I've been watching pretty hard now since school has kicked back in gear and it's the beginning of train season again. I've noticed that most manufacture's do the same loco(s) for their big release(s) of the year.
since I'm new to the hobby is this standard practice or is it some rule the NMRA has set in place that they have to abide by?
I figured that each company would benefit more if they didn't do all the same type of locos...guess I'm wrong in this...
I do know that dummy engines are pretty much a thing of the past, but I wish they would do them again..anywho, I noticed only a few companies do the undecorated version of their models. I know the yardmaster stated that undeco'd loco's don't sell well, but they must somehow or the other companies would be doing them right? or is because Bachmann sells so much the sales don't justify the quantity they would normally produce?
Just rambling and thinking this morning.....
Best,
Bal
Not sure what scale you are referring to, but O gauge has not gotten many new engines in many months. WBB has been producing very few new engines. Seems that some are re-painted for Norfolk Southern; SD-90's instead of SD-70 ACe's.
While I am not into counting rivots as it is called, but want a somewhat prototypical engine modeled after real life locomotives.
While I realize that 3 rail track is not 100% prototypical according to the admin on here, the models should be closer to what was actually used by the real railroads in order to sell better; my 2 cents!
There are 3 rail railroad lines, some are cog railroads and some are standard gauge with a third rail for electric power. So there is a prototype for 3 rail track.
Lee F.
The problem lies more in investing in tooling that will lend itself to enough road names or popularity of a single road name to justify the high investment dollars. Contrary to popular belief production numbers in the model railroad industry are very low compared to the toy industry in general. In other words you need to sell quite a few production runs just to pay for the tooling. Most of the locos that have never been done are very limited in appeal - which basically means some folks really, really like them but not enough to justify the investment. Also keep in mind that there are no set rules as to who can produce what. In other words when something interesting comes along like the Norfolk Southern Heritage units all of the manufacturers are naturally going to be interested in producing models of them. And yes, Undecorated models have a tendency to sit in the warehouse until we have to sell them to distributors at blowout prices.
Bal-
The decisions about what loco to build, or anything else for that matter, are made by each manufacturer with the prime determinant being the potential profit. In that respect, model trains are like everything else which is made by every company. Some might view this as base or money grubbing but it's a simple fact that companies which don't make money don't stay in business. The NMRA has nothing to do with manufacturers' decisions beyond whatever costs are driven by the manufacturers' need to build items which are NMRA compliant. That applies mainly to DCC because other things, like gauge and rail height are already matters with which the companies must comply if they are going to sell anything.
What all of this means is that you and I, and our fellow MRs, drive the manufacturers' decisions about what models to produce. If enough of us wanted to run a Garrett or an obscure one-off experimental narrow-gauge steam engine there would be one in the pipeline. But most of us want F-units, big recent diesels and steam engines which are way too big for our layouts (Guilty!) so that's what we find on the shelves at our beloved LHS.
The reason that there are so many versions of F-units or big modern diesels is that all of the model manufacturers are reading the same data about what people (we) want to buy. This really hasn't changed since I've been a model railroader which goes back nearly 60 years. Modern CAD/CAM design and improved manufacturing techniques have allowed major manufacturers to venture into steam engines more than they did years ago but the issue of merchantability still applies. As I'm sure you know, models of unusual or at least not-on-every-railroad locomotives were made by the Japanese and then the Koreans but they sold in very limited numbers at astronomical prices. And a person might wait years for a given item to be manufactured. Early steam models were generally announced well in advance of their release date and the companies built only a few extra units beyond what were reserved. This meant that modelers without plenty of cash (read: my brother and I) had to be satisfied with diesels, a few poorly operating and poorly detailed steam engines, kits from the likes of Model Die Casting/Mantua or Varney, or scratch building. The latter wasn't a realistic possibility for young modelers (read again: my broth...) who lacked the requisite skills and equipment, or the money to buy the numerous brass details needed to equip a steamer once the basic chassis and superstructure were finished.
Today's market is filled with things I could only dream about as a young boy or young man. Additionally, I can afford brass models except that I'm still intimidated by the prices of the few newly constructed brass locos. I could buy them if I wish but I just can't force myself to spend the kind of money demanded for hand-built steam engines.
-- D
thanks for the replies, guys, and thanks yardmaster. I'm sure that tooling isn't cheap.
Quote from: Yardmaster on September 02, 2013, 01:54:44 PM
The problem lies more in investing in tooling that will lend itself to enough road names or popularity of a single road name to justify the high investment dollars. Contrary to popular belief production numbers in the model railroad industry are very low compared to the toy industry in general. In other words you need to sell quite a few production runs just to pay for the tooling. Most of the locos that have never been done are very limited in appeal - which basically means some folks really, really like them but not enough to justify the investment. Also keep in mind that there are no set rules as to who can produce what. In other words when something interesting comes along like the Norfolk Southern Heritage units all of the manufacturers are naturally going to be interested in producing models of them. And yes, Undecorated models have a tendency to sit in the warehouse until we have to sell them to distributors at blowout prices.
However, this does not prevent manufacturers of North American locomotives from painting locos in the colours of railroads that never owned that class or type of locomotive. The Alco 2-6-0 in CNR colours springs to mind as I was looking at one the other day. CNR never owned any of those 2-6-0s. Yes, they did own 2-6-0s but not those.
This is not something that Bachmann nor any other manufacturer does in the UK as UK modellers just wouldn't put up with it. You do not even see UK locos carrying liveries they never carried in real life. For example, you'd never see a Great Western Railway 2-6-0 painted in the colours for the Southern Railway, or the LNER or the LMS, it would never sell. Just different acceptable standards, I guess.
Actually British makers have released locomotives in liveries they never had, currently Bachmann's main british competitor releases small tank locos in liveries of railways that never had that class, or in liveries the railway had, but did not apply to the locos concerned.
The difference is in the prototype situation, from 1923 Britain had 4 main railways, and from 1948, one (British Railways.) Thus it has been relatively easy for makers to provide a varied roster for each company. In America there were many more railroads, making varied rosters for each railroad a lot more difficult unless the same loco is produced for several roads. Not surprisngly makers cheat a bit to do this. In Britain makers do offer the same loco with different liveries, usually those worn at different stages of its life, e.g. the post 1923 company (GWR, LMS, LNER, SR), and British Railways. A class may have had more than one livery in the same ownership, adding to the variations possible. Occasionally a suitable locomotive is offered in pre 1923 livery, as well as later liveries. The aim is the same , increase sales by offering several different versions from the same tooling.
Hamish
Quote from: Hamish K on September 02, 2013, 10:04:39 PM
Actually British makers have released locomotives in liveries they never had, currently Bachmann's main british competitor releases small tank locos in liveries of railways that never had that class, or in liveries the railway had, but did not apply to the locos concerned.
Without mentioning the name of the company (I know who it as I'm also a UK modeller :) ), what locos does it produce in liveries of companies that never had the class of loco. Exclude the Thomas range as they are toys, not models.
BTW, I've not heard of this before.
As Google is my friend, I can soon track them down. :)
I understand tooling costs for new models are expensive. so what's to stop Bachmann from re-releasing some of their older tooling, on upgraded drives? in HO, the u36b and f9 come to mind. in both cases, the bodies should fit on existing chassis.
Rogertra
The ex GWR 101 0-4-0t has been released in LSWR and Southern Railway liveries (as well as numerous fictious private owners, which I am not counting). The inside cylinder industrial 0-4-0t has bee released as LBSCR. The Caledonian Railway 0-4-0st has been released as Highland Railway. This list is probably not complete and only includes relatively recent releases. Nor does it include the wrong livery from the right company.
Hamish
Quote from: Hamish K on September 03, 2013, 12:28:25 AM
Rogertra
The ex GWR 101 0-4-0t has been released in LSWR and Southern Railway liveries (as well as numerous fictious private owners, which I am not counting). The inside cylinder industrial 0-4-0t has bee released as LBSCR. The Caledonian Railway 0-4-0st has been released as Highland Railway. This list is probably not complete and only includes relatively recent releases. Nor does it include the wrong livery from the right company.
Hamish
I know the ones you mean. The Holden GWR 0-4-0T, the short lived experimental Swindon shunter and the freelanced 0-4-0T. All use the same chassis and are really aimed at the toy train market not the scale model market. But yes, technically you are correct. :)
Given the number of new releases by Bachmann UK I am still a little bit puzzled. Presumably, the tooling costs, etcetera, to produce a UK loco are, size for size, about the same as that to produce a US loco, yet Bachmann is giving the UK market 4 new steam locos, plus two diesels and an inspection car and has just announced a fifth engine.
Whether railroad modelling is less popular in the US per capita than in the UK or the US is more interested in modern era modelling than the UK (which is mainly still modelling the steam era), or whether there is some other factor or factors at play, I don't know.
http://www.bachmann.co.uk/prod1.php?prod_selected=branchline&prod=3 shows what Bachmann currently or is soon to offer in British OO gauge.
How many scales does Bachmann UK produce compared to Bachmann in the U.S. ?
In British outline, it produces OO and N gauge. Narrow gauge modelling in the UK is something of a minority pursuit and usually follows British outline using kits based on mechanisms 'borrowed' from N or OO/HO. That said, Bachmann's On30 and largescale range is readily available in the UK through a number of retailers.
I am not trying to have a go at Bachmann over this. I assume Bachmann is aware what the demand is, therefore my question is why does there appear to be less demand for steam locos in US HO than there appears to be in British OO.
Bachmann U.S. produces N scale, HO scale, On30, 3 rail O and Large Scale as well as our Thomas the tank and Chuggington products. It is not possible to concentrate on one or two particular scales. It is better business to spread the new items over all the scales.The average is usually at least one steam and one diesel loco a year.
Skar-
I think it may actually be cheaper to build the English models. In looking at the web page you cited, I notice that most of the locos are fairly small, many without tenders. Their sheathing conceals more of the plumbing and appliances than is the case in the US which simplifies tooling, assembly and painting.
-- D
Quote from: Skarloey Railway on September 03, 2013, 03:07:46 PM
Whether railroad modelling is less popular in the US per capita than in the UK or the US is more interested in modern era modelling than the UK (which is mainly still modelling the steam era), or whether there is some other factor or factors at play, I don't know.
In my opinion, the USA has developed a media driven fascination with anything new, anything old is "not as good" no mater how well made. "New stuff is cool, Old stuff is sucky." Words directly out of the mouth of an 18yr old American sitting across from me. Sad, but that about sums up the attitude. (Yes I'm slowly twisting his arm [and brain], and he's learning...slowly)
Quote from: Doneldon on September 04, 2013, 07:05:36 AM
Skar-
I think it may actually be cheaper to build the English models. In looking at the web page you cited, I notice that most of the locos are fairly small, many without tenders. Their sheathing conceals more of the plumbing and appliances than is the case in the US which simplifies tooling, assembly and painting.
-- D
True, UK locos are in the main smaller than US locos, hence why I said 'size for size.' That there is more detail work on US locos with al the exposed pipework is a good point but perhaps offset, at least in part, by the fact that many UK locos have more complicated liveries than most US steam locos.
I think GG1onFordsDTandI may have the answer that interest in RRs is much the same in the UK and the US but we differ in our preference for era and prototype. It's noticeable among Bachmann UK's new and proposed releases in OO that a number of them date from pre-1920, albeit they all had operating lives of thirty plus years, which is reflected in the liveries they are offered in. The same is true of the other big manufacturer in British OO gauge.
UK prototype locos are small but the OO scale models are not. They are modelled at 4mm to the foot while HO is 3.5mm to the foot. If you compare a real UK pacific to real North American pacific, the North American pacific will be noticeably larger in all dimensions. However, due to the different scale used in OO (4mm/ft) and HO (3.5mm/ft) models will be about the same over all size. For example, a OO pacific will be about the same size as an HO pacific.
Yes, UK designers of steam, just as the designers of UK diesels are more concerned about aesthetics than North American designers ever were, with few exceptions. The CPR for example, in later years, designed some quite attractive steam locos while Raymond Loewy designs never really turned mu crank. :)
However, the UK designers concerns over aesthetics was at the expense of loco crew comfort and ease of operation. In a North American locomotive, the locomotive engineer, from his comfortable padded seat, can reach all the controls he generally needs without once standing up, even while running in reverse.
The poor UK driver in his cramped, sometimes very open to the elements cab, would have at most a simple, round, pop-up wooden seat to sit on, controls placed so he had to stand to reach them (which means his seat pops up every time he stands), controls he could not reach while running in reverse, like the brakes, and many other inconveniences unknown to the North American locomotive engineer. Many tank engines, for example, had no seats at all and the crew stood for the entire length of their 8 to 10 hour shift.
Yep, UK locos many look nice and "cute" which is why "Thomas" could never work with North American stream, but for the crews, they were uncomfortable place in which to work.
So, UK models are about the same size as North American models when it comes to tender locomotives and passenger cars but, in many case, models of UK tank locos are larger when stood next to a HO tank loco.
BTW, UK steam models generally have the sound decoder speaker in the smokebox, where the sound is supposed to come from, not in the tender as over here. My UK modeler friends just don't understand why we put the speaker in the tender.
let us also not forget that the us designs, especially with diesels, were durable, reliable, and would run forever with minimal maintainence. reliability was a hugely important selling point, and those builders whose products proved to be shop queens quickly went out of business.
Quote from: jward on September 04, 2013, 10:22:14 PM
let us also not forget that the us designs, especially with diesels, were durable, reliable, and would run forever with minimal maintainence. reliability was a hugely important selling point, and those builders whose products proved to be shop queens quickly went out of business.
Unlike the UK designed and built diesels.
Those Canadian build Class 66s almost went into service straight from the docks. They are now the most common freight diesel in the UK and are also used in several European countries.
they are EMD designs. while there are no direct north American equivalents, they are based on proven components. they would be the equivalent of an sd59, which was never built. the closest equivalent here would probably be the sd30 eco rebuilds for Canadian pacific, or the sd32eco for union pacific.
Quote from: rogertra on September 04, 2013, 06:43:59 PM
BTW, UK steam models generally have the sound decoder speaker in the smokebox, where the sound is supposed to come from, not in the tender as over here. My UK modeler friends just don't understand why we put the speaker in the tender.
Roger-
I agree that the smoke box is the ideal place for a speaker but the smaller scale of HO makes it hard to get one of any size in there. So we fill the smoke box and boiler with lead to increase traction. Also, UK locos tend to have larger boilers and smoke boxes because many of them are tank locos. The combination of scale and style make it much easier to get a reasonably-sized speaker where it belongs.
What puzzles me is that speakers aren't in the smoke boxes of larger scale locomotives where there's plenty of space.
-- D
Quote from: jward on September 04, 2013, 11:09:06 PM
they are EMD designs. while there are no direct north American equivalents, they are based on proven components. they would be the equivalent of an sd59, which was never built. the closest equivalent here would probably be the sd30 eco rebuilds for Canadian pacific, or the sd32eco for union pacific.
jward.
Actually, the UK class 66 is based on the SD40/SD-2 and uses radial trucks with dual cabs and a car body designed to fit into the tight UK loading gauge.
Having excellent reliability, way better than competing UK designs which they rapidly supplanted, made class 66s very unpopular with UK rail fans as they brought about the demise of popular UK diesels. However, they did wonders for the struggling UK rail freight traffic. They were also initial unpopular with drivers (engineers) as they complained the cab was noisy, cold and draughty in the winter and too hot in the summer. The seating arrangement was also criticized.
BTW, from practical experience of many cab rides, I know you can hold a conversation in the cab of the traditional UK diesels without raising your voice. Sound levels were almost a quiet as in passenger cars unlike North American diesel cabs which are quite loud. It's thought the London, Ontario manufacturers assumed that UK drivers would be used to the same noise levels as found in North American cabs. Complaints must have come as a surprise, especially when the driver's union was considering a ban on the class 66s until all the problems were fixed. :)
Changes were made. The cabs were isolated from the bodies by using rubber mounts, air leaks were filled and draughts eliminated, seat changed and a/c installed in the cabs.
Class 66s are now some of the most popular freight units in many European countries and not just in the UK.
the earlier class 59 were the sd40-2 equivalents. the class66uses a 12 cylinder 710 engine instead of the sd40-2's 16 cylinder 645. 12-710s are rare on this side of the pond, only rebuilds and the ns gp59 use them in rail service. the horsepower rating is similar with 4 fewer cylinders in the 710, plus they are a much cleaner running engine than the old 645s.
I agree about the noise levels. you should have heard the old u25b, those were deafening to the point of drowning out the other units in the consist. they were even loud at idle.
The locos I couldn't afford in brass in 1969 are appearing now in plastic at the 1969 prices.
I think the new plastic locos are better runners than the 1969 brass ones were anyway.
Only have to wait 40 years or more.
Les