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Discussion Boards => HO => Topic started by: Jerrys HO on November 24, 2013, 09:05:03 AM

Title: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Jerrys HO on November 24, 2013, 09:05:03 AM
There has been a lot of inquiries into small track plans so I thought putting up a thread of usable track plans would be interesting.
The track plans shown are pretty basic standard turnouts and 18r curves. I would imagine you could customize it by using anyrail or another track planning software.
Before I start this endeavor I was wondering if first - there would be any problems with posting pics from Model Railroading books, second - would anyone enjoy a thread like this.

Jerry
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on November 24, 2013, 09:57:39 AM
the 4x8 is an art form. post away.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: show33 on November 24, 2013, 10:48:10 AM
I would be very interested in seeing this. I would imagine there are many newbies like myself coming on here this time of year. i woud like to find a 4 x 8 plan that more experienced folks think is a good start
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Jerrys HO on November 24, 2013, 09:23:40 PM
Well spent most of the day trying to make the plans in the book work with what it say's to use and that did not work.
I decided to try and imitate one and did pretty good with it. This design is for small engines such as 2-6-0, GP's and such. When I was using 18r's my SD's did fine but had a little overhang. So it is possible.
I will try to work on more maybe one a month or sooner depending on the feedback I get off of this one.
Here it is...

(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l499/jeborne/4x8%20track%20plans/trackplan1_zpse4492f87.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/jeborne/media/4x8%20track%20plans/trackplan1_zpse4492f87.jpg.html)

list of materials...

Track & Objects
3022, H0 Walthers Structures 3022. Grain Elevator.   1
3064, H0 Walthers Structures 3064. Shops.   1
3533, H0 Walthers Structures 3533. Freight House.   1
3601, H0 Walthers Structures 3601. House.   4
3619, H0 Walthers Structures 3619. Shop.   1
44501, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44501. Curve radius 18", angle 30º   23
44511, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44511. Straight 9".   12
44514, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44514. Straight 4 1/2".   4
44541C, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44541C. Crossing 2". 90º   1
44542, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44542. Crossing 3". 60º   1
44561, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44561. Left turnout 9". radius 18"  (remote)   3
44562, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44562. Right turnout 9". radius 18"  (remote)   3
44592-2, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44592-2. Straight 1".   1
44592-4, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44592-4. Straight 1 1/2".   4
44592-5, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44592-5. Straight 2".   2
44597, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44597. Straight feeder 9".   2

Track lengths
44501, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44501. Curve radius 18", angle 30º   18 1/16 '
44511, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44511. Straight 9".   9 '
44514, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44514. Straight 4 1/2".   1 1/2 '
44541C, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44541C. Crossing 2". 90º   21/64 '
44542, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44542. Crossing 3". 60º   1/2 '
44561, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44561. Left turnout 9". radius 18"  (remote)   4 39/64 '
44562, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44562. Right turnout 9". radius 18"  (remote)   4 39/64 '
44592-2, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44592-2. Straight 1".   5/64 '
44592-4, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44592-4. Straight 1 1/2".   1/2 '
44592-5, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44592-5. Straight 2".   21/64 '
44597, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44597. Straight feeder 9".   1 1/2 '
44912  Automatic Reverse Loop Module
Total track length:    41 1/32 '

This layout has a reversing loop if you haven't noticed. I have included the gapped track and reverse module for DCC operation.

Jerry
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on November 26, 2013, 12:22:27 PM
Thank you for posting this Jerry.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rogertra on November 26, 2013, 03:31:03 PM
The "problem" I see with most 4 x 8 plans is they have no goal, no aim, no mission.

You cannot logically move freight from A to B with a purpose, as there's no clearly defined destination(s) nor reason to move cars.

There is no logic to the switching moves.

It's a case of grab some cars, run around the circle for a few turns and then, switch the cars anywhere?

But I guess that's because I'm into realistic operation.  This requires a logical system of car forwarding, a logical reason to run a train, logical motive power to haul those trains and to be era specific.

My ideal 4 x 8 would have one station along one of the 8 foot sides, with a passing track, several industrial spurs, one of which would be an interchange preferably leading off to the edge of the 4 x 8 (Future expansion?).  This would be the scenic area.  The other half of the 4 x 8 would be a few through staging tracks, unscenicked.  There would be a sky backdrop separating the two.  Trains would then operate between the staging yard and the scenicked station area.

You could have an east and west bound "through" freight that both stopped and only switched the interchange and dropped off any local cars onto the interchange for the station.

A way freight could also run.  It could be a way freight that passes through or, more interestingly, come from only one direction and terminates at the station.  Here it switches the local industries and, if required, the interchange track, sorts it's train out into the correct order for the return journey, even though there are no other modelled station, before it heads back the way it came.

If you like passenger trains, you could have both an east and west bound passenger come through or, perhaps, a commuter train that arrives from the opposite direction to the way freight, terminates, the engine does a run around, and then the train heads back from whence it came.  There are other combinations of trains and workings that can make a small 4 x 8 far more interesting than just running trains around in circles.  Of course, with through staging, you still have that option if all you want to do is just watch a train run for a while. If you go this route, you then need to develop a system of logical car forwarding, which gets you into either computer software for waybills, or a manual car-card & waybill system.  You can also use your staging yard as "fiddle yard", where you physically remove cars and locomotives and replace them with other models you have to hand so you are not always seeing the same engines and cars.  Giving the railway a goal and purpose will, usually, maintain interest in the railway far longer than just a tail chaser.

I have just completed my temporary through staging and as I'm typing this, a sound equipped Bachmann 2-8-0 is just orbiting around the railway, just for fun.  So even us "prototype" modellers like to "tail chase" once in a while.

But that's just me.  If someone gets pleasure in just running trains while it may not be my cup of tea, who am I to say they are wrong?
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Jerrys HO on November 26, 2013, 06:47:06 PM
Wow Roger you just make me want to delete this post, tear down my layout and start playing video games. Seriously that is how I felt after reading your reply.
I must say some modelers have worked for the railroad or had a relative that did and have more knowledge than reading a book about railroads could ever offer.
While most do not have the room to build a large layout or build YOUR ideal layout because of lack of room for expansion but still love trains and find anyway possible to enjoy the pleasure of trains until someone who counts rivets puts has to make us wonder why am I doing this I have no clue of how real railroads work.
Don't get me wrong, you have an outstanding layout that is well detailed. As a kid and even an adult going to train shows and exhibits you see the trains traveling around the layout and watching them loco's is just fantastic and makes you want to build one to have fun too. I mean no disrespect to your post but all I am trying to do is help others achieve their dream as I once had.

Jim glad your happy I have a couple of more much my own design playing around.
If needed I will add material lists upon request so as not to take up to much room.

For those WHO are interested here's a couple more...

(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l499/jeborne/4x8%20track%20plans/trackplan3_zpsdda24d28.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/jeborne/media/4x8%20track%20plans/trackplan3_zpsdda24d28.jpg.html)

(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l499/jeborne/4x8%20track%20plans/trackplan2_zps0e26c400.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/jeborne/media/4x8%20track%20plans/trackplan2_zps0e26c400.jpg.html)

Jerry
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rogertra on November 26, 2013, 08:03:27 PM
Jerry.

If you read my post correctly, you'll see I was describing a 4 x 8 "model railroad".  Emphasis on "railroad".

Not some basement filling empire but a simple but prototypical 4 x 8 foot model railroad.

I was showing that a prototypical model railroad can be built on a 4 x 8, no matter how bad using a 4 x 8 happens to be.  :)

Not a train set.

Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on November 26, 2013, 08:09:32 PM
Thank you again Jerry!

Am I correct that your later 2 posting utilize some 15 degree curves in places?
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Doneldon on November 26, 2013, 09:16:47 PM
Well, I'll just go on record as saying that, IMHO, 4x8 layouts have a real purpose in the hobby, or even several purposes. I don't need to list them; you all know what they are. And while I share Roger's affinity for operations and having a railroad which can be run with a purpose in mind, I also think it is very necessary for us to recognize that every modeler has different experiences and different expectations for his/her railroad, and they deserve to be respected whether we agree with their choices or not. Please note that I am neither saying nor implying that Roger's statement is in any way disrespectful. It's not. But I'm aware that it is very easy to slide into criticizing someone else's plans or devaluing them when they are different from our own.
                                                                                                                     -- D
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on November 26, 2013, 10:08:46 PM
it seems to me roger is missing the point entirely. a 4x8 is a canvas, what you paint on it is up to you. most of what will be painted will be uninteresting, but there will be a few works of art. if you want a "railroad" as roger puts it, you can if you utilize some creative design. it is easily possible to get a point to point in 4x8, many such plans have been published. and car card systems can be utilized on a 4x8 the same as any other layout.

personally, i'd rather have a 4x8 layout than 30 feet of straight track along a wall......
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rogertra on November 26, 2013, 10:46:51 PM
Quote from: jward on November 26, 2013, 10:08:46 PM
it seems to me roger is missing the point entirely. a 4x8 is a canvas, what you paint on it is up to you. most of what will be painted will be uninteresting, but there will be a few works of art. if you want a "railroad" as roger puts it, you can if you utilize some creative design. it is easily possible to get a point to point in 4x8, many such plans have been published. and car card systems can be utilized on a 4x8 the same as any other layout.

personally, i'd rather have a 4x8 layout than 30 feet of straight track along a wall......

But Jeff, it's not me that's missed the point, far from it.  Either you did not read my post fully, or failed to understand it.

I never mentioned point to point, quite the opposite in fact.  I had a station on one side and through staging on the other showing that it IS possible to have a prototype style model railroad in a 4 x 8, something you and the other commentators on my post failed to notice.  I was just posting another option for the use of the 4 x 8 in that it does not have to always be a tail chaser.   While I'll admit that roundy go roundy, tail chasing railways are not my cup of tea, if that's what others chose to go for then good on them.

You also seemed to have failed to notice my closing comment which I state above.

At least Doneldon grasped my point if nobody else did.

As for the 30 feet of straight track.  That is prototypical track plan and is based on the Rutland's Alburgh Yard in Vermont. I get far more operational fun out that yard than I'd get watching a train chase its tail around a 4 x 8.  Even though my model railroad trackage is not even 50% complete, it still takes over two hours to run some five trains or so and switch the yard and the industries.  I only have a temporary five track staging yard on the other side of the room so hence the low number of trains but in several years from now there should be a couple more stations and way more staging tracks.  I'm hoping to keep some five or so operators busy for at least a four hour operating session.  That's the goal anyway.



Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Jerrys HO on November 27, 2013, 01:21:09 AM
Did anyone notice my first pic disappear? That was not intentional as I was making a new folder in photobucket and moved the pic and it disappeared from here.

Roger I did not misunderstand you as I stated I did not want to be disrespectful. This thread (named 4x8 track plans) was designed to help others with limited space design a track plan and improvise from there. Instead of making the comments about 4x8's
QuoteThe "problem" I see with most 4 x 8 plans is they have no goal, no aim, no mission.
why don't you help and design your 4x8 and post it here. Every plan has a goal and a mission.
This thread was started in hopes other's that had/have plans would post them or show how to improve on the ones posted. 

Jim
yes the new plans have 15r included. The two new plans have 22r outer, 18r middle and 15r inner track.

Jeff
Quotea 4x8 is a canvas, what you paint on it is up to you. most of what will be painted will be uninteresting, but there will be a few works of art.
Thanks for the encouraging words.

To all the newbies hope this thread helps and do start out with a basic design whether you draw it on paper or use someone's software to design it. You won't regret it later.

Jerry
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rogertra on November 27, 2013, 02:57:15 AM
Quote from: Jerrys HO on November 27, 2013, 01:21:09 AM
Did anyone notice my first pic disappear? That was not intentional as I was making a new folder in photobucket and moved the pic and it disappeared from here.

Roger I did not misunderstand you as I stated I did not want to be disrespectful. This thread (named 4x8 track plans) was designed to help others with limited space design a track plan and improvise from there. Instead of making the comments about 4x8's
QuoteThe "problem" I see with most 4 x 8 plans is they have no goal, no aim, no mission.
why don't you help and design your 4x8 and post it here. Every plan has a goal and a mission.
This thread was started in hopes other's that had/have plans would post them or show how to improve on the ones posted.  


Jerry


And I reiterate,  the "problem" with most 4 x 8 is they do not have a goal, aim or mission.

Actually Jerry, if you re-read my post, I did make a suggestion on how to design a 4 x 8 for operation.

I offered a solution.  Unfortunately, I do not have the software to design and post anything here and I also have no need for software to design set track layouts as I either hand lay my track or use flex track.  I also have no need of track design software as I do not design model railroads more than once every ten years or so.   And then I use paper and pencil or just design as I go along.  :)

However: -
                                     / Log Yard
                                    /
      ____Team Track___/_____Industry________Industry_
                                  /______Commuter layover____                                                                    Staging
                                 /
A_________________/______STATION____________________________________________________________________________________________ Connects to A
    ______________\_____________________________/______________                          \______________________________/
        Interchange                                                                     Industry                             \____________________________/


Obviously not to scale and not as nicely drawn as your drawings but it's the sort of thing I had in mind.

Perhaps you could use your software and see what you can come up with along these lines?

With 18" curves at the ends I see six car freights?  Two or maybe three car passenger trains?

As there's no turntable, small diesels?  Geeps, RS-3, S-4, from Bachmann?

What do you think?
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Ron Zee on November 27, 2013, 03:48:10 AM
In the three plans presented above, two of them if you start out going clockwise around the track, you can eventually get it to start going counter clockwise. But, then you can't get it to go the other way again. The first one is the same except starting out in the opposite direction. Looks to me that the only way to get the train to go the other way again, is to physically pick it up and turn it around, (like that happens in real life sized trains) or installing a turntable into the above designs. The only other way involves a lot of backing up.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Jerrys HO on November 27, 2013, 07:46:25 AM
Ron

I realized that while making them. Trying to keep it simple for newbies. Will try to design better ones as I go. It takes a couple of hours to design them with more added.

These plans can be modified to suit your needs. You can add an additional reversing loop or install a turntable as suggested. I am planning on one with these in mind or even a wye for more realistic operations.

Jerry
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Len on November 27, 2013, 08:01:20 AM
Between the Bachmann EZ-Track book, the Atlas HO Track Plan books, and a bunch of Kalmbach published starter track plan books, there are already a ton of 4x8 layouts out there. Many of which provide a lot of operating interest in a limited space.

One way to 'expand' a 4x8 is to have it represent one point within a larger railroad, with a spur or two running off the table to 'the rest of the world'. If there's space, add a 4'-6' piece of 1x4 lumber for a "Fiddle Yard" for new incoming trains, and a place for outbounds to leave for.

You'd be amazed what operating possiblities are available running locals made up of cars from the "through" trains, and getting blocks of cars ready to be picked up by the next one.

Len
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: show33 on November 27, 2013, 09:23:26 AM
Len - does the Bachmann EZ track book come with my set (hasn't arrived yet)
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rogertra on November 27, 2013, 02:06:01 PM
Quote from: Len on November 27, 2013, 08:01:20 AM
Between the Bachmann EZ-Track book, the Atlas HO Track Plan books, and a bunch of Kalmbach published starter track plan books, there are already a ton of 4x8 layouts out there. Many of which provide a lot of operating interest in a limited space.

One way to 'expand' a 4x8 is to have it represent one point within a larger railroad, with a spur or two running off the table to 'the rest of the world'. If there's space, add a 4'-6' piece of 1x4 lumber for a "Fiddle Yard" for new incoming trains, and a place for outbounds to leave for.

You'd be amazed what operating possibilities are available running locals made up of cars from the "through" trains, and getting blocks of cars ready to be picked up by the next one.

Len



One word Len.   Exactly!

Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Len on November 27, 2013, 04:30:00 PM
Quote from: show33 on November 27, 2013, 09:23:26 AM
Len - does the Bachmann EZ track book come with my set (hasn't arrived yet)

I don't believe the book comes in any of the sets I'm aware of.

The actualy title of the book is, "E-Z Model Railroads Track Planning Book", item 99978 if you order from the Bachmann On-Line Store. The ISBN-13 is 978-0964709829 if you need to order from Amazon or Barnes & Noble.

Len
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Desertdweller on November 27, 2013, 04:55:08 PM
Building a 4x8' model railroad, especially in HO, is such a classic model railroading experience that all model railroaders ought to build at least one, just to have done it.

This has been the classic beginner's railroad since at least the 1950's.  As such, there has been 60 years of thought put into developing 4x8 track plans.

HO is also probably the best scale for someone starting out in the hobby.  There is just so much available in a variety of price ranges.  If you do decide to go into a different scale, you shouldn't have much trouble selling your HO equipment.

Like all model railroads, a 4x8 is limited by curve radius.  My 4x8 HO beginner layout used 18" radius curves at first.  Later, I moved these closer together and put 22 1/2" radius curves outside them.  That was the biggest radius I could fit on the 48" wide platform.  There wasn't any commercial track that size in existence, so I made them out of flex track.  Roadbed was commercially available cork material.  The track and switches were brass.

I read a lot of complaints about brass track corroding, but I ran trains so often the track never had a chance to get dirty.

Kalmbach had an excellent book called "The HO Railroad that Grows".  It may still be in print.  The idea is you start with a 4x8 and keep expanding it, keeping the original track layout as a core.

Another really good dream book is Atlas "101 Track Plans".  This shows plans for everything from the smallest HO railroad to huge ones.  One of the features of this book I found most entertaining was the names given the designs.  This book came out at a time when the fashion was to make up fanciful names for your model railroad.   Gems I remember were "The Long Guyland Railroad", and the "Synaxis and Phrax".

Les
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Searsport on November 27, 2013, 05:48:23 PM
May I suggest that you take a look at some of the early Peco books (dating from the 1950s – 60s, but still in print), such as "60 Plans For Small Railways", "Track Plans", and "Plans for Larger Layouts".  These were mostly drawn by the late Cyril Freezer, long time editor of Railway Modeller magazine, and are based on real railway practice (albeit condensed), and hence do have a railway purpose. 

They are based on British steam era prototype practice, and hence not quite in the American idiom in terms of track layout or facilities, e.g. they have a strong emphasis on passenger facilities, are designed for small goods wagons, and often have apparently double track main lines handling dense traffic, but they are generally designed to fit very small spaces (i.e. British houses), and many are even smaller than 8x4, yet typically comprise an end-to-end spiral running from a high level terminus to a low level terminus with a disguised continuous run and hidden storage loops. 

Another common feature is for the low level to represent a cramped, busy urban terminus and the high level a more spacious and relaxed rural setting.

Thus one can, for example run services between two busy urban termini or from an urban terminus to a rural terminus, with opportunities to run trains continuously round the circuit for as long as you like or hold them in a hidden loop, whilst you shunt goods wagons at either terminus, shunt passenger carriages, service locomotives, etc.  Another common feature is a central operating well with control panel, so that the  operator (on a swivel chair) can never see the whole layout at the same time, just the bit he is focused on.

Regards,
Bill.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: hhartman on November 27, 2013, 05:59:36 PM
I agree with DesertDweller in that the 4x8 is often a rite of passage.  It is usually the first "real" layout that follows the simple circle of track included with someone's first train set.  

But the humble 4x8 can also have other uses besides being a kid's first layout.  For some, it may be the biggest layout that can be put in a dorm room or small apartment.  It can also serve as an educational platform for learning new scenery or tracklaying techniques.  Or it could be a diorama for photography work. Or it could be a building block with planned incorporation into a bigger layout when the ultimate layout space becomes available.  Or it could even be built by an experienced model railroader for donation to a day care center, a church, or a children's hospital.  None of these care that the layout lacks a goal, aim, or mission.

I doubt any of us expects a 4x8 sheet of plywood to become the ultimate layout but to a 12 year old kid, it can be the second step of a great hobby!

Harvey
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Jerrys HO on November 27, 2013, 06:16:37 PM
One word Les and Harvey. EXACTLY!

Jerry
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Geared Steam on November 27, 2013, 06:41:09 PM
I have a 4 x 8 that I have been operating now for 5 years. It's just me, and I can go hours "operating" my layout. Everyone today claims the way to do it is a back and forth shelf layout. You get to run for 10 seconds, reverse, do it again, repeat. The claim that you cannot operate on a 4 x 8 and you just want to watch trains run is complete bs. I have a mine with two track leads, a sawmill, an interchange track, a three track yard with station and freight house, and a scale track to weigh ore cars, turntable and yard. It is completely possible to operate a 4 x 8.

My layout is a modified "Plywood Summit Lines", it admittedly has steep grades, and more in line with geared steam, logging and mining, but of course that was my target when I selected the layout. It fits into a corner of the room, as I dont need to access all four sides, when I do, the layout legs are sitting on "moving men", it very easily slides away from the walls for access if needed.

Build what you wish to build and be cautious about the experts tell you. Only you know what you want and would be happy with.

MHO
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rogertra on November 27, 2013, 07:35:54 PM
Quote from: Geared Steam on November 27, 2013, 06:41:09 PM
I have a 4 x 8 that I have been operating now for 5 years. It's just me, and I can go hours "operating" my layout. Everyone today claims the way to do it is a back and forth shelf layout. You get to run for 10 seconds, reverse, do it again, repeat. The claim that you cannot operate on a 4 x 8 and you just want to watch trains run is complete bs. I have a mine with two track leads, a sawmill, an interchange track, a three track yard with station and freight house, and a scale track to weigh ore cars, turntable and yard. It is completely possible to operate a 4 x 8.

My layout is a modified "Plywood Summit Lines", it admittedly has steep grades, and more in line with geared steam, logging and mining, but of course that was my target when I selected the layout. It fits into a corner of the room, as I don't need to access all four sides, when I do, the layout legs are sitting on "moving men", it very easily slides away from the walls for access if needed.

Build what you wish to build and be cautious about the experts tell you. Only you know what you want and would be happy with.

MHO


My point exactly, a nicely designed 4 x 8 can be just as interesting to operate as a basement empire.

It doesn't have to be a mindless loop or loops.

Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on November 27, 2013, 08:45:33 PM
if you want to see what a 4x8 can be, checque out the bear creek and south Jackson.
http://s145079212.onlinehome.us/rr/bcsj/index.html

this guy did it right. there isn't a whole lot i'd do to improve this one, except to add a second passing track on the lower level and some staging under the town.

the things I like about a 4x8 are that it is a manageable piece of railroad to build and maintain, it is semi-portable, and it forces you to selectively compress things. you need to capture the feeling of a place rather than model every detail. often modeling everything to scale you lose the context of the real thing.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Barney R on November 27, 2013, 10:53:47 PM
I have a 4X8 layout and it is from the Atlas layout book. It is called the twice around and it is great. I modified it 2 years ago and I keep adding and changing it as I go along. Check it out in the Atlas book.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on November 28, 2013, 06:48:34 AM
Barney, is the book you are referring to titled: Atlas HO Layouts For Every Space?
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Barney R on November 28, 2013, 09:20:36 AM
If you go to this link, it will take you to the Atlas Web site and Twice Around is #1OO15.

http://www.atlasrr.com/Code100web/pages/10015.htm

Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on November 28, 2013, 12:07:28 PM
that layout begs to be built as an over & under.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Barney R on November 28, 2013, 10:33:27 PM
I bet it does beg to be built as an over and under. As it is, the crossing point keeps you on your toes, however, it is just a great layout. I have a town center in the middle and a wooded area with a timber company. I then have a spur off near the town center that has a lumber mill and a fire wood shack. I have two train stations in the town and different parts are named after my grandchildren. So they all have a part of it. The town is "Kevinland" and the tree harvesting is done by the Elizabeth Lumber Company. Then there is The "Michael lumber yard" and "Mike's firewood Shack". I really need to take pictures and post them. I just bought a Bachmann 70 ton Climax for the lumber works.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: dheaton on December 10, 2013, 03:32:39 PM
This is a good thread Jerry so thanks for stating it.  I look forward to seeing more layouts as you post them.  I live a long way from a hobby shop, and yes I could order a book online but seeing it here helps.  gave me some ideas.

Thanks again

David
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Jerrys HO on December 10, 2013, 06:12:40 PM
David,

Glad you like them. I have fun just creating on anyrail.
The latest I have done I am thinking of one day building for myself. It will either be a small logging or mining layout. I was thing of running only Climax's on it if they can handle the tight 15 radius curves.
Feedback is welcome for those who wish.

(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l499/jeborne/Mobile%20Uploads/compactminingorlogging_zps6ad746a8.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/jeborne/media/Mobile%20Uploads/compactminingorlogging_zps6ad746a8.jpg.html)

Jerry
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on December 11, 2013, 09:21:44 AM
here are a few classics redrawn for ez track.

(http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab296/emdloco/HO205ezGreatNorthernPacificeztrack_zps0230672c.jpg) (http://s873.photobucket.com/user/emdloco/media/HO205ezGreatNorthernPacificeztrack_zps0230672c.jpg.html)

this is the great northern pacific aka the ho railroad that grows. it had its own how to build it book, published in the late 1950s. for dc block control, the different blocks are colour coded, add insulated rail joiners at the colour boundaries. note that the dark blue and pastel blue sections are reversing loops requiring special wiring whether you use dc or dcc.





(http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab296/emdloco/VerdantValleyeztrack_zps02f98512.jpg) (http://s873.photobucket.com/user/emdloco/media/VerdantValleyeztrack_zps02f98512.jpg.html)
This one is the verdant valley, originally built as a varney display layout in the 1950s, with 15r curves. I've redrawn it for 18r curves, table size is 4 1/2 x 6. no reversing loops on this one so wiring is straightforward.




(http://i873.photobucket.com/albums/ab296/emdloco/HO1258ez18r_zps3252a9ce.jpg) (http://s873.photobucket.com/user/emdloco/media/HO1258ez18r_zps3252a9ce.jpg.html)

This one has no name, but is based on a design from Boy's Life magazine, December 1958. the original also used 15r curves, I've widened them to 18r. the crossover track at the bottom makes a reversing loop out of the bottom left track, im me for recommendations on wiring this one.


hope these give some ideas









Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on December 11, 2013, 11:03:03 AM
So there are two plans from the 1950s that originally used 15-inch-radius curves. Were 15-R curves more commonly used "back then"?  ???
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: hhartman on December 11, 2013, 11:27:29 AM
Quote from: Johnson Bar Jeff on December 11, 2013, 11:03:03 AM
So there are two plans from the 1950s that originally used 15-inch-radius curves. Were 15-R curves more commonly used "back then"?  ???

Yes, and sometimes as small as 13"R.  Most modelers didn't have the extra room for large train layouts back then so most layout designs were small (the 4x8 being very common).  In fact, Atlas's 22"R was considered a luxury back then.  Of course, we didn't run (nor were they commonly available back then anyway) UP Big Boys or Challengers on 4x8 layouts but the popular little 0-4-0 "Docksides", "Little Hustler" diesels, and 40ft freight cars operated just fine on the tighter curves.

Harvey
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Jerrys HO on December 11, 2013, 01:12:40 PM
Jeff your making my plans look bad ;D ;D but I love it. Thanks for the help and I really like the GNP plan. Nice job on color coding the blocks.

Jerry
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on December 11, 2013, 03:52:29 PM
Quote from: hhartman on December 11, 2013, 11:27:29 AM
Quote from: Johnson Bar Jeff on December 11, 2013, 11:03:03 AM
So there are two plans from the 1950s that originally used 15-inch-radius curves. Were 15-R curves more commonly used "back then"?  ???

Yes, and sometimes as small as 13"R.  Most modelers didn't have the extra room for large train layouts back then so most layout designs were small (the 4x8 being very common).  In fact, Atlas's 22"R was considered a luxury back then.  Of course, we didn't run (nor were they commonly available back then anyway) UP Big Boys or Challengers on 4x8 layouts but the popular little 0-4-0 "Docksides", "Little Hustler" diesels, and 40ft freight cars operated just fine on the tighter curves.

Harvey

Thanks! That's interesting to know. (Some of us don't have room for large layouts today, either.  ;) ) That probably explains a couple of things: I'm sure I read somewhere that the minimum radius for Mantua's "General" is 12 inches, and also why the instruction sheet that came with my old Atlas pier set mentioned how to use the piers if you were using 15-inch-radius curves (would have made an awfully steep grade, I would think).

JBJ
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: janedoedad on December 11, 2013, 06:51:26 PM
Quote from: jward on December 11, 2013, 09:21:44 AM
here are a few classics redrawn for ez track.

this is the great northern pacific aka the ho railroad that grows. it had its own how to build it book, published in the late 1950s. for dc block control, the different blocks are colour coded, add insulated rail joiners at the colour boundaries. note that the dark blue and pastel blue sections are reversing loops requiring special wiring whether you use dc or dcc.

Very Cool!  I would like to use your conversion for my GNP layout.

I am new to the hobby and finding it fun and challenging.  A vendor at the Great Train Expo suggested this book as a good place to start.  I plan to build the GNP with just a few modifications.  Bought two Bachmann RTR sets to get started with and picking other parts and such as needed.

Thanks for doing this!

JDD

Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on December 11, 2013, 10:02:00 PM
Quote from: janedoedad on December 11, 2013, 06:51:26 PM

Very Cool!  I would like to use your conversion for my GNP layout.

I am new to the hobby and finding it fun and challenging.  A vendor at the Great Train Expo suggested this book as a good place to start.  I plan to build the GNP with just a few modifications.  Bought two Bachmann RTR sets to get started with and picking other parts and such as needed.

Thanks for doing this!

JDD



here are the track pieces you need.

Track & Objects
44501, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44501. Curve radius 18", angle 30º   31
44511, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44511. Straight 9".   20
44512, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44512. Straight 3".   5
44513, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44513. Straight 2.25".   4
44514, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44514. Straight 4.5".   4
44530, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44530. Curve (1/3) radius 18", angle 10º   2
44531, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44531. Curve (1/2) radius 18", angle 15º   2
44561, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44561. Left turnout 9". radius 18"  (remote)   4
44562, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44562. Right turnout 9". radius 18"  (remote)   6
44591, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44591. Buffer/Bumper 2.75".   4
44592-1, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44592-1. Straight 0.75".   2
44592-2, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44592-2. Straight 1".   3
44592-3, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44592-3. Straight 1.25".   3
44592-4, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44592-4. Straight 1.5".   1
44592-5, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44592-5. Straight 2".   1

Track lengths
44501, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44501. Curve radius 18", angle 30º   24.35'
44511, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44511. Straight 9".   15'
44512, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44512. Straight 3".   1.25'
44513, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44513. Straight 2.25".   0.75'
44514, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44514. Straight 4.5".   1.5'
44530, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44530. Curve (1/3) radius 18", angle 10º   0.52'
44531, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44531. Curve (1/2) radius 18", angle 15º   0.79'
44561, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44561. Left turnout 9". radius 18"  (remote)   6.14'
44562, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44562. Right turnout 9". radius 18"  (remote)   9.21'
44591, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44591. Buffer/Bumper 2.75".   0.92'
44592-1, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44592-1. Straight 0.75".   0.13'
44592-2, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44592-2. Straight 1".   0.25'
44592-3, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44592-3. Straight 1.25".   0.31'
44592-4, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44592-4. Straight 1.5".   0.13'
44592-5, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44592-5. Straight 2".   0.17'

Total track length:    61.41'

for wiring, I would use 2 atlas controllers for the reversing sections, and 2 atlas selectors for the block wiring.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on December 11, 2013, 10:27:40 PM
This is very helpful.  Thank you Jeff.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: janedoedad on December 11, 2013, 10:44:12 PM
Thank You, Mr. Ward!


JDD
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on December 11, 2013, 11:05:45 PM
Quote from: Johnson Bar Jeff on December 11, 2013, 11:03:03 AM
So there are two plans from the 1950s that originally used 15-inch-radius curves. Were 15-R curves more commonly used "back then"?  ???

in the 1950s and earlier, many laid their own track by hand like I do now. they could and often did choose whatever radius suited them. before the late 1950s, there were also no standard couplers, every manufacturer used its own. many were hook and loop types which handled sharp curves better. also, most locomotives and cars were smaller, with things like 4-6-2 steamers and f7s for diesels. with the exception of passenger cars, most equipment seems to have been in the 40 foot range.

starting in the 1960s, on the real railroads the cars and locomotives got longer. some were downright huge in fact, like 16 wheel tank cars about 100 feet long. naturally, the models got bigger too.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on December 11, 2013, 11:11:09 PM
Quote from: Jerrys HO on December 10, 2013, 06:12:40 PM
David,

Glad you like them. I have fun just creating on anyrail.
The latest I have done I am thinking of one day building for myself. It will either be a small logging or mining layout. I was thing of running only Climax's on it if they can handle the tight 15 radius curves.
Feedback is welcome for those who wish.

(http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l499/jeborne/Mobile%20Uploads/compactminingorlogging_zps6ad746a8.jpg) (http://s1120.photobucket.com/user/jeborne/media/Mobile%20Uploads/compactminingorlogging_zps6ad746a8.jpg.html)

outside of the 15r curves which I really don't like, the biggest problem I see is that the connection track between the upper and lower lines, at the bottom, is going to be way too steep. my estimate is for grades on the order of 6-8%. a climax or shay will pull those grades, but with an abrupt transition from level to a steep grade your couplers might slip over one another. it would be better to redesign the connector to be a little longer. remember, a rough estimate is 1/4" rise per full section of track for a 3% grade, 3/8 rise per section for 4%.

Jerry
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on December 15, 2013, 05:10:34 PM
 
Bill
[/quote]

I would be very careful about building these layouts. it is obvious that the person who designed them never built and tested them. they are full of s curves which will cause derailment problems. layouts 2 8 and 10 are especially bad.

the rule of thumb is to place a straight at least as long as your longest car or locomotive between curves of opposite directions. in practice, you can get away with 6" straights between the curves if you don't run cars longer than 50 feet. but going from a left curve directly into a right one, especially with 18r curves, is asking for trouble. just because anyrail will let you do it on a computer screen doesn't mean it will work in the real world.

Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Jerrys HO on December 15, 2013, 06:31:12 PM
buhlig

On this forum we are not allowed to sell our merchandise as I see you are selling these.

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,8493.0.html

Jerry
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on December 15, 2013, 07:47:53 PM
Ignoring buhlig's weak attempt to peddle his EBay merchandise, I will say this; that sometimes it can be helpful to see a track plan for ideas, even if it has flaws like S curves.  Bc, it can give an idea, and not necessarily copied if one knows where the flaws and weaknesses  are, these can either possibly be modified or left out and the good ideas can be taken from the plan.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on December 16, 2013, 10:11:04 AM
I do agree with you jb. those plans can be redrawn into something that works, as can most plans.

my point here is, and this is one of the reasons I keep hammering the point about s curves, that this is the time of year when we get many people new to the hobby. if they spend hundreds of dollars on something that doesn't work well because of a design flaw it leaves them disgusted with trains. we lose potential hobbyists who think trains are more trouble than they're worth. and it's all because of a flaw in the track layout which could be easily corrected, but they don't know that, and probably won't stick around long enough to fin out.

if we can steer them to a well designed, workable plan from the get-go, we've eliminated a source of frustration and they may find that railroading is their niche. we should be helping the newbies enjoy the hobby, not having them spend a fortune on something we know is going to frustrate them.

off my soapbox now. if anybody is still reading this, good luck on your railroad and please post whatever plan you build here for the rest o us to enjoy.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on December 16, 2013, 12:01:33 PM
You make an excellent point JW!  Well taken.
I just got the Atlas #11 book-Track Plans for Small Spaces and while a little disappointed that it did not have plans for 8 x 8 Ls or a lot of 4 x 8s in general, it does provide great info and is easy for anyone to understand, down to the wiring.  I will likely read all the points made in the book, take what I have learned here thanks to you and many others as well as plans I have seen elsewhere, throw in a little SCARM and come up with something me and the boy will really like to operate.

A Merry Christmas to you and your family!
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on December 17, 2013, 09:46:44 AM
you can't go wrong with the atlas books. all of those layouts were built and tested before they ever were published. many people don't know this, but the late john Armstrong was co-author of these books. and with a good layout planning program, you can redraw them for ez track, though they will take up a bit more space.

in my case experience is the best teacher. I was fortunate enough to have a grandfather and father who were both avid model railroaders. I was able to learn a lot from them, but still made a lot of the mistakes  I often warn about here.

how old is your son? mine loved to run trains when he was about 3-8 years old, then lost interest.

and everybody, have a merry Christmas.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on December 17, 2013, 11:14:31 AM
He will be 10 soon.  He enjoys it, but is not as "into it" as I.
I have not been as fortunate to have the benefit of previous generations passing knowledge down to me so most of my learning before finding the right places to get information, also came from me making mistakes and except for some hand me down track, some structures, a loco, some cars and an AHM train set, I was left to it on my own.  It was still fun then, like it is now :D 
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Len on December 17, 2013, 11:16:23 AM
One minor word of warning about the Atlas books, specifically the plans using 'cookie cutter' benchwork.

Dimensional lumber sizes have gotten slightly smaller since those plans were originally developed. So double check the clearance measurements you'll actually need before cutting anything. I found this out the hard way building the "Granite Gorge & Northern" a while back. I just cut the notches directly from the plans, without premeasuring, and ended up with too little clearance under the upper double track.

Len
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on December 17, 2013, 11:19:47 AM
Thank you for the heads up Len.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rogertra on December 23, 2013, 02:53:02 AM
The current issue of Model Railroader has a good 5 x 8 model railroad that takes up only a little more than a 4x8 plus it gives reasonable operation (switching) potential rather than just tail chasing.

Merry Christmas.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on December 23, 2013, 07:26:04 AM
A Merry Christmas to you as well Roger!

I for one would love to do that but have found it near impossible/impractical to find a 5 x 8 piece of plywood unless it is special ordered through a local hardware store/lumber company; to the tune of $300+ (American). 
The big box stores don't carry that size, there is not a Menards within 3 states of me and I don't have the time or desire to comb through Craigslist looking for a ping pong table.  So for me, an 8 by 8 "L" is going to have to suffice.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on December 23, 2013, 09:29:41 AM
atlas has a plan called the rancocas harbor belt which would fit that area, with a dockside theme.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on December 23, 2013, 12:24:39 PM
Thank you Jeff, I will have to look that up. 
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: buhlig on December 25, 2013, 09:17:58 PM
All

First I'd like to truly apologize for posting my eBay store on the forum. My attention was not to paddle Bachmann EZ track, but to share the layouts I created. I guess I should have just posted the layouts individually. With that said, I just have to thank Jeff for the constructive criticism about the work I created. It sounds like he really knows what he's talking about especially since he was fortunate enough to have a grandfather and father who were both avid model railroaders teaching him the ins and outs. I wish I had that opportunity!

Jeff I definitely have the same interest as you do and that's to get more people into model railroading. It's a great hobby that has been declining for some time and most kids would prefer to play video games then create a small wonderlands. If you are interested I'd be happy to send you my Layout designs for review and together we can make the beginners much happier with perfect layouts.

I can remember when I was a kid back in the 60's, I lived in Lynbrook, NY and I would ride my bike to Trainland almost every day. Today the few people that are interested in model railroading get online and look for information since they don't have a local store in their local area. Most people in the US don't have a hobby shop or a Model train store close by and rely on peddles like myself or massive websites like modeltrainstuff.

Many newbies are just looking for some help. I have a number of customers that are trying to design their own layouts by trial and error. They buy track and then realize it's not going to work and waste a lot of money. In addition, it's not easy designing layouts with Bachmann EZ track since there is so many needed pieces of track that Bachmann doesn't make.  For example, you can't parallel a siding with # 4, 5, or 6 turnouts, way is that?

Nobody else on eBay or any other site for that matter is offering customers or potential model railroaders layout designs. I'm trying my best to change that and would appreciate any help I can get. I'd be happy to send anybody my Anyrail designs and have them help make them better so we can get more folks interested in model railroading.

Thanks,
Bill Uhlig
Crazy Model Trains
240-367-6067       
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on December 26, 2013, 09:10:42 AM
send me the files and i'll work on them for you.

btw, the 12 degree curved section, I think it is 35.5r, will work with the #5 to make a parallel track. the track spacing is a little wide for my taste, but it works.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Len on December 26, 2013, 03:27:58 PM
It's actually fairly simple to build a 5x9 table using two sheets of 4x8 plywood.

Frame up one 4x8 using 1x3's or 1x4's so it's good and rigid. The table support legs should be mounted to this main table structure.

Cut the other sheet into two 6"'x8' strips, and two 6"x5' strips. You'll loose a little width to the saw kerf, but not enough to matter. Frame each strip up using the same 1x3 or 1x4 material used for the main table.

Bolt a 6"x8' strip to each long edge of the main table. Bolt a 6"x5' strip to each end of the main table, and the ends of the 6"x8' strips.

You now have a 5'x9' table. If you use 1' wide strips you end up with a 6'x10' table.

Len
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on December 26, 2013, 03:33:45 PM
Thank you for the suggestion Len.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: AGSB on December 26, 2013, 04:10:24 PM
The plan in the current MRR mag isn't built on a single piece of plywood. It is built in modular sections and a 5x8 layout is only one configuration available. It can also be configured to an "L" shape among others.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rogertra on December 26, 2013, 04:14:32 PM
Quote from: AGSB on December 26, 2013, 04:10:24 PM
The plan in the current MRR mag isn't built on a single piece of plywood. It is built in modular sections and a 5x8 layout is only one configuration available. It can also be configured to an "L" shape among others.

Yes.  It's a much more interesting design than a booring 4 x 8 with a loop of track and a few spurs inside the loop.

A quick scan of the article reveals that it's made up of two 2 x 8 modules, an extension on one side made up of a 1 x ???ft sheet and there's another extension made up of what looks like a 1 x 4 foot section carrying a pier and a car-float.  I didn't read the article in a full as it's of little interest but the design did catch my eye as a way better alternative than the usual 4 x 8 which are either a rat's nest of track or the boring loop.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Desertdweller on December 26, 2013, 08:46:42 PM
Once upon a time, you could actually buy 5'x9' plywood sheets at a lumber yard.  That was the size needed for ping-pong table tops (anyone remember ping-pong tables?).

I remember seeing 50 years ago HO track plans drawn for 5'x8' tables.  5' is not too wide for access if neither long side is against a wall.

Les
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Doneldon on December 26, 2013, 10:40:06 PM
Jeff-

You can shorten either end of the through track to decrease the distance between the tracks.

                                                                                                                               -- D
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: GG1onFordsDTandI on December 27, 2013, 02:03:46 AM
Quote from: Ron Zee on November 27, 2013, 03:48:10 AM
The only other way involves a lot of backing up.
Yes it does, but it will end up with a reversed train. :D Took me a while to accept this backing up idea too, but it keeps me hands off ;D. Slow backing is the key, not an issue once used to it.

Roger, face it, You are a rivet counter (good for you, someone has to :D) and should be aware it sometimes comes across a little harsh, and belittling to those who are not as detail oriented ;). It may be a bit of culture clash in written language used too. While I find UK accents very soothing, written word often seems accusing coming from UK associates of mine. Your posts have given me reason to rethink some past correspondence from them, I think I may have read into them wrong. Your closing statement was not missed by all, it was definitely read, and appreciated here.
Thank you for taking time to include it.

Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rogertra on December 27, 2013, 03:04:14 AM
Sorry if I come across as a little harsh sometimes, that's the trouble with just the written word.  It's also probably my writing style.

I'm not exactly a "rivet counter", after all I freelance and therefore I cannot be a rivet counter by definition.  :)  

My modelling is in the "good enough" range.  I'm not a super detailer but I do add details to locos and cabooses as they get looked at the most.  Freight cars are just moving scenery and if they do not stand out, and blend in to the whole picture, that's good enough.  I also weather everything, from road vehicles to "clean" passenger cars and "clean" locomotives as nothing on the real railroad is not weathered to some extent.  Even when passenger cars are taken throught the washing plant, only the sides get cleaned and brushed, the trucks and roofs are just sprayed and not brush cleaned so retain some "weathering".

However, I will admit that I am a prototype modeller, and proud of it I might add, and my modelling tastes tend towards modelling what the prototype does and how it does it, as accurately as possible.  Therefore, as you can tell, I am not a fan of tail chasing, a "just watching the trains go past", type model railroad, no matter how detailed it may be.

Take the featured model railroad in the January MR. The NYC model railroad.  Excellent modelling, excellent scenery, excellent attention to detail but it's a large, double track tail chaser. Nothing for the trains to do once they leave staging but to make a loop around the large layout.  Something I'd never build as I'd find it boring to operate.  Yes, fun for the first visit but then what?

Yes, I can appreciate the fine modelling involved, just not the track plan.  So, I do tend to try and nudge modellers into more prototypical track plans, even on a 4 x 8.  Perhaps sometimes I nudge just a little too hard but that's only because of my enthusiasm for doing it the way the prototype does or as close as we can achieve in the space available.

But, as I frequently state.  If someone likes to sit and watch out-of-the-box freight cars, passenger cars and locos orbit around and around on a sheet of 4 x 8 (or bigger) and they are happy with that, who am I to say they are wrong?


Merry Christmas.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on December 27, 2013, 10:17:40 AM
that's all fine and good, but there isn't any reason you can't accomplish most if not all of that on a 4x8 or 5x10. there are quite a few areas and railroads where everything was of modest size, the western Maryland and clinchfield railroads come to mind.

if all you have on your layout is a circle of track and a couple of sidings, that says more about your willingness or ability to think outside the box, than it does about your space limitations.

also, with regard to rivet counting, it seems to me that many do not see the forest for the trees, and that what gets lost in all the scale fidelity is the context. many can tell you how the tracks were laid out but few can tell you why they were placed the way they were, or why they were used the way they were..... everybody knows what dynamic brakes look like on a diesel, but few can tell what they meant to train handling. I could go on.....

Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on December 27, 2013, 10:19:41 AM
I take it, when referring to the "current" issue of Model Railroader, we are talking about the February 2014 issue?

I would agree Roger that there is more rivet counter in you, than not. ;)
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rogertra on December 27, 2013, 01:44:21 PM
Quote from: jward on December 27, 2013, 10:17:40 AM
that's all fine and good, but there isn't any reason you can't accomplish most if not all of that on a 4x8 or 5x10. there are quite a few areas and railroads where everything was of modest size, the western Maryland and clinchfield railroads come to mind.

I agree and in fact, I said that with regard to the 5 x 10 in the January Model Railroader.  An excellent small layout.

Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rogertra on December 27, 2013, 02:01:45 PM
Quote from: jbrock27 on December 27, 2013, 10:19:41 AM
I take it, when referring to the "current" issue of Model Railroader, we are talking about the February 2014 issue?

I would agree Roger that there is more rivet counter in you, than not. ;)


January MR was the one I was referring to.  The issue with the excellent little 5 x 8 harbour themed layout.   Sorry for any confusion.

As for "rivet counter"?  A rivet counter is one who strives for accuracy down to the smallest detail on their models.  As I freelance, by definition I cannot be one.  I also run out-of-the-box Athearn Blue box freight cars and various other brands that are not considered high end models with little more done to them than some weathering, replacing plastic wheels with metal wheels and adding body mounted Kadee couplers.  Hardly "rivet counting", given the accuracy of most of the older ready to run, out-of-the-box freight cars.  :) 

Yes, I do add extra details to my locomotives.  Diesels I add three chime airhorns, place the bells where they are typically placed on Canadian units and add m.u. hoses as required.  I generally kitbash the steam fleet, particularly tenders to make them shorter, and add and move boiler details around to give a family look but that's not rivet counting.  Some people on this board do a way better job of kitbashing steam than I do.

My over all modelling approach is "Good Enough", especially considering my poor eyesight.  Again, hardly "rivet counting."  :)

However, do I subscribe to prototype track design etc. and prototype operation?  Yes, there I plead guilty.



Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: GG1onFordsDTandI on December 27, 2013, 03:42:21 PM
While growing up Grandpa had a number of layouts from 4' x 8' to 18' x 35'. Some had sidings, ground cover, cities, stations, trees, cliffs, tunnels, and yards others where just loops on green painted tables....well, all but one had loops, he did a point to point too, but hated it....Anyhow despite appearing to just run mindless loops, that was not the case. If you watched him after a stop at a station, or even a designated drop spot along the track, you would see him clicking a handheld lap counter, keeping track of how many laps he had done. Why? He was keeping track of "miles in scale" to prototypically replicate the travel between two US cities. Once the proper number of laps was achieved, he would stop the train remove or add cars and adjust his orders. Sometimes it would even be at the same station if the layout only had one, but he had covered the same amount of scale miles as a prototype. I remember having to back up about 20 laps once after "passing" St Paul a bit. Gramps was not rivet counter in his mind, because he ran mostly 0-27, and wouldn't dream of messing with weathering on his shiny clean trains. But, He was a prototypical "runner" to the extent I would disagree, and call him a rivet counter. Point is, no matter how small or "loopy", prototypical running a train is always possible to some extent, its a matter of balancing compromises, application, and imagination.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on December 27, 2013, 04:36:14 PM
Roger, thank you for the info on the MRR issue; no need to apologize.  Is it possible it is a 2 part series on this excellent small layout, that appears in the January issue and ends in the February issue?

I am not sure that your description of "rivet counter" is Websters or that there is even a standard, worldwide definition and don't wish to produce a argument with you over it ole boy, but I would suggest by the fact that you are able to point out the "faults" of such things as the Athearn Blue boxes so easily, could make you more of one than not :)  
Innocence or guilt, need not be claimed.  Just having fun is the point afterall, agree?
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Doneldon on December 27, 2013, 05:49:21 PM
I guess I'd like to jump in on the 4x8 issue, too. I have often suggested that newbies think around the room or along the wall instead of a 4x8, but I recognize that sometimes a 4x8 is what has to be done.

I built a pike for my now 14-year-old grandson on a 4x8 table. (CUE: sudden harsh note from the strings.) Why? Well, for one, I couldn't undertake to install trains on the walls of someone else's home. And maybe Cole will lose interest in trains, at least for his educational years. I didn't exactly lose interest during high school, college, grad school and the Navy, but I lived in a smallish apartment during high school, dorms in college, student ghetto digs in grad school and quarters in the service. Plus, I didn't have two nickels to rub together most of the time. So ... I built the occasional kit during those years, dreamed a lot, and re-subscribed to MR once I added part-time work to my school life. Then came children and the desire to build some adult relationships. The kids were a great excuse to build a small pike (4.5x6.5) but I had neither the time nor money for a significant effort. Eventually I got back into railroading but we moved 18 months ago. Now I can start again in a dedicated train room (too small but I have designs on some adjacent unallocated space for staging yards) and I'm preparing to build again.

Oh, yeah. My grandson's 4x8 which was the point of this post. It has a double track mainline with crossovers both ways, a reasonable yard throat for a small yard, a mess of industries (some grouped on the same spur), and a turntable with a three-stall roundhouse. That's everything he wanted and it works. I designed it (actually I adapted it) so he would learn about facing- and trailing-point switches, switchbacks, and the need to plan train building to make switching easier. It has a city on an upper level overlooking the yard and engine terminal, with the main passenger station overhead so the mains and yard throat look like a three-track subterranean station. He has a small mountain with a waterfall and a tunnel. The isolated corners serve various purposes including a neighborhood, the bad side of town, a cattle pen and his home. The home ended up in the middle of a desert even though he lives in northern Wisconsin where things are quite a bit greener. Yes, that's an awful lot of track on a 4x8 and the mainline isn't very long, but he loves it. The city and mountain make the layout seem more linear because you can't see most of the turnback curves and a central view block and isolated corners give the feel of a much larger space.

I guess what I'm saying is that a 4x8 can be a worthwhile effort and one can have an interesting model railroad in that space, even if it isn't what I'm building for myself (a two-level around the room set-up). It's not exactly prototype railroading, but neither is the New York Central filling a whole basement.

                                                                                                                                                   -- D
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Steve Magee on December 27, 2013, 07:50:49 PM
The only problem with a 4' x 8', especially for a child's layout, is that for some reason the actual table top area is often regarded as sacrosanct, so we run the loop around the outside and then put all loops, spurs etc on the inside. Blow that for a joke. Cut a space about 4' x 2' out of the middle and set it up to be controlled from there. The child clambers under the layout (they can still do that sort of stuff :-) ) and pops up in the middle into their own little world, surrounded by trains, and everything is in easy reach. The cutout bit can be then cut in half and used to make the layout 10' x 4', yet still reachable from the "operating pit". Oh and that way it can also be put up against a wall and still everything is in reach.

Steve Magee
Newcastle NSW  Aust
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on December 27, 2013, 08:18:22 PM
Doc, I would love to see a picture :)!
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rogertra on December 27, 2013, 09:03:03 PM
Quote from: jbrock27 on December 27, 2013, 04:36:14 PM
Roger, thank you for the info on the MRR issue; no need to apologize.  Is it possible it is a 2 part series on this excellent small layout, that appears in the January issue and ends in the February issue?

I am not sure that your description of "rivet counter" is Websters or that there is even a standard, worldwide definition and don't wish to produce a argument with you over it ole boy, but I would suggest by the fact that you are able to point out the "faults" of such things as the Athearn Blue boxes so easily, could make you more of one than not :)  
Innocence or guilt, need not be claimed.  Just having fun is the point afterall, agree?

I agree, 100%    :)

Happy New Year.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rogertra on December 27, 2013, 09:07:40 PM
Quote from: jbrock27 on December 27, 2013, 04:36:14 PM
Roger, thank you for the info on the MRR issue; no need to apologize.  Is it possible it is a 2 part series on this excellent small layout, that appears in the January issue and ends in the February issue?


It's a multi part series over three or four or more issues starting with the January issue.  I'd recommend it to anyone who is short of space and want's to avoid the "typical" 4 x 8.

Happy New Year.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on December 27, 2013, 09:22:03 PM
when I was a child my first real layout, as opposed to running my dad's, was a 5x10 based upon a pike called the ute central out of one of the old kalmbach layout plan books. we narrowed the curves to 18r, added 3 passing tracks and several industries, and used the foot of space gained for a small yard. unfortunately, we couldn't do anything about the 6% grade up the back, but that provided an excuse to use helpers on the rear of longer trains. scenic highlight was a bridge 10" above the lowest level.

of all the layouts I ever built I think I liked that one the best. it could keep 3 people busy, 2 out on the road and one in the yard. the yard engine doubled as the helper to push the trains up the 6%, the yard engineer would return the engine back to the yard after the push.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rogertra on December 27, 2013, 10:59:03 PM
Quote from: jward on December 27, 2013, 09:22:03 PM
when I was a child my first real layout, as opposed to running my dad's, was a 5x10 based upon a pike called the ute central out of one of the old kalmbach layout plan books. we narrowed the curves to 18r, added 3 passing tracks and several industries, and used the foot of space gained for a small yard. unfortunately, we couldn't do anything about the 6% grade up the back, but that provided an excuse to use helpers on the rear of longer trains. scenic highlight was a bridge 10" above the lowest level.

of all the layouts I ever built I think I liked that one the best. it could keep 3 people busy, 2 out on the road and one in the yard. the yard engine doubled as the helper to push the trains up the 6%, the yard engineer would return the engine back to the yard after the push.

That sounds like it was a really fun layout to operate.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on December 28, 2013, 08:50:33 AM
Thank you for the info Roger and Happy New Year (Hogmanay)  to you!!

I bought the January issue last night.

Jeff, what were you using for risers that resulted in a 6% grade?  It was not an Atlas Pier set was it?
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on December 28, 2013, 11:09:56 AM
no, I have never used pier sets. they never were tall enough. remember, that track had to climb 10".....

as I recall, the track was laid on wood risers cut to fit. a design flaw was that we used a solid plywood sub base, with all elevated track on plywood atop the risers. the only exceptions were the two bridges, which we temporarily made out of 1/4" flat moulding strips assembled in an upside down "u" shape. 
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on December 28, 2013, 11:22:02 AM
Thank you Jeff.

I thought you had used the Atlas Pier set before. ???   I remember asking you about them once and you replied  they worked well because they could be placed anywhere along sectional (traditional) track.

Anyway, the reason I asked is to have an idea of what grade the set comes to, as I had gone ahead and purchased one after getting your feedback on it with the idea of using it on a new layout. 

Thanks.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on December 28, 2013, 11:27:44 AM
yeah, my dad had one, and though it worked well in his situation, it left a lot to be desired visually. plus, it was limited to the height of the tallest pier, 3".....

using the plywood atop wooden risers was and is a much more flexible system. I still use it to-day. the only refinements I have made on subsequent layouts is to eliminate the solid plywood base in favour of an open grid table, and the use of custom fit sections of 1x4 pine instead of plywood atop the risers. pine is much better for handlaid track, as plywood is way too hard to drive spikes into.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on December 28, 2013, 11:56:11 AM
Thanks again for getting back to me.  I know what you mean about the visual and height limitations.  I was going to paint/weather the piers.  Also, I plan on using foam board on top of a plywood base and was going to either hot glue the piers to the form board or get long enough finish nails to secure the feet of the piers to the foam/table.  If necessary, making the 2 holes in each of the piers a little bigger to accommodate the nails.  I would also predrill a pilot hole in the plywood, if I go with using just nails.

I do like the look of these piers better than the AHM or TYCO or old Life Like and old Bachmann ones.

PS-Jeff, any idea what the grade is on the Atlas set, using as is?  Thank you.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on December 28, 2013, 02:53:30 PM
the atlas piers are in 1/4" increments, so using one under each section of track would be about 3%. there are alsoa set of 1/8" shims include in the set, or at least there used to be. I would use the unshimmed piers under the track joints, and the shimmed ones under the middles of the track sections for added support. all of this assumes you are using the standard 9" straight, or full 18r or 22r sections. those are engineered to be close to 9" in length.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on December 29, 2013, 09:15:15 AM
Very good.  I would rather have 3% than 6% :)  Thank you Jeff.  Yes, you are correct, I will be using traditional sectional track that comes standard in 9" sections.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rookie123 on December 29, 2013, 02:57:59 PM
I have a 47 x 38 oval layout which I've extended to 82" and would like to put another oval inside this one. What radius curves should I buy?

Thanks,
Rookie

I actually already have another oval outside the 38 x 82 and want to end up with 3 total ovals with three different trains running.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rookie123 on December 30, 2013, 08:40:52 AM
I think I answered my own question. I thought 18 radius was degrees but it's inches so 18 makes a 36 wide curve. So i'm going to need some 15's in to make an interior loop of 30 wide curve.

Just getting started. Thanks.
Rookie
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on December 30, 2013, 12:35:48 PM
R123, re: the 15" radius curves-how many axles are the locos you run?  Scale length of cars?  The reason I ask is that the short stuff runs well and looks good on on 15" radius, but when you get up to 50ft cars and 6 axle locos, there may be some trouble a brew-in.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on December 30, 2013, 08:58:07 PM
jerry is right. 15r is only suitable for the very shortest locomotives and cars and even then, just barely. if you have 2 loops of track, at 18r and 22r, you have almost enough room to put a third track between the two. insert a couple of short 1 or 2 inch sections of track midway around the 22r end curves. then you can lay the center track using alternating 22r and 18r sections to make an approximately 20r curve. by doing so you'll eliminate the problems of 15r curves. without having to widen your layout for larger curves.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Doneldon on December 30, 2013, 09:51:12 PM
rookie-

Think twice or three times about adding a 15-inch radius oval inside of the existing one. Such tight, tight curves are only negotiable by the very smallest steam locomotives, four-wheel truck diesels, 40- or some 50-foot freight cars and shortie passenger equipment. The 18-inch curves are already very tight and you could wind up with trains sideswiping one another if they pass through the curves at the same time. I think you will experience a lot of frustration if you add this loop. It might work better to have a few spur tracks for industries or even a small yard inside of your loop.
                                                                                                                                                                             -- D
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rookie123 on December 31, 2013, 09:28:02 AM
Thanks very much for the recommendations. Let me consider them and i'll likely get back to you.

Happy New Year,
Rookie
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on December 31, 2013, 02:36:15 PM
Happy New Year to you and yours as well!
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rookie123 on December 31, 2013, 05:26:12 PM
So I plan to put all three trains on three oval tracks on a 4 x 8 piece of plywood and then build in different levels including tunnels and mountains. My 4.5 and 3.5 year old grandson like to have all the trains they can get. Based on what you all have shared I need to have the outside oval be made of 22 inch radius with maybe a 3 inch straight insert so i have a 47 inch oval curve. I would plan an inner oval made of 18 inch track so it would be 36 inch oval. What would I need to put an oval between the two? Based on what you suggest the 15 inch oval would be a problem.

Thanks for all the help,
Rookie
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Doneldon on December 31, 2013, 08:57:04 PM
rook-

It's your railroad so you can do whatever you want. We're just trying to point out that most model railroaders find 15" curves to be too sharp for rewarding operation.

Perhaps you need to revisit what I think is your main premise, that you should have separate tracks which will allow you to run three trains simultaneously. You can certainly do that with three concentric circles or ovals but you and your children will tire of that much sooner than you perhaps understand. You can do that with 15" curves as long as you only put small locomotives and rolling stock on the innermost circle. But ask your self this question: If a series of independent, concentric tracks is desirable or interesting, why do so few model railroaders (almost zero) do that? The answer is that just watching trains go around and around quickly becomes boring so the hobbyist must either tear everything up and start over or just put the trains away and forget them.

Now I understand that you feel some pressure to get trains running for your children and, dare I speculate, yourself. So use some EZTrack to set up a couple of loops on the floor (I can't believe I actually suggested putting trains on the floor!) and have fun while you look into alternative possibilities. Heck, you can buy some inexpensive piers, or make your own for next to nothing, and have one track climb a grade and cross another track. Get some suitable boxes and make temporary tunnels. The little ones will love that. You can even buy a product called "tunnel paper" which you can apply to the boxes and make them look like an approximation of hills or mountains. Or get some cheap spray paint in camo colors at a home store and paint your own version of the great outdoors. The EZTrack will let you assemble and disassemble your layout as needed. That won't work at all well with non-roadbed track. Once you have congealed your permanent plans you can use the EZTrack as part of the final set-up.

No one here is trying to give you a hard time or discourage you. Quite the contrary, we are trying to help you have an experience with model railroading that you and your children will enjoy and possibly decide to pursue as time goes by. Welcome to the hobby.
                                                                                                                                                                                                -- D
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on January 01, 2014, 12:02:23 PM
for your third loop, use these formulas:

180 degree turn, 22r-18r-22r-18r-22r-18r-22r-18r-22r

90 degree turn: 22r-18r- 1/2 18r-22r
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: historymuseum2000 on January 01, 2014, 03:41:18 PM
Greetings all! New to the forum but have been involved with model RR'ing to some degree or another most of my life. I started out in the usual way with an HO scale loop set and grew from there. Eventually Pop and I had built the "Central Midland" from the classic Atlas layout book Six HO Railroads You Can Build. Anyhow time marches on and on a whim I got out my son's old Bachmann EZ track set that I had bought him for Xmas when he was 4 or 5 and set it up under our tree an my 11 year old daughter took an avid interest as well . That was all it took and I started looking for more permanent space and ideas in our house. 4x8 is the perfect size for the space I have available and this thread has been very informative on to the many possibilities I can go with there.

Anyhow enough of my life story! Just wanted to say I've found the thread very useful and it has been great to share with my daughter! Here is what I ended up with under our tree. Thanks all and Happy New Year!

Lee(//URL=http://s183.photobucket.com/user/historymuseum2000/media/1483363_10201879081850553_178908645_n.jpg.html%5Dhttp://%5Bimg%20width=500%20height=298%5Dhttp://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x308/historymuseum2000/1483363_10201879081850553_178908645_n.jpg)[/URL]][/img]
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rookie123 on January 01, 2014, 04:50:21 PM
Jeffery, thanks so much for this information on the formula. Starting with 3 oval loops for the grandkids but I know it's going to grow into something else by next Christmas.

Again thanks and Happy New Year,
Rookie
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: show33 on January 03, 2014, 09:35:27 AM
Having fun experimenting with a 4 x 8 layout. Have tried a few different things...nothing that strikes me as being my permanent set up yet.

jward, do you have the track list for the verdant valley layout you posted on page 2 of this thread?

Have checked out a couple of the Atlas plans online...is the Atlas track similar in radius/length to EZ track? Would an Atlas plan translate to EZ track

Thanks
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on January 03, 2014, 09:50:17 AM
here is the track list for the verdant valley:

Track
44501, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44501. Curve radius 18", angle 30º   11
44503, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44503. Curve radius 22", angle 22.5º   16
44511, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44511. Straight 9".   10
44512, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44512. Straight 3".   2
44513, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44513. Straight 2.25".   4
44514, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44514. Straight 4.5".   7
44561, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44561. Left turnout 9". radius 18"  (remote)   2
44562, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44562. Right turnout 9". radius 18"  (remote)   5
44591, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44591. Buffer/Bumper 2.75".   3
44592-2, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44592-2. Straight 1".   3
44592-3, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44592-3. Straight 1.25".   3
44592-5, H0 Bachmann E-Z Track 44592-5. Straight 2".   2


as for the atlas plans translating to ez track, most of the switches have a completely different geometry than atlas, making it impossible to build them without modification.

the atlas and ez track straights, all 18r curves, and the full 22r section are the same. the Bachmann 18r switch is similar to the atlas snap switch, except that the Bachmann has a 30 degree curved side, and the atlas 20 degrees. adding a 1/3 section of 18r to the atlas switch gets you a direct replacement to the ez track one, but most atlas plans use the 20 degree arc. all the numbered ez track switches take upf ar more room than their atlas equivalents.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: show33 on January 03, 2014, 10:48:20 AM
Awesome jward, thanks for the response
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Len on January 03, 2014, 11:26:08 AM
Almost all of the plans in the Atlas "True-Track" plan book will work with EZ-Track.

And if you really want a second loop using 15" radius curves, consider using it for a trolley line. Most 4-wheel trolleys will operate down to 9" radius, so 15" radius curves are actually pretty broad for their use.

Len
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: show33 on January 03, 2014, 03:43:06 PM
In the same vein as an earlier post regarding 18 and 22 degree curves, could you do an alternating 18 degree, 15 degree curve oval? Would that be small enough inside an 18 degree oval?
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on January 03, 2014, 08:16:27 PM
no it would not. your trains will sideswipe.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: show33 on January 03, 2014, 08:22:22 PM
Makes sense, thanks Jward
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Joe Satnik on January 03, 2014, 11:12:33 PM
(http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz296/joebarb/cc19892f-ffff-4843-b358-77d5c5912b4d_zps02285432.jpg)

Keywords: John Armstrong, concentric, triple, circle, 2.25 spacing, cork, flex

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik


Edit:  added Keywords, signature.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rookie123 on January 04, 2014, 09:17:37 AM
I would like to thank everyone for their responses - it really has helped me. Getting 3 ovals with three different trains working for my grandsons (3.5 and 4.5 years old) has been a blast - they just love it and love to put dinos and people in the cars to take them on a ride. it's the Dinosaur Train they say.

Someone said it will get boring at some point and I know it will. As they get older then we'll look at some special layouts including elevation changes, mountains and tunnels. I'll have them involved in these changes which is really going to be fun.

Again thanks,
Rookie
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rookie123 on January 04, 2014, 09:24:36 AM
Oh by the way, the 15 in radius oval is working very well with the Bachmann Chattanooga Choo Choo running on it. Had to put some lead tape on the tender to weight it down but now it goes full speed w/o issue.

Rookie
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: AGSB on January 04, 2014, 01:25:21 PM
While prowling the internet today I came across these two PDF documents on a design challenge for a 32 sq. ft. layout. Not confined to a 4x8 configuration but must be no larger than 32 sq. ft.

40+ layout designs and write ups.

Part A (http://ldopsigmeet.tulsanmra.org/resources/DesignChallengeHandoutPartA.pdf)

Part B (http://ldopsigmeet.tulsanmra.org/resources/DesignChallengeHandoutPartB.pdf)
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rookie123 on January 05, 2014, 11:17:29 AM
I need some more advise please. I've decided how the current HO 4 x 8 will be expanded almost double but have some questions.

1. I have no vibration on the pool table but can I expect it when I put the layout on foam on top of plywood?
2. What foam should I use for building landscaping?
3. What is the recommended type of foam and what thickness should i use to minimize any vibration?
4. What is the recommendation on rate of incline as I plan to have tracks at different elevations?

Thanks in advance,
Rookie
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Jerrys HO on January 05, 2014, 12:52:03 PM
r123,

1. What type of vibes are you expecting? There should be no vibration just because your layout is on foam. A lot of modelers do it that way as it makes it easy to create rivers and uneven terrain.
2.This is going to depend on what you prefer to use. I would suggest picking up a couple of scenery how to books to help you out.
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=kalmbach+scenery&tag=googhydr-20&index=stripbooks&hvadid=32992605865&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3285281781010833085&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_9lfkjkv6pk_b
I use plaster cloth and foam board to build a lot of scenery.
3. I would suggest extruded foam board sold at most big home improvement stores. I have only seen it in pink and blue. You can see it in this link..
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Owens-Corning-FOAMULAR-150-2-in-x-48-in-x-8-ft-Scored-Squared-Edge-Foam-45W/100320352#
The thickness will depend on what you are trying to achieve in your scenery. It also depends on where you live as here in the south I have only found it in 3/4 and 1/4 so I doubled to achieve what I was doing. Up north they are lucky enough to find foam board a lot thicker like 2 to 6 inch thicknesses. I wish I could have access to that but it's a little to late.
4. This will be your biggest challenge as 2 to 3% grades are the most I would recommend with 3 pushing it a little steep. I have a 3% grade on my layout but I do have the room to stretch out the approach and declining track. If you have a turn on the incline I would recommend sticking with the largest radius possible. I learned the hard way and now I am replacing with larger radius turns.

Hope this helps and if I can think of more I will add to this.

Jerry  
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Jerrys HO on January 05, 2014, 01:08:02 PM
Quote from: historymuseum2000 on January 01, 2014, 03:41:18 PM
Greetings all! New to the forum but have been involved with model RR'ing to some degree or another most of my life. I started out in the usual way with an HO scale loop set and grew from there. Eventually Pop and I had built the "Central Midland" from the classic Atlas layout book Six HO Railroads You Can Build. Anyhow time marches on and on a whim I got out my son's old Bachmann EZ track set that I had bought him for Xmas when he was 4 or 5 and set it up under our tree an my 11 year old daughter took an avid interest as well . That was all it took and I started looking for more permanent space and ideas in our house. 4x8 is the perfect size for the space I have available and this thread has been very informative on to the many possibilities I can go with there.

Anyhow enough of my life story! Just wanted to say I've found the thread very useful and it has been great to share with my daughter! Here is what I ended up with under our tree. Thanks all and Happy New Year!

Lee(//URL=http://s183.photobucket.com/user/historymuseum2000/media/1483363_10201879081850553_178908645_n.jpg.html%5Dhttp://%5Bimg%20width=500%20height=298%5Dhttp://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x308/historymuseum2000/1483363_10201879081850553_178908645_n.jpg)[/URL]][/img]

Lee,
It's great to hear this thread has helped you out. I have been PM'd by others that liked some of the smaller designs and requested a material list. I know of at least one that has completed one and it runs flawlessly.
I also want to thank all the other board members for their support as I probably could not get as technical as you have.

AGSB,
Thanks for the links I like almost every design.

Jerry
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on January 05, 2014, 01:10:27 PM
with grades I have 4% grades on my layout. I have no problems with them and 18r turns.but keep in mind that the pulling power of your locomotives will be 1/6 what they pull on the level. it follows that with steeper graes you will be running shorter trains, something that you should be running anyway if you have 18r curves.

my average locomotive will pull 5 or 6 cars on a 4% grade, with a couple pulling up to 12. that's plenty long enough for the small layout I have.

converted into easily calculated increments, 4% is equal to about 3/8" rise per full track section, 3% is 1/4" rise per section.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Doneldon on January 05, 2014, 05:58:58 PM
rook-

I'll jump on the bandwagon here and give you my opinions on your questions. And they are exactly that: opinions. They are no better and no worse than anyone else's because there are big doses of experience and preference that go into them.

1. Rigidity won't be a problem, especially if you use a plywood base. But you don't need to do that if you use two-inch foam which is well supported by cross members and cleats along the edges. In fact, the plywood will complicate things because you'll actually have to drill holes for wiring instead of just poking through the foam with a screwdriver or an icepick.

2. & 3. Get the blue or pink extruded foam insulation. Do NOT get white foam. It's no where near as strong and it's a huge mess to work with. You can use scraps of the foam (or the white stuff since you aren't looking for strength) to build general terrain contours. Hold it all together with plastic-safe construction adhesive or caulk. Cover the foam contours with plaster cloth similar to the stuff doctors use for casting broken bones. It's fairly inexpensive if you shop for it on line. MicroMark has some which is much less expensive than Woodland Scenics. I put my plaster cloth in place dry, holding it together with a few strategic drips of water. Then I spritz it until it is quite wet and smooth out the cloth texture with my fingers or a wide brush. I tint the water with dark paint so the plaster isn't bone white if it cracks or gets chipped. I sometimes leave vertical surfaces of the foam bare so I can slather on some Sculptamold and carve cliffs or rock strata.

You can also use bunched up newspaper for your general contours but take them out from under once the plaster sets because they'll get mildewed and stinky after a while. Another possibility is one-inch wide corrugated cardboard strips stapled or hot glued together for the framework under the plaster cloth. Or try each method a little and see what seems the best or most fun for you.

4. Grades are the bane of railroads, big and small. The real ones will lay miles of unnecessary track to flatten or avoid a grade because they are such a challenge to operations. Our little trains actually handle grades better than the twelve-inches-to-the-foot railroads do but they are still a problem, at least partly because our usually confined spaces don't permit us to go all over creation to dodge a grade or flatten one out. I think a two-percent grade is a good maximum and I would never go over three except on a narrow gauge or industrial line (like a logging or mining set up) using geared locomotives. And remember that curves "enhance" the effects of grades so back off on the steepness if the trackage is curvy.

My last thought isn't an opinion: Have fun.
                                                                    -- D
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on January 05, 2014, 10:15:58 PM
R123, you have thus far gotten terrific suggestions.

If I understand you from what you said, it sounds like you would like to build something to put on top of your pool table.  Do you have something removable in mind?

Anyway, I have come across this video series on line and never get tired of watching them.  Here is the link and you can view each of the 9 videos in the series; they go over the type of foam that has been suggested and how to cut and shape it.  They also go over how to build a 4 x 8 from start to finish.  Just a sampling of what's out there, but I like these bc I find them  easy to understand.   I hope this helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyenCuseToA

Jerry, I will gladly trade you some 2" foam for some temperatures above -10 F :D
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rookie123 on January 06, 2014, 08:55:45 AM
Guys you don't know how much I appreciate your responses and suggestions/knowledge. The pool table is a little bigger than 4 x 8 on top of the rails but smaller inside the rails where I have 3 loops and 3 different trains running now. I would raise it to the top of the rails and add another 46" x 96" section with a 24" x 54" cutout in the middle to provided access. I'd like to be able to take it down in two pieces but I doubt I would ever do that as the grandsons are totally into it.

In the next few weeks I'd plan to install the 2 sections (plywood maybe) followed by layout of the track configuration which I have not finalized on. I getting lots of input from this site as well as others and have a pretty good idea what I want. I'm thinking about running 3 trains on 3 loops all a different elevations with some cross overs with a town somewhere in the middle.

Again thanks so much,
Rookie
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on January 06, 2014, 12:37:30 PM
Ahh, I misunderstood you, sorry.  I see you are using the pool table as the base of your layout.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Doneldon on January 07, 2014, 04:15:20 AM
rook-

Two concerns: I think you'll find the 24-inch width of your access hole too narrow for comfortable operations and impossible if you expect to have a grandson in there with you. Plus, you don't need the central access for a 4x8 unless a long side is against a wall. Second, you could have serious problems with grades if you try to connect three loops on different levels unless those levels are only separated by a couple of inches. Even then it will be difficult because your center loop will have to go up to reach the top tier and down to reach the lowest level.

I'm not sure of your plans but it sounds like your goal might be two 4x8 plywood sheets joined along their long edges yielding an 8x8 layout. That will require a tremendous amount of space because you'll need a minimum of 30 inches all around. That means a room at least 14x14 and you won't be able to use it for anything else. I strenuously urge you to think about a narrow shelf layout around the walls if you have that much space.  You'll find such an arrangement much better. You can have longer runs, easier access, easier construction and wiring, a more immersive experience and faster results. You can also build a peninsula or two into your layout, possibly for a city, yard or engine terminal.

An 8x8 layout won't sit on your pool table without legs along the perimeter because there will be too much sag if the only support is what in effect will be a large pedestal. You can certainly make an 8x8 so it divides into two sections but, even with lightweight construction (which we haven' talked about yet), the sections will be too cumbersome, if not to heavy, for one person to handle safely. The pieces will be a bear to store unless you have no scenery or structures more than a few inches high. And those features will be subject to serious damage while the train boards are on their edges.
                                                                                                                                                                                    -- D
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rookie123 on January 07, 2014, 08:19:16 AM
I posted the layout I'm thinking about here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sue_rookie/11817723794/

The basement room is huge 25 x 20 so not a problem. Will use 1" foam on plywood or 4" foam as base with proper support structure.

The inner track would be a ground zero all the way around. The middle track would be at elevation 1" and the outer loop at 2". The middle and outer loops would rise 1" to 2" and 3" respectively on the far side of the town with all the landscaping needed to have a tunnel and bridge system. The open space would only be for setup, landscaping, derailment, etc as the controls would be on the outside of the 8' x 8' layout. I'm considering how to connect the two outside loops with cross overs.

Does 22" radius for the two outer loops and 18" for the inner loop seem OK? Does it take 4 sections of 22" radius to make a 90 degree turn? I would plan to install the tracks at ground level zero for testing before installing the different elevations and risers.

I would appreciate any suggestions you might have. Thanks very much.
Rookie
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Joe Satnik on January 07, 2014, 10:47:22 AM
Rook,

For Bachmann HO Nickel-Silver E-Z Track:

15"R - 30 degrees

18"R - 30, 15 and 10 degrees

22"R - 22.5 and 11.25 degrees (22.5 x 4 = 90 degrees)

26"R- 18 degrees

28"R - 18 degrees

33.25"R - 6, 12 and 18 degrees

33.5"R - 18 degrees.

98 percent of all your questions (including the chart above) can be answered by downloading and using AnyRail.com track CAD program. 

It's free (for the first 50 track pieces) and fun to learn.  You can solve most track connection (geometry) problems with less than 50 pieces. 

When you get good at it, you can export your design to your photo hosting website and put a link to it here.

Your design begs for larger radius (26"R or 28"R?) curves on the outside loop.  Do you understand how to lay out "concentric" curves?

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rookie123 on January 07, 2014, 11:56:45 AM
Wow Joe. Some excellent information and I will run with your suggestions - I'll download the app and see what happens. I love doing that kind of thing.

Again thanks for the enlightenment,
Rookie
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rookie123 on January 07, 2014, 12:04:00 PM
Joe it seems the software will only run on Windows and I'm 100% Apple. If I can get a cheap copy of Windows I'll install it on my Mac and see if that works. Poop.....

Thanks again,
Rookie
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Morgun 30 on January 07, 2014, 02:45:49 PM
Rookie, I drew up a plan I could send you. It's 14x7, but I could make it larger.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Joe Satnik on January 07, 2014, 03:25:41 PM
Rook,

People are throwing away or paying recyclers to take old XP (perhaps even Vista) desktop machines off their hands...

Someone you know has one gathering dust in their basement and would gladly give it to you. 

Joe 

Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rookie123 on January 07, 2014, 04:09:41 PM
morgue, I like that. just email it to rookie123@comcast.net.

Thanks
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Morgun 30 on January 07, 2014, 09:52:41 PM
Rookie, 3 emails sent
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Doneldon on January 08, 2014, 04:36:31 AM
rook-

That's an awful lot of work and expense for a railroad which just runs laps over and over. I'm not sure how long it will remain interesting and engaging. Also, watching your layout will be like looking down into an open pit mine since the edges will be higher than the middle. Layouts which can be viewed at or near eye level are much more immersive and realistic than the ones we must look down on.
                                                                                                                                                                                      -- D
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rookie123 on January 08, 2014, 07:55:03 AM
Donelson, thanks for the tips. Had not thought about it from that perspective. Will do some more thinking about complexity and elevation differences. I've got to keep 3.5 and 4.5 year old interested for a few years before they get to the age that want to make it something else. I don't think I want to start at a complex endpoint with them.

I love people that help me think about things.
Rookie
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: rookie123 on January 08, 2014, 07:57:26 AM
Joe, could not Winebottle to work but I've found a Windows 7 program that I can install on my Mac later today and then run any rail software.

Appreciate your help,
Rookie
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Joe Satnik on January 08, 2014, 10:47:31 AM
Yeah, but, with 2 computers and a chair on rollers you would have a command station. 
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on February 07, 2014, 11:43:39 AM
Quote from: Johnson Bar Jeff on December 11, 2013, 03:52:29 PM
Quote from: hhartman on December 11, 2013, 11:27:29 AM
Quote from: Johnson Bar Jeff on December 11, 2013, 11:03:03 AM
So there are two plans from the 1950s that originally used 15-inch-radius curves. Were 15-R curves more commonly used "back then"?  ???

Yes, and sometimes as small as 13"R.  Most modelers didn't have the extra room for large train layouts back then so most layout designs were small (the 4x8 being very common).  In fact, Atlas's 22"R was considered a luxury back then.  Of course, we didn't run (nor were they commonly available back then anyway) UP Big Boys or Challengers on 4x8 layouts but the popular little 0-4-0 "Docksides", "Little Hustler" diesels, and 40ft freight cars operated just fine on the tighter curves.

Harvey

Thanks! That's interesting to know. (Some of us don't have room for large layouts today, either.  ;) ) That probably explains a couple of things: I'm sure I read somewhere that the minimum radius for Mantua's "General" is 12 inches, and also why the instruction sheet that came with my old Atlas pier set mentioned how to use the piers if you were using 15-inch-radius curves (would have made an awfully steep grade, I would think).

JBJ

Last night I was browsing through my collection of old Mantua/Tyco catalogs, and I actually took time to read the catalog from 1957, the oldest catalog in my collection. I was surprised to notice that in that catalog Tyco was pushing its new 12"-radius sectional track. That's right: 12-inch radius. The 12-inch curves were touted as advantageous for people with very little space but who still wanted a layout.

Tyco claimed that all the engines in the catalog, except the 4-6-2 and the 2-8-2, would actually run on the 12-inch curves. (I have to imagine that even a 41-foot car would not have looked too good going around a 12-inch curve.)

Three other things interested me in that catalog. One, some of the train sets actually came packaged with 15"-radius curve track sections. Two, this was apparently the time that Mantua/Tyco was transitioning from its own, older-style hook-and-loop couplers to the then-new horn-hook couplers. Three, apparently the "General," in a ready-to-run train set with a combine and a coach, was new that year.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Len on February 08, 2014, 10:05:09 AM
I believe Tyco also had 9" radius curves embedded in street sections for use with trolleys.

If really pressed for space, Peco makes a line of sectional track called "Set-track", for obvious reasons, that has pretty tight curves using code 100 rail that can be connected to EZ-Track.

Appoximate sizes are:
R1 - 14.6" radius
Double curve 14.6/17.2 easement
R2 - 17.2" radius
Double curve 17.2/19.9 easement
R3 - 19.9" radius
R4 - 22.5" radius
There are also turnouts with equivelent radius diverging tracks.

Item numbers start with "ST' vs the "SL" of their "Stream-line" track system.

Len
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: show33 on February 14, 2014, 10:10:08 AM
Guys:
Just following up on this thread. After some experimenting I settled on the following layout. Idea was to get a good amount of track in a 4 x 8 set up with some good switching and siding operations...using just standard turnouts and 18 degree curves.

Idea was to see if the kids and I took a liking to the hobby and will expand/replace as needed. Well, happy to say everyone is enjoying the hobby and we will be expanding as finances allow.

Have to say I am totally impressed with the Bachmann products out of the box. We have the two locos from the Digital Commander set and just added some silver series rolling stock. Everything is so much better quality that what I remember as a kid 30 years ago.

I really like the EZ command...simply to use and durable. I can use it and enjoy it, but the best part is I have no problems handing it to my three year old son - he is able to operate the trains, switch between the two locos, and (with a little help!) turn the lights on and I don't worry about him breaking it

Good stuff so far...looking forward to claiming more room in the basement to expand

Would be interested to hear thoughts on my initial layout...I think it's a pretty good "starter" layout that was built on a fairly tight budget



(http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p760/mshowan/layout_zps41b74e11.jpg)
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Morgun 30 on February 14, 2014, 03:12:41 PM
I like the look of it. Like you said, I think it is a good 1st lay-out to see how much interest the kids will have. ( I'm guessing a lot) The thing that I'm concerned about is the radius turn-outs. Back to back like they are, it appears that they create S curves which could cause derailments. Having to constantly stop to put the train back on the track could cause a loss in interest in the hobby. But like I said, I do like the concept you have and think it's a good lay out
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on February 14, 2014, 09:13:26 PM
any s curve issues can be easily solved by using #4 or #5 switches in place of the 18r ones shown in the plan.

as a general rule, I don't favour the use of 18r switches anyway. sure they are drop in replacements for standard track sections which makes it easy to design layouts using them. but in practice, they are more trouble than they are worth, especially when used in yards or as crossovers.

since you are using anyrail to design your layout, try using the #5 switches, with the 12 degree 33.25r curve and you will get parallel tracks. and in real life, your trains will operate much better on them.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: show33 on February 15, 2014, 07:15:27 AM
Yes, the S curve has been an issue. Not too bad but certainly annoying. #5 switches are next of the shopping list.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: trainmainbrian on February 15, 2014, 09:24:47 AM
I org drew up designs for a 4x8 layout 2 years ago...... & figured I wanted to go BIG and build a layout that would see a lot of action with making up trains... switching in yard action... & switching in industries on sidings on the track.... Well to this day & 2 - 1/2 years later I have an L-Girder Bench work layout.... & is 16 feet long x 6 feet wide..... 52" inches high..... 2 track mainline... 3 track interchange... 9 track switching yard... I have 23 switches remotely controlled on my DCC controller... A NCE DCC system powers my layout.. all 7 of my loco's are DCC & sound equipped... I model all Diesel Era mid 70's to mid 90's  I was born in 75... I have pictures to post once I figure out how to get them posted on hear for everyone to take a look...
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Joe Satnik on February 15, 2014, 10:16:19 AM
Dear All,

Posting photos on the Bachmann Board is a 3 step process:

1.) Upload your picture to a photo hosting website, such as photobucket. 

2.) Copy/paste the link to that photo onto the Bachmann Board reply area. 

3.) Surround the link with image tags, like this, but without the spaces:

[ i m g ]http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz296/joebarb/036_zpsb47f7c5c.jpg[ / i m g ]

Taking away the spaces in the image tags produces this:

(http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz296/joebarb/036_zpsb47f7c5c.jpg)
Willaims Electric Trains 3-Rail-O Chessie System GP-38 Loco

Hope this helps. 

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Morgun 30 on February 15, 2014, 05:08:51 PM
Show33, Played around with your lay-out with #4 and 5 turn outs. Added a little something extra          
(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy318/bundy52722/show2_zps637701da.png) (http://s803.photobucket.com/user/bundy52722/media/show2_zps637701da.png.html)
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Morgun 30 on February 15, 2014, 06:43:15 PM
This one uses radius turnouts also. (don't know if that is ok or not. Maybe some more experienced RR'ers will comment) It is a little smaller and is not so close to the edge of the table

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy318/bundy52722/show3_zps88b8ad0e.png) (http://s803.photobucket.com/user/bundy52722/media/show3_zps88b8ad0e.png.html)

Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on February 15, 2014, 06:57:38 PM
morgun,
thanks for posting these. I haven't been able to use my anyrail since my laptop died, your layouts illustrate precisely my point about using 4s and 5s and eliminating s curves.

Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Morgun 30 on February 15, 2014, 07:59:22 PM
This one may be closer to your original design

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy318/bundy52722/show4_zps883dc4a9.png) (http://s803.photobucket.com/user/bundy52722/media/show4_zps883dc4a9.png.html)
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: show33 on February 15, 2014, 08:46:12 PM
Morgan 30 - thanks so much for taking the time to post those. That will really help when I upgrade to 4s and 5s.

...and getting to close to the edge of the board was an issue with my layout, this will, as you said, help that

Thanks again!
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Morgun 30 on February 15, 2014, 09:31:18 PM
My pleasure. This playing with anyrail can be addicting ;) 
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Joe Satnik on February 16, 2014, 01:49:01 AM
Track Layout-ologists,

Numbered turnouts don't necessarily eliminate "S" curves. 

Numbered turnouts still have closure rails that have a curvature to them. 

If the straight between opposing curves

(closure rails, curved diverting routes, return to parallel siding curves, etc.)

is shorter than your longest loco or car, you will have an "S" curve situation. 

Granted, longer radius curves and closure rails will give less of an "S" curve effect,

but it will still be there.   

Have you noticed that the 18"R "Remote" turnouts in Morgun's latest 2 designs

are configured in a way that has eliminated their "S" curves?

Scroll back and check it out.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik



 
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on February 16, 2014, 08:39:59 AM
Excellent work as always Professor!
Thank you.

Jeff what are you thinking for a new laptop?  Operating system, Windows 7 or 8?
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on February 16, 2014, 09:53:25 AM
I'm Scottish, no new laptop, just fix the one I have. power jack is messed up so i'll get that fixed, or buy a battery charger.

in the meantime, the only track planning  software I have is atlas rts10 on the wife's laptop. it is fine for my needs but can't do ez track layouts. atlas switches use a completely different geometry than ez track, and are much more compact.

Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on February 16, 2014, 10:02:35 AM
I am as well!  This is why I had mine worked on remotely from India, instead of replacing.  This is where "practical" comes into play for sure.  Perhaps we are from the same clan?
Can you remove the jack from the laptop and replace?
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Morgun 30 on February 16, 2014, 10:57:26 AM
Thinking that the grouping of three turn-outs in the upper right-hand corner might cause problems, I put the cross-over section in the bottom of the track. Points 1, 2, 3, and 4 do not fit perfectly, but the gap was close enough that it connected, and the next size piece was too large. Also, it appears to me that the size of area A would limit the amount of cars could be worked with in the yard. This would not necessarily be a bad thing as it would allow (require) more switching to move cars around. The changes to that area in the second track allow for more cars, but may not be as visually appealing.

(http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy318/bundy52722/show5_zpscc4ca6d0.png) (http://s803.photobucket.com/user/bundy52722/media/show5_zpscc4ca6d0.png.html)
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jbrock27 on February 16, 2014, 11:39:52 AM
Thank you for all of these Morg.  There is a fella I work with who has been trying to design a layout for he and his son to enjoy and he was having trouble with Anyrail.  I am going to refer him to these plans you have come up with.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: shafferroy on February 19, 2015, 10:46:51 PM
can the great northern pacific be built with larger turnouts and curve track?
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: jward on February 20, 2015, 10:49:23 PM
anything can be built with larger curves and switches if you are willing to redesign it and have the space. in the case of the gnp, there are 22r switches available but not as ez track. using those, it is relatively easy to replace all curves and switches with the 22r ones, and doing so will increase the size of the layout to about 5x10.

using the numbered switches, like #4 or #6, will be a little harder as they take up a lot more room, especially the ez track versions. in addition, the numbered switches are usually not the same degree of curvature as sectional curved track. you will probably have to use flexible track with numbered switches. or trim some sectional track curves to fit.
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Terry Toenges on January 17, 2017, 03:37:29 AM
I got here from reading the referenced posts on the Bubblehead Track Plan post. I see there are some comments about using 15" radius curves. Here is a video of my On30 Christmas train from this year and the curves are all 15" radius. No problem at all with the curves for my 2-6-0, flat car, and Jackson Sharp passenger car.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AahlQQXzZ_Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AahlQQXzZ_Y)
Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: Deland on February 10, 2017, 05:04:49 PM
This is a great thread. Almost everyone has a space limitation, and 4X8 and 5X9 track plans may be the answer. At issue is the idea of a 4X8 plan. It's stuck in the mind of many people and fits with the space they have. My thought is that development of this size plan and encouragement is paramount to getting new blood into the hobby. There are as many desires as there are people in the hobby and the main one is usually more room or more money. By creating space and budget friendly designs, we can help people who might not get into the hobby to join and have fun. That means more in the Hobby, and more people wanting (X) so more reason for manufacturers to make it. Not to get political but it's like Patriotism, what is good for the country may not be good for you, but supporting it makes a stronger country. The same is true, What is good for the Hobby ( a small layout) may not be good for you but may be good for the Hobby as a whole."

Title: Re: 4x8 track plans
Post by: BIG BEAR on February 18, 2017, 12:09:00 AM
Just for a quick reference:

Any rail Track Software:

https://www.anyrail.com/index_en.html

Bachmann EZ Track Books:
                          Amazon

https://www.amazon.com/Bachmann-Trains-Model-Railroads-Planning/dp/B000V1AX0A/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1487393852&sr=8-3&keywords=bachmann+track+book

                      OR E-bay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BACHMANN-99978-E-Z-MODEL-RAILROADS-THE-E-Z-TRACK-PLANNING-GUIDE-LAYOUT-BOOK-/112296384213?hash=item1a2562d6d5:g:j74AAOSwnGJWTAae

Also see this less complete but still very helpful EZ Track book: This is the original Book and there is a "Book II" from this same author.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bachmann-Model-Railroading-Made-E-Z-Book-with-Bachmanns-E-Z-Track-System-/252752914054?hash=item3ad93f6686:g:LVQAAOSwpLNX9GXu

Enjoy,
  Barry