I've just set up my layout after a few design changes based upon advise from jward and Doneldon (thanks again, guys) Anyway, I'm using Bachmann EZ track with 18r curves and the left and right corresponding turnouts. I have a C&O 2-8-0 locomotive and a GP40 (I think) Santa Fe diesel. The locomotive is derailing upon entering the turnouts. Not every time, mind you, just here and there. The Santa Fe diesel rolls right through and has never had a problem. The turnouts are at each end of the full curve, and turnout in question is a left turnout as the locomotive approaches from a long straight section about to make the curve. I've noticed that its 'catching' on the two small guide wheels at the front.
Any idea on what I should look for, especially since it's maybe 1 in 3 instances on average. I'm sure its a simple thing but I'm a 54 year old rookie in railroad modeling.
Doneldon - the 28 month old grandson literally screamed with joy when he saw the two trains running when he got here this morning. Every penny I've invested was justified in that moment.
Do you have an HO NMRA Standards Gauge, among your train tools?
jbrock27,
No I don't have one. I'm pretty much starting from the ground up. Everything is new if that matters.
You may need to lightly file the the outside edges of the points. Also if this layout is just to entertain a 3 year old you may want to consider removing the offending guide wheels.
Joe323
Thank you for the tip. I'm assuming its the black plastic piece in the center you refer to
And no, the layout isn't just to entertain him. This 54 year old boy is going to enjoy as well
I would purchase one then 8star as it has many uses from being used to trouble shoot turnouts (switches) as well as wheels on freight cars and locomotives. My advice, before you go filing things, since you have not done this before, is to purchase a gauge and check all the wheels first, on everything you have. Anything not in gauge, adjust if possible and if not possible to adjust, get rid of it and replace if practical. The gauge will come with directions on how to check wheels as well as turnouts.
I know Joe gives the filing advice, the first time out of the gate, traditionally.
since you're new to railroading, maybe some definitions are in order.....
turnout and switch refer to the same thing. turnout is generally used by model railroaders, and the engineering department on the railroad. the operating crews on the railroad refer to it as a switch......
looking at the switch from narrow end, the first thing you'll see are the moveable rails which determine which track the train follows. these moveable rails are the points. the rails they butt against are the stock rails. the bar which moves the points is the throwbar.
moving further along. the points are hinged, and the rail continues. these inner rails beyond the hinge points are closure rails. they meet at a device called a frog, which allows the rails to cross each other. on the stock rails, right across from the frog, are two guard rails, which are beveled on the ends. the guard rails purpose is to pull the wheels away from the point of the frog and prevent derailments.
familiarize yourself with these tems, as any advice given on fixing problems will refer to the parts by these names.
jbrock, thanks again for your advice. The thing is that the only issue (the few times it happens) is the 280 loco. The GP40 diesel has no issues entering or leaving the turnout and neither do any of the cars, which are of various sizes (I haven't paid attention to the actual scale like 50' boxcars and so forth)
jward, thanks for the definitions. I figured turnout was the better terminology on here. The points are clarified. From what has been mentioned, I'm thinking it's the frog. For clarity, my layout is a modest 5'x8' (It's on the 'General Discussion - Show us your layout" pg 30). jward has seen it in fact and pointed out design issues that would be troublesome for me. Anyway, there is a lower line which is basically a full curve at each end (18r) with five 9' straights down the sides. The upper loop has a turnout on each side of one full curve to finish the curve.
This evening before I logged on here, I ran both trains switching between both levels. The GP40 never had an issue and the 280 loco did just fine on the lower loop. On the upper loop entering the turnout (which is the straight section of the turnout) is where it has difficulty from time to time. On the other side it enters the turnout on the straight section as well to continue up the upper loop. I've checked my connections, but the thing that baffles me is the GP40 has never derailed. Also, the obvious short kills the Dynamis wireless remote and nearly every time if I hit the stop button, it takes off again.
I've temporarily secured the track with T-pins so it won't move around so I can test everything out before gluing the track down. It was suggested on another post for me to add feeders at a few other places, which makes sense to me. Is it possible it is a very subtle power loss, at least on the turnout the furthest from the transformer?
I really appreciate the help that is for sure.
Quote from: 8stargazer on October 15, 2013, 03:40:53 PM
Doneldon - the 28 month old grandson literally screamed with joy when he saw the two trains running when he got here this morning. Every penny I've invested was justified in that moment.
Lonnie-
I understand 100%.
You say your 2-8-0 is derailing on a turnout from time to time. Since you are only experiencing derailments with this loco at this point of your layout it's reasonable to believe the problem rests with the turnout, the loco or both.
It would be easier for us to help you if we knew more about the locomotive, things like manufacturer, model number, age,
etc. Absent that information, I'll take a stab at coming up with a solution, or at least some
possible solutions.
I'll make an educated guess that it's the two-wheeled pilot truck which derails. If so, there are several possible problems. First, as others have mentioned, the wheels may be out of gauge. The easiest way to check is to use an NMRA standards gauge. You can see one and a short video on how to use it here:
http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/consist.html
This is a basic tool which you'll use much more than you might expect. Of course, it will take at least a week to 10 days to get one unless you are lucky enough to have a good local hobby shop. Most of us don't, due to changing hobby preferences and the Internet. You can limp by without a standards gauge if you have a good caliper. If you have or can borrow one, the distance between the inside faces of the wheels should be .573", +.002", -.007". If the wheels are out of gauge, remove the pony truck from the loco and adjust the wheels by turning and pulling or pushing them.
My best guess is that your pony truck is popping off the rails because it is missing a spring which would help hold it on the rails or it is just a bit too light to make the switch at anything more than dead slow. I suggest an inspection to see if something is missing. You can also try adding a bit of weight to the truck. You can usually glue some lead sheet, BBs or small fishing weights to the top of the truck. Make sure that anything you add doesn't contact the underside of the loco or interfere with the truck's movement.
Let's look at some less likely potential problems.
If your loco is an older one, the flanges on your wheels may be so oversize that they are bottoming out in the turnout. However, I tend to doubt this problem because Bachmann EZTrack is Code 100, which can handle most older, large flanges. Plus, you aren't experiencing problems at other points of the layout.
There might be some plastic flash or something stuck in the turnout's flangeways which are causing the derailments. I doubt this is the problem because you aren't having trouble with other equipment. However, it can't hurt and it won't take much time to do a careful inspection of the turnout, under good light.
Last, what a couple of others have mentioned about your points may, indeed, be your problem. However, I can't advise a new modeler to start filing those points because we're talking about some quite small mechanical parts with little room for error in adjustment. It would be worth doing a careful inspection of the points to see if they rebound after they're thrown or if the tips are bent. I'd return the turnout to the place you purchased it if you find a defective manufacturing issue like this.
-- D
SG,
Try taking your front (pilot) wheels off to see if you have anymore problems. I have heard of them picking the points on the standard turnouts. If it does not derail after they are removed try adding a little weight until the derailing stops. Just another possibility that can be the problem.
I don't think I ever had problem with any GP's derailing unless it was my error.
Doneldon,
He has the Dynamis set that came with a 2-8-0 that was suggested on his other thread.
Jerry
ok when you derail are you entering the switch from the point end or the frog end?
Doneldon, Jerry,
Again thank you for the advice and suggestions. The loco is indeed a new 2-8-0, as well as the Dynamis control system, the track, and rolling stock. I'm building from the ground up with this HO layout. I had a Lionel 027 set and I bought used items on ebay to build that layout and had all sorts of issues, especially with the older track and turnouts. HO is relatively inexpensive so after previous experience, I'm sticking with new 'out of the box' products. I might add used rolling stock in the future, but that would be my only exception.
Doneldon, you are correct regarding a new modeler filing on contacts. I'm a self-employed cabinet maker by trade and I certainly wouldn't turn a new hire loose on doing something precise as this.
I'm really thinking it is the pilot wheels and I honestly wondered if the loco is too light in the front to hit the turnout correctly. Again I point out, it is an occasional derailment and most of the time I don't have to realign it, the loco will resume on its on when I press the stop button on the remote. I will add a little weight and see how that goes. By the way, it is the two wheel pilot truck.
I examined the two turnouts in question and compared them with the two that haven't had this problem. The points engage properly when I switch them and I don't see any debris, flaws, etc in the turnouts. The switch mechanism works just fine. And the GP40 has never derailed. I removed the 2-8-0 and ran the GP40 for a considerable amount of time with about 8 cars behind it of various lengths and had no problem. In my mind, this eliminated issues with the turnouts themselves.
jward- It enters from the point on one end heading from the straight section into the full curve (biggest occurrence of derailments are at this one) and at the other end of the full curve it enters the frog end heading into the straight section (least occurrence of derailment)
If adding weight doesn't help, I will remove the two wheels altogether and see how that goes. I know it would take a way a bit of 'realism' but they are pretty small and the only reason I notice them is because they insist on being noticed at the turnouts in question.
I live pretty much in the geographic center of Texas and the closest hobby shop is in Ft Worth-2 1/2 hours or Austin 2 1/2 hours away. My laptop is my nearest hobby shop in these parts, which pretty much satisfies what I need. I travel a lot with my business and next time I'm through the DFW area I do plan to make a stop at a hobby store that is focused on model railroading.
Thanks again everyone. At least I'm not frustrated with the problem. I just want to remove the problem as anyone would and have a smooth operation here.
Lonnie
You're welcome 8star.
See Doneldon, Jward and Jerry's advice, it is often very good.
Jerry, do you know how come the pilot's wheels tend to do that, if the cause is not due to their being out of gauge? Thanks.
-others
wheels picking the points and derailing is a pretty common problem, which can be solved by what others have said here. derailing coming into the frog is pretty rare, especially from the direction you are stating.
are you sure when it derails at the frog that is where the problem is? what i mean by that is that sometimes wheel flanges can ride the tops of the rails for some distance before they drop off. if this is the case here, find where the flanges climb on top the rail and you've most likely found the problem spot.
one possible problem here is that the wheels may be out of guage. that's what i'd checque first. then, i'd start looking at the track, starting at the frog and working my way back.
I take it then, it is a common problem bc either there is not enough weight over these pilot wheels or they are missing components that allow them to travel properly? I am asking so I can understand, since I never experienced this problem, never having this kind of locomotive.
As a reminder, as I stated above, the NMRA Standard Gauge is also useful for checking and troubleshooting the various components of a turnout. The instructions can be found on-line (as Doc alluded to) and they come with the Gauge, in paper form.
Lonnie-
There actually were many,many 0-8-0s although they weren't simply Connies which lost their pony trucks.
The issue isn't simply insufficient weight in the front end; it's specifically a lack of weight or spring pressure on the pilot truck. Years ago, when many (most?) steam engines were brass, this wasn't much of a problem because the brass truck and metal wheels and axlewere heavy enough to hold the pilot truck on the rails. Some of those old locos also had springs so they tracked pretty well, at least in that regard. Today's plastic trucks and wheels just don't have the brawn to adhere well to the tracks. That's why so many need a bit of weight.
Jeff-
As I'm sure you know, it cab be very difficult to see exactly where something is derailing because the loco or rolling stock itself blocks the view. In my experience, this is especially true with locomotives because we can't push them through a turnout due to fact that their wheels don't turn except under power and it's usually too much of a pain in the patoo to disengage the drive train just to push the loco through the offending turnout. I purchased one of Micro-Mark's lucite flatcars which I find very useful for inspecting suspected track problems.
jb-
I agree about the utility of the NMRA track standards gauge. I think I measure with it more than any other tool except a tape measure.
-- D
The wheels being out of gauge is the first item on the checklist for this type of problem. If you don't have access to a caliper and/or until you can obtain an NMRA gauge, you might try holding the pilot truck wheels up against the wheels of the diesel flange to flange and see there is any visible difference, either too wide or too narrow. The fact, as I read things, that the steamer is the only culprit pretty much exempts the turnouts themselves from being the issue.
Thanks for the info Doc on the pilots. Yes, I have found the Gauge indispensable and questioned why I did not purchase one much sooner! That and the Kadee coupler Height Gauge are 2 of my best "train tools".
Sounds like Blind Squirrel might have been onto something here ;)
jb'
the derailment problem at the points is common more because most manufacturers do not make their switchpoints sharop enough, or hide them from the wheels. building my own track I can eliminate this problem by a: filing my points sharp enough to cut my finger and b: filing a notch in the stock rail for the point to hide in.
it has been my experience that most out of the box switches have blunt ends on the points that need to be beveled, no notch in the stock rail, and possibly loose points which flop around on the throwbar.
don,
finding track defects my way requires a bright light, and running the locomotive back and forth through the problem area slowly. with the wheels well lit, you can often see the flanges climb the rail. at that point I've found there is almost always a problem like narrow guage, or a twist in the track. another problem arises from burrs on the rail, which you sometimes find om the ends of the track sections. for this reason, I always lightly file the ends of every piece of rail before it is laid down. it only takes a couple of seconds to do a section of track, and greatly lowers the derailment potential.
I finally got to examine the situation this evening since my grandson went home and I didn't have to entertain him while the train was running. Here is what I discovered. It went around all the turnouts quite well for about 3 rounds. It then derailed on the 4th pass around. I got it going again then diverted it to the lower level toward the back, where I have an access area from below. It derailed on the only turnout there and here is what I discovered. As I got it back on the track and without powering it up again, I slid it back and forth over the turnout. It was on the straight section of the turnout. And even thought the 8 wheels don't move freely, they will slide on straight track. I noticed that it was like hitting a bump when it crossed over the frog, which I think I'm correct in the term frog. It is that black plastic area in the middle of the turnout that allows the wheels to 'jump' over the merge. I noticed the main wheels were causing the problem, not the 2 guide wheels in the front. They simply floated over it. As someone said earlier, it is difficult to see clearly with the HO size and all.
I removed the loco and noticed there is significant 'play' in the 1st, 2nd, and 4th wheel from the front to back. The third wheel didn't have quite as much play and I determined that it was the actual drive wheel (Am I correct. I put the loco back on the track and slid it over the turnout again and with a flashlight, I noticed the front - main wheel wasn't seating in the groove of the frog for the wheels to travel over. I pressed it toward me from the other side and it went through smoothly. I'd say the play is about 1/8" - 3/16". The loco went around quite smoothly after that, but it eventually derailed again, which would make sense with going through curves and so forth. At least I've identified the problem.
In the long run, I can probably deal with this time to time issue since as I expand in the future, I will be adding diesel engines to the layout. This loco came with the Dynamis set I purchased to get into the DCC world, plus the little grandson loves the 'choo-choo' sounds better.
I'll be out of town for a couple of days and other than my iphone, I won't be logging on until I get back. Thanks for all of the advice so far and the additional discussions on here have increased my knowledge as well.
Lonnie
heres also what makes them derail check for foam packing under the loco its black and sometimes u dont even know its there. it happened to me :-\
Lonnie-
Actually, all of the drive wheels drive the loco. One pair is driven by the motor
and drive train and then the rest are driven by the side rods.
-- D
Thank you for the add'l info Jeff.
BTW, I just came across your tutorial thread about how to eliminate "S"curves, from December 2012 and saved it. Very straightforward and easy to understand. Thanks.
I am having the exact same problem as 8stargazer with the same loco. I also bought the Dyanamis set with the 2-8-0 C&O loco. It is driving me crazy. I also purchased a diesel that runs fine. The wheels have been checked with a gauge, but my model train store guy(I'm lucky enough to have a great store nearby) thought the pilot wheels where not putting enough pressure. He tried to fix it and it worked for a while, but it must have loosened up again.
I am also new to model railroading. Is it expected that these issues should occur on a brand new locomotive? This is on top of the flourescent light issue I have and the fact that the signal cuts out from time to time (I have a small 4x6 layout so I can't be too far away).
I'm using easy track to keep everything Bachmann consistent.
The main cause of derailments is careless track laying.
This can be: -
1) Rail joiners not correctly used. If a rail is not correctly slid into the joiner, it can result in one rail being higher than the other.
2) Track not laid flat but with built in twists. In other words, track not laid on a flat surface.
3) Poorly laid curves that are not correctly aligned but laid with kinks in the curves.
With well laid track, the pressure spring over the pilot truck is not needed. I remove all mine and have no issues and I have some 30 steam loco models ranging from Bachmann 2-6-0, Spectrum 4-6-0 (two types), 2-8-0, 4-8-2 (Heavy and light), Athearn 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 and kit bashed IHC 2-10-2s and none have the trucks springs and none derail. Well, not very often and then it's usually my fault. :)
Using "Easy Track" with Bachmann locomotives doesn't make any difference. I've hand laid track and used Atlas Code 83 flex track. The brand of track makes little difference, it's the care you take when laying it that counts.
So, first thing to do with any derailment is to double and triple check your track laying and make sure it's perfect.
Cheers
Roger T.
Roger,
Thanks for you quick response. I will check my layout; there are some points where it is not sitting flat on the board.
IF you have a switch track issue with one certain loco or car ,it is not a switch problem ,it is the car or the engine ,the wheels that are catching need to be checked in there spread from each other or properly called the gauge , if you do not have a gauge , you can measure the wheel spread on the good engine or cars that does not have problems with the switch with a pop sickle stick and notch it with a blade from the distance between the Inside of the wheels ,do a accurate notch ,then compair it to the car or loco that has the issues. THEN REMOVE the wheel set and adjust in or out ,press or pull .Common for some to be out of gauge,But when you get it right you get rid of a lot of the banging noise through the switches crosses ect.. Hope this HELPS,put away the file until you gauge your wheels or you will probably create another issue .
Jack