I'm modeling in HO steam engines. I'd like to get freight cars from the 20's, 30's, 40's period. All cars that I see advertised are modern day. Where can I find cars from the period that I am modeling?
Athearn, Bowsor, and Bachman just to name a few companies that have cars 30s and 40s. 40 foot cars, cattle cars, box cars, flat cars Gondolas, tank cars. It is not so much the cars that you need to watch for it is how are they painted. A 1940 box car might have a paint job in 1960 that would not work for a 1940 car. All box cars most have roof walks.
You can go to EBay; for better or worse. Most decent cars will have a date printed on the side of the car so you can tell when it was built or new, if you are not able to identify its era otherwise. Be sure to look closely at the merchandise listed and ask any questions you feel is warranted. Avoid Sellers that won't or don't like answering questions and those that have poor Feedback due to a history of misreps or poorly packed merchandise.
I am finding more and more know very little if anything about what they are selling-most likely tag, garage, yard and estate sale hawks who bought a car for a $1.00 or a loco for $5.00 and think they can sell them on EBay for $10 and $50. The best is when they list silver colored track as "nickel silver" ::)
Many will show up here, asking how much a train set they just picked up, is worth; probably bc they bought it for $10 thinking they can resell it for $300 :D
If old trains had value I'd be a millionaire!
Seriously look for old Athearn kits - also a company named Bev-Bel used Athearn cars to customize.
Kadee has nice older equipment - just save your pennies to buy one!
For the 1920's-1940's I would recommend mostly wood-side boxcars. Accurail makes a few types of wood-side type boxcars and reefers, WalthersMainline released some 40ft wood-side outside braced boxcars that are good cars (as far as how they run and they era you want) as well as 40ft gondola cars in several roadnames that match the line of boxcars, both of which aren't very expensive. I got 2 of the boxcars for about $22 each and the gondolas for about $20 each from Walthers. As stated before, Athearn and Bachmann are also good places to go for cars from the era you want. Athearn makes good steel side boxcars that would have been around in the years shortly after WWII and some wood-side boxcars under their ready to roll line and a lot of wood-side stuff under their Roundhouse banner in 34ft and 40ft varieties. Bachmann makes steel-side cars that (again) would have been around shortly after WWII because after the war all wood boxcars were modified by the railroads by replacing the wood planking on the sides with steel plates.
If you want something special, model the NYC PaceMaker freight train. NYC started this freight train around 1946. Pulled by a Niagara 4-8-2.
Specially painted freight cars and a caboose made from a 40 ft freight car. The NYC Pacemaker caboose versions were low profile and had plywood sides. I have the brass one. That will be hard to find. To my knowledge, a plastic version was not made. There is a plastic NYC caboose made for that era but not the Pacemeaker version.
You can find the cars on ebay. I have about thirty of them with different numbers. One issue, slightly different colors depending on the manufacturer.
I think the NYC ran the freights in 90 car sets.
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/NYC%20Freight%20cars/Pacemakercabooseboxcar.jpg) (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/richg1998/media/NYC%20Freight%20cars/Pacemakercabooseboxcar.jpg.html)
Rich
I would also pay attention to the road names on the rolling stock. The classic "fallen flags" often date from the mid-to late steam era. Do some on-line research with the various railroad technical and historical societies. Also look at books that cover the era - look behind the locos at the rolling stock that are in the trains. Vintage videos from the steam era will also give you a decent handle as well.
Quote from: richg on October 21, 2013, 12:08:41 PM
If you want something special, model the NYC PaceMaker freight train. NYC started this freight train around 1946. Pulled by a Niagara 4-8-2.
Rich-
I think the Central called their Mountains (4-8-2) Mohawks. The Niagaras were what the Central called their 4-8-4 Northerns.
-- D
Quote from: Doneldon on October 21, 2013, 09:36:55 PM
Quote from: richg on October 21, 2013, 12:08:41 PM
If you want something special, model the NYC PaceMaker freight train. NYC started this freight train around 1946. Pulled by a Niagara 4-8-2.
Rich-
I think the Central called their Mountains (4-8-2) Mohawks. The Niagaras were what the Central called their 4-8-4 Northerns.
-- D
You are correct Don. The NYC called the 4-8-2 locomotives Mohawks and the 4-8-4 locomotives Niagaras. Most railroads called 4-8-4's Northerns and 4-8-2's Mountains. But some did have different names for some wheel arrangements (i.e. Golden States on the Southern Pacific, Poconos on the Lakawana, Niagaras on the NYC, Confederations on the Canadian National).
Central Valley, Funaro & Camerlengo, and Tichy all make some very nice kits for a variety of freight cars from the period your talking about. Ready to run you'll find them from Bachmann, Bowser, Accurail, Mantua, Con-Cor, and Model Power to name just a few.
In the 20's, 30's, and early 40's the cars will predominately be in the 36' to 40' size range. 50' box cars started showing up in the 30's, mainly for shipping automobiles. But they didn't become real common until the 40's, when more capacity was needed due to WW-II.
Len
Quote from: Doneldon on October 21, 2013, 09:36:55 PM
Quote from: richg on October 21, 2013, 12:08:41 PM
If you want something special, model the NYC PaceMaker freight train. NYC started this freight train around 1946. Pulled by a Niagara 4-8-2.
Rich-
I think the Central called their Mountains (4-8-2) Mohawks. The Niagaras were what the Central called their 4-8-4 Northerns.
The CNR may have called 4-8-4s "Confederations" (And BTW had more of them than all the other North American railroads combined) but everone called the "Northerns".
I think Roundhouse makes some very nice cars from that era..in particular wood sided billboard reefers.
Quote from: rogertra on October 22, 2013, 03:57:08 PM
The CNR may have called 4-8-4s "Confederations" (And BTW had more of them than all the other North American railroads combined) but everone called the "Northerns".
Roger-
I don't think this is correct. The CN did have the largest 4-8-4 roster but it was no where near larger than the total Northern roster in the States. The best number I could find for the CN was 203, with a couple more on the CP, 45 on the GTW and 5 on the ON. Thus, there were about 255 Confederation locomotives rostered in Canada. There were 108 4-8-4s rostered in the US. Even allowing for used loco sales and renumbering, there were several times as many 4-8-4s in the US as in Canada.
-- D
River City Railroad has some nice shake the box kits. 36 ft, 40ft, 50ft rolling stock. Easy to put together with a little plastic glue. I have used MEK with proper ventilation. I like MEK because it dries quickly.
I have bought from them. Steam era.
You need to add wheels to the trucks and couplers to the cars. I buy machined metal wheels in a bunch and Kadee couplers.
I don't like the Kadee sintered metal wheels or plastic wheels.
You have to add some weight to the car.
Some are unusual road names.
Rich
Re: The total number of 4-8-4's - This site http://www.steamlocomotive.com/northern/ says there were 1,126 of them in North America. Subtracting out the 203 in Canada leaves 923 in the lower 48. I think the statement that the CN rostered more 4-8-4's than any other single railroad would be a correct statement.
Quote from: ebtnut on October 23, 2013, 01:29:21 PM
Re: The total number of 4-8-4's - This site http://www.steamlocomotive.com/northern/ says there were 1,126 of them in North America. Subtracting out the 203 in Canada leaves 923 in the lower 48. I think the statement that the CN rostered more 4-8-4's than any other single railroad would be a correct statement.
ebt-
Yes. as I stated ("CN did have the largest 4-8-4 roster "). However, Roger's post said "more of them than
all the
other North American railroads
combined." Also, there were more than 203 Confederation/Northerns in Canada because the CP, GTW and ON all had some. There were also a couple on the NdeM.
-- D
My apologies, obviously I mis-remembered stats. Yes, CNR had the largest single fleet.
However, even though the CNR did have the largest roster of 4-8-4s, the hopes of an American (Chinese) company ever producing an affordable Canadian steam loco, a 4-8-4 or anything else, has about as much chance of happening as finding a snowball in Hell.
Now, if it was an obscure or rare American 4-8-4, they'll be all over it. ;)
Right Mr. B?
Roger-
I think you are correct in your opinion that an affordable Canadian steam locomotive is unlikely to happen. And merely adapting an American prototype for a Canadian loco would be a lot of work, whether it is done by a manufacturer or an individual modeler. The all-weather cabs alone would present significant, expensive challenges.
-- D
Quote from: Doneldon on October 27, 2013, 07:37:59 AM
Roger-
I think you are correct in your opinion that an affordable Canadian steam locomotive is unlikely to happen. And merely adapting an American prototype for a Canadian loco would be a lot of work, whether it is done by a manufacturer or an individual modeler. The all-weather cabs alone would present significant, expensive challenges.
-- D
This is why I freelanced. I would have loved to have modelled the CPR in the mid 1950s, with CNR interchange, but with the complete pack of accurate Canadian steam at Bachmann Spectrum prices, it was impossible. And no people, the Bachmann 2-6-0, nor any Bachmann steam loco lettered for Canadian Pacific or Canadian National doesn't count, they're not accurate. But then again, until very recently, in the past couple of years, even accurate Canadian RTR diesels were almost impossible to come by. Almost all of them were just re-lettered and painted into Canadian colours models of American prototype diesels. Not the same. Canadian diesels have subtle differences between the American model and the Canadian model.
Quote from: Woody Elmore on October 21, 2013, 08:04:53 AM
If old trains had value I'd be a millionaire!
Seriously look for old Athearn kits - also a company named Bev-Bel used Athearn cars to customize.
Kadee has nice older equipment - just save your pennies to buy one!
A few weeks back I watched a plastic HO bobber caboose get bid up to $202.00. Sometimes they have more value than you realize.
As for the OP, there are plenty of steam era items available from multiple manufacturers. Accurail and Bowser are probably the most readily available/least expensive lines.
I am not sure that kinda price speaks to value as much as it does to a mentality.
I have come across bidders who have all of 16 purchased items to their name, yet have 200+ bid retractions in a 6 months time period. In my opinion, these are the kind of jokers who should be banned from bidding on auction sites.
I like and second Accurail kits.
Quote from: lvrr325 on November 01, 2013, 07:11:31 AM
A few weeks back I watched a plastic HO bobber caboose get bid up to $202.00. Sometimes they have more value than you realize.
lvrr-
This only goes to prove that some people have a whole lot more money than
intelligence, judgment or common sense. There are no plastic bobber cabooses
worth more than $10, with shipping. Honest to goodness, this kind of thing
makes me crazy.
-- D
I was recently watching one of those auction buyer shows and in the locker were trains. The guy who purchased the contents discovers a big box of HO trains. He looks at the camera and says "Old trains are worth a lot of money. There are collectors out there who pay top dollar!" As he said that he picked up what looked to be a caboose/crane tender car. It was grey and he read on the side "Virginia and Truckee." All I could think of was the last train show I went to - there was a club selling HO freight cars from an estate at five for ten dollars. By the end of the day the cars were a buck each.
I missed the $202 dollar bobber caboose - I'm sure that it was "rare" and "vintage."
The first HO kit I ever bought was an Athearn 50 foot double door box car - lettered for the SP. It was $1.59 - retail. It had trucks that had to be assembled and had a rubber insert in place of springs. My first HO project ever was getting springs to replace the rubber insert.
There was an discount outfit in Manhattan that advertised for years. They sold three sets of Athearn trucks - assembled (each pair in a little white box) for a buck. The store wasn't too far from the original Barnes and Noble book store. Being in college I would go to B&N and then to the discount store - I think it was called America's Hobby Center. It was basically the second floor of a warehouse. They had mountains of stuff but there was no browsing. You told the guy at the door what you wanted and they brought it out. That store, Madison Hardware, the American Flyer and Lionel exhibits and Polks on Fifth Avenue used to make an interesting trip to Manhattan.
Now I'm going to ebay to see if they have any rare, vintage $150 flat cars
What is interesting on Ebay is how many rare, vintage, hard to find cars and locomotive you see. The funny part is they may have five or six selling the same thing.
I see several "rare" items all the time. I once owned an original Varney Old Lady and Casey Jones ten wheeler - the originals with the Pittman motor. I often look at the current prices to see the variation in asking price. Varney turned them out in the Thousands; then Life Like took over. Then Bowser brought out an updated version using some Bowser parts because they didn't get all the tooling. To make a long story short these old Varney engines are hardly rare but to read some of the ads they are as rare as snakes in Ireland.
A couple of other things to watch for: Trucks. trucks of 1920 to 1940 do not have roller bearings. this will be characterized by the "flap" over the journal box, which is meant to be lifted for greasing. The other thing you might watch for are the wheels. If you want to stay on the safe side, wheels with the grooves in the backs of them-called ribbed-indicate trucks of an earlier order. Kadee catalogues these trucks, both in sprung and equalized. For my money, I use sprung trucks; probably the psychological effect on me.
As was previously mentioned, the "BLT" date on the side is a giveaway also. Box cars, as well as gons, came in all shapes and sizes, and a variety of materials was used in their construction.
Rich C.
When is comes to steam era freight, I like to choose rolling stock that was long lasting, so it fits in numerous decades.
For instance, I recently built a kit of an M-27 Box car. These cars were first built in 1926 and went to various upgrades over the years, surviving into the 1960s. Hence the car will also look right in early diesel operations as well.
Speaking of trucks: as EWK mentioned, around 1940 railroads switched from the older trucks (Andrews, Arch Bar and the like) to the AAR and Bettendorf style. So the newer trucks will also fit in steam, as long as your modeling the later steam period.
Look for cars that have a roof walk and 50-ton trucks. Stronger trucks appeared after steam went away.
Here's a few shots of my M-27d:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN3042_zpsb91126d9.jpg) (http://s642.photobucket.com/user/jsnvogel/media/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN3042_zpsb91126d9.jpg.html)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN3031_zps4afcdc7a.jpg) (http://s642.photobucket.com/user/jsnvogel/media/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN3031_zps4afcdc7a.jpg.html)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN3061_zpsd7207abe.jpg) (http://s642.photobucket.com/user/jsnvogel/media/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN3061_zpsd7207abe.jpg.html)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN3066_zpscf203f57.jpg) (http://s642.photobucket.com/user/jsnvogel/media/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN3066_zpscf203f57.jpg.html)
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN3047_zps8c2bc816.jpg) (http://s642.photobucket.com/user/jsnvogel/media/Rolling%20Stock/DSCN3047_zps8c2bc816.jpg.html)
Quote from: Doneldon on November 01, 2013, 08:55:51 AM
Quote from: lvrr325 on November 01, 2013, 07:11:31 AM
A few weeks back I watched a plastic HO bobber caboose get bid up to $202.00. Sometimes they have more value than you realize.
lvrr-
This only goes to prove that some people have a whole lot more money than
intelligence, judgment or common sense. There are no plastic bobber cabooses
worth more than $10, with shipping. Honest to goodness, this kind of thing
makes me crazy.
-- D
I agree. Sometimes I will put something that has an utterly ridiculously high "opening bid" on my "Watch" list just to see if anyone goes for it.
It has a little of the same fascination to it, as watching a wreck.
Quote from: jbrock27 on November 04, 2013, 01:26:40 PM
It has a little of the same fascination to it, as watching a wreck.
Where do people get the idea that some of this stuff is worth so much?
I can understand it with something that does seem to be unusual and fairly rare, such as the Rivarossi Lincoln car, but some of this other stuff? ???
Quote from: Johnson Bar Jeff on November 05, 2013, 12:28:09 PM
Where do people get the idea that some of this stuff is worth so much?
J-J:
They read one Christmas season that some guy who was in financial distress and nearly suicidal because he couldn't give his kids a Christmas found his old Lionel set in a corner of his basement and sold it for enough that he could afford the best Christmas ever.
Ergo, every old train ever sold is worth a million bucks. Toss in plain old wishful thinking and a residual belief from childhood that there are treasures out there just for the finding and it's pretty easy to see where the thinking is coming from.
-- D
I don't know why JBJ ???
Doc's explanation is as good as any I have heard.
Maybe in some cases, it has to do something with greed perhaps, or for some, it is like trying to run a con.
Jim-
I'm sure there are a few folks who are hoping to make a killing with an old train sale, whether or not the trains have any actual value, but I think there aren't so many of those folks. For one thing, selling a $10 car for $150 really doesn't offer much reward for the risk and effort. I think most folks are just a little greedy and looking to make a great sale because it would be cool to do so. That's sort of like greed but I think it's mainly wishful thinking.
-- D
Well they are like some voters. If some one says it, its bound to be true. I think we have gone so far off of the subject (freight cars of the 40s and 50s) that we ought to shut it down.
Quote from: ejseider on October 20, 2013, 10:01:15 PM
I'm modeling in HO steam engines. I'd like to get freight cars from the 20's, 30's, 40's period. All cars that I see advertised are modern day. Where can I find cars from the period that I am modeling?
Roundhouse/Athearn and Accurail are good bets.
Bachmann too,,the tankers, 40ft box , the coal hoppers, crane cars, could be from the 40's,,
But then again who sez you can't run modern cars with steam ? I think someone forgot to tell Union Pacific about that.
Enjoy the video to see what I mean
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgHrDbN4EU
jbsmith, I know someone who scoffs at running modern cars with steam ;)
RAM, take it easy, it's all under control, no reason to shut the thread down. Just some good dialog here.
Doc, your point is well taken. But while it is not much one item at a time, if someone is doing that multiple times and over the course of time, then it adds up. The cumulative effect.
Quote from: jbrock27 on November 06, 2013, 01:10:09 PM
jbsmith, I know someone who scoffs at running modern cars with steam ;)
As I believe in era accuracy, even though I freelance, I do not believe in running out of era equipment on my GER.
So you'll not see Technotoasters pulling 36 foot single sheath box cars nor will you see 2-6-0s pulling cryogenic reefers.
But that's my choice. If other people want to do that more power to them, even if it's not accurate.
The 'KL&B Eastern Lines Railroad Museum' on my layout is located on a 35 mile spur the Class-I was getting ready to abandon and tear up. So deals were made, and agreements struck, so now the KL&B gets financing for the museum by halling freight dropped off by the Class-I to the businesses on the spur that might otherwise have had to shut down.
On any given day you might see a Light Mikado or a Consolidation hauling spine cars to the lumber yard, or modern box cars to one of the factories, you never know.
Quote from: Doneldon on November 05, 2013, 05:45:51 PM
Quote from: Johnson Bar Jeff on November 05, 2013, 12:28:09 PM
Where do people get the idea that some of this stuff is worth so much?
J-J:
They read one Christmas season that some guy who was in financial distress and nearly suicidal because he couldn't give his kids a Christmas found his old Lionel set in a corner of his basement and sold it for enough that he could afford the best Christmas ever. Ergo, every old train ever sold is worth a million bucks. Toss in plain old wishful thinking and a residual belief from childhood that there are treasures out there just for the finding and it's pretty easy to see where the thinking is coming from.
-- D
I suppose we should toss in there "lack of knowledge of toy or model trains," and that "residual belief" about undiscovered treasures is probably propped up by
Antiques Road Show and perhaps
American Pickers.Ooops, sorry, I guess I went OT again. My bad. ... ::)
Agree JBJ.
What I find interesting is the OP never came back or I missed his input.
Rich
There are tons of steam era cars out there. I would go to a train show if possible because you never know what you are getting from Ebay .
My neighbor's grandson is eight years old and loves trains. His dad bought a bunch of stuff from Ebay. A few of the cars were old Tyco with talgo trucks and X2f couplers. He was disappointed with the cars. I had told him to let me know what he was bidding on before buying.
The grandson is having a great time hot gluing finishing nails into some of the freight cars to add weight (he uses a postal scale) and I made a conversion car for them - knuckle coupler one end, x2f at the other. Now they can use almost all of the cars they got online.
As for old trains being worth a lot of money, the reverse is not true in all cases with brass models. Many of them have not increased in value because they simply have 40 year old technology or can't comapre to today's offering. A friend's United K-4 is a nice brass model but doesn't have the detail or run as nicely as a Bachmann offering.
I go to garage sales out here on Long Island and am still waiting for that million dollar Lionel collection although I found a guy with an American Flyer streamline passenger car - he wanted $150! It was in terrible condition but did have a torn up box. I bet he still has this AF treasure!
Quote from: Woody Elmore on November 07, 2013, 07:43:51 AM
As for old trains being worth a lot of money, the reverse is not true in all cases with brass models. Many of them have not increased in value because they simply have 40 year old technology or can't compare to today's offering. A friend's United K-4 is a nice brass model but doesn't have the detail or run as nicely as a Bachmann offering.
Woody-
This is largely true. These models do sell for significantly more than when new but adjusting for inflation shows that few have actually appreciated. As for value growth potential and detail level, the trick is to buy only high-end examples. By that I mean the limited editions from the best builders. And it helps to have a great paint job and some believable weathering.
-- D
There was some pretty poor quality brass stuff imported during the late seventies - Hallmark, Empire Midland and NJ Custom Brass are examples. They were using Korean builders because the Japanese builders were much more expensive. Westside started off as a great builder but they went through some financial problems and by 1976 their stuff was becoming second rate.
I always looked to buy from PFM - United, Tenshodo and Fuji were respectable builders.
The problem with buying brass on Ebay, or any other online auction, is that you don't know who has tinkered with the engine in the past. Also, a lot of the brass engines came with extra screws, etc., and thesse are often missing.
When all is said and done I wish I had never sold my United Southern Railway Ps-4!