I wanted to ask if there had been any progress on finding the problem with the Bachmann re-railers, so I went to the thread to post the question. I see Bachmann has found a way to fix the problem with their re-railers, or at least stop the issue from being discussed. On April 1, 2013, the Yardmaster posted that it was being "discussed and will be remedied". He then locked the thread so no more posts can be done there. WHY? That is kind of low! Thank you Mr Bachmann, I guess this is the same "Tech Support" everyone on this forum has been complaining about for as long as I can remember. At least you are consistant. From now on, I'm buying Atlas track, and if I find a buyer for several hundred pieces of new Bachmann track at our club's next train show, it's all out of here! Since I have not yet started building the layout, planned for this fall, it's all still new. I do have several hundred pieces of track, but that is only enough for the lower level, and every piece of Bachmann track I sell is a piece of new Bachmann track they will not sell. Atlas will be selling me a lot of track.
Problem? What problem?
These aren't the problems you are looking for...
No problems with turnouts either, just ask Jerry.
jb
Ask me what? I never said I never had problems, just have the talent to fix them.
rbryce
I don,t think you will ever find out. Recently while moving some track around on my layout I noticed I have two different re-railers that look the same but on the outer section of the railer one has a groove and one does not. Strange as I had never noticed that before. Newer version vs. older version?
Jerry
Today I went over to H&R Trains and bought 4 sections of Atlas Code 100 NS track and 2 Atlas re-railers. I tested several cars by manually de-railing them and passing them over the Atlas re-railers. 98% success rate of re-railing on the first pass, 100% re-railing on a second pass.
Jerrys HO
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Re: DCC Turnout #5 Problem
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2013, 11:08:01 AM » Reply with quote
Keith.
I agree don't give up sometimes the frustration overcomes you , but when it's all figured out there is a certain feeling of accomplishment that somehow makes you forget why you got so frustrated in the first place. Patience does pay off in the end and you will soon learn why this is the Greatest Hobby in the World.
By the way I have been through the Bachmann turnout's inside and out and out of now 17 of them only 2 still need a little attention.
Jerry
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Drive It Like You Stole It!
It is a great thing Jerry to have the ability to fix things.
I think you are acting a little paranoid lately. There is no reason to. Relax.
Your experiences with the turnouts have been different than Keith's (Keesu) and different from Robert's (rbryce1) experience with the re-railers.
I have a couple re-railers and of course the (E-Z Track) power connectors are re-railers as well but I don't really see the point of them. When something derails, 9 times out of 10 it shorts the track and I have to manually re-rail them anyway.
My 2c
Fortunately, the sometimes I have something derail, it is usually a freight car and does not cause a short but the car sometimes get dragged down the track bc the coupler is still hanging on :D. On the occasion the derailment happens, it is usually at a turnout.
as I had said before in the original deleted thread, if you are having derailments consistently, find the problem and correct it. rerailers shouldn't be needed if you have well laid track. looking for rerailers to cure the derailment problem is like banging your head off the wall repeatedly, then expecting Tylenol to cure the pain.
If it's this easy, I'm going to be amazed, but there is a definite difference between the Bachmann re-railer design and the Atlas design. The Atlas re-railer has a flat spot in the outside of the rails where the Bachmann has the groove continue up to the rail. The flat spot on the Atlas allows the outside wheel to rise up to the level of the top of the rail and slide sideways as it is pulled back into alignment by the wheel on the inside of the tracks being forced by the guide on the inside of the re-railer. The Bachmann design has the outside edge of the re-railer come to a point and align with the groove on the outside of the rail. The wheel flange then enters that groove and never crosses over the rail to re-rail. I'm going to modify a Bachmann re-railer to the same geometry this weekend and try it. If it works, I'll post photos.
Either way I'm still going to convert the entire upper level to Atlas track.
OK, Jeff, I'm done with this. How many times in the past thread did we argue about the fact that we are not concerned here with de-railing. IT HAPPENS! No matter how good things are, IT HAPPENS. The issue IN THIS THREAD, and please stick to it, is the failure of Bachmanns product to re-rail the very occasional derailment.
I really believe I may have solved the problem in 2 ways. 1) I think I can modify the Bachmann re-railers I already have so the things work, and 2) from now on, I'm no longer using the Bachmann product.
If anyone wishes to know how my test turns out, then just say so. If you still want to switch the topic of the thread, then please, start a new one.
Quote from: rbryce1 on August 27, 2013, 08:49:34 PM
If it's this easy, I'm going to be amazed, but there is a definite difference between the Bachmann re-railer design and the Atlas design. The Atlas re-railer has a flat spot in the outside of the rails where the Bachmann has the groove continue up to the rail. The flat spot on the Atlas allows the outside wheel to rise up to the level of the top of the rail and slide sideways as it is pulled back into alignment by the wheel on the inside of the tracks being forced by the guide on the inside of the re-railer. The Bachmann design has the outside edge of the re-railer come to a point and align with the groove on the outside of the rail. The wheel flange then enters that groove and never crosses over the rail to re-rail. I'm going to modify a Bachmann re-railer to the same geometry this weekend and try it. If it works, I'll post photos.
Either way I'm still going to convert the entire upper level to Atlas track.
rbryce1.
I'm guessing the Atlas rerailer is code 100 set track?
The only place I'm going to use rerailers is on the exit from my staging yards, on the main track just after the first switch then, how to put this? I'll have a rerailer right at the entrance and exit of each reverse loop staging track. I'm doing this as my staging tracks will be hidden in another "room" and will be monitored by a cheap video camera. It will be a pain to have to go into the "room" as it's an awkward part of the basement to access.
I do not use rerailers anywhere else as derailments just don't happen, unless an operator makes a mistake and backs cars through a closed switch. Other than that, derailments are very rare and any that do happen, are thoroughly investigated and the problem fixed.
roger,
amen to that.
Quote from: jward on August 27, 2013, 08:48:14 PM
as I had said before in the original deleted thread, if you are having derailments consistently, find the problem and correct it.....
Oh if it were only that easy.
I have some locos derail and some that don't so you would expect the problem to be the loco. Yet it happens on one particular turnout in only one direction so you would expect a faulty turnout.
Sometimes it seems the laws of physics don't apply and "s**t 'appens" :-)
Quote from: jward on August 27, 2013, 08:48:14 PM
as I had said before in the original deleted thread, if you are having derailments consistently, find the problem and correct it. rerailers shouldn't be needed if you have well laid track. looking for rerailers to cure the derailment problem is like banging your head off the wall repeatedly, then expecting Tylenol to cure the pain.
And Amen to that as well.
There is no excuse for continual derailments at the same place in your track work or with an individual locomotive or item of rolling stock.
Is stuff consistently derailing at the same place on your track? Then there's something wrong with your track. The solution? Find and fix the problem.
Is the same loco constantly derailing? Then there's something wrong with the loco. The solution? Find and fix the problem.
Is the same item of rolling stock constantly derailing? Then there's something wrong with the item of rolling stock. The solution? Find and fix the problem.
Rerailers are not needed as derailments just shouldn't happen. They happen due to poorly laid or manufactured track, out of gauge wheels, poor rolling wheels or stiff trucks not swiveling freely. These are the most common causes of derailments. All easily fixed by even the most ham-fisted modeller using the simplest of tools.
Yes, I will have rerailers in my hidden and difficult to access staging yards. Why? Because operators make errors. Backing up instead of going forward and derailing on switches set against their train etc.. Besides, having rerailers on the entrance and exit to staging tracks just makes sense. :)
Frankly I only used re-railers as substutes for grade crossings but mow I make my own crossings.
All excellent, albeit, common sense advice Roger. It appears to me that rbryce1 is following that advice and doing just that-he's found the problem (Bachmann re-railers) and is going about fixing the problem (his attempted modification of said re-railers).
Quote from: Bob_B on August 27, 2013, 11:10:07 PM
Sometimes it seems the laws of physics don't apply and "s**t 'appens" :-)
I thought that was a law of physics. ;)
...Or is it Murphy's Law ??
the laws of physics always apply, though not always in obvious ways. wheels will climb the rail anywhere it is easier for them to do so than follow the track. anything that causes the wheel flange to raise above the rail is a potential derailment. this could be a burr on the rail ( I always file the rail ends before laying track) or a lateral twist in the track. or even a car with the trucks too tight. or it could be track out of guage. or rolling stock which is operating on curves that exceed the limits of truck or coupler swing.
there are many possible causes, but the law of physics always applies.'
rbryce has figured out how to get the cars to rerail, now the trick is to keep them from derailing in the first place.
Quote from: jward on August 28, 2013, 10:09:30 PM
rbryce has figured out how to get the cars to rerail, now the trick is to keep them from derailing in the first place.
That's going to far easier for me as 99.75% of all of my de-railings are manually induced de-railings to test the re-railer! As I have said before, I have very, very few actual de-railings, but if one should occur, I would like the re-railer to work correctly to resolve it.
This argument is like saying that if I go off shore on my boat, I should never be concerned about my EPIRB working correctly because I should never need it, as if my boat was made correctly, it should never sink!
However, in the rare instance that I actually do sink, I think I would like it to work!
rbryce
QuoteThis argument is like saying that if I go off shore on my boat, I should never be concerned about my EPIRB working correctly because I should never need it, as if my boat was made correctly, it should never sink!
However, in the rare instance that I do actually sink, I think I would like it to work!
I think I would want to test my EPIRB before I test my re-railer. ;D
Jerry
Here is the difference I see between the Bachmann unit that does not work and the Atlas one that does work.
In the photos below, you can see the Bachmann's external ramp comes to a sharp point at the top. The wheel simply rides up the ramp until it is pinched at the top, cannot slide over the rails, simply hops over the plastic lip, and drops into the groove beside the rail, then continues the length of the re-railer in the groove until the end, where it falls back out still in a de-railed condition.
(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab80/rbryce1/trains/20130829_162315-640x480_zps8267b8b2.jpg) (http://s851.photobucket.com/user/rbryce1/media/trains/20130829_162315-640x480_zps8267b8b2.jpg.html)
(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab80/rbryce1/trains/20130829_162258-640x480_zpsb2c436af.jpg) (http://s851.photobucket.com/user/rbryce1/media/trains/20130829_162258-640x480_zpsb2c436af.jpg.html)
The Atlas design has a flat surface at the top of the ramp, even with the top of the rails. When the outside wheel rises to the top, it goes onto the flat surface. As the inside wheel is being pulled over to the opposite side by the wedge on the inside of the tracks, the wheel sitting on the flat surface slides sideways where it slides over the rail and drops into position inside the rail, thus re-railing correctly.
(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab80/rbryce1/trains/20130829_161006-640x480_zps36915f9e.jpg) (http://s851.photobucket.com/user/rbryce1/media/trains/20130829_161006-640x480_zps36915f9e.jpg.html)
(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab80/rbryce1/trains/20130829_161012-640x480_zps94c9629a.jpg) (http://s851.photobucket.com/user/rbryce1/media/trains/20130829_161012-640x480_zps94c9629a.jpg.html)
rb
You need a photo bucket account to download pics. I would love to see the pic as I stated a couple of posts ago I have two versions. The way you are describing the Atlas version sounds like one I have, but only one ( don't know where it came from,could be a newer set or some newer track I purchased and that was thrown in) the others or the one with the groove next to the rail. Wonder if you could slip a small piece of styrene in there and it works?
I'll try to post some pics of the two I have.
Jerry
Thanks Jerry, I was trying to attach the photos using Additional Options. The Photobucket method worked. See the above post where I added the photos.
looking at your photos, it appears that the flangeways are too wide on the rerailer. if they were the proper width, it shouldn't matter if there is a groove on the outside of the rail, the inner beveled piece would pull the wheel back on the track. proper flangeway width is the same as a hacksaw blade, which is easier to use to measure flangeways than an nmra guage.
you can narrow the flangeways by glueing strips of styrene in the flangeways. then using the hacksaw blade to cut them to proper width.
Ok rb1, I have a question for you (nice pics by the way-it was good you got them up here). Now that you have found what the problem appears to be and have been given a suggestion on how to correct the design flaw, are you going to? I ask this in consideration for your having found a workable solution by using Atlas re-railers, which alleviates having to spend more time, effort, perhaps money even, to correct the problem you are having with your Bachmann re-railers.
I can tell you what I would do.
Save your money and instead take the time to maintain your track, locos and rolling stock and then you will not need rerailers.
Properly laid good quality track, well maintained quality locos and rolling stock do not need rerailers.
Purchase cheap track, locos and rolling stock and you get what you pay for.
If you find your equipment is frequently derailing then something or a combination of things are wrong with your track laying skills,
locomotive maintenance or rolling stock maintenance. Well laid track, well maintained locomotives and well maintained rolling stock do not need rerailers.
As I said before, the only rerailers I have are in the entrance to and the exists from my hard to reach staging tracks. If, like on my previous model railroads my staging was easily accessible, I'd have no rerailers as they are not needed.
roger-
While I agree with you that careful trackwork, quality components and consistent maintenance are the keys to smooth operation, I'm not so sure that they can prevent all derailments. The proof of that is that real railroads have derailments all of the time but they have professional trackwork and continuous maintenance. I'm all for the careful work you reference but I think it's a little bit of an overstatement to suggest there will never be any derailments.
-- D
Quote from: Doneldon on August 30, 2013, 10:21:01 PM
roger-
While I agree with you that careful trackwork, quality components and consistent maintenance are the keys to smooth operation, I'm not so sure that they can prevent all derailments. The proof of that is that real railroads have derailments all of the time but they have professional trackwork and continuous maintenance. I'm all for the careful work you reference but I think it's a little bit of an overstatement to suggest there will never be any derailments.
-- D
Yes, I did somewhat exaggerate for effect but the last time I had a derailment was because I'd failed to set a switch for a propelling move and derailed two cars. I'm trying to emphasise that derailments should be rare and not happen every time you run a train. If that happens, all the rerailers in the world will not help. I really do not see their use out on the railroad. Derailments should be a very rare occurrence making rerailers unnecessary on a properly maintained model railroad.
Roger-
Again, I'm with you almost all of the way. I do think rerailers might have a place at the end of a yard ladder where there are so many complex forces acting on the wheels that a derailment might occur, and it's better there than out on the mainline at speed when there might be a full blown train wreck with concomitant damage. They're also appropriate as guard rails on turnouts and, especially, bridges, again because the consequences of a derailment could be pretty bad, but also because they are prototypical. But there is certainly no substitute for workmanlike building and systematic inspection and maintenance of all of the parts of a railroad, moving or still.
-- D
Roger, I think you are missing rb1's problem here-he was not complaining about derailments all over his layout, but derailments caused by his Bachmann re-railers. Unless I am overlooking something, he was not talking about a problem with trackwork, only the Bachman re-railers.
I have wanted to ask you Roger, if the GER was so wonderful, why did you end up throwing it in the dumpster??
jbrock
QuoteRoger, I think you are missing rb1's problem here-he was not complaining about derailments all over his layout, but derailments caused by his Bachmann re-railers.
I think you missed his question. rbryce1 was complaining the re-railers were not re-railing the cars, not derailing them. The de-rails happened before the re-railers.
The OP also stated his de-railments do not occur often. This is where Roger is implying that there may be a problem elsewhere, cars, track, weight or whatever.
No one can say they never have derailments but rbryce is looking for the specially designed track to do it's job.
As for Rogers GER I believe he moved into a new house and had to dismantle the old GER. I don't think all went into the dumpster. Look at his railway and you will see much of the same buildings and such.
By the way Roger how is the GER coming along?
Jerry
It seems the Bachmann Yardmaster again felt my comments were what he considered to be of a bad tone and again removed them. To agan state my response, I know why they do not work, I am going to replace the problem items, not try and correct them. I hope this tone is mild enough to stay.
I am not sure Jerry that the derailments were occurring before the rerailers and not bc of the B-mann rerailers, but I would prefer rb1 clarify that.
I see you persist in answering questions posed to others, on their behalf. You must have a large sum of retainer fees:
Roger Traviss...
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:10 pm
Quote:
Photos of the late GER: -
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/
"late" ?
OK, I'm just an occasional lurker. It sounds like you no longer have the
layout.
Do you care to explain what happened to cause you to no longer have it?
I moved. It didn't. Well it did, it went into the dumpster.
--
Roger Traviss
Photos of the late GER: -
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/
For more photos not in the above album and kitbashes etc..:-
http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/Great_Easter
jbrock27,
I have on several occasions recently tried to do what you asked, but was censored by the Yardmaster, most likely because he did not like that I had a problem with the Bachmann product and found a compeditor's product that did work correctly. To answer your questions, I have never had de-railing problems that were not self inflicted. I have had constant problems with the Bachmann re-railer not functioning as a re-railer like it is suppose to. Again, I have no de-railing problems other than ones I have caused myself. I have found a fix with another product and will use it instead.
rb1, I saw your original answer about this posted yesterday. Jerry must have missed seeing it before it disappeared. I have no idea why the Overlords or anyone else would have taken exception to your stating that rather than repair the defective Bachmann rerailers, you will be replacing them with those made by another brand.
Thanks for clarifying rb1. I will save your answer and forward to Jerry in case he misses it again in the event it gets expunged before he can read again where your problems truly were.
Everyone's concern about the rerailer design is noted. This thread is being locked since it has run it's course.