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Discussion Boards => HO => Topic started by: cmsluss on August 09, 2013, 08:54:39 AM



Title: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: cmsluss on August 09, 2013, 08:54:39 AM
I purchased some IHC (Mehano) covered hoppers to make a grain train.  I've noticed this train strains even my best locomotives.  It even feels "heavy" to push/pull by hand.  The are no visible defects to the trucks or wheels.  Why would the "drag" on these cars be greater than on any other 50" foot HO car?

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

Thanks much!


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jonathan on August 09, 2013, 09:42:57 AM
Turn the cars over and spin the wheels with your fingers.  Each wheelset should spin freely for a minimum of 6 seconds.  If they do not, that is your problem.

You can replace the wheelsets and/or turn the inside of the journals.  This can be done with a truck tuner (the best option, but you have to find and buy the tuner).

OR, you can use a pin vice with a small bit.  Somewhere in the #70 range should work.  Gently perform a few turns with the bit, in each journal.  Then replace the wheels and spin them.  Repeat this until the wheels turn freely.  I have done this in a pinch, when a truck tuner was unavailable.

My favorite wheel replacements are the intermountain 33" wheels.  However, I have used the Bachmann, Athearn and Atlas wheels with success as well.  Really it depends on the width and shape of the truck journals. 

The size and shape of truck journals are not universal, unfortunately.  A little experimentation is necessary.

Since IHC is no longer around, I do not know if these cars come with plastic or metal wheels.

Regards,

Jonathan


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Len on August 09, 2013, 11:05:16 AM
One word of warning...if the trucks are metal, do not use a truck tuner on them. You'll end up ruining the cutting edge of the tuner. Found out the hard way.

Sometimes it's just dust and critter hair in the journal causing the problem. Removing the wheels, cleaning off the axles, and giving the journal a shot of graphite often clears the problem up.

Len


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: sd24b on August 09, 2013, 02:45:20 PM
I purchased some IHC (Mehano) covered hoppers to make a grain train.  I've noticed this train strains even my best locomotives.  It even feels "heavy" to push/pull by hand.  The are no visible defects to the trucks or wheels.  Why would the "drag" on these cars be greater than on any other 50" foot HO car?

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

Thanks much!
i have some old AHM grain hoppers that i replaced the trucks with Athearn's and used metal wheels.  these cars are getting long in tooth (1973) but roll as well as my new ones Phil


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: electrical whiz kid on August 21, 2013, 08:02:07 PM
Hi;
Any rolling stock I acquire gets a thorough once-over with my good ol' hawk (ish) eye.  Plastic truck
assemblies, as previously stated, should get a reaming out with that tune-up tool-if you don't have one, look around for one, possibly on Micro-Mark, then change the wheels to metal wheel-sets-this is a given in my shop.  Don't want plastic garbage on the rails.  Before I re-assemble the truck to the
under-frame, it gets a further testing for rolling qualities, but more importantly, for square-ness on the track.  If they don't sit squarely on the track, you will be plagued by gremlins...at the most inopportune of times...(your wife or girlfriend will giggle at you ...while you "pray"...)
Next, if this works out OK, I assemble to body, and try it that way, looking for the same result.   If that is OK, and I the cars don't have my preference of couplers, I install them, and check them out on the good ol' Kadee coupler gauge.  This should kick out about 99% of the bugaboos that plague "the nut in the basement".  Happy Motoring...
Rich C.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Doneldon on August 21, 2013, 11:31:36 PM
i have some old AHM grain hoppers that i replaced the trucks with Athearn's and used metal wheels.  these cars are getting long in tooth (1973) but roll as well as my new ones Phil

Phil-

You're showing us that even modestly-priced trains can run well and long if assembled carefully and maintained appropriately.
I have some Athearn cars which are even older than yours and they run just fine. It's true that their details leave a little to be
desired compared to today's models, but that's not noticeable when the trains are running down the track.

                                                                                                                                                                 -- D


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: CNE Runner on August 22, 2013, 10:24:59 AM
I have one or two Ulrich cars from the late 1950s that run well. Length of successful ownership is a function of maintenance and not age.

Not a car appears on my layout until I use my trusty Micro Mark Wheel Tuner (assuming the bolsters are plastic), the plastic wheelsets are replaced by metal units, coupler/pin height is checked with a Kadee gauge, wheel gauge is checked by an appropriate NMRA gauge AND the car is weighed. The NMRA publishes a chart for proper car weights (check their website).  [I use automobile wheel weights (available in several 'weights') from Harbor Freight...these are adhesive backed for easy placement.] As far as the weighing is concerned, I purchased a very inexpensive, battery operated kitchen scale at Harbor Freight...which is plenty good enough for our purposes. This sounds like a long procedure; but it isn't and will result in 'trouble-free' running.

 I also keep a 3" x 5" card on each car which lists: car type, car ID number, railroad name, AAR car class ID, specifics regarding that particular car (type/brand of couplers, type of wheelsets, weathering...whatever) and (at the bottom of the card front) date acquired, manufacturer, item number, where acquired and price. On the reverse of the card I keep any pertinent maintenance records (car weight/date, when I checked the coupler/pin height and anyother items. An inexpensive card catalog box keeps everything in order: I have a separate divider for each car type (refrigerated, box, flat, etc.) and file the aforementioned cards accordingly.

Just a suggestion,
Ray


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Doneldon on August 22, 2013, 05:54:11 PM
Ray-

Outstanding. I do the exact same routine with all of my new rolling stock and, combined with regular maintenance and good
records, I rarely have an on-layout mishap caused by equipment failure. (Operator failure is another thing all together.)
I use whatever I can find for weight -- surplus heavy old nuts and bolts or pennies if there's no chunky hardware.

I keep a running record of any problems which do occur by both equipment involved and place on the railroad. This helps me
identify potential problems before they become major and it also saves a good deal of diagnostic time. This system almost always
directs my attention to the component which needs work, whether it's a turnout, coupler, truck, out-of-gauge track or whatever.

By the way, I agree with you whole heartedly that the age of equipment is immaterial as long as it is serviced appropriately. Older
models may not have the excellent detail found on most modern models, but they can and do run just as well.

                                                                                                                                                                     -- D


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: CNE Runner on August 23, 2013, 10:30:59 AM
See Don?..great minds think alike.

Viewing all the posts in this thread, perhaps you can see the wisdom of looking at those 'cheapy' cars under the vendor's table at train shows. I have picked up some really nice cars for $1 that (with a little 'tweaking' and maintenance) became great additions to the 'fleet'. As Don said, the older cars don't have the detail of the newer 'crop'...but they can be just as reliable.

Another suggestion on adding weight to rolling stock concerns tank cars: If (and I say 'if' because you usually can't get the tank ends open without causing damage) you can get one end off a tank car, pennies make a great weight source. They are round and can easily be glued together - as well as glued into the tank cylinder. With your complete car on the scale, start adding pennies until the recommended NMRA car weigh is achieved (slightly below the recommended car weight as the glue will add some weight). [If this is an uncompleted kit, do this step BEFORE gluing on the tank ends.] If you can't get the tank ends off without causing damage, you are probably out of luck as there is nowhere to add weight out of sight on this particular type of car.

Happy model railroading,
Ray


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on August 23, 2013, 11:26:06 AM
I have purchased IHC rolling stock in the past as the details were decent enough to satisfy me.  Be wary though, some IHC rolling stock are made like the later TYCO "brown box" stuff in that the step rails can be molded solid, other IHC rolling stock have step rails molded in the normal fashion.   Make sure you look close before buying.
I've always believed that for the price, Athearn Blue Box rolling stock have great details and running properties.  The Bachmann Silver Series Rolling stock is a great value as well, if found for a good price.  Never had luck at the $1 bin; I will have to keep looking.  One needs to include the cost of admission to the train show, plus cost of gas, in purchases at train shows, in my view.

Also, when referring to "plastic", I think it should be clarified there is a difference between Delrin wheels and axles as opposed to ABS plastic wheels and axles.  Delrin is much better, although with most ABS wheels I have that I have looked through, roll fine.  A few years ago, Mr. Banner posted some interesting observations on wheels and trucks made of varying materials.

Ray and Doc, remember the opening up tank car discussion from about a year or so ago?  I have an AHM single dome tanker I will be attempting to "open up" in the near future.  Wish me luck!

Any one have any experience or opinions on Walthers rolling stock?  For example, Trainline or Ready to Run editions?
Thank you.

PS-Ray, I used spell check to the best of my abilities.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on August 23, 2013, 12:13:13 PM
Forgot to add, that IHC stuff comes with plastic wheels, axles and trucks, talgo style, with horn hook couplers.  The trucks are secured w/o a pin, unlike a lot of AHM stuff and are secured in the same way most of the last TYCO and old Bachmann and old LifeLess rolling stock was, with those 2 "nubs" that push into a hole in the bolster.  The trucks can be pried off with small screwdriver.  Most of the time, both or one of the nubs breaks off, which I do not view as a loss, as I would prefer to replace that style and type of truck anyway.  I do not believe the "plastic" is Delrin, but cannot say for sure.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Doneldon on August 23, 2013, 10:55:43 PM
Ray and jb-

Yes, the dollar bins at train shows can yield the basis for a well-running model, but only if we'd be going to the train show anyway. (Like that's a question?) Not so with cruddy cars on eBay. By the time you add the cost of shipping to the new wheels (maybe trucks) and couplers they aren't such a good deal.

I use pennies for weight also. They're actually much cheaper than lead weights.

Now here's an idea for weighting tank cars (maybe a dumb one). Once a tank car is assembled, it's usually very hard to get access to the inside without doing significant cosmetic damage to the car. However, what if we cut a slot in the bottom of the tank, squirted some plastic-safe caulk or other goopy adhesive inside, spread it around with a bent wire and then put pennies through the slot? I understand that it might not be possible to get the weight spread evenly, but would that be a real problem, or just  problem in theory? I haven't tried this myself yet, but I plan to do it as soon as an underweight tank car shows up on the layout. Well, in the train room.

                                                                                                                                                       -- D


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: GG1onFordsDTandI on August 24, 2013, 12:21:38 AM
what if we cut a slot in the bottom of the tank, squirted some plastic-safe caulk or other goopy adhesive inside, spread it around with a bent wire and then put pennies through the slot? I understand that it might not be possible to get the weight spread evenly, but would that be a real problem
The slot might work but I think some non hardening substances will eventually leak back out. How about using one Penny,(Penny, Penny) ( :D Sheldon rules) at a time? Each coated with glue, then let to dry before the next is added. By alternating which side the pen.. >:(...
... ::).. coin falls to you could even it out better. I think keeping the slot clear would be the biggest challenge.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Doneldon on August 24, 2013, 01:00:42 AM
GG1-

I wasn't suggesting something which would never cure or dry, just something with a heavy enough body that it could be pushed
around inside of the car and remain tacky (I believe goopy is the technical term) until all of the pennies were inserted. Both
caulk and construction adhesive meet these criteria.
                                                                                  -- D


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: GG1onFordsDTandI on August 24, 2013, 03:06:44 AM
GG1-
I wasn't suggesting something which would never cure or dry, just something with a heavy enough body that it could be pushed
around inside of the car and remain tacky (I believe goopy is the technical term) until all of the pennies were inserted. Both
caulk and construction adhesive meet these criteria.
               -- D

Sorry, I associated goopy with non curing products Ive experimented with in the past, hylomar and other similar materials. If it works more power to ya! But I still think getting caulk or construction adhesive into it will be a challenge unless you use a professional caulkers gun with a metal tip pounded flat.(I also live with a pro-caulker who uses a very fluid caulk I have issues with. He uses it without incident)  Also the less "goopy" cement inside before hand will allow the coin to sit lower in the tank with little effort. How about filling with coins first then pumping in some "goo" ? Any how good luck Don.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on August 24, 2013, 08:00:11 AM
The two tricks here are: 1) putting a substance in the car that is liquid enough to flow in, but will then 2) harden
I like the idea of coming from the underside, but to figure out how to seal the hole back up.  ??

On occasion, I have weighted small, plastic fishing lures by drilling a small hole in the bottom, but in the shape of "crater".  This way, I can put some 2 part epoxy over the hole and it won't all just fall in, bc it can stick to the sides of the "crater".  I then cover it with a piece of scotch tape to get it to dry somewhat smooth, until it is dried. 
Now, for the stuff on the inside of the car.  I would imagine working on the car, it would be upside down.  Would putting white glue that a friend of mine loves to use for everything, into the hole, then adding something like small bird-shot or BBs, swishing the car around so the beads and glue mix together and then letting it dry, albeit upside down work?  Or would a problem be created if the weight was adhered to the top of the tank instead of the bottom?  If that were the case, you could probably temporarily seal the hole in the bottom with electrical tape, scotch tape or packing tape, turn the car right side up to dry and then see if you needed to do anything more with sealing the hole in the bottom.

Doc, regarding Ebay.  I agree that yes, some, no alot, of cars can be junk.  But you can also find some plums if willing to search.  And I always consider shipping fees in the total price.  If too high, I walk away-there is always more.  The way I look at it, you either spend for postage or gas those are the 2 choices.  Add to that any entry fee paid to get into a show.  I read all this stuff about people scoring at Garage and Estate sales-in my experience it is rare to find train items.

PS-I sent you a PM at the end of July, did you see it?

-jb


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Woody Elmore on August 24, 2013, 08:47:52 AM
Sometimes it is possible to add solder to the frames. Just look to see if the main frame member (down the middle of the car) is solid or has an open space. You use a silicone type adhesive and just add solder. There are different solders out there with all sorts of dimensions and weights. I used to use very thin solder made for electrical work. This is a good way to get rid of old, lead-based solder.

I also have seen tank and flat car truck axles wrapped in solder. That helps keep the car on the track but I can't say much as to how it looks!

There is also the old trick of pouring soupy plaster into the tank car via the dome. That is followed by BBs. You shake the car around (like a martini) to distribute the plaster and BBs. I tried it and it worked until the car was derailed and the plaster broke - then I had a tank car that rattled!


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on August 24, 2013, 09:08:57 AM
Thanks Woody
I have more luck finding those kinds of spaces in the frame on 4 bay open hopper cars than on tankers.  Most of the tankers I have or have seen, are flat in the under frame and don't unfortunately, have that space you are referring to.  I like to use nails and epoxy, but perhaps lead core solder is heavier than a finishing nail  ??
Good ideas.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: CNE Runner on August 24, 2013, 11:05:42 AM
jbrock - You da' Man...let's hope the spell checker becomes more popular.

Regarding weighing a completed tank car body: I think the best solution would be some sort of liquid that eventually hardens and can take the handling (mis-handling?) of normal model railroad operations. Epoxy comes to mind. There are many epoxies on the market that have longer curing times. One could inject the epoxy into the car via a rather small hole in one end (on the bottom surface); another hole (would be much smaller) would be required as a 'vent'.

The tricky part would be getting the weight just right (or within NMRA standards for that length car). I have no idea how much cured epoxy weighs. Assuming the epoxy 'filler' wasn't heavy enough, one could add BBs or shotgun pellets (which come in various sizes/weights and are available at many gun shops) before 'plugging' both injection and vent holes. By quickly turning the car over (AFTER sealing the aforementioned holes) the epoxy would 'settle' to the bottom of the tank and thereby keep the center of gravity lower (the BBs, shot would already be on the bottom surface anyway).

After that dissertation, it becomes readily apparent that either buying a RTR car - or a kit is much easier. For those of you with lots of spare time on your hands (and a source of epoxy and BBs/shot), give it a try and get back to us.

Regards,
Ray

PS: 'Have done the "adding solder to the frame" operation years ago; but found that you really can't add much weight without a significant amount of solder.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Len on August 24, 2013, 11:14:07 AM
I have a simple solution for assembled tank cars, using BB's as the weight.

Drill a hole large enough for the BB's through the center sill of the car into the body. Use some old sprue to make a plug for the hole when your done.

Weigh out enough BB's for the weight you're shooting for. then load the BB's into the car body. I found a small funnel somewhere that works great for this, or make your own from card stock.

Squeeze some white glue through the hole, this will keep the BB's from rattling around.

Close the hole with the plug you made earlier and some plastic cement.

Shake the car to distrube the white glue over the BB's, then let the car set upright overnight to let the white glue set up.

Len


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on August 24, 2013, 11:21:18 AM
Thank you Ray!  All good suggestions, right down to looking into RTR rolling stock instead.  If one were to invest the time, what kind/brand of epoxy would you recommend?
I like your suggestions as well Len.   What kind of glue or epoxy would you recommend?


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jward on August 24, 2013, 08:01:00 PM
a much cheaper way of weighting cars is to use pennies. that's about 5c per ounce. they only way you can get cheaper is if somebody gives you the weights.

I find that keeping the weight as low as possible hel[s with the stability of the car. for covered hoppers this means gluing the pennies into the hopper bottoms inside the car. I also find that the nmra weights are a good benchmark, not set in stone. I weight my cars to at least nmra specs, preferably a little more.

weighting open top cars can be a problem, as there is usually little you can do to conceal the weight.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on August 24, 2013, 08:08:26 PM
Thanks Jeff.
This is like Deja Vu all over again.  Most of us chatted about the same topic a year or so ago, with a lot of the same suggestions/recommendations.
I find that while some added weight is needed to lesser expensive or older model cars, more or NMRA standards aren't necessarily needed to get to a good running car.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Doneldon on August 24, 2013, 08:52:04 PM
I also live with a pro-caulker who uses a very fluid caulk I have issues with. He uses it without incident)  How about filling with coins first then pumping in some "goo" ? Any how good luck Don.

GG1-

Yes. Some pros have and use materials which we DYI-ers, regardless of how talented, neither understand well or can use effectively. It's what separates us from the pros.

I'd be reluctant to put the coins in first and then add the goop because I'd be afraid of leaving some coins loose and rattling around inside. You hardly ever hear a tank car with rattles inside. This may be one of the few exceptions to the adage about everything having a prototype somewhere.
                                                                                                                                    -- D


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jward on August 24, 2013, 10:32:45 PM
what I do for tank cars is glue 4 or 5 pennies together then superglue them on edge at each end of the car.
(http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab296/emdloco/Model%20Railroad%20how-to/Adding%20weight%20to%20a%20tank%20car/IMG_9098.jpg) (http://s873.photobucket.com/user/emdloco/media/Model%20Railroad%20how-to/Adding%20weight%20to%20a%20tank%20car/IMG_9098.jpg.html)

the photo shows the concept as applied to a Bachmann standard line tanker.

as for assorted rattles in tank cars, I can tell when one of the empty oil trains rolls by the house by the various odd noises echoing in the cars. empty tankers really do rattle and squeak.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Doneldon on August 25, 2013, 03:55:46 AM
as for assorted rattles in tank cars, I can tell when one of the empty oil trains rolls by the house by the various odd noises echoing in the cars. empty tankers really do rattle and squeak.

jeff-

Clanking and squeaking, sure, but rattles coming from inside the tank? I don't think so.

                                                                                                                        -- D


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: GG1onFordsDTandI on August 25, 2013, 06:22:48 AM
I think Len has the best idea, BBs, white glue and a small hole. K.I.S.S.-ed it he did.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on August 25, 2013, 07:03:11 AM
GG1, I agree with K.I.S.S.  Makes life a whole lot easier.

Jeff, thank you for the pic.  What brand are the silver wheels pictured on the tanker?   Metal too, I imagine?


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Woody Elmore on August 25, 2013, 08:26:27 AM
I forgot my weighting adventures using used linotype sections. These were made from a lead alloy and were just the thing to weight down HO cars.  They came in different lenths, were about an eighth of an inch thick and one inch wide. I used to cut them up glue them into the open places under flat cars and saw them into strips for other applications.

Linotype  composing for newspapers has gone the way of the CB radio, cars with no cup holders and people who controlled little kids in restaurants.

As the song said - "Those were the days, my friend..."


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on August 25, 2013, 08:45:25 AM
..."I thought they would never end, na, na, na, na,..."

Wood, can Linotype still be found anywhere?  Sounds like from what you say, it cannot.  Am I wrong?


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Catt on August 25, 2013, 09:27:46 AM
I have a rather large collection of old Bachmann-LifeLike-AHM/IHC-TYCO cars and have discovered that the price of a truck tuner is more than offset by the better rolling action of the cars.They will eventually all get metal wheels ,but for right now I am happy with the stock plastic wheels.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: CNE Runner on August 25, 2013, 10:31:54 AM
I adhere to the KISS principle as much as possible; but I'm not convinced Len's idea of using white glue and BBs will work for the long run. BBs and pennies are roughly the same price - that that part seems plausible. I'm am most concerned with the use of 'white glue' [PVC]. 'White glue' does not readily adhere to styrene. Unless one completely fills the tank with a mixture of BBs and 'white glue', one ends up with the glue/BB mixture (which hereafter I will call a 'plug') - hardened on the bottom of the tank. Should the car be turned upside down (or dropped...and don't tell me you have never dropped a car), the resulting 'plug' will rattle around. Having said that, a possible fix is to make sure the tank is filled with glue/BBs to a little over half ('same number of BBs...but more 'white glue'). The tank cylinder arc begins to get smaller and the 'plug' would have nowhere to go.

This is a good idea though and one I will try in the future.

Ray


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jward on August 25, 2013, 01:39:06 PM
GG1, I agree with K.I.S.S.  Makes life a whole lot easier.

Jeff, thank you for the pic.  What brand are the silver wheels pictured on the tanker?   Metal too, I imagine?

I am not sure what make the wheels are. probably Bachmann or intermountain. some of my older cars have nwsl, which I consider the Cadillac of wheelsets, but they're pricey. they are most definitely not kadee, as I've had trouble with warped axles on kadee wheelsets and don't buy them anymore.

btw, we had a linotype machine in tech school when I went in the early 1980s, and a print shop I worked in a couple of years later used a similar Ludlow machine to cast type slugs. the difference between the two is that a linotype used a keyboard to set the letter molds, whereas on a Ludlow you did this by hand. linotypes were used extensively in newspaper and book publishers, but as I recall their speed was offset by the limited sizes of type. ludlows didn't have that restriction, and we could set headlines up to 72 points with them. both were made unnecessary by the rise of offset printing in which plates were burned from any type or image. type slugs were restricted to the older letterpress type presses, which basically stamped the type slugs against the paper, instead of the roller action of the offset press.

letterpresses were good for certain operations which offset presses either couldn't do, or did poorly, such as numbering, perforation, or decals.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Woody Elmore on August 25, 2013, 03:22:10 PM
I used to get my linotype slugs from a member of our club. I would think that modern typesetting is all done via computer. I'm sure that there are places in the world still doing printing the old way.

I used to put pieces of linotype inside box cars right over the trucks. The cars really tracked well but it was a workout for the engines!

I think the BB approach is probably the easiest and best (short of modeling a railroad that nver handles tank cars!)



Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Catt on August 25, 2013, 11:06:53 PM
I've used white glue and fishing weights for years to ballast HO and On30 rolling stock.I've also used it in N scale cars.Eleene's tacky glue also works very well


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on August 26, 2013, 12:25:17 PM
Thanks Ray, Jeff, Woody and Catt.
Sorry to repeat my question to you Ray, but since you don't have a lot of faith in the white glue idea, what kind/brand of epoxy do you recommend?

Jeff, funny what you said about the Kadees-I just took delivery on a set 12 :-\.  Would Kadee not honor you going to them and telling them the axles were warped, or did this warping occur over time/use?
If they were formed that way, is it easy enough for one to see a warped axle or is there a recommended test to determine that.

Catt, alot of our freight rolling stock is made up from cars from many of the makers you cited, in addition to a good number of Athearn Blue Box freight.  We don't have set rules for wheels or wheelsets.  If they roll/run fine, they stay the way they are.  Of course, we have found backing up is much easier with car mounted couplers than the talgos.  I also really like the Bachmann Silver series freight cars! 


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: CNE Runner on August 27, 2013, 08:59:17 AM
It isn't that I haven't much faith in PVC (white glue), it's just that all glues are designed to adhere to certain substances...and not others. PVC is really designed to cause adhesion between objects composed of wood fibers (ie. paper, wood, cardboard). PVC works with ballast because of the irregular nature of the ballast 'grains'. In a way, ballast is almost 'clumped' together as opposed to adhered. [As an aside: PVC will glue ballast to Styrofoam...but not as well as, say, Homesote or plywood.]

The inside of a styrene car is exceptionally smooth. Additionally styrene usually has some mold release material on it - from the molding process. The mold release 'stuff' can be washed off with soap, water and some type of mechanical abrasion (like an old toothbrush). So, the inside of a completed, sealed, tank car may be contaminated or will be very slick (because there is no definite way of cleaning the plastic and no way to 'roughen' it)...not good for PVC.

As far as epoxy goes, I guess I would go with one of those 5 minute (or longer) brands that are dispensed in a 'mixing' tube ('looks like 2 syringes joined together at the opening). A problem I see with this method is the size of the hole one would need to drill to allow the dispenser opening to protrude into the tank. [Some of these products come with a smaller nozzle.]

I guess if I had to 'weight' a completed tank car today, I would use BBs and PVC. The only caveat would be that the PVC/BB mix would extend slightly over half the diameter of the tank...if the PVC didn't 'hold' the mass couldn't go anywhere. There are many other epoxies out there; but I don't have any experience in their use.

Ray


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Len on August 27, 2013, 11:04:50 AM
Ray,

These days I use a white glue called 'Weldbond', which seems to have a different consistency and "tackiness" than regular white glue. But even when I was using plain old 'Elmer's' white glue I never had any problems with the BB's coming loose.

Len


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on August 27, 2013, 12:56:28 PM
Thank you Ray and Len.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jward on August 27, 2013, 08:38:08 PM

Jeff, funny what you said about the Kadees-I just took delivery on a set 12 :-\.  Would Kadee not honor you going to them and telling them the axles were warped, or did this warping occur over time/use?
If they were formed that way, is it easy enough for one to see a warped axle or is there a recommended test to determine that.

 


most of the kadees I had that warped did so after they were installed. there is an easy test to see if they are true or not. turn the car upside down and spin the axle. if both wheels wobble the axle is probably bent. this is not usually a problem with those brands which use metal axles so those are now what I buy. kadees and I think proto have plastic axles, Bachmann, intermountain, nwsl, reboxx and jaybee all have metal axles.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Woody Elmore on August 28, 2013, 09:20:43 AM
I recall a friend using bird shot instead of BBs. Wouldn't the shot be heavier - therefore requiring less of it?


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on August 28, 2013, 12:08:42 PM
You are correct Jeff, both Kadee and Proto 2000 (I have an order of them coming as well  :D) have delrin axles.

Woody I believe you're right, bird shot, especially that made of lead, would be heavier than BBs.  Someone during the last discussion on the tanker weighting project mentioned using bird shot instead for the weight.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Doneldon on August 28, 2013, 03:06:50 PM
jb and Woody-

Bird shot won't be heavier than BBs because the Feds made lead shot for waterfowl illegal 20+ years ago, substituting steel. Birds which were just wounded were accumulating lead and so were water birds which feed on lake bottoms or fed on fish which bottom fed. This was eventually eaten by higher predators, including big fish, eagles and people, who were then poisoned by the lead. That's why eagles in the lower 48 were endangered; the lead made their egg shells too fragile to last until the chicks were ready to hatch. And people were experiencing lead poisoning symptoms like neurological and intellectual impairment, especially kids, if they ate much lead-contaminated fowl or fish. Eagles have made an astounding comeback and lead poisoning in people has pretty much disappeared except for children in poor families who still have exposed lead paint in their homes.

Someone may have a supply of lead shot for skeet or upland fowl hunting. There was a great hue and cry about the waterfowl steel shot requirements because it doesn't impact as hard so birds weren't killed unless hit squarely. I've lived on or near the Mississippi flyway since the mid-1960s so I've seen the eagles rebound for myself. You rarely saw eagles in the mid-60s and early 70s, except for close to the river, but the numbers came back very quickly after the lead ban was in place.

Now there is another big flapdoodle because the feds and environmentalists want a total ban on lead ammunition, even bullets not intended for birding. I'm not a hunter but I'm certainly concerned about lead in our environment. I think the ban is a good idea, but there are lots of folks who disagree with me quite strongly. My advice is that they learn to shoot more accurately so they don't have to worry about wounded birds, deer or whatever else they're hunting.
                                                                                                                                                                -- D


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Woody Elmore on August 29, 2013, 01:19:17 PM
I forgot about the lead shot ban. I live 100 yards from Oyster Bay on Long Island and there are plenty of hunters during duck season. So they dump steel instead of lead into the bay!

Maybe asking the manufacturers to make a cast metal tank car frame would be the answer to the weighting problem. I remember HO tank cars with cast underframes - maybe it was Varney or MDC who did this.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on August 29, 2013, 01:40:44 PM
In lieu of being able to obtain non steel bird shot, some states still allow for the use of lead fishing sinkers (States Rights n all).    Small, round lead sinkers may be found, close in size to BBs to use as a substitute for the BBs, which will provide greater added weight.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Doneldon on August 29, 2013, 09:52:00 PM
In lieu of being able to obtain non steel bird shot, some states still allow for the use of lead fishing sinkers (States Rights n all).    Small, round lead sinkers may be found, close in size to BBs to use as a substitute for the BBs, which will provide greater added weight.

jb-

True, but at a significantly higher cost both per unit and per ounce.

                                                                                           -- D


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Mdaskalos on August 29, 2013, 11:30:13 PM
My advice is that they learn to shoot more accurately so they don't have to worry about wounded birds, deer or whatever else they're hunting.
                                                                                                                                                                -- D

I find your "advice" to be rather smug, uninformed, and more than a little condescending.

Also, your advocacy of a ban does not belong here; a ban, being a heavy-handed government instrument or policy, is inherently political, and is thus against the clearly stated policy on the Bachmann forums.

I am more than happy and able to take your position apart brick by brick; if your post remains intact, I will do so.

I suggest you revise your remarks to comply with forum policy, to do your part to maintain forum decorum. I am not suggesting that you do this out of being afraid to engage me in a debate. (I rather expect that you are not). I am suggesting, rather, that you consider your remarks, and consider further that those who offer us this forum space have requested that we not take discussions into territory that YOU have taken this one, and that you respond accordingly.

I am throwing down no gauntlet; I am merely picking up the one you have rather cavalierly dropped in our midst. I am picking it up, handing it back to you, looking you squarely in the eye, and saying, "Here. This is yours. You know what it means to throw this down, I know what it means to pick it up. You have one chance to put it back in your pocket; otherwise, here and now is where you have thrown it down, and here and now is where we will have at it."

I do not expect, in making these remarks, or in any further response I may make, to win friends and influence people. Rather, I expect the opposite; I fully expect to be seen by some as attacking a respected, long-time member of this forum. But I do not join forums to obtain respect or admiration. Frankly, I don't really care what most people think of me. I do care however, about right and wrong, and when someone wishes to be wrong and violate the rules of conduct at the same time, I stand at the ready to respond. (I join forums to obtain (and, when I can, offer) information in the areas to which the forums pertain, BTW)

No, I have not reported this to the moderators; that rings too much of running to mommy for me to do so. I would not be surprised, however, to find that someone has now gone to a moderator with this matter. (Not necessarily you, but perhaps anyone who really would rather not see this boil over in the forum)

But, it need not boil over. You edit your post to redact you advocacy and your flippant "advice", and I'll remove the entirety of this post, and we both walk away like nothing ever happened.

I await with interest your choice. We can either keep the forum clean and dedicated to the purpose for which it was intended, or we can go round and round until the mods step in. Either way, one learns much about who he interacts with by sitting back and observing at moments like this.

Manuel


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Doneldon on August 30, 2013, 12:10:49 AM
Manuel-

Very funny. At least I hope so. I'd hate to think that anyone could have
seriously written your post. I appreciate the entertainment.
                                                                                                 -- D


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jward on August 30, 2013, 03:26:04 AM
I didn't see doneldon's post as inherently political. neither, I suspect, did most of us on the forum. so I am wondering what purpose the above post served, other than to try to stir up drama.

posting about using bird shot is a germaine topic to weighting cars, as are reasons why said bird shot may be hard to find, or any hazards it may cause.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on August 30, 2013, 07:01:33 AM
Doc, I can see that we are going to have another debate over "cost".  I have not crunched the numbers, but what are you seeing as a "significantly higher cost"?  In some places, it may be possible to find lead based sinkers at a discount bc of banning.

I think Md was being serious and has the right to make his post as I do believe Doc was being environmental/political in his post.  And I think both posts deserve to remain.  I can understand why Md would take exception to Doc's last comment in his 8/28/13 post.  I am not a hunter myself; I fish catch and release only, so I and my son, and later on his children can continue enjoying catching fish in the future.
I understand that is not possible for a hunter, but that does not mean I am against the act of hunting.  I also view myself as an environmentalist, believe in recycling, the whole bit.
In all fairness, I don't think Md would have made his post if Doc had stopped his post following his noting the lead ban on bird shot.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on August 30, 2013, 07:08:58 AM
Oh, and PS, I bought some store brand "Tacky" glue at a local craftstore last night to use when I go to add weight to a tanker car.  Used a 40% off coupon too, Doc ;)


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Len on August 30, 2013, 09:43:42 AM
I use BB's because they're easy to find in my local area, and do the job. If you prefer something else, go for it.

Len
 


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: GG1onFordsDTandI on August 30, 2013, 11:17:14 PM
FYI- Lead sinkers may face a similar fate to Dons birdshot. Maybe I wont be afraid to eat the catfish, and bullhead I catch after awhile. I doubt it will throw off my casts ;D.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Doneldon on August 31, 2013, 03:52:06 AM
I'm not so sure it's political to endorse a plan to remove known carcinogens or poisons from our environment when there are readily available substitutes with little or no down side. I know for a fact that there's nothing in the Constitution preventing the government from abridging an individual's right to distribute dangerous substances without regard for either the environment or the other citizens of the country. Just check the history of alar or DDT.

I suppose the folks who have bags of lead ammunition components or fishing equipment can justifiably complain that a lead ban costs them money but I can't imagine that anyone has missed a meal or had their home foreclosed because they couldn't use lead pellets when they went hunting with their $1800 (or much more) Benelli shotgun. I believe the subject does become political, however, when the subject is misinterpreted as a threat to someone's masculinity or sacred right to bear arms. (That, by the way, is just about the most misunderstood part of the whole Constitution.)

Guns are red-hot due to both the efforts of some, admittedly, overbearing gun haters/fearers and some equally febrile gun owners who have been told at every opportunity that the government wants to take their guns away and therefore anything which smells even remotely of gun control must be immediately attacked. I personally have little time for either extreme.

I do believe that there is no rational or Constitutional right to own and use guns which are designed solely to kill human beings, or to allow people to have guns unless they know how to use them safely and they practice what they know. The large number of children who kill themselves or their siblings with unsupervised loaded guns suggests to me that there are a lot of gun owners who aren't responsible with their weapons. And then there are the people who are harmed by their own guns far more often than they effectively use those same guns for self protection, which would be hysterically funny if it weren't so tragic. And let's not even get into the bloodshed on our streets and in our schools because of the huge number of unmonitored guns in the hands of kids who think having a gun makes them a man but who will never be a man as long as they have no respect for the sanctity of human life. The problem is, to my way of thinking, that too many otherwise well-meaning members of our society have bought into the gun control scare put out there by, mostly, the NRA. It's very interesting to me that a majority of NRA members favor at least some forms of gun control but their organization ignores that because of the vast dollars pumped into the organization by the gun manufacturers who clearly have a reason to keep gun owners threatened by any effort to restrict gun ownership or use (read: buy guns from those same manufacturers).

Even I recognize that I am sliding dangerously close to mounting a soapbox so I will end my little missive here. But I do want to emphasize that my comments about banning lead ammunition was not political in any way. Just an observation.
                                                                                                                                                                   -- D
 


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on August 31, 2013, 09:00:16 AM
GG1 lead fishing weights have been going the way of Doc's lead bird shot.  They have been band in my state and for the record everyone, I am not against that. They now make for great weights to be added to my rolling stock :)  By the way, the purpose of the ban was not for fish, but for waterfowl ingesting the lead.  Doc touched on this in his initial soliloquy.  You have a lot more other worries about what is in whatever freshwater fish you eat; have you ever heard of PCBs or Benzene?

Also for the record, I am not a fan of the NRA among other things.
 
Doc you appear to be the only one talking about or being concerned about money (cost).  I think the debate goes well beyond that but that is not for here really and will leave that to you and Md to debate, that is if you take his offer to do so.
How did we even get here from talking about weights for rolling stock?  Oh, wait I know, Doc got on his soapbox, not once, but twice.

Doesn't anyone want to talk about "Tacky" glue??
Doc, still looking for an answer to my question to you about "significantly higher cost".
   


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: CNE Runner on August 31, 2013, 10:39:59 AM
CMSLUSS - I think you have been given enough (abet conflicting) information on your original question; to pursue this topic any further is just an exercise in redundancy. Additionally, I see a negative 'turn' in the discussion that has diverted from the original post. Would you please 'lock' this thread?

My thanks to the usual 'cast of characters' who have taken their time to put forth some very useful information...you are what this forum is all about. To those of you who seem to be using this as a political forum...please take that discussion elsewhere.

We (my wife and I) are active pistol shooters (range...not hopefully another human ever) and have our own opinions on the nation's gun laws. [WARNING: Pistol range shooting is addictive!] The Bachmann forum is not the place to voice them. Honestly, I hope I haven't offended anyone by my remarks and am not attempting to start a 'firestorm' (as so often happens on forums). Personally, I will not open this thread again; so any response you may have will remain unread.

Peace,
Ray

PS: To be honest, I am really getting tired of the whole 'forum experience'.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on August 31, 2013, 10:42:09 AM
Why close it Ray?  I would like to get opinions on "Tacky" glue please.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on August 31, 2013, 10:51:37 AM
PS Ray, not sure why you would shut down after your last post and not read any further posts.  You have said your peace, would you not want others to have the same opportunity?  And that is not to say that I agree certain subjects should continue to be posted in this thread (please see my comment above about this debate not really belonging here).

I for one certainly hope you don't go the way of: Jim Banner, Yampa Bob, Jeff Wimberly and others.   


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Doneldon on September 01, 2013, 02:16:45 AM
jb-

It's very simple: U.S. cents weigh 2.5 grams and there are roughly 28 grams to the ounce. Consequently, an ounce of pennies is just a tad over 11 cents. You can't buy lead sinkers or lead sheet or lead solder or any other form of weight for so little. For example, lead sheet for modeling costs $1.00 per ounce. That's nine times the cost of pennies. Black powder balls cost 20 cents each for both 140 grain and 175 grain balls. I'll use the 175 grain ball as it's the less expensive option. One-hundred seventy-five grains is .40 ounces so it would take 2.5 balls to equal an ounce. That's 50 cents per ounce, more than four times as much as pennies.

The results for other heavy sporting items favor pennies even more. Down Shot (a moldable weight) works out to $1.87 per ounce (x17). Bullet fishing weights work out to 76 cents per ounce (x7). Diamond Brass sinkers are $2.39 per ounce (x21). Ultra-Tin Split Shot cost 16 cents each with weight not specified but they are the size of the old lead split shot so you know it takes somewhere between several and many to equal an ounce. The least expensive airgun pellets, Crosman .177 caliber Ultra-Magnum Pellets, cost $9.99 for 500, or two cents each. They weigh 10.5 grains each or about 41.5 to the ounce. That works out to 83 cents per ounce (x7.5). I couldn't find the weight of a BB so I cannot compute the cost per ounce but at $12.99 for 600, they cost 2.16 cents each. In order to be cheaper than pennies, only 5.1 BBs would have to weigh an ounce. That means a BB would have to be twice the weight of a penny, a preposterous proposition. 125 grain bullets for reloading cost 20 cents each. One-hundred twenty-five grains is about .29 ounce, which means there would be 3.44 slugs per ounce. That works out to 68 cents per ounce, more than six times the cost of pennies.

It's certainly true that someone with a stock of lead sinkers, BBs, musket balls or some other suitable material can use it essentially for free but that's only because they've already paid the larger cost. There really is no question that pennies are by far the cheapest way to weight our rolling stock.

                                                                                                                                                                    -- D


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on September 01, 2013, 07:02:13 AM
Thank you for getting back to me Doc.  
Unfortunately, the pennies would not fit in the bottom portion of my AHM tanker car, so I am using ball shaped (split shot) fishing sinkers with Tacky glue.  As you touched on, these were already bought and paid for and are currently of no other use.
Seems to me the Tacky glue certainly takes a while to dry.  


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Catt on September 01, 2013, 11:10:41 AM
I have a suggestion for those of you that don't think white glue will hold.Take two pieces of flat stock ,spread a even coat of glue to one piece,put the two parts together and let the glue dry.Then pull them apart if you can.You may just be surprized at how strong that glue bond really is.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on September 01, 2013, 02:00:07 PM
Catt, how long, depending of humidity, does it take for the Tacky glue typically to dry/cure?
Thank you.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: rogertra on September 01, 2013, 04:45:20 PM
Doneldon is correct.

The cheapest and easiest to obtain weights are pennies, U.S. or Canadian, it doesn't matter.

As for white glue (Elmers)?  It's good enough for holding weights in place inside a car.  Those that say otherwise obviously have never tried it.  :)



Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Doneldon on September 02, 2013, 12:46:32 AM
Catt and jb-

There's a good reason there are seemingly hundreds of kinds and brands of glue on the market: NO glue works every time we want two pieces of something to stick together. Any modeler, or anyone anywhere, has more than one adhesive on hand in order to handle the different demands of various projects. Gorilla Glue is a wonderful product, for example, but I wouldn't use it to repair a delicate bone china teacup. Similarly, I wouldn't use Goo to reseal an envelope for the mail. We have various products so we can successfully complete different gluing tasks.

It seems clear to me that folks who don't trust white glue can choose another product while those who are confident of its utility can go ahead and use it. I don't think this is a debatable issue.

                                                                                                                                                     -- D


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on September 02, 2013, 07:30:14 AM
I guess I will have to answer my own question: the Tacky glue took more than a full 24 hours before it went from milky white to clear and from gooey to cured.  Please, please, no one assume this is a complaint, just an observation.  I suppose how long this takes depends on the amount of Tacky glue used? (that is a question)

It's unclear to me why this appears to have devolved into the subject of white glue and those who don't use or have confidence in it ???  Or that there is some "debate" at hand.  How did we get there?

Since I am already here, I will ask: what is the best adhesive/method for putting pennies together? (another question)

Thank you.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Len on September 02, 2013, 10:07:45 AM
Donalddon,

You cost analysis is correct, and I do use pennies when building tank cars from kits or scratch. What I use the BB's through a drilled hole for is cars that are already assembled and glued together.

jbrock27,

I normally let the 'Weldbond' glue I use set up for at least 12 hours. It's usually longer, as I'll do a car, set it aside, and forget about it until my next chance for a work session several days later.

Len


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on September 02, 2013, 10:45:37 AM
Thank you Len.  I saw the Weldbond at the same craft store I just bought the Tacky glue from.  It looked to be similar adhesive.  Is that correct or not?


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Doneldon on September 02, 2013, 06:28:39 PM
Since I am already here, I will ask: what is the best adhesive/method for putting pennies together? (another question) Thank you.

jb-

Absent a definition of "putting pennies together," solder.

                                                                           -- D


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on September 02, 2013, 10:02:15 PM
Definition of putting pennies together=putting several together to make a weight to be used in an HO rolling stock car body ;)
And when I say "best way", I mean what has worked for folks in the past.
Thank you Doc.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Len on September 02, 2013, 10:17:01 PM
Thank you Len.  I saw the Weldbond at the same craft store I just bought the Tacky glue from.  It looked to be similar adhesive.  Is that correct or not?

I really don't know. The only 'Tacky' glue I've ever used is "Aleene's Clear Gel Tacky Glue" for putting in windows, and model aircraft canopies, without fogging them up.

Len


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on September 02, 2013, 10:19:18 PM
Once again, thank you Len!


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Catt on September 02, 2013, 10:27:13 PM
I don't use pennys except to roll them and turn in for dollar bills. ;D Now for the best method of gluing flat stock (pennys or otherwise) the one that works for me is a thin layer of white glue (remember this is what works for me) then stack the items then let them set overnight if possible then glue the weight into the car.

I will state here that the best place for weights is close to the trucks.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on September 02, 2013, 10:31:57 PM
Thank you Catt.  I was aware of that tip about the placement of the weight, but thank you.
I like your idea better than soldering as it seems easier to me to keep all the pennies in line-most important I would imagine for when they are able to fit in the bottom half of a tanker. 


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: rogertra on September 02, 2013, 11:11:56 PM
Put the pennies on lowest part of the model, where they will be hidden, line them up end for end, cover them with white glue (Elmers) leave them overnight to dry and continue to assemble the model.  They will never move.  That's how I do it for models that need extra weight.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on September 03, 2013, 10:17:22 PM
Thank you Roger for your help.  If you were going to make a "slug" of say 5 or 6 stuck together, would you put a little glue in the middle of each one and stack them one on top of the other?

And thank you everyone for the help, I am very pleased with how the AHM tanker came out with the added weight.  The Tacky glue worked great!  The only downside is there is not enough "meat" on the frame ends to mount coupler boxes for knuckle couplers, so talgos is what it is going to have.  I am not even able to make a styrene or plastic bridge to glue from what is the outside of the frame to the interior frame of the car bc of a difference in levels from one to the other.  Oh well, can't have it all.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Doneldon on September 04, 2013, 06:49:35 AM
jb-

I'm not familiar with the specific tanker you are talking about but I'll throw my two cents in anyway, assuming it's even worth that much.

Isn't it possible to build a small crosspiece at the ends of the car to mount a coupler? I believe such a fixture would be inconspicuous if painted black or the color of the car's frame. If the mounting height is screwed up, you could use an offset knuckle. If there are central parts which are lower than the frames sides, you should be able to remove the excess material. If the sides are lower, either build up (well, down) from the central beam or attach the new face to the inside vertical surface of the side beams. Make the decision on which technique results in the best surface to mount your coupler.

                                                                                                                                                       -- D


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on September 04, 2013, 07:07:14 AM
Good Morning Doc :)

You don't remember AHM models?  I am surprised...
Thank you for the suggestions.  That may work, going across the end of the car with the filler piece, instead of from back end in toward the tank.  I will have to look and see what kind of mounting surface I have for a piece of plastic on the top or bottom at the end of the frame.  Thank you again. 
Probably the best lesson for me, is no more AHM tankers :-\


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jward on September 04, 2013, 07:37:40 AM
it isn't that we old heads don't remember ahm models. we voided them like the plague. there is a reason there are tons of them for sale dirt cheap at train shows.  $3 car plus at least $5 in parts plus $100 in aggravation makes silver series cars look like the bargain they are.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Doneldon on September 04, 2013, 07:41:38 AM
it isn't that we old heads don't remember ahm models. we voided them like the plague.

Jeff-

I don't know if you were sending a subliminal message or if your finger just
didn't press the "a" key hard enough, but the result was an apt comment on
those rickety old ahm railroad equipment.
                                                                          -- D


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: GG1onFordsDTandI on September 04, 2013, 08:29:21 AM

 I'll throw my two cents in anyway
                                                                                                                                                       -- D

Back to the pennies again eh?..... ;)


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on September 04, 2013, 09:17:34 AM
JW, you and I are about the same age and I certainly don't consider myself an "old head" :D

I do not agree that all AHM cars are "$100 worth of aggravation".  The tankers, yes I would agree (although I recall you once recently, stating for the novelty, you would not be against owning one of their 6 dome ones bc of it's uniqueness ;)) are not worth the purchase.  Some of the boxcars however, can be modified with a small amount of effort.  And that coupled with their cheap price if you have some patience, can mean they are a bargain.  Also, if you already own them from younger days, (just like Jonathan showed us in his modification of a PRR boxcar posting), the only additional expenses are the Kadee draft boxes, whatever brand knuckle coupler you want to use and trucks and wheels if you decide to replace the ABS "pizza cutters".  I don't have the rule that you have against them on the layout, if they run fine on my Code 100 track, they stay that way.  If they don't they get modified.
I agree the Bachmann Silver Series is a very nice car.  I have posted that sentiment several times now.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jward on September 04, 2013, 10:29:34 AM
age is only a small part of it. remember I have been in the hobby pretty much my whole life.

there are almost always ways to bring a car up to standards. but it some of the more unique ahm and tyco cars up to standard.

the old pizza cutter wheels are second only to the horn hook couplers as a source of derailemtns in my experience. they were cheaply made, often out of guage, and prone to derailment on less than perfect trackwork. replacing them with rp25 wheels has always been a priority for me. whether or not those wheels are metal is less important than their profile. remember, early ahm cars had metal wheels too, but they had oversize flanges and didn't work any better than the plastic ones.

it should also be pointed out that if you only run them in a forward direction, they may work well for you as is. but once you start using them on an operating railroad, where they must be sorted in a yard and spotted in sidings you will find the shortcomings of any car.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on September 04, 2013, 11:59:25 AM
Yes Jeff, I have been aware you come from generations of model railroaders.  Please don't misinterpret me, I was not trying to use our closeness in age to equate to a closeness in experience.  Was just pointing out, I don't view myself as "old".
Yes, I remember and have some metal wheeled ones.
Yes, I understand backing them up successfully can be more difficult than running them forward.
My son and I don't have scale miles of yard to be concerned with bc we simply don't have that kind of space to work with.  But we're happy with what we have to work with and make what we have work for us.

That "Deep Rock" tanker in your picture, is that an Athearn?


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Doneldon on September 04, 2013, 12:41:08 PM
the old pizza cutter wheels are second only to the horn hook couplers as a source of derailemtns in my experience. they were cheaply made, often out of guage, and prone to derailment on less than perfect trackwork. replacing them with rp25 wheels has always been a priority for me.

Jeff-

They were not only out of gauge, some were out of round and
some were warped. Those wheels were complete junk.
                                                                                  -- D


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Catt on September 04, 2013, 01:53:02 PM
One of these cars is a Athearn,the other is a TYCO.Can you tell which car is which? By the way I body mounted the couplers on the TYCO car.

(http://boylerwerx.0catch.com/gthomas1.jpg)


(http://boylerwerx.0catch.com/gilbert5.jpg)


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on September 04, 2013, 02:16:49 PM
Great work Catt!   My guess would be the bottom one is the TYCO.

Yes indeed Doc and Jeff the ABS wheels can get out of round and out of gauge.  For out of round or "chipped" wheels, take them off the car (if they have the plastic over the metal pin axle, I save them as the plastic sleeve can be used to fill a bolster hole that can later be tapped for a 2-56 machine screw.  I can't take credit for that idea, I got that from someone here-sorry I don't recall whom).  For the gauge check, this is what the NMRA gauge is in part, used for, to check wheel gauge.  I know I am not providing a revelation there ;).  Depending on the wheel type, the above mentioned metal pin axle with plastic (ABS) wheels for example,  if it just a matter of being out of gauge, it is possible to adjust it back to gauge.  Not true of course with all ABS plastic wheels, like the ones that are molded with axle and wheels  as one piece.  IHC cars (see original post) have these kinds of wheels, but not AHM if those are the ones we are talking about right now.  I cannot say all AHM wheels were junk.

Doc, I need to ask you, does your grandson still enjoy running the TYCO cars that he won at that barn sale?


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Doneldon on September 04, 2013, 02:51:38 PM
jb-

You have quite a memory. Yes, he runs some of the cars after I got them up to speed for him. Frankly, I think he got cheated a bit but he was so proud of himself that I focused on how well the cars would run once we got them updated. We did junk two cars and the all plastic genuine trash Chattanooga loco. It was laughably bad. Thanks for asking.
                                                                                                                                                       -- D


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on September 04, 2013, 04:15:01 PM
You're welcome Doc :).  I am sorry the after story was that he might have been cheated-I just remember how happy he was with the purchase and proud he was of his negotiating skills.  What kind of work did you have to put into updating the cars?
Regardless of whatever positive things I might have to say about rolling stock from now defunct companies, I cannot say anything positive about their motive power.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: CNE Runner on September 05, 2013, 10:15:49 AM
As I had mentioned before, I had decided to exit from this thread's discussion; however I recently found important information regarding the use of lead shot and PVA adhesives (i.e. woodworking 'glue'). My reference is Dr. Alan Gee's letter in the January 2013 issue of Railway Modeller magazine [Vol. 64].

I will not include all of Dr. Gee's letter; but suffice it to say that in 2004 and 2005 he used a lead shot/PVA mixture in the side water tanks on his Backwoods Miniatures tank locomotives (English units - he doesn't specify which Class). Early last year he noticed the side tanks beginning to "swell outwards". This condition got progressively worse until the seams had physically split open.

Now here is the important point: "I know that lead over many years slowly chemically reacts with the free acetic acid in PVA white glue to form lead acetate. It is this larger lead acetate molecule expanding which causes distortion and swelling to occur, especially if it is trapped in a confined space, as in the locomotives' tanks."

Suffice it to say that Dr. Gee had a major problem on his hands - resulting in the disassembly (and subsequent rebuilding/repainting) of his locomotives. He says he now uses a solid piece of lead, cut to the tanks dimensions, to add weight OR uses lead shot held in place with CA.

Check the reference as I have left out much of his letter for brevity. There [probably] is enough room within a tank car's body to allow for the expansion of any resulting lead acetate. Personally I am not willing to take the chance and will use pennies + CA in the future.

Regards,
Ray


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on September 05, 2013, 12:31:00 PM
Glad you came back to the thread Ray.  And thank you for the added information!


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: GG1onFordsDTandI on September 05, 2013, 04:55:21 PM
Thanks for the chemistry primer Ray, that's good to know.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Doneldon on September 05, 2013, 08:18:19 PM
Ray-

That's some interesting stuff. I wouldn't have expected the lead could expand to the point of breaking out the tanks but if rust can fracture concrete I guess it isn't such a surprise.

It's good to hear from you again.
                                                           -- D


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: CNE Runner on September 06, 2013, 11:27:45 AM
Thank you so much for the warm words...they are appreciated. Hopefully my post has prevented someone from experiencing the loss of a cherished model. [PS: I didn't remember the connection between molecular size and expansion until I came across that article in Railway Modeller.] CA (cyanoacrylate) is more expensive than PVA adhesives; but would seem more applicable in this instance (one would not be using all that much in this instance). For my 2 cents, I will only use PVA for ballast, wooden/card structures and the like...not for the retention of metals - especially lead.

I suggest that each of you try to find a copy of Railway Modeller or The Hornby Magazine; if only to see how 'things' are done in the UK. Bachmann produces some awesome stock in its UK range. One example is their SECR C Class 0-6-0 that is stunning...how the heck did they find someone with a steady enough hand to stripe the driver axles?

Personally I do not model UK railways...'really don't know all that much about them. However I have canceled just about all my US model railroad publications as I am dissatisfied with how the material is presented. The aforementioned UK publications have a 'knack' of explaining things that is informative - without being overly simplified. WARNING: These publications are very expensive (~ $11/issue USD). My Railway Modeller subscription is digital (Kindle) and is ~ half the export print price. I am hoping The Hornby Magazine will follow suit. [Continental Modeller is already available in digital (Kindle) format.] Those of you, possessing a Kindle Fire HD, can download the Railway Modeller ap and view the latest issue for free. Be careful as you have to notify Amazon that you do not wish to actually subscribe to the magazine as the start (and subsequent renewals) are automatic.

So, in summary, thanks again for the well wishes and check out those magazines. In no time you will be sending for a Metcalfe card kit (I've built 3 and have no use for any...they were fun); or spending a 'fun filled' evening converting the NEM couplers on a 7-plank wagon to Kadees. Oh, E. Hatton's of Liverpool are wonderful to deal with and have an active supply-the-U.S.-with-OO-stuff program. Do keep in mind that the UK is mainly OO gauge with is slightly larger than HO (but is the same track gauge). Now if I Oxford Diecasting would only offer a Series II Land Rover 88...

Warmest regards,
Ray


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on September 06, 2013, 11:59:27 AM
No problem Ray.

If my tanker car ends up busting its seems from a reaction between the lead fishing weights and the Tacky glue, I will post back here.  Although, seeing it "explode" might be kind of cool :o and maybe even somewhat realistic.  Luckily, if it happens, I will not view it as such a loss, but chalk it up to a learning experience.

I would like to add AHM 4 bay hoppers to the "do not buy list" as well.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jward on September 06, 2013, 09:08:35 PM
would those be the offset side 40 footers? or the rib side 50 footers? both types of hoppers have had similar models made by higher quality companies, the offset side by athearn and Bachmann silver series, the rib side by walthers.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on September 07, 2013, 10:49:03 AM
The 4 bay 40fters Jeff "open hopper".  Made in Taiwan by Kader, that does not have movable hatches on the bays.  Very cheesy under carriage/centerbeam, made out of ABS plastic.  The detail is not bad but...


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jward on September 07, 2013, 04:29:47 PM
I have one of those I took the time to upgrade, simply because I liked the paint scheme.  kadee 148 couplers, screwed to the flat end of the underframe. trucks replaced with a pair of athearns I had laying around, mounted with a screw and nut through the original bolster hole. for weight you can flip the car over and use bird shot poured into the recesses between the bays, secured with super glue. that should get weight close to nmra standard though it may still be a little light. this is the same process I've used on bowser h39 hoppers.

back in the day, every car was underweight no matter who made it. to-day we've gotten much better with most of the ready to roll cars close to proper weight.


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: jbrock27 on September 07, 2013, 05:28:47 PM
Thank you Jeff.  Yes, I had better luck doing something similar to that on a TYCO B & M 4 bay hopper.  It's frame seemed a little better made than this Taiwanese AHM.

I saw an AHM helium car go for $20 the other day on Estupid.  Incredible!!


Title: Re: IHC Covered Hoppers
Post by: Len on September 08, 2013, 07:18:16 PM
I suspect the expansion problem may also relate to how full the available space for weights was filled.

I have some tank cars I did the BBs held in place with white glue trick to over 40 years ago that are still in good shape. But I didn't fill the entire tank, or even half of it, with BBs to get the weight I wanted.

Len