights on the tender, and disconnecting the stoker on an engine so equipped, or the oil lines on an oil burner. Then, you've got to do all that in reverse to couple them together again, including pushing that big, fat and heavy steel pin back up into its pocket.
Does this sound like something you would want a roundhouse crew to do?
Truth is, outside of that rickety, dilapidated shortline, disconnecting a tender wasn't something done routinely outside of classified repairs of some kind.
Now, I suspect you're asking about this because you want to use a commercial turntable that's easily available and it's 8 inches long, being based on a section of sectional track. If you want to use a turntable to turn this 2-8-4, then you simply should go longer. If you can't afford that or don't have the space, have no fear; there are other ways to turn a big locomotive like that, such as a wye.
The prototype occasionally had the same problem. One good example along the lines of what you face was at the Riverside roundhouse of the Baltimore & Ohio in Baltimore, Md. That roundhouse had a turntable that couldn't accommodate anything larger than a 4-6-2 or a 2-8-2. For that reason, the B&O rarely ran anything bigger than a 2-8-2 between Brunswick, Md. and Baltimore--but for various reasons, including heavy repairs at the Mount Clare shops, a Big Six (2-10-2), or even an EM-1 2-8-8-4 would wind up in Baltimore. In that case, the road did have a wye in the area, but it wasn't really a good idea to use it on a regular basis, as one side of it was a very busy double-tracked main line. That's the reason the B&O regularly double-headed 2-8-2s east of Brunswick rather than use bigger engines.
A variation of this was at Hinton, W.Va. on the Chesapeake & Ohio. There the problem wasn't the turntable, which had been lengthened to 115 feet to handle Mallets, but the roundhouse, which was too short for such long engines, and couldn't be extended as the back of it was up against a hill. In that case, the C&O built a long, shed-like "Mallet house" off to one side for servicing these long engines.
The Southern Pacific did same thing at Dunsmuir, Ca. to handle Cab-Forwards.
Hope this helps out.
I believe there was a branch line location in Australia where the tender on some classes had to be uncoupled.
Of course, in the UK, they'd just run them back tender first. Even the "large" engine, by UK standards, would run tender first for miles and miles either hauling a train or light engine. On some branches, it was standard practice to run tender first in one direction and given the pathetic cabs many UK engines had, it must have been miserable in bad weather.
Once again gentlemen my grattitude to all for enlightening me.
Regards Limey.
Quote from: rogertra on May 01, 2013, 10:50:56 PM
The overall length of the tender and engine is completely irrelevant. It's the overall length of the wheelbase that is important. Measure that, not the overall length of engine and tender.
I don't think you can say that it is completely irrelevant. Some turntable pits have handrails surrounding the portions of the pits that have no tracks; a tender or locomotive with sufficient overhang would contact those handrails.
The photo posted to this thread, of the Berkshire on a turntable, shows just such handrails.
Regards,
Manuel
Quote from: Mdaskalos on May 02, 2013, 03:32:04 PM
Quote from: rogertra on May 01, 2013, 10:50:56 PM
The overall length of the tender and engine is completely irrelevant. It's the overall length of the wheelbase that is important. Measure that, not the overall length of engine and tender.
I don't think you can say that it is completely irrelevant. Some turntable pits have handrails surrounding the portions of the pits that have no tracks; a tender or locomotive with sufficient overhang would contact those handrails.
The photo posted to this thread, of the Berkshire on a turntable, shows just such handrails.
Regards,
Manuel
A number so small as to be insignificant. :-)
Quote from: rogertra on May 02, 2013, 08:05:11 PM
A number so small as to be insignificant. :-)
Roger-
Untrue. Limited clearances around turntables are not so rare. So length IS important on real railroads. However, wheelbase does become important for many modelers who are trying to squeeze a just barely too long locomotive onto a turntable.
-- D
These comments about length vs. wheelbase and turntables reminded me of the design of Chesapeake & Ohio's Allegheny types, with their 2-6-6-6 wheel arrangement and an unusual tender truck combination with one each of six and eight wheels.
The standard turntable on the C&O was 115 feet long. The Allegheny's total wheelbase was 113 feet, which would barely fit on the table. Overall length of the Allegheny over couplers was 125 feet! That was a considerable overhang over the ends of the turntable!
The C&O had one of these tables at Alleghany, Va. (and note the difference in spelling--that's the name of the county and location in Virginia). This was at the top of the grade out of Hinton, W.Va., and the table was used to turn helpers after the 50-mile run up the mountain, which was probably one of the longest pusher districts around. The table is long gone, of course, but the concrete wall of the pit was still visible when I saw the place some years ago. The location is rather tight, being in a narrow valley just past the crest of the grade, and between Alleghany Tunnels to the west and Lewis Tunnels to the east. A road that turns into a dirt track and crosses the railroad near A Cabin runs right past the edge of the turntable pit. I don't know if the road was widened since the turntable was taken out of service, but it didn't look like it might have been, and it's so close it's certain that a fair amount of an H-8 would have been IN THE ROAD/b] as it was being turned. Now, the road doesn't really seem to go anywhere much past A Cabin, but can you imagine coming up on this location at night and finding a pilot beam, pilot, and front coupler of one of these monsters swinging towards your front fender as the engine spins on the table? Whooee!
The New York Central's Niagara 4-8-4s, with that centipede tender, had a wheelbase short enough to fit on a 100-foot turntable--but the engine and tender were 115 feet, 5 1/2 inches long!
Note that many of our models may have a longer wheelbase and overall length than their prototypes, due to a longer than prototypical spacing between engine and tender to go around our sharper model curves.
Quote from: Doneldon on May 02, 2013, 10:38:19 PM
Quote from: rogertra on May 02, 2013, 08:05:11 PM
A number so small as to be insignificant. :-)
Roger-
Untrue. Limited clearances around turntables are not so rare. So length IS important on real railroads. However, wheelbase does become important for many modelers who are trying to squeeze a just barely too long locomotive onto a turntable.
-- D
In a hand full of insignificant cases. Let's not nitpick and do the typical model railroad justification for the unusual by using the old chestnut "There's a prototype for everyting". :) Of course there is but that does not justify an exception to become the rule.
Roger, Roger, Roger. It's OK. You didn't do anything wrong. You just missed on whether there were a significant number of turntables where there were obstructions preventing overhanging locomotives from using the turntables. In the larger scheme of thing, it doesn't matter. But it was most definitely NOT the case that real railroads commonly ignored loco length in favor of wheelbase. Too many things could go wrong if they did, including getting the bridge out of balance if they weren't able to move back and forth a little. And permanent obstructions like fences, railings and buildings. And long locomotives on the roundhouse or garden tracks. This was not an exceptional thing, but a comparatively common thing. If it weren't, there wouldn't be so many pits with three, four or five concentric rings where earlier pit walls stood. Length WAS the critical dimension, not wheelbase.
-- D
Not all table's needed to be balanced. That's just the older, smaller ones that had one central pivot. Like manual tables. The outer wheels on the bridge were provided just for safety/
Modern tables were built more like bridges and were supported by wheels on the ends of the 'table bridge.
These 'tables were rotated using a pneumatic engine powered by the the brake line on the locomotive, as were many balanced 'tables.
It's obvious in the photo of the 4-8-4 posted earlier in this thread that this engine is not on a balanced 'table.
Roger-
Whether all or some, new or old turntables needed to be balanced isn't the point. The point is that a 45' loco on a 40' poses the same problem as a 125 loco on a 120' table: the overhang could hit obstructions. Or, to quote an old book and movie title, Three into Two Won't Go. And, by the way, the 4-8-4 you mentioned is actually a Berk.
Roger, I'm not arguing with you, but I am messing with you. You tend to come down very hard, especially on newbies, when they get a detail mixed up (like calling a Berk a 4-8-4 or adding an incorrect apostrophe to make a plural [table's]) or ask what you seem to think is a bad question or ask a question without digging the answer out of Google themselves. It isn't fun to read your responses and I expect it's even less fun to be the recipient. So this was a friendly taste of your own medicine.
You have an excellent fund of information and an obviously experienced modeler's hand. But I fear that at least some of your expertise is wasted when you put down someone who is sincerely asking a question. Sure, they could often dig the answer up themselves, but maybe they lack the confidence to trust that they have a quality answer (the internet is full of crappy ones) or maybe they are just using this board for what it was intended -- helping modelers get some of the information they can no longer find at an extinct LHS. I would hate to see you stop answering questions because your information tends to be very good, but I'd also like to see you hold back if you're going to be unable to respond without a put-down or some sarcasm.
A word to the wise from a friend.
-- D
What's funny is..........I don't find anything at all offensive about Roger's posts or personality.
And a word to the wise for you Doneldon.......next time you are missing Jim Banner....think about this thread.
Roger's posts are far better than some.......like Rich's posts and his never ending stream of "buy a multimeter......learn how to search.....and save it in your favorites"
Without starting a cross border incident, let's just say Americans and Canadians sometimes communicate differently.........and more often than not the American seems to get offended for some reason. Most of it I find comes from a mindset of "If it didn't happen in the USA, it ain't worth knowing about". Example being, what is the longest/highest steel trestle railroad trestle in the world? That discussion comes up a lot. Most people answer the Tulip Trestle in Indiana I think it is,or one in Pennsylvania.....then wind up amazed to find out it's actually located in Canada.
You should read the editorial in Westlake Publications' Logging, Mining and Industrial Annual 2013. It's a half page spread where the Editor basically admonishes most American manufacturers and hobbyists and apologizes for the poor image they portray of America to the rest of the world.
I'll shut up now.
Roger....you just carry on being who you are.
Sid
I've noticed in previous posts of mine that when Donald joins the discussion, after a post or two he tends to focus on minor typos rather than the topic in hand. This happened during our recent discussion regarding P-51 Mustangs Vs the Spitfire.
As for spelling and grammar, yes I make minor typos, so what? This is not an English exam. Does it really make any difference that I typed 4-8-4 instead of 2-8-4? No! The point being made was that it was a very large engine squeezed on a turntable that was barely long enough for its wheelbase. That was the point, not whether it was a 2-8-4 or a 4-8-4. I could care less what it was, it was just big. Anyway, there are many, many people on this board with terrible spelling and grammar, do I see you mentioning that on their posts? No.
We are discussing the number of turntables with obstructions around them. Which happens with a very, very small minority of turntables in North America as any easily removable obstructions would be removed anyway. In the 2-8-4 photo, the safety handrails are obviously NOT an obstruction. :-) I have visited dozens of roundhouse in my day and I've yet to either see one in real life or to see photos of one printed with obstructions within five or six feet of the end of the bridge.
My writing style is, like my speaking style, blunt and to the point. I do not sugarcoat. That is disingenuous.
As for newbies. For obvious newbies I will provide all the help they ask for. I do not however, suffer fools gladly. In my previous job I trained high school students in technical theatre, many of whom have gone on to professional careers in theatre and the performing arts and who keep in touch on Facebook or who I sometimes meet when they are touring with bands, dance companies and theatre companies that come into town. I taught them using the same style I use here. Seems to have not done them any harm. :)
Google. Yes, people who ask questions without first doing at least some of the work themselves do annoy me. Google first and then ask, to ask without doing some foot work yourself is just plain lazy.
Roger;
Perhaps it is truely said that some people seem to have way too much time on their hands...
Rich C.
Here is one of my favourite pictures, the largest of the CPR steamers on a turntable
http://www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/cgi-bin/www2i/.visual/img_med/dir_153/f_06527.gif
Quote from: Pacific Northern on May 05, 2013, 02:10:09 AM
Here is one of my favourite pictures, the largest of the CPR steamers on a turntable
http://www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/cgi-bin/www2i/.visual/img_med/dir_153/f_06527.gif
Is that at Field BC?
Photos illustrating overhang on turntables, all courtesy of the Chesapeake & Ohio Historical Society:
Handley, W.Va.:
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1271.jpg
This photo is notable is that this engine, 1601, is now on display at the Henry Ford musuem; location in this shot and the others that follow is at Aleghany, Va.:
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1388.jpg
Same engine, same location and time (September 1950)--and you can just make out where that road is to the left of the locomotive. It's also worth noting that the track passing near the turntable doesn't look too far away, either:
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1391.jpg
This photo clearly shows that road, visible behind the tender of 1610 in 1947:
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1091.jpg
How would you like to be driving down that road, especially at night, and find that coupler swinging toward your right front fender?
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1392.jpg
Have fun.
Quote from: J3a-614 on May 05, 2013, 11:09:36 AM
Photos illustrating overhang on turntables, all courtesy of the Chesapeake & Ohio Historical Society:
Handley, W.Va.:
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1271.jpg
This photo is notable is that this engine, 1601, is now on display at the Henry Ford musuem; location in this shot and the others that follow is at Aleghany, Va.:
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1388.jpg
Same engine, same location and time (September 1950)--and you can just make out where that road is to the left of the locomotive. It's also worth noting that the track passing near the turntable doesn't look too far away, either:
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1391.jpg
This photo clearly shows that road, visible behind the tender of 1610 in 1947:
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1091.jpg
How would you like to be driving down that road, especially at night, and find that coupler swinging toward your right front fender?
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1392.jpg
Have fun.
I'm sorry but I don't see what point you are making. I do not see a "road" in any of these photos. All I see is a dirt and or cinder pathway that provides assess for railroaders around the perimeter of the turntable pit. A common practice everywhere. Where is this "road"? By "road", I'm assuming you mean a public road and there isn't one of those anywhere in the photos. Nearest public road was the other side of the main track, as can clearly be seen in Google Earth.
Below is a link to a photo of Handley's roundhouse and engine service tracks just after the roundhouse was demolished. There is no sign of any road near the pit and the closest public road can just be made out through the trees on the right hand side in the photo link below. As for "How would you like to be driving down that road, especially at night......" Well, there is no road and as you can tell from the photos, the pit area was reasonably well lit with at least four street light fixtures mounted on poles around the pit, for railroader safety I expect.
http://www.gottrains.com/chessie/handley/yard7ds.jpg (http://www.gottrains.com/chessie/handley/yard7ds.jpg)
rogertra
I was thinking he was talking about the track next to the turntable,whether it was a siding or main line. It was in the third link posted.
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1391.jpg
I could be wrong...
Jerry
Quote from: Jerrys HO on May 05, 2013, 03:58:50 PM
rogertra
I was thinking he was talking about the track next to the turntable,whether it was a siding or main line. It was in the third link posted.
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1391.jpg
I could be wrong...
Jerry
I'm not sure, he did say "road" not "track". However, if it was close to track, the railroad would obviously leave enough clearance for a man to be standing at the choke point when both the track next to the turntable and a turning locomotive were at the same place. You can tell from the photo I posted that there is ample clearance all around the turntable bridge and the pit.
Roger,
I believe he was talking about the dirt road to the right of the building in the photo you link to: http://www.gottrains.com/chessie/handley/yard7ds.jpg (http://www.gottrains.com/chessie/handley/yard7ds.jpg)
It comes by the building, then about half way around the turntable pit.
Len
The road is at Alleghany (spelled with an "a" at this location if Virginia)--not at Handley, W.Va.
It's just visible running in front of the house or other structure that's behind 1610's tender.
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1091.jpg
Been to both places, and driven on that road at Alleghany, too!
Interesting thing about Alleghany--just west of A Cabin (interlocking tower, still standing up that road as far as I know--this would be to the left, well out of the photo), the tracks enter a cut as they approach the twin tunnels that continue on into West Virginia (the border is at the top of the ridge there), and partway through this cut, you can seen where a trickle of water comes down the side of the cut from a spring just above. This water happens to fall right at the crest of the grade, and as a result, the water flows both east and west through the road's drainage ditches at this point--the eastward trench running to a stream just below the railroad, and the westward trench running through the tunnel. What's most interesting is that this also happens to be the eastern continental divide; the water going east eventually winds up in the Atlantic Ocean, and the water going west will end up joining the Grrenbriar River, the New River, the Ohio River, and the Mississippi to end in the Gulf of Mexico.
I also had the chance to be in the yardmaster's tower in Handley back in the 1970s, and witnessed and interesting a couple of interesting incidents there, both with the same train.
As is common with railroads in coal country, trains are often so long they are made up on two tracks, sometimes more. This means the whole train gets assembled just before departure. Anyway, I'm watching this long, long cut of cars being pulled out by five diesels, and then I start seeing this cut coming back in for the rear half of the train. On the radio, the yardmaster and I can hear the brakeman calling out the distance for the engineer: "Fifteen cars, Jack. . . . . . . .ten cars, Jack. . . . . . . .five cars, Jack. . . . . . . .three cars, Jack. . . . . .two cars, Jack. . . . . ONE CAR, JACK!!"
WHAM!!!!! Clouds of black coal dust rose from the suddenly stopped hoppers.
"Coupling made, Jack," came the voice of the disgusted sounding brakeman.
Later, as the train was pulling out, I noticed one empty car among what must have been 200 loads. I pointed this out to the yardmaster, and he radioed the conductor in the caboose. The conductor responded back that he didn't have the car number in his list of waybills. "That idiot yard crew," said the conductor, "I'm not stopping to cut out that one car. We'll just haul it all the way to Newport News!"
Looked up a couple of more photos from the C&OHS; this is at Alleghany again, and the H-8 (2-6-6-6) is headed for the turntable after pushing a train to here from Hinton. The roof of A Cabin is visible above the locomotive; the station is behind us and to the right. A pair of automobiles--one light, one dark--are parked on the road we've been talking about, behind the trucks. The road crosses the railroad beyond A Cabin. As far as I know, all railroad structures here are gone, except maybe A-Cabin and the signal bridge seen here. Track layout is now just the two main tracks and a crossover here.
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1390.jpg
This photo is taken at A Cabin, looking west; the road is in the foreground, and the spring is back in that cut. The twin Allegheny tunnels are just out of sight. The pusher, which has just been detached from the coal train it has helped from Hinton, is pushing the caboose ("cab" on the C&O) to a point where it can, through crossovers, eventually get behind it and then kick the thing back to its coal train, where it will be recoupled under the control of the conductor or the brakeman manning the hand brake. After all that, the H-8 will proceed to the turntable to be turned for the 50-mile run back to Hinton.
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1515.jpg
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1152.jpg
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-1554.jpg
Station at Alleghany, looking east; turntable and A Cabin behind this location and to the left:
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-3021.jpg
Westbound empty coal train passing A Cabin.
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-5549.jpg
Turntable gone, lot of other things gone, but A Cabin and the toolsheds are still there in 1970:
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-27266.jpg
The station was still around in 1970, but wouldn't be for long; A Cabin is visible in the distance. The location of the turntable was between the station and A Cabin:
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-27280.jpg
A Cabin in 1979:
http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-33005.jpg
Hope the Bach Man doesn't object to these links, but as they are from the C&OHS, they should be safe, no viruses. . .
I would have liked to have seen those 2-6-6-6s in action. I was not around the C&O. The Virginian had some but I did not have a way to railfan. I could seen the yard engines working the coal docks and that was about it. We were in dry dock for about 30 days and could watch the belt line 0-6-0s cross a bridge. The only close railfanning I got to do was watch a N&W 0-8-0 switch. great locomotive. zI don't know what this has to do with the length of the turntable, I was just thinking back 60 years, I guess I got a right to do that.
Quote from: rogertra on May 05, 2013, 02:34:52 PM
Below is a link to a photo of Handley's roundhouse and engine service tracks just after the roundhouse was demolished. There is no sign of any road near the pit and the closest public road can just be made out through the trees on the right hand side in the photo link below. As for "How would you like to be driving down that road, especially at night......" Well, there is no road and as you can tell from the photos, the pit area was reasonably well lit with at least four street light fixtures mounted on poles around the pit, for railroader safety I expect.
http://www.gottrains.com/chessie/handley/yard7ds.jpg (http://www.gottrains.com/chessie/handley/yard7ds.jpg)
J3a and Roger-
I think the issue is that you two are talking about two different turntables, one at Allegany and the other at Handley. The presence of lights and the absence of a road at Handley doesn't mean there were lights at Allegany and no nearby road. I know it's easy to get mixed up with all of the we references but it seems it would make sense not to argue when you are talking about two different locations. Roger, I urge you again not to be so aggressive and quick to argue, especially when you aren't detail oriented. Your defensiveness isn't needed. J3a, thanks for the great turntable shots, including the ones with the obstructions, a fence and a cliff! That would sure slow down a turning locomotive.
-- D
Quote from: Doneldon on May 05, 2013, 11:52:11 PM
Quote from: rogertra on May 05, 2013, 02:34:52 PM
Below is a link to a photo of Handley's roundhouse and engine service tracks just after the roundhouse was demolished. There is no sign of any road near the pit and the closest public road can just be made out through the trees on the right hand side in the photo link below. As for "How would you like to be driving down that road, especially at night......" Well, there is no road and as you can tell from the photos, the pit area was reasonably well lit with at least four street light fixtures mounted on poles around the pit, for railroader safety I expect.
http://www.gottrains.com/chessie/handley/yard7ds.jpg (http://www.gottrains.com/chessie/handley/yard7ds.jpg)
J3a and Roger-
I think the issue is that you two are talking about two different turntables, one at Allegany and the other at Handley. The presence of lights and the absence of a road at Handley doesn't mean there were lights at Allegany and no nearby road. I know it's easy to get mixed up with all of the we references but it seems it would make sense not to argue when you are talking about two different locations. Roger, I urge you again not to be so aggressive and quick to argue, especially when you aren't detail oriented. Your defensiveness isn't needed. J3a, thanks for the great turntable shots, including the ones with the obstructions, a fence and a cliff! That would sure slow down a turning locomotive. -- D
Donald.
It's J3a or the C&OHS that has made the error. He claimed his original photos were of Handley and I quote "Photos illustrating overhang on turntables, all courtesy of the Chesapeake & Ohio Historical Society: Handley, W.Va.:" If the photos he posted were not of Handley, then I'm not responsible, am I?
He then went on to describe a "road" close to the tracks and how he wouldn't like to drive that in the dark etc., etc.. He posted photos of locomotives on the turntable at "Handley" to prove his point.
I then posted a photo of Handley showing there was NO road, just a railroad access pathway to the roundhouse tracks
I have ONLY been discussing Handley. Period! I have posted photos of Handley to make my point. If J3a posted photos of some other location then the fault lays with him or the C&OHS, not me. I've not being defensive, that's your (typical) interpretation of my remarks. I've been pointing out facts and details in the photos. Yes, DETAILS based on Handley, those things you claim I'm not oriented to. LOL.
Details are what is important and I've been pointing them out, based on Handley.
If it turns out some of the photos posted by J3a are of Allegany then the fault lays elsewhere, not with me. I have no idea what Allegany looks like.
I'm discussing Handley. Can you understand that? It's called a "detail".
That's OK, Roger just missed this paragraph following the Handley shot:
"This photo is notable is that this engine, 1601, is now on display at the Henry Ford museum; location in this shot and the others that follow is at Alleghany, Va.:"
Happens all the time when we get in a hurry; another reason to take the Atlas advice on some of their structure kits, and "Take your time to get your money's worth."
Anyway, the point was to show that some locomotives would overhang turntables, sometimes by a considerable amount. It might be argued that locomotives were beginning to hit practical limits on length, at least for single-ended units like most steam engines, and this would be another nail in steam's coffin.
I'll also add to Roger's comments about some turntables being "balanced," and that you had to have the locomotive off-center in some cases to get the weight to balance out. This was eliminated with either continuous or hinged turntables. The former was a large, rigid bridge that was supported by the center pivot and both bogies, but had a potential problem in that pit rail vertical alignment was critical to prevent strains in the table and on the "tractors" (turning motors). This was resolved with the "sectional" or "hinged" turntable, which was in two sections joined over the center bearing, in principle much like a two-unit articulated railroad car, but with the allowed movement being vertical instead of horizontal. This allowed for irregularities in the pit rail, and prevented the strain that could occur on a continuous bridge if there were some settling anywhere in the support system. It also had the advantage in that with two shorter spans instead of one long one, the girders and the pit to clear them could be shallower, and thus less expensive to build.
One of the interesting things in watching a locomotive go onto a balanced table would be to watch the approach end drop on its bogie as the locomotive rolled on--and watch the other end jump into the air by the same amount, about an inch or two on the East Broad Top's table at Orbisonia! This would of course settle out as the locomotive was balanced on the table.
P.S.: I've always like Roger's Great Eastern, you don't see Canadian lines done too much here!
Quote from: J3a-614 on May 06, 2013, 12:55:07 AM
That's OK, Roger just missed this paragraph following the Handley shot:
"This photo is notable is that this engine, 1601, is now on display at the Henry Ford museum; location in this shot and the others that follow is at Alleghany, Va.:"
Happens all the time when we get in a hurry; another reason to take the Atlas advice on some of their structure kits, and "Take your time to get your money's worth."
P.S.: I've always like Roger's Great Eastern, you don't see Canadian lines done too much here!
J3A. Thanks for pointing that out. As you can tell, I didn't notice that last bit. :-(
And yes, we both agree that engines could and did overhang the end of turntables by quite a few feet in some cases. Some railways in the UK had two "U" shaped pieces of steel that they'd put over the tender end of the turntable so that engines with a wheel base too long for the turntable bridge would run their tender wheels up onto the "U" shaped extentions. Of course, you can only do that with a UK six wheeled tender, it won't work for a North American tender with trucks. :)
Thanks for the additional comments on balanced and sectional turntables. I didn't go into the details but your comments cover those nicely.
However, this discussion has made me more aware of Handley, a place I'd never heard of. Seems to have been quite the hot spot in the steam and early diesel days. Helper service over a 50 mile(?) grade? Lots of traffic, an ideal place to model I'd think. I checked it out on Google Earth this afternoon and it's now just a wide place on the road map. No railroad yards, nothing, just what appears to be the remains of the concrete coaling tower. Oh how the mighty have fallen.
Thanks for the note on the GER. Sadly, it's been in the dumpster for three years now but a new and hopefully better Great Eastern is slowly rising in my basement.
Best wishes.
Quote from: rogertra on May 06, 2013, 12:39:47 AM
It's J3a or the C&OHS that has made the error.
I'm discussing Handley. Can you understand that? It's called a "detail".
Roger-
You have great information but your defensiveness when none is needed and your utter inability to acknowledge a fault are phenomenal. As for details, Roger, I'm afraid it is you who is really sloppy and careless. Your slipshod presentation and fear of making an error detract greatly from your credibility. Acknowledge the errors, be civil, don't respond to the posts which make you want to act like a bully and pay attention to detail instead of sloughing it off like getting things right isn't really desirable and you'll find your credibility soaring. Give it a try.
Beyond this, I'm giving up on you. Take all of the cheap shots and consistent inaccuracies you want to misspell or misquote. I won't engage with you further. I can recognize a hopeless and helpless to do anything about it case when I see one.
-- Doneldon
Quote from: Doneldon on May 06, 2013, 04:34:11 AM
Quote from: rogertra on May 06, 2013, 12:39:47 AM
It's J3a or the C&OHS that has made the error.
I'm discussing Handley. Can you understand that? It's called a "detail".
Roger-
You have great information but your defensiveness when none is needed and your utter inability to acknowledge a fault are phenomenal. As for details, Roger, I'm afraid it is you who is really sloppy and careless. Your slipshod presentation and fear of making an error detract greatly from your credibility. Acknowledge the errors, be civil, don't respond to the posts which make you want to act like a bully and pay attention to detail instead of sloughing it off like getting things right isn't really desirable and you'll find your credibility soaring. Give it a try.
Beyond this, I'm giving up on you. Take all of the cheap shots and consistent inaccuracies you want to misspell or misquote. I won't engage with you further. I can recognize a hopeless and helpless to do anything about it case when I see one.
-- Doneldon
Donald.
Quit trying to be the absolute font of knowledge on this forum. You are not.
You have tried several times, unsuccessfully, to discredit my knowledge. You were completely wrong when it came to the eccentric rod and it's use in steam. You were wrong in your description of cab forward engines, to name the two most recent. I think this all started in the P-51 Vs Spitfire debate.
Donald, have recently started to attack my posts. It's you who post the cheap shots, as you have done above. You find fault in every post I make.
I have no idea what I did to you to cause this obvious animosity you exhibit towards me so please stick to your promise of " I won't engage with you further." It will be a blessing to all of us.
I wish you well.
Nah, it started before that, at least as early as this past March, when you told him not to mess with any of the wiring in his house. You told him he didn't make any sense and that he should be sure to call an electrician.
This was in the "Braided vs Solid wire for layouts thread".
I love both fighters, but still prefer the Cadillac of the Sky!
Quote from: jbrock27 on May 06, 2013, 01:56:03 PM
Nah, it started before that, at least as early as this past March, when you told him not to mess with any of the wiring in his house. You told him he didn't make any sense and that he should be sure to call an electrician.
This was in the "Braided vs Solid wire for layouts thread".
LMAO......I remember that thread and the sticky "c" key. Funny how that key seemed to work before and after that post.
Doneldon, it's true what people are saying. You seem to feel that a question is just not fully answered until you chime in. Doesn't really matter the topic, you are an expert at it somehow. Then you get upset when someone tries to correct you. It wouldn't be bad if you sounded like you had some real expertise, but you constantly come off sounding like a guy that's memorized every issue of Model Railroader and it's stale advice and warnings.
All one has to do is read back through your 200 plus pages of previous postings and see what I mean.
As for postings....funny....you got 200 or more pages of previous posts....
Roger has less than half of you at 94 pages........I have half of that at 45......and we all joined here around the same time.
More quality, less quantity, maybe Don. See if that helps. Let's see some pics of your modeling as well, please. I don't recall ever seeing any of your work. Roger, Jonathan, B&OFan, Jward, JerryHO, myself, we all show our work. I'd love to see what you are doing.
Sid
Quote from: rogertra on May 05, 2013, 03:32:38 AM
Quote from: Pacific Northern on May 05, 2013, 02:10:09 AM
Here is one of my favourite pictures, the largest of the CPR steamers on a turntable
http://www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/cgi-bin/www2i/.visual/img_med/dir_153/f_06527.gif
Is that at Field BC?
No, it is Revelstoke, Hint is the brace over the turntable, Field did not have one.
Quote from: WoundedBear on May 06, 2013, 02:38:43 PM
LMAO......I remember that thread and the sticky "c" key. Funny how that key seemed to work before and after that post.Sid
Sid-
Yes, the sticky "c" key. Well. it did stick for a while and then it cleared itself up. My granddaughter pounded on my keyboard, messing up both my "b" and "c" keys. I thought I would need to replace my keyboard but the "c" seemed to get back into alignment. The "b" is still problematic but I can't see replacing an expensive keyboard for one comparatively uncommon sticking letter. So I make an effort to hit the "b" a little harder and I use spell check which catches most errors unless the erroneous word is itself a real word.
Your intimation that I wasn't truthful about the "c" key would have been offensive were it not so patently obvious to (almost) everyone that nobody would have a reason to make up something so trivial.
-- D
This goes to all ...
jbrock27 , wounded bear, doneldon and other's including myself.
I recently deleted my account (if you did not notice). Since then I have come to the conclusion, I am here to try and help other's with what I have learned from you guy's, so I reopened my account.
I have noticed a lot of bickering, some which I will say I agree with (like Sid's last post).
We have to all realize we are here to help other's and learn from other's as well.
If you don't agree with a post, either let's not reply or do it through a PM. This does not look good to newcomer's with all this going on. We do not want the reputation that I have heard about of another forum.
We all have an opinion and like a certain part of our anatomy, we all have one.
If you are not happy with this comment, send me a PM.
Your all great modeler's from what I have seen. I would hate to see anyone do what I was thinking. (am I right Sid ? it's not a health issue and I never said that)
Jerry
Bang on the money Jerry.
Sounds like a plan to me.
Sid
Thanks Sid
It means a lot more than you know hearing you agree.
Now let's hope everyone can get on board.
Jerry
Jerry, that is very kind of you to include me in as a great modeler, but I am not. Not like my boy, the Bear. I am pretty much a hack. I have some mechanical skill to get stuff running, but can't take credit as a great modeler. At least not since I built my last model plane, or tank, B-25, P-51 or Sherman, whenever that was.
But I like to learn stuff, especially how stuff works and for the entertainment value, sometimes this place can't be beat ;D.
I think your suggestion is an admirable one and I will do my best to follow the plan. Let's see how it all plays out going forward.
Quote from: Pacific Northern on May 06, 2013, 03:39:40 PM
Quote from: rogertra on May 05, 2013, 03:32:38 AM
Quote from: Pacific Northern on May 05, 2013, 02:10:09 AM
Here is one of my favourite pictures, the largest of the CPR steamers on a turntable
http://www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/cgi-bin/www2i/.visual/img_med/dir_153/f_06527.gif
Is that at Field BC?
No, it is Revelstoke, Hint is the brace over the turntable, Field did not have one.
Other end of the subdivision I believe? Does that count as "close enough" ? :)
Glad everyone is getting back together again, or at least it seems that way. . .:-)
Have to admit we still have a little confusion on C&O locations, though. The base of operations for that 50-mile pusher district was Hinton, W.Va. As Robert noted, such a place would be a real hot spot, especially with all the engine changes that would be going on as "level land" passenger engines such as 4-6-2s and 4-6-4s were exchanged for 4-8-2s, 2-8-4s, and 4-8-4s, while freight trains that came in with a 2-8-2 or 2-8-4 (manifests) or a 2-8-8-2 or 2-6-6-6 (coal trains) went up the hill with a fresh Simon (C&O crews' nickname for the H-7 2-8-8-2, as in "Simple Simon" [simple expansion], and also a reference to Simon Peter of the Bible, whose name meant "Strength") or Allegheny (2-6-6-6, H-8) up front and a sister pushing ahead of the caboose at the rear. Technically, that route didn't need pushers for the whole distance, but it did need them between Hinton and Big Bend Tunnel (site of John Henry's battle with the steam drill in the 1870s), and again from Ronceverte to Alleghany. Rather than have two pusher stations on a short 80-mile division, the road just ran pushers up the whole 50-mile climb. Normal speed was supposed to be 35 mph with a coal train, but some engineers with Alleghenys would go a good deal faster than that, particularly around Alderson, W.Va. (site of the West Virginia and Federal Women's Penitentiary, which for a while had a notable guest named Martha Stewart). Supposedly the Allegheny crews would have their coal trains going so fast through Alderson that the cars would be rocking badly and spilling coal over the sides, some of which wound up on the main street where it crossed the railroad just east of the classic wooden station that's still there.
http://hinton.cohs.org/index.html
Handley is the next division point west of Hinton, and doesn't have its own site like Hinton does as far as I know, but it was still a hot spot in its own right as an assembly yard for several branch lines in the area These branches were mostly served by 2-6-6-2s, which the C&O used about the way other roads used 2-8-0s. It wasn't as wasteful as some would think, given the heavy tonnages off some of these coal branches, and given the usefulness of the C&O's smaller Mallets, which had the overall size and tractive effort of a 2-8-4, but a much shorter rigid wheelbase thanks to low drivers and articulation, an overall smaller profile, and peak power at about 25 mph, which allowed them to run and run well in places other locomotives couldn't go in their search for coal up the hollows.
Between Handley and Hinton was the upper level of the Kanawha River, and beyond Gauley Bridge, the New River Gorge, called the Grand Canyon of the East. Between Hawks Nest and Sewell, the gorge was so narrow and its sides so steep the railroad had to split its double-tracked main line, the eastbound track going up the south bank of the river, and the westbound line coming down the north bank. The town of Thurmond, W.Va. was another branch hub serving five lines, with an engine terminal, freight, and passenger stations all squeezed into a narrow strip between the town (which was built on the hillside above the tracks and coming right down to them) and the river; notable structures including a long, long enginehouse for more 2-6-6-2s (and at one time, at least one Shay), and a skinny, two-story station had the standard architectural details but otherwise looked like nothing else you would see on this road or any other. Other stations or yard offices featured interlocking towers growing out of their roofs, and in pre-CTC days, there were plenty of regular interlocking towers, too.
There were several interesting interchanges there, too. They included the Virginia Railway at Deepwater, W.Va. (which in turn joined, of all things, the New York Central on the other side of the Kanawha River for a trackage rights operation to Charleston), a direct interchange with the NYC (former Kanawha & Michigan) at Gauley Bridge, and the narrow-gauge, Shay-powered Mann's Creek Railroad at Sewell.
There was also, on the north bank of the Kanawha at Deepwater, a private industrial railroad near the NYC-VGN interchange at a place called Alloy. This plant refined silicon rock, purifying it with power from the hydroelectric plants at Kanawha Falls and at Hawks Nest for use in steel making. Power for this industrial line was at least one Baldwin 0-6-0T in steam, and a red GE 70-tonner when I saw it in the 1970s.
And if you go back far enough and go west to the Charleston area, there were interurbans running between Charleston and St. Albans until 1941, and trolleys sharing a B&O bridge across the Kanawha that ran from Charleston to South Charleston. . .fireless steam engines in the chemical plants in South Charleston, owned by the C&O and lettered for it. . .several shortlines in the area, including the Kelly's Creek & Northwestern, the Kelly's Creek Railroad, and the Winnifrede Railroad. . .
I guess it shows I'm a C&O fan, with plenty of interest in the VGN and the former K&M, later the NYC!
I am willing to forgive and forget this rather unpleasant exchange. Hopefully we can all get along better in future and I include Donald in this statement.
J3a-614.
Thanks for the great write up.
I believe Hinton has been suggested in the model press and I think I recall a track plan or a model railroad based on that location.
Handley also seems like a great base for a model railroad. Too bad I've so much invested in my GER.
Kumbaya baby! Kumbaya!
This thread is obviously no longer about locomotives and turntables..... Let's all play nice. ;)