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Discussion Boards => Large => Topic started by: Joe Zullo on May 23, 2013, 02:19:43 PM



Title: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: Joe Zullo on May 23, 2013, 02:19:43 PM
Here's a question for you engine bashers out there.

How can I modify the USELESS dummy coupler on the front of my fleet (4) of 4-6-0s? As they are now, the coupler is too high and too short to mate with the couplers on the rest of my B'man Big Hauler rolling stock. It makes a double header impossible!


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: Loco Bill Canelos on May 23, 2013, 06:41:17 PM
Joe,

It is not too hard to do, but takes a little patience.   I use the body mount coupler in the pocket that is found on the short 1:20.3 cars.   I remove the pilot and use plastic shims to set the coupler at the right level. I fill in the base of the plastic pilot beam and screw the coupler in place using a screw in the center
I then carefully remove just enough material from the pilot so that it just fits around the coupler pocket and reinstall it on the pilot.  


SEE POST BELOW with photos


This is the part I am talking about:

http://estore.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_69_75&products_id=569


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: Joe Zullo on May 23, 2013, 09:29:29 PM
Bill,

Thanks for the info. I would like to see what it looks like, but the link you provided of your conversion is from your desktop and can not be seen by me. Do you have this picture online somewhere where I can see it?


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: Loco Bill Canelos on May 23, 2013, 10:13:05 PM
Sorry  Joe, I will get one up.


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: Loco Bill Canelos on May 23, 2013, 10:48:18 PM
Joe,


SEE NEW POST BELOW WITH PHOTOS
Sorry about that, Try this link it should get you to a folder with 14 to 16 photos not all great quality.  It should give you an Idea of how I did it.   I was going to write a how to article, but can' remember if I did or not.  There are several duplicates, I am not feeling very well so I just gave you the raw photos unedited.  One show the long pilot and another shows the short pilot.


FAILED LINK REMOVED

Let me know if this works, if not I will try again tomorrow.  Hope you will get the idea.  

Bill


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: Joe Zullo on May 23, 2013, 10:58:54 PM
Bill,

After I signed up to dropbox, it says the folder 'Annie' does not exist.

I hope you feel better tomorrow.


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: Loco Bill Canelos on May 24, 2013, 10:56:19 AM
Joe,  

I apologize for running you around, I should have never tried to respond last night.  I feel a bit better this morning and am determined to make things work.  I should never have sent you to dropbox as I use it only for an archive.

I never did do the article I planned to do on this and the photo quality is poor on many of the photos but hopefully will give you the idea on how to do it.  Patience is needed in getting the correct height and I did temporary fittings and measured the amount need to raise or lower the coupler then added or removed some of the plastic as needed.  When OK I epoxied everything together then touched up paint as necessary.  

Hope this helps a little.  Again I am sorry for the run around.


Remove pilot

get body mount coupler in pocket
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh291/sharronbillc/ANNIE%20front%20coupler%20fix/coup1.jpg) (http://s259.photobucket.com/user/sharronbillc/media/ANNIE%20front%20coupler%20fix/coup1.jpg.html)

Modify coupler to allow it to be attached with a screw

(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh291/sharronbillc/ANNIE%20front%20coupler%20fix/coup1a.jpg) (http://s259.photobucket.com/user/sharronbillc/media/ANNIE%20front%20coupler%20fix/coup1a.jpg.html)

cut away part of pilot beam and some of the plastic in front of the 2 screws
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh291/sharronbillc/ANNIE%20front%20coupler%20fix/coup3.jpg) (http://s259.photobucket.com/user/sharronbillc/media/ANNIE%20front%20coupler%20fix/coup3.jpg.html)

fill space in pilot beam and build up plastic on the pilot beam and drill hole for modified coupler box
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh291/sharronbillc/ANNIE%20front%20coupler%20fix/coup4.jpg) (http://s259.photobucket.com/user/sharronbillc/media/ANNIE%20front%20coupler%20fix/coup4.jpg.html)

Use razor saw and modify the pilot to fit around coupler box
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh291/sharronbillc/ANNIE%20front%20coupler%20fix/coup5.jpg) (http://s259.photobucket.com/user/sharronbillc/media/ANNIE%20front%20coupler%20fix/coup5.jpg.html)

(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh291/sharronbillc/ANNIE%20front%20coupler%20fix/coup6.jpg) (http://s259.photobucket.com/user/sharronbillc/media/ANNIE%20front%20coupler%20fix/coup6.jpg.html)

Coupler and pilot are mounted in place note filler in space between pilot beam and the two screws
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh291/sharronbillc/ANNIE%20front%20coupler%20fix/coup6a.jpg) (http://s259.photobucket.com/user/sharronbillc/media/ANNIE%20front%20coupler%20fix/coup6a.jpg.html)

close up of modified coupler on short pilot
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh291/sharronbillc/ANNIE%20front%20coupler%20fix/Coup7.jpg) (http://s259.photobucket.com/user/sharronbillc/media/ANNIE%20front%20coupler%20fix/Coup7.jpg.html)

overall view
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh291/sharronbillc/ANNIE%20front%20coupler%20fix/coup8.jpg) (http://s259.photobucket.com/user/sharronbillc/media/ANNIE%20front%20coupler%20fix/coup8.jpg.html)

This can be done on the long pilot as well but needs to be further out to maintain clearance.

I am sure there are better ways to do it, but this is what I did.

Bill


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: Joe Zullo on May 24, 2013, 03:02:52 PM
Bill,

Thanks for your efforts. I hope you are feeling better.
I have to ask, with the coupler being that far out, what is the minimum radius or diameter that this arraignment allows before it derails the car it is coupled to, or the pilot truck? It seems like it would only work on a straight track. I have 10 foot and 8 foot curves to worry about, and R1 switches.


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: Loco Bill Canelos on May 24, 2013, 09:40:40 PM
Joe thanks,definitely getting better.  My minimum diameter is 10 feet.  I have never had a pilot truck derailment due to the coupler project. I have never had a problem doubleheading on my 10 foot curves.  I have never run a long train with the locomotive running in reverse for any great distance, but I have run that way while switching without problems.  I am not sure how it would work on 8 foot.   If I am doing switching with the front of the locomotive, it also seems ok, but again I use only Aristo 10 foot wide switches.   I use 2 kinds of couplers, Bachmann and USA Trains knuckles, because they seem to mate together very well and I do not have uncoupling problems while running, unless I run over a piece of debris in the middle of the track which sometimes triggers uncoupling.  They seem to swing really well, but again I do not have any LGB R1  or other brands 8 foot track.  The body mounted coupler has a very wide swing, better than the standard Bachamnn knuckles.

You can gain a little more space by moving the coupler box back further right up to the screws and also by removing the back wall of the coupler box. 

All I can recommend at this time is to try it, I thought I had some Bachmann Set track I could try and see what happens but if I do I can't find it.

If you do go ahead with the project then let us know how it works out on the tighter curves.

Bill


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: Dave on May 25, 2013, 07:21:44 PM
Hi Joe, I am in the process of building a Garrett, using two 4-6-0- Bachmann Chassis, and have fitted Knuckles to the front of each chassis. You will need plenty of sideways movement which means removing enough of the cow catcher to allow for that. My minimum diameter curves are 8ft and I found that you will need to remove the centering  piece of plastic rod that is underneath the coupler shank, on both your Loco and first car that is coupled to the Loco. This allows for plenty of coupler swing, and you will need it.        I very much doubt that you can negotiate curves of less than 8ft diameter and reverse curves are definitley out unless there is a short transition straight between them, of at least 1ft.
         Cheers
            Dave
            New Zealand


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: Loco Bill Canelos on May 26, 2013, 10:25:58 PM
Joe, I went out and tested it with loco's running backwards through switches with the cars coupled to the pilot coupler, again 10 Foot Diameter curves and Aristo Wide Radius switches unmodified with original frog.  The couplers on the tenders and cars were not modified in any way.  No derailments.  I will try to video it.  I definitely feel there will be a problem with anything less than 10 foot diameter curves without some changes such as those mentioned by Dave.

The Garrett he is building will have double trouble ;D ::) ;D with the couplers on both pilots!!  At least with the tender loco's you have the ability to to snake through the switches.  With the pivot on the Garrett it makes for a stiff run through the switches. I can't wait to see photos of Dave project.   

Bill


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: Loco Bill Canelos on May 26, 2013, 10:33:17 PM
Forgot to mention it, but some of you out there must have a way you installed front couplers on 4-6-0's that is different than mine or Dave's.  I would love to see other ways of doing it!!!!!


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: Barry BBT on May 27, 2013, 06:30:52 PM
Need to address the double-heading of 4-6-0s.  I convert all 4-6-0 pilots to an arm rather than leave them in the crescent slot.  That is mentioned to introduce the extension to the arm which proceeds forward, drops down below the cowcatcher and then upwards to finally be bent to engage the bottom of the gear box of another coupler at the proper height to engage the talgo coupler. 

The reason for this is the great arc that the pilot beam goes in, in a corner/turn.  The center of the pilot (where the coupler is) is outside of the outside rail.

The original pilot coupler location is perfect for body mounted couplers on freight cars.  Bachmann couplers can be body mounted, but usually we go for KaDees.

Barry
 


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: Loco Bill Canelos on May 27, 2013, 10:35:45 PM
Rained heavy here so I made a video of the doubleheaded Annies going thru switches and crossovers to give some idea about how my method works with 10 ft diameter track.  Earlier I said it would never work, but looking at what was happening while I made the video, I am thinking it might just work for 8 foot diameter. There was a little swing left in the body mounted coupler as it went through.  The switches are Aristo wide radius switches, but are the old ones with the high flange way.  I have not yet modified them with the new frogs. There are no modifications to the cars or tender couplers.

The video is not meant to be realistic in any way and I go thru switches fairly fast in some cases just to see what would happen.   The video is just under three minutes and will give you an idea how my modification works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaKoGZwCPpc

Bill


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: GG1onFordsDTandI on May 31, 2013, 03:22:14 AM
The video is not meant to be realistic in any way and I go thru switches fairly fast in some cases just to see what would happen.   The video is just under three minutes and will give you an idea how my modification works.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaKoGZwCPpc      -Bill
Bill, nice mod, nice video. I checked out your other YT videos too. Wow! Inspiring. If you get bored enough, I think a slow and in-depth walk-around video of your layout(s), both indoor & out, finished or not, posted in gen. discuss would be something everybody would not only enjoy, but benefit and learn from too. ;) .........................................Please? ;D


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: Loco Bill Canelos on May 31, 2013, 11:30:39 AM
I do want to do more videos, but the time involved keeps getting in the way, I do some with my son in Denver.

Here is a link to movies He or I made of his layout:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMN1B_sENBA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7Y5fJGrJ3k

Here is a new one we did with 2 units on the front and two mid train with me controlling the lead units and him controlling the mid train units  41 cars I think.   the train in full dynamic brakes was pretty neat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXkz9PRJ7Q0

He also is big in Bachmann 1:20.3 and AMS but only filmed one short runby.  We did a lot more video but it is raw and he has not had time due to his job to get more posted.

I will try to get more up as summer goes on.  I appreciate your nice comments!

Bill


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: Joe Zullo on June 01, 2013, 09:51:03 AM
Bill,

Thank you for the videos. They inspired me to give it a try last night, so I modified one of my 4-6-0's with a working and lowered coupler. I took a couple of locos and 4 coaches out to the RR this morning for a test run. It works fine on my 10' diameter main line. The bad news is, it is a train wreck (pun intended) trying to get through an R1 turnout to my 8' diameter loop. I think I'll restrict it to a main line operation only. Thanks for all your help. Here is a video I made this AM to show you it works....

http://youtu.be/93l-nYDjz2A


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: GG1onFordsDTandI on June 01, 2013, 06:27:15 PM
Thanks Bill ;D The snow plow is too cool 8) Found my way to some other videos of that "layout" too. I think I may have seen them before but was loving seeing them again. I have been dabbling in other scales lately but not liking them as much. My norm is 3r O & 0-27 PW, plus some new stuff. The G's look funner than the others, not to mention involving the great outdoors. Congratulations! :D You have me looking out for a yard sale special in G now. Z,N,HO,S, all that little stuff is just too............................
....... little :-\.
You should start a tour-able photobucket account, webpage, or something. Somewhere to store them all in one place Youtube organizing can be kinda sketchy for finding stuff ???. Just an idea ;).
 
Thanks again for taking time and sharing Bill.
and thank you Joe for allowing the "semi thread hijacking" :-*


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: Loco Bill Canelos on June 01, 2013, 07:33:06 PM
Joe, nice video, I loved the music, The train was great too.  Glad the front coupler worked out.   It looked pretty darn good to me.  I was wondering if it would make it around the 8 foot main line if it did not have to go thru the R1 switches.  If you get the chance try it and let us know.

Bill

GG1onFordsDTandI,

 glad you enjoyed the videos.  Get into large scale and you will never go back 8) ;D :P

Bill


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: Joe Zullo on June 02, 2013, 09:33:36 AM
Bill,

Got out early this AM to try the 4-6-0 lashup on my 8' diameter curves. It works! Still could not get through my R1 turnouts even with a heavily weighted tender on the lead loco going forward or reverse. There is just too much swing on that trailing locos front coupler.


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: Loco Bill Canelos on June 02, 2013, 10:59:13 AM
Thanks Joe,

Thanks to you we now know it works on 8 foot diameter, but not thru R1 switches.  Too bad you don't have 10 foot dia wide radius switches at least between the inner and outer loop.  I looked back at your video, but really could not see your inner to out switches, so I could not tell if you could substitute the wide radius switches very easily.  I suspect it would work though.   

I noticed in your video that you have a R1 leading to a siding, do you think it would it go thru just the one switch if the track after the switch was all straight?   I suspect no, but I was surprised it made it around the eight foot dia main.

In any case doubleheading was a mainline operation on most railroads anyway.  A train would have the second loco at the helper station back on to the front of the train.


Title: Re: Front Coupler on 4-6-0
Post by: Joe Zullo on June 02, 2013, 12:07:20 PM
Bill,

I tried going into and out of the siding. No joy. The rear truck of the lead loco tender is derailed as the front of the rear loco enters the divergent rails. It's just too sharp a turn going through an R1 turnout.