Howdy All,
I'm giving my 5 year old grandson his first train set for Christmas, a Bachman HO "Challenger" . The set comes with twelve 18"R EZ Track sections (one of which is a terminal track) to make a simple 36" circle. What additional track sections would I need to turn it into a figure 8? To keep the layout compact, I figure on using a 45 or 60 deg crossing. The track will not be permanently mounted at this time so an up-and-over is not really practical.
Thanks!
Harvey
Dear Harvey,
Here is a recipe that isn't geometrically perfect, (1/5 of an inch off) , but should work.
20 ea. #44501 or #44580 bulk 18"R-30 degree curves (you already have 12, add 8 ea.*)
(*Option: add 7 curves plus 1 ea. #44502 curved terminal re-railer instead to have a power connection on both sides of the crossing.)
4 ea.* #44511 or #44581 bulk 9" straights
(*Different option, 3 ea. straights plus 1 ea. #44510 straight terminal re-railer instead of the curved re-railer option.)
1 ea. #44541 60 degree x 3" crossing.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Edit: Add layout diagram - 40" x 82" table top needed
(http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz296/joebarb/60deg18fig8_zpsaef255f7.jpg)
Excellent!
Thanks Joe.
Harvey
Joe:
Apologies if this hi-jacks Harvey's original thread.
A total rookie question for you...could you explain having a power connection on both sides of the connection? How do you do that, and what are the advantages?
Many thanks
Joe is free to correct me if I am wrong show, but what I believe he is saying/suggesting is to have 2 power terminal tracks, one on either side of the X simply to deliver power in 2 different locations. Much like "feeder wires" you can read about. Advantage: it helps to deliver consistent power throughout the layout. Sometimes, when power is fed to the track at only 1 location, the track sections further away from that 1 location, don't aways get the same amount of current. I believe the physics of it is greater distance, equals greater resistance to the flow of electricity.
This is noticeable when you keep the power pack throttle setting in the same spot and the loco runs fine until it gets far away from where the terminal track is, and then it slows down some.
I hope this helps.
Hi, show33.
Rail joiners get old, loose, dirty or oxidized over time, causing poor (high resistance) electrical connections between track pieces.
Symptoms are that your train will slow down or stop on the far side of your layout from your single terminal re-railer.
Paralleling or splicing in a second set of wires and and connecting it
to the terminal re-railer on the other side of the layout will add another
electrical path from your power pack, making your track's electrical supply more reliable.
The only caution is that both connections need to match polarities with each other:
With no locos or cars on your layout, connect (only) one red cable's rectangular connector to a terminal re-railer.
Turn on and turn up the speed on your power pack.
Barely and quickly touch the other rectangular connector to the other terminal re-railer's posts.
If there are no sparks, plug it in the rest of the way.
If there are sparks, twist the connector over 180 degrees (which changes its polarity), then plug it in. (There should be no sparks.)
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Edit: Added Bold to "match polarities"
Thanks Joe - that makes perfect sense.
So, two electrical paths coming from one power source.
Does that mean the power going to each terminal re-railer is reduced or does the same current still go to both?
The same show.
Do you know what "suitcase" connectors are? And how to use them?
Or for that matter, a "terminal block"?
I guess by Joe's post, I understood what he was suggesting :)
Quote from: jbrock27 on November 20, 2013, 02:21:11 PM
The same show.
Do you know what "suitcase" connectors are? And how to use them?
Or for that matter, a "terminal block"?
I guess by Joe's post, I understood what he was suggesting :)
Mr. Brock what does it matter if Show knows how to use them or not? He is using a powered terminal track, where is the need for such items on that small of a layout?
Jerry
Hello J.B. How are you? I hope you are having a good day. No need to be so formal; you don't need to call me "Mr."
I don't know why you are asking me this question since I am responding to show's questions about why use more than 1 terminal track to power a layout. You may have me at a disadvantage by being more familiar with show and what he has for his layout than I. I admit I have not gleaned all of his posts to get that understanding. I am sorry I do not know his level of experience. I saw his questions and was looking to be of assistance where I can. I thought I had provided him an answer to his first question, but I guess Joe felt the need to repeat the reasons an hour afterwards.
I believe you misunderstand my 2nd post to show.
I am telling him the power delivered to both terminal tracks is the same.
I have asked him those 2 questions in order to find out if he is is familiar with those 2 items. Reason is 1) if he is, I can assist in telling him how to set up 2 terminal tracks to feed off his 1 power supply. 2) if he is not familiar with them, I would go forward with describing what they are and how to go about using them. You see, depending on his answer, it will dictate how much further info I will need to provide. The need to provide additional information to him could be short and sweet or may require more detailed information. I am gladly willing to provide additional detail.
I think you should ask Joe why he recommended 2 terminal tracks since it was he that recommended it for this size layout.
Hi Jim doing great, hope you are too!
I'm sorry if you think I misunderstood you.
Show33,
to elaborate on why Jim was asking about the suitcase connectors and terminal blocks is that instead of purchasing the red cable by Bachmann you can easily splice into your existing red wire but then you would have the problem of no connector to plug into the other terminal track.
There are other options a lot cheaper than purchasing another terminal track and red cord and the easiest way is to purchase powered rail joiners at your local hobby shop or make your own by soldering wires to the joiners yourself. As Joe stated make sure the polarity is correct.
Harvey, ( the original poster )
all this great info will work for you also.
Jerry
You are correct Jerry in the understanding of the concept of why I brought up the suitcase connectors and terminal strip, but I am not sure you are correct in what you say about their intended applications. I do not know what kind of power supply show uses, do you?
This is why I had asked him the question and was waiting for his answers. My plan was to proceed from there, once I had more information from him. I would need to know what he is using for the power supply before I could say how to apply the use of the suitcase connectors or terminal strip or whether they could even be used.
Also, your suggestion assumes (or perhaps you know ?) that show has the ability to solder. I do not know if he does or does not. I do recall him saying recently he was basically, "just starting out" or "just getting back" something to that effect. Again, this is why I was looking to hear back from him, but instead heard from you.
Jim
QuoteI do not know what kind of power supply show uses, do you?
Maybe you can further my education. DC and DCC both have a positive and a negative side correct? What other types are used that have a different configuration of power?
QuoteI would need to know what he is using for the power supply before I could say how to apply the use of the suitcase connectors or terminal strip or whether they could even be used.
Still don't get where this is going. Suitcase connectors are used to attach one wire to another they don't care what type is giving power to them or do they?
QuoteAlso, your suggestion assumes (or perhaps you know ?) that show has the ability to solder. I do not know if he does or does not.
Ahhhh! your correct I don't know his ability to solder but he did say in his first post...
QuoteAs a little background, I grew up with HO trains and have been itching to get back into it for a while.
so one would assume he has some knowledge of it and if he did not I am sure he would tell us.
QuoteI was looking to hear back from him, but instead heard from you.
Don't worry it won't happen again? ;)
By the way I believe his post was directed to Joe and you took over.
Sincerely Jerry
QuoteI am not sure of your first question. I think we are talking about 2 different things: I was referring/asking about the kind of power source show uses. For example: MRC, Bachmann, Athearn, not whether he uses DC or DCC. I still don't know as I type this post. I could be wrong but knowing that would dictate on how to instruct on wiring from one power source to more than one piece of track.
Still don't understand what the powerpack has to do with running feeders, that is why I stated you could further my education. I really want to know as I see no relationship between the two other than one supplies power and the other directs flow. Is there something else?
QuoteI don't see where show mentions soldering. Can you point me to that?
Correct again. I never said he knew how, I was assuming since he had previous ho background. ( you know what they say made an $%# out of u and me. In your eyes its just me)
QuoteOn a technical point, I don't see that show actually directed his question toward Joe as opposed to in general.
Quote from: show33 on November 20, 2013, 11:54:20 AM
Joe:
Apologies if this hi-jacks Harvey's original thread.
A total rookie question for you...could you explain having a power connection on both sides of the connection? How do you do that, and what are the advantages?
Many thanks
I think it's great we can all help in one way or another but my main concern was the way you stated if he knew what they were and how to use them. Sounded harsh and degrading.
I value your responses as much as anyone else and have responded to your posts as well as you have mine.
Jerry
Please let me know the answer to the first question that still has me pulling on my grays. ;D
Quote from: show33 on November 20, 2013, 02:01:44 PM
Thanks Joe - that makes perfect sense.
So, two electrical paths coming from one power source.
Does that mean the power going to each terminal re-railer is reduced or does the same current still go to both?
here is a little electrical theory to help explain things a bit. ohm's law, the foundation of electrical theory, states voltage is current (amps) times resistance (ohms).......thus, adding an additional feeder theoretically reduces resistance by half, and in theory increases the amps. in practice, the locomotive's motor determines the current needed, with small current increases due to resistance in the rails. adding the second feeder minimizes those increases, and the redundancy of having two different sets of feeders greatly increases the overall reliability of the circuit.
the total current in the circuit divides between the two sets of feeders, according to the resistance from power source to the locomotive in each of the possible current paths. thus, when the locomotive gets closer to one set of feeders, current increases in that feeder and decreases in the other. the amount of current in each feeder is constantly changing as the locomotive moves around the track.
P.S. there are some great little track plans in the book I referenced that uses EZ track and the author listed all the trackage needed.
OOPs that was another thread... here's the link
http://www.amazon.com/The-HO-Model-Railroading-Handbook/dp/0873416082/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_5
Harvey, thanks to Jerry, I was reminded of this site that has 4 x 8 layout plans which kids might enjoy. As Joe Satnik pointed out the last time I posted this site, just be wary that some of the designs may contain what is called "S" curves. These can create derailing problems for larger size locos and rolling stock. If you need more info on "S" curves, just ask.
I hope this helps you and your grandson:
http://www.thortrains.net/marx/kdlayhoa.html
I would be wary of the plans on thortrains. they are full of s curves and other problems that lead to derailments. what looks good on paper is often not workable in real life. as an experienced modeler who has built many layouts over the years I can spot the design flaws which are not apparent to a beginner. most of those layouts can be made to work with some rearrangement of track components, but I would advise against building any of them as drawn.
Hello Harvey,
I don't know if you have stopped viewing this thread or not, but I thought I would post up this option to you since I think it is a very valid option for the age your Grandson is.
Model Railroader Magazine just put out Part 1 of a video series yesterday of "Build a Family Layout", which is a smaller 40" x 60" SIMPLE layout specifically designed for the younger engineers. I took a screen shot of the video and posted it below. The good news is that this video series is OPEN to those NOT subscribed to MRR, so you can go and view the Part 1 video if you like. The link is below the picture. Also, just because they chose to use the Bachmann Thomas the Tank Engine trains in their example, obviously you are open to use whatever trains you want to.. keeping in mind the limitations of the radius of track used in the project layout and the choice of trains you run. For example, it appears this layout uses 18' and 15' curves, which works great for most of the Thomas the Tank Engine trains, but may not work well with longer wheeled steam engines (such as what comes with the Challenger set you mentioned).
Another thing is that it appears they designed this with folding legs, so it can be stored out of the way easily, though I can't confirm that since they have only posted up Part 1 of the build process so far.
Whichever way you go.. your Grandson will love it and have a blast. :) I started with my Son at 4yrs old by buying him the Thomas & Annie/Clarabel Deluxe set and starting on our old, unused ping pong table. Now, nearly 4 years later we have graduated from the Thomas trains and the ping pong table to realistic trains and a full on 4'x8' layout. :)
BTW.. if you do decide that the Thomas Trains option strikes your fancy (or your Grandson is even into that), I still have a good bit of those trains that we don't use and I'd be willing to get them to a new home at a very reasonable price.
Happy Modeling! -Chuck
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Qa3VaNetXA4/Uo4kl3LvzJI/AAAAAAAAEV4/w_xocOGkMLE/w558-h295-no/Screen+shot+2013-11-21+at+9.06.07+AM.png)
http://mrr.trains.com/basics/family-train-layout/2013/11/family-train-layout-episode-1---building-the-frame (http://mrr.trains.com/basics/family-train-layout/2013/11/family-train-layout-episode-1---building-the-frame)
There must be an echo in here ;)
Napa, thankfully, he has not stopped viewing this thread. I am glad for this.
I received many PMs telling me that rude behavior is not typical of the Bachmann forum and that it's not tolerated. I appreciate the efforts to bring me back. That was very nice of y'all.
While I was gone, Joe Satnik and I passed a few e-mails back and forth and he was very helpful and encouraging of my plans for my grandson's figure 8. Many, MANY thanks to Joe for his help! Besides Joe, I would also like to thank others who e-mailed and PM'd me as well as those who posted hints and ideas to "my" thread in the hopes that I was still monitoring it. Thanks!
I filled Joe (and a few others who I had e-mail conversations with) in on some additional details about my plans to introduce my 4 year old grandson to Model Railroading, which shouldn't be too difficult because he's already head-over-heals about Thomas and Friends on PBS!
First off, I should have stated in my initial post that I'm hardly a newbee to model railroading. I've been an armchair modeler for many years, patiently collecting HO stuff for when that perfect layout space eventually becomes available. However, I AM new to Bachmann's EZ Track which is what I'll be giving my grandson for Christmas. Hence, the reason for my joining the Bachmann forum.
My grandson's first layout will be a "carpet layout" in that it will not be attached to plywood but will be assembled, operated (and probably stepped on) on the floor. I'm doing this for several reasons:
1. It will give him hours of fun assembling and disassembling the track sections. I think this will go a long way towards teaching him about assembly, disassembly, and the variations of such.
2. It will teach him to be gentle because if he steps on his trains, he'll break them.
3. The "layout" can be disassembled in a few minutes and put away.
4. He will be able to sit on the floor to play with his train. (And who amongst us doesn't wish we could still do that???)
5. And finally, it will be an appetizer for his next (better) layout in March when he turns five.
As I mentioned in my first post, the Bachmann "Challenger" train set that I'll be giving my grandson includes twelve 18"R sections of black-roadbed (steel rail) EZ Track to make a 36"D circle. (Yeah, I know, steel track. Ugh!) A simple circle won't likely hold a 4 year old's interest for very long so I decided to get the extra track needed to enlarge it to a figure 8. My plans for his second layout in March will be of "conventional" construction (i.e. mounted to a plywood table).
So, because of the figure 8 layout's temporary nature, I'm resisting the urge to upgrade the set's track to NS. Therefore, in order to avoid a mixture of black and grey roadbed sections, the additional track sections will also be steel. Since steel "train set" track is hardly a collector's item, I'm wondering if anybody has some laying around that they might be willing to sell cheap (I'll pay the postage, of course) for my grandson's figure 8 layout? I need eight more full 18"R curved sections, and four 9" straight sections (one preferably a terminal rerailer).
Thanks for the help and advice,
Harvey
It sounds like a plan!
I do not have any steel track w/roadbed to donate but if you don't find any donors, a suggestion I have is search EBay. That track is there all the time and you can do some comparison shopping. You just need to be registered there in order to purchase items.
Best of luck to you and your grandson. Have fun together!
Harvey,
Send me your address and I will ship exactly what you need. This is the least I can do for what you had to endure from those two clowns who ruined your thread ::) ::) ::) ;D.
I have extra NS in 18r but no extra straights, so I can send you the steel which I have acquired through sets that I have never used.
Jerry
Clowns?? Ruined?? C'mon! Now that is harsh! :)
Quote from: Jerrys HO on November 22, 2013, 05:24:37 PM
Harvey,
Send me your address and I will ship exactly what you need. This is the least I can do...
Jerry,
You don't owe me anything. (The other two guys don't either.) I'll be more than happy to pay for the track sections and postage.
Harvey
Quote from: jbrock27 on November 22, 2013, 02:15:28 PM
I do not have any steel track w/roadbed to donate but if you don't find any donors, a suggestion I have is search EBay. That track is there all the time and you can do some comparison shopping. You just need to be registered there in order to purchase items.
JBrock,
I'm familiar with eBay and I've made a few purchases over the years. Unfortunately, eBay isn't the place to get a good bargain anymore. It seems that lately, it's become a place for guys trying to get cash for their trash. I've been burned a couple of times now.
Harvey
Quote from: hhartman on November 22, 2013, 08:13:28 PM
Unfortunately, eBay isn't the place to get a good bargain anymore. It seems that lately, it's become a place for guys trying to get cash for their trash. I've been burned a couple of times now.Harvey
Harvey-
eBay is like any other marketplace:
Caveat emptor. There is plenty of fine merchandise at good prices on eBay but the buyer does need to be careful. Frankly, though, I'm not as suspicious doing business on eBay as I am walking into some regular retail stores, including some very big names. And I do think eBay has built in some meaningful protection like their buyer protection plan.
I can also say that I think the proportion of unholy listings varies from category to category. IMHO, model railroading listings are pretty straightforward; there's no reason for an experienced model rail to get cheated. And that goes for honest errors by listers. I also inhabit the Civil War artifact world and I can tell you there is a much higher proportion of erroneous listings and listings where the lister really wants to have a genuine artifact. Sometimes it seems to be because a piece came down through the family but mostly it's because they believe they have a treasure. So they'll insist that their iron ball which is of a size and weight
never used as a cannon ball anywhere is, nevertheless, a cannon ball. Or that their medical instrument marked "stainless" is Civil War vintage even though the term wasn't coined until more than 50 years after the end of the war. Or that their 19th Century paper scraper (eraser) marked as made by a stationer for her majesty Victoria is really a bloodletter. You get the idea. A careful and informed buyer can easily protect himself from such errors the same as he can protect himself from the outright crooks. So ... don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
-- D
Harvey,
QuoteYou don't owe me anything. (The other two guys don't either.)
Yes, yes I do. I am one of the other two clowns uh I mean guy's.
Jerry
Harvey I am sorry your experience was less than positive. Not every experience I have had on Ebay has been either, but the majority of them have been, making it worthwhile for me to continue to look for items there that are difficult for me to find elsewhere. Even in those cases when the deal has been less than positive, I have found if I take the time to stick up for myself, it is still turns out not half bad. I do agree with you that sadly, it has become a place for some sellers to unload their trash. Bc of these types, as Doc touched on, you have to be discriminatory, knowledgeale and selective. Asking questions I found, are extremely beneficial for a lot of reasons.
By the way, there was no third party involved in "causing the ruckus"; just Geraldo and I.
And to all, on a serious note, because I do not want there to be any further misunderstandings, I do not consider myself a clown, nor should you. Anyone who reads this thread and comes away with that impression could not be more wrong about me. Do I have a sense of humor? Absolutely; this place can be dryer at times, than an old fart. A lot of life a death kind of stuff here and offense easily taken at times for some reason. This is supposed to be a fun hobby, but sometimes gets treated here like some sort of contest.
Geraldo? good touch Jim. Sorry I did not get back with you last night as I had floor seats to the Pelicans/Cavaliers game given to me last night. Mainly for my son not me.
Speaking of evil-bay I just purchased a coach and observation car to compliment my others (I was missing the observation car) for $20.00. I find patience is a virtue.
Jerry
No worries. Shoot me a PM with the info when you can. Did you have a good time? Not much of a NBA guy myself. J enjoy himself?
Did you ever manage to find the UP shell you were looking for, for the Spectrum?
You know he did! Yea I am not a big sports guy except football, but he loves his sports. Wish I could get him to like trains :'(.
Found the shell from a guy in Denmark who was selling the whole thing not running. I really did not need another project so I offered him $15.00 for the shell and got it.
Now I have 3 SD45 Spectrum units with upgraded decoders I installed. AWESOME.
Wish Harvey would send me his address.
Jerry
Quote from: Jerrys HO on November 23, 2013, 08:31:41 AMWish Harvey would send me his address.
PM sent.
Look guys, the conversation that the two of you got into on "my" thread was some kind of weird "polite fistfight" that gave me the impression that there was an on-going feud between the two of you. If it had been any other time it wouldn't have been so bad but it was in my first post in the Bachmann forum and I considered it a lousy way to start out. However, both of you have since apologized so I can forgive and forget like anybody else.
I hope you, and all of the Bachmann forum members have a Happy Thanksgiving!
Harvey
Harvey
I just finished pulling my set track and there is 24 18r's and 4 or 6 straights, 1 with power terminal.
Is this going to be DC and is there anything else you may need?
As far as Jim (he's really not a clown) and I (Gemini?) go, I sometimes take his wording wrong and I am sure he does the same with me. All in all he's a great guy and sometimes I get carried away.
Glad you decided to stick around and have fun with us.
Will get it out next week for you and I hope your grandson has fun with it.
Jerry
Yes, it will be a DC "layout". Thanks for this, I'm sure he'll have a GREAT time! (And more importantly, I'll be awarded "Most Favored Grandpa" status!!! ;D)
Harvey
Jerry,glad you guys had a good time! And glad you found your shell and got everything up and running.
I am a LEO, btw. :D
Yes, Harvey, Jerry and I can sometimes get like the brothers who get into disagreements with each other over misunderstandings. To everyone, it's all good.
I am sorry Harvey that you got that feeling as your "introduction" here. I am and I am sure that everyone else is as well, glad you stuck around. By way of information, I have found that even when things get like "that" here on this board, that it is relatively tame compared to what I have come across when perusing other boards for information and opinion.