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Discussion Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: aramirez87120 on June 15, 2013, 02:23:40 PM

Title: Speed Controller
Post by: aramirez87120 on June 15, 2013, 02:23:40 PM
Hello,

We have an HO scale train set and have been having issues with our speed controller burning out.  We bought a second one and within a few weeks of very light use it burned out as well.  I want buy a third, but before I do, I want to see if anyone had any thoughts to why this keeps happening?

Thank you in advance for any help you may be able to provide.
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: JerryB on June 15, 2013, 02:38:24 PM
You need to tell us what you mean by "burning out."

Bachmann power packs have an internal 'circuit breaker' that trips on overload, then automatically resets a short time after the electrical overload is removed. Is this breaker tripping? Is it not resetting?

Have you checked for a short circuit (or at least a low resistance path) across the track? A really cheap (less than $10) volt-ohm meter from Harbor Freight will prove to be a useful tool in troubleshooting your trains.

Additionally, the power packs that come with starter sets are usually pretty marginal. They supply just enough power to run the set they are packaged with. After the breaker has tripped a few times, it will start tripping at lower and lower outputs. Are you running more than the engine and train that came with the set? If so, you probably need a larger power pack.

The above are just some basics. If you give us more information, we can probably give you more focused help.

Happy RRing,

Jerry
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: aramirez87120 on June 15, 2013, 03:07:24 PM
Thank you Jerry.  We are using the train with the cars that came in the set.  We bought additional rails and set the train up on shelf that runs around the roof of my sons room.  The track is clear with no obstructions or possible shorts.  The controller gets extremely hot...almost too hot to handle and gives off that burning circuit smell.  That's usually when we notice something is wrong and shut it down.  After we shut it down and it cools it will operate but the train runs slow and after a few tries slows to a crawl at best and usually will go only in one direction.  If I am near the train, I can hear it get power, but the movement is minimal.  I am not sure if the internal breaker switches and I do not see any type of reset button on the controller.

Thank you again for your help.
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: richg on June 15, 2013, 05:44:51 PM
Sound like a fairly low resistance on the layout  but mot a dead short that is loading down the controller.

With nothing on the track, use an ohm meter and see what the resistance is. With  digital ohm meter, the display should show max resistance. If there is some low resistance, the meter will show you. With a pointer type meter, that pointer should not move if there is no short or shoe low resistance on the layout.

If there is enough track, a short way down the track will be seen as a low resistance and not trip the circuit breaker.

I would suggest trying a controller with nothing on the track and see if it does get warm. It should not but it sounds like you do not have a usable controller right now.

With no controller, use a 9 volt battery and a couple pieces if wire and touch the rails connections with the lights out in the room. If you see a little spark, there is a short or heavy load somewhere.
With HO track, probably no wires needed. Use the battery terminals. Crude trouble shooting but it does work sometimes if no electronics are part of the test.

Rich
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: phillyreading on June 15, 2013, 06:22:29 PM
Along with what Rich says, measure the rails with an ohm meter setting and see if both rails give any reading othe then an open circuit. You may have to remove some tracks and see if the problem continues or not. Sometimes a problem happens with using switches or doing a figuire 8.

Lee F.
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: Doneldon on June 15, 2013, 06:29:56 PM
ara-

Once you have done the testing suggested by the previous posters, check your existing controllers to see if they now work. That will be the case if they merely shut down due to popping their circuit breakers, which I suspect is the case. If they don't, and you have removed any short or high resistance item from your circuitry, check your LHS or eBay for a power pack (if HO) or transformer from Model Rectifier Corporation. Their products are well made and reliable. Good luck!
                                                                                                             -- D
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: aramirez87120 on June 16, 2013, 08:36:28 PM
Thank you all for the help.  I am going to pick up an ohm meter in the coming days and do the suggested tests.  I will keep you posted.
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: jbrock27 on June 17, 2013, 07:34:12 AM
aramirez is this a DC or DCC power source you are referring to?
If DC, I 2nd Doneldon's suggestion of an MRC power pack.
Re: multi meters-I saw SEARS had CRAFTSMMAN meters for sale during Father's Day for about $16.00. I do see them on sale all the time.  JerryB's suggestion to get a meter is excellent as it will have many uses for the hobby as well as other household things.  But in my experience, I have been disappointed with anything mechanical or electrical from HARBOR FREIGHT outside of zip ties or stick on weights.  If it were me, I would spend a few dollars more and get a quality meter from a store like SEARS, HOME DEPOT, LOWE'S or TRUE VALUE (hardware store) that will last a long time and be reliable.   
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: AGSB on June 17, 2013, 10:36:30 AM
You state that the track runs around the room. How long a track are you running? Are you using a feeder buss with connections to the track every 3 to 5 feet? Have you soldered the track connections? The length of track may be just too long for the transformer you are using and is overheating when trying to supply the amperage required by the engine if you haven't done the proper set up.
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: richg on June 17, 2013, 10:38:57 AM
Quote from: AGSB on June 17, 2013, 10:36:30 AM
You state that the track runs around the room. How long a track are you running? Are you using a feeder buss with connections to the track every 3 to 5 feet? Have you soldered the track connections? The length of track may be just too long for the transformer you are using and is overheating when trying to supply the amperage required by the engine if you haven't done the proper set up.

There is no way too long a track will burn out a power pack.

A low resistance load or short will burn out a power pack.

Rich
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: richg on June 17, 2013, 10:41:28 AM
The below meter is excellent. I have had three for sometime. These meters are made in China by probably one company and sold in the USA by different suppliers. Sometimes the case has a different color or slightly different design.
The only weak link you might say is the fuse if the meter is mis-used. But most meters have a fuse to protect the electronics. I bought a five pack of spare fuses at Radio Shack.
I have an expensive meter but rarely ever use it.

http://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-multimeter-98025.html

Useful links for testing with a meter.

http://www.trainelectronics.com/Meter_Workshop/index.htm

http://www.trainelectronics.com/Meter_HF/index.htm

These meters read about 13.6 VAC when checking a DCC controller.

Others in our club use these meters.

Rich.
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: Doneldon on June 17, 2013, 05:11:17 PM
I also recommend the inexpensive (or often free with a coupon) meters from Harbor Freight. We aren't working on a space
shot here so we don't require equisite meters and perfect accuracy. The cheap meters will get the job done and we can toss
them out if they break or burn up.
                                                       -- D
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: ChrisS on June 17, 2013, 10:10:11 PM
Is it possible that the track is hooked up to accessory terminals?
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: utdave on June 17, 2013, 10:57:09 PM
if it has screw terminals  .   has dc power to track and a ac accessory  might also have a small wire touching across  med resistance short .   also with the harbor freight  volt meter you can check and see how many amps you are pulling .    most power packs are around 1 amp for dc train sets   if you run close to that you have maxed out the transformer .    some power packs are bigger  and smaller you have to check and see what the amp rating is .     DAve
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: Joe323 on June 18, 2013, 11:25:48 AM
It has been my experience with train set power packs that you cannot run forever they will overheat and shut down as a protection.  I second the idea of replacing it with an MRC power pack.
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: jward on June 18, 2013, 08:32:05 PM
Quote from: AGSB on June 17, 2013, 10:36:30 AM
You state that the track runs around the room. How long a track are you running? Are you using a feeder buss with connections to the track every 3 to 5 feet? Have you soldered the track connections? The length of track may be just too long for the transformer you are using and is overheating when trying to supply the amperage required by the engine if you haven't done the proper set up.

perhaps a quick lesson on electrical theory is in order here. You stated that the length of the track would increase the current draw on the power supply. ohm's law, the foundation of electrical theory, say just the opposite. here's why:

assuming only one set of feeders to the track, the length of the track would increase resistance in the circuit. according to ohm's law, current (amps) equals the voltage divided by the resistance. thus, lengthening the track decreases the amperage draw on the power supply. it can also cause the locomotive to slow noticeably the further away from the feeders it gets.

one needs to be very careful giving electrical advice.    saying  the wrong thing can have disasterous consequences for those who follow the wrong advice.    at best, bad advice distracts from actually solving the problem at hand.

with regards to the original poster, is your setup dc or dcc? they are two completely different control systems, and need to be approached differently.

the overheating of the controller indicates that something is drawing way too much current.. the burning smell also indicates this.

do you have a second locomotive? if so does it also overheat the controller? can you test your locomotive on another layout? if so, does it also cause that controller to overheat? does the controller overheat when the locomotive is not on the track?   does it overheat when completely disconnected from the track?


let us know the answers to these questions, and we'll have a pretty good idea where to look for the problem.
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: aramirez87120 on June 29, 2013, 05:14:18 PM
 Hello,

Thank you all again for all your expertise. 

I have a DC Set Up.  I do not have a second locomotive.  I am trying to find a local store to test my locomotive on (have not done this yet). Does not seem to over heat when the locomotive is not on the track.  I checked the track for resistance and did not find any.  Tested the track voltage and it read a maximum 12V with the directional switch to forward and 7 volts with it backward.  With the switch forward the locomotive moved very slow.

I did realize that one of the wall adaptors was faulty, so I replaced that with a new one before conducting these test.  I am leaning towards the idea that I have a bad locomotive now.  Thoughts?

Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: rogertra on June 29, 2013, 07:14:36 PM
Brand name and model of your "speed controller" would be very helpful.

Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: aramirez87120 on June 29, 2013, 09:17:52 PM
Bachmann item No. 46605A
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: jward on June 29, 2013, 09:27:56 PM
are those voltage readings with no locomotive or cars on the track? if so, the voltage readings should be about 12v in both directions at full throttle, with nothing on the track, you effectively have an open circuit, and your resistance readings between the rails should be as high as the meter can read, approaching infinity. if you get different reading than that, then something is shorted somewhere.

note: do the resistance reading with the controller disconnected from the track so you aren't reading the internal resistance of the controller itself.

the locomotive itself, assuming ut is HO guage, can be tested with a 9 v battery touched to the wheels.
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: rogertra on June 29, 2013, 09:39:01 PM
Quote from: aramirez87120 on June 29, 2013, 09:17:52 PM
Bachmann item No. 46605A

That's part of the problem.  It's cheap.  :(

Not owning one and just going by photos on line, it appears that the wires going to the track come from the throttle via a 1/8 mini stereo cable.  i.e., two conductors terminating at the throttle in a male 1/8 mini stereo plug.  Dunno how that connects to the track as I do not use set track.

Try replacing the cable, you could have a short in the 1/8 mini connector, it's not unknown. Don't worry about the cost of the new cable, they're not expensive but do purchase one from a reputable audio store, not your local dollar store outlet.



Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: Joe Satnik on June 30, 2013, 10:02:09 AM
Dear aramirez87120,

I understand the internal circuitry of that controller fairly well.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned "LUBRICATION", or lack thereof,

which slowly increased the current draw enough to overstress and burn out controller components,

but not quickly enough to trip the internal circuit breaker before damage occurred.   

Sorry, but you have burned out the forward direction circuitry in your controller. 

An electrical technician or engineer could replace the burned out (1970's style through hole) components.

Not sure that would be cost effective, though, given auction site prices.   

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik





Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: jward on June 30, 2013, 04:20:22 PM
joe, I am assuming you are talking about lubrication of the rheostat, with tv tuner cleaner?

the only problem with that theory is that the op has stated these problems are developing after a couple weeks in service. in this case, lubrication would probably not be the problem.
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: Joe Satnik on July 01, 2013, 02:00:08 AM
Sorry I was unclear.

Clean and lube the locomotive periodically and check that the rest of the cars roll freely.

Increased drag (friction) causes the motor to draw more current from from the power pack.

There should be some clean and lube instructions somewhere, including which lubes to use and how often.   

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: jbrock27 on July 01, 2013, 11:43:55 AM
Jeff is right, the resistance measured between the rails (make sure measured with power off) should be near infinite.
I agree with Roger, this controller you have is inferior.  In the end, if you have to obtain a new one, go with something from MRC and dump this one.
I agree with Joe S. about point of cost effectiveness.

aramirez8712-Have you taken meter measurements from the DC contacts on controller itself, with the wires disconnected that got to the track?  Checking the voltage in forward and then in reverse?

PS-SEARS recently had CRAFTSMAN meters on sale for $11.99-a good buy in my book!
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: jbrock27 on July 01, 2013, 10:46:25 PM
...Actually check that, you may want to save the B'mann controller to make use of the AC terminals, as long as they check out ok on your meter for what they are rated for.  Good for hooking up to switch machines and lights and I am sure other AC driven items.
Title: Re: Speed Controller
Post by: Joe Satnik on July 02, 2013, 01:44:26 PM
One thing nice about the controller head is that it is so light that it takes very little postage to ship (for sales delivery or repairs).

Throw it in a small padded envelope and off it goes. 

This is assuming your wall-wart adapter (transformer) is still in good shape, and stays home, awaiting a new or repaired controller head. 

If red LED on the controller glows brightly and steadily, it is likely that the transformer is still OK.   

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik