In a thread on the HO board on 4-6-4 Hudson models, SteamGene wrote:
Quote from: SteamGene on September 17, 2007, 01:01:11 PM
Now why did C&O stick with Hudson and not call the 4-6-4 the Potomac, James, York, Shenandoah, or New River? (No, I don't have the answer.)
Gene
I find this an interesting question. C&O had its own names for the 4-8-4 and 2-8-4, thereby avoiding names with Yankee affiliation. But is that why? If so, why not the 4-6-4 too? Certainly, one can reasonably speculate that the C&O and others used a different name due to distaste for the association with the North: just abut every Southeastern road named the 4-8-4 something different from Northern (and from each other). But on the other hand the Southerners were hardly alone in finding their own names, particularly for the 4-8-4 but also other types.
Maybe "Hudson" had some local connection - a geographic feature, station, or junction along the line, or esteemed person or historical figure associated with the C&O - that outweighed the negative of the name from a Northern road?
I thought it odd that someone at C&O thought to reaname the Berkshire - especially considering the design is essentially the same as its van Swerigen sisters NKP and PM used - and NKP also a Southern road. But then, by the time C&O got the 2-8-4 the van Swerigens had gone bust. Ah, but maybe the same design is a clue - could it be a desire to call something their own, when wartime restrictions otherwise dictated reusing an existing design? (if that was so, I recall reading the PRR used a C&O design for new power during WW2 because of wartime restrictions on new design)
Scott, I'm not an expert on everything related to the C&O, but nothing along the C&O ROW that I know of is called "Hudson." The first C&O K4s - the 2-8-4, came out in 1943, and the Berkshire name was rejected as being Yankee. Despite the fact that the Northern designation came from either the Great Northern or the Northern Pacific, that, too was rejected.
Gene
This is just my guess, but I think its likely correct..
I think all railroads called the 4-6-4 "Hudson" because no one had yet considered they could give wheel arrangements different names! ;)
New York Central named the 4-6-4 wheel arrangement the "Hudson" in 1927, for the Hudson River, when they recieved the first American production 4-6-4's..
NYC "invented" the class, so they got to name it..(as was the custom going way back.)
At that time, 1927, all railroads still simply adopted the "given" name of a class:
4-4-0 American
2-6-0 Mogul
2-8-0 Consolidation
4-6-2 Pacific
4-6-4 Hudson
etc..
It wasnt really until the 1930's and 40's, and the developement of the 4-8-2, 2-8-4, and especially the very modern 4-8-4 wheel arrangements that railroads suddenly realized "hey..we can call these things anything we like!"
There are exceptions, but the main wheel arrangement of the "lets name it ourselves" movement was the 4-8-4 of the 1930's and 40's.
Northern Pacific had the first, so they named it the "Northern"..
Southern railroads in particular werent too happy with the name "Northern" so they just ignored it, and gave it their own name..
once the "unspoken rule" was broken, other railroads jumped on the bandwagon.
the following is from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-8-4
Canadian National Railway - Confederation
Central of Georgia Railroad - Big Apple
Chesapeake and Ohio Railway - Greenbrier
Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad - Pocono
Denver and Rio Grande Western Railroad - Western
Grand Trunk Western Railroad - Confederation
Lehigh Valley Railroad - Wyoming
Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis Railway - Dixie
Ferrocarriles Nacionales de Mexico - Niágara
New York Central Railroad - Niagara
Richmond, Fredericksburg and Potomac Railroad - General, Governor, Statesman (three different classes)
Southern Pacific Railroad - Golden State (or General Service)
Western Maryland Railway - Potomac
So that is why I think all 4-6-4's were "Hudsons" on all railroads..
its only because no railroad had thought to give them their own name yet!
it just "wasnt done" then..not at that time...the time for custom naming simply hadnt arrived yet.
Scot
Two problems here.
The first is that the 4-6-4 was a "Baltic" on the Milwaukee Road, dating back to the 1920s. In fact the Road designed the 4-6-4 before th NYC did, but didn't build it fast enough. In Europe the 4-6-4 is a Baltic, also.
The next is that the C&O didn't begin to buy or build their 4-6-4s until the 1940s, after renaming their 4-8-4s and 2-8-4s.
Gene
Quote from: SteamGene on September 18, 2007, 12:23:47 PM
Two problems here.
The first is that the 4-6-4 was a "Baltic" on the Milwaukee Road, dating back to the 1920s. In fact the Road designed the 4-6-4 before th NYC did, but didn't build it fast enough. In Europe the 4-6-4 is a Baltic, also.
The next is that the C&O didn't begin to buy or build their 4-6-4s until the 1940s, after renaming their 4-8-4s and 2-8-4s.
Gene
huh..ok then, I guess my theory is wrong! :P
darn..I thought it made such sense too!
alas..
Then perhaps the "custom naming" was mainly just a 4-8-4 phenonomon,
(and a few other wheel arrangemets, but mostly 4-8-4) only because of the Southern roads dislike for the name "Northern"..
so nearly every railroad deceided to give the 4-8-4 its own name..
but no one objected to "Hudson"..
yes, im just guessing again..no one seems to know the real answer!
Scot
Hi
The Canadian Pacific had some Hudson locomotives too. A special class was even called Royal Hudson.
Maybe a Yankee name was found acceptable.
Regards, Yukonsam
Shades of Hiendrik Hodson-and he wasn't even an American-just a little ol' Dutch explorer. Funny; every time I go over the Tappan Zee, I think of him and those ships, sailing up that estuarial section of that river and thinking about what to name it: " Hmmmmm; how about das Holland River? Nope; dey already got named a tunnel after home. Vell, how aboot the Empire river? Nein! already a big building named for after it. Vell, how about Heindry';s river? (from the crew) Aww, c'mon, Hank; enough already. Let's just named das locomotive after you, and call it das day" "Jah...goot idea!! oond den ve also can buy manhatten... dat's vot ttose people here call it...So how much money ve got? Tventy four? Goot! Ve got das deal! Got en Himmel"
Rich
So tell me...Do any of youse remember a cartoonist named R. Dirks?...
Quote from: SteamGene on September 18, 2007, 08:34:54 AM
Scott, I'm not an expert on everything related to the C&O, but nothing along the C&O ROW that I know of is called "Hudson." The first C&O K4s - the 2-8-4, came out in 1943, and the Berkshire name was rejected as being Yankee. Despite the fact that the Northern designation came from either the Great Northern or the Northern Pacific, that, too was rejected.
Gene
How come the C&O hated the yankees so much? ??? With all this new info I am kinda glad I switched eras & locations. (Yes, I have I just haven't said anything till now. I still like steam though. Athearn 844 & Challenger Here I come!!!!)
Well, don't forget that the C&O was headquartered in Richmond, the capital of the Confederacy, back in those days. There were even still a couple of Civil War veterans alive back in the 30's and 40's, and old memories die hard. My guess (subject to revision by any C&OHS members out there) is that the initial C&O Hudsons were introduced during WWII, and folks weren't paying as much attention to loco nicknames at that time. Once the moniker stuck, the post-war Chessie locos just carried on the name.
In the post starting this topic I neglected to ask:
Does anyone have or know of a contemporary account supporting the notion that C&O used alternate names for 4-8-4 and 2-8-4 due to the established names' "Yankee" association?
All I recall seeing so far are unsupported* assertions such as Gene's "Berkshire name was rejected as being Yankee" from a post in this thread, and the following from SteamLocomotive.com, regarding NKP 4-8-4's: "they called "Dixies" (instead of "Northerns" - a name that would seem inappropriate on a fine southern railroad)".
Regarding the idea that the 4-8-4 broke the tradition of using the name established by the originating Road, there is at least one other instance besides Milwaukee's Baltic for an earlier type: the NYC called their 4-8-2's "Mohawk"; the description on Steamlocomotive.com suggests this decision was made in 1916, after the first sample but before the arrival of the first order of 30 that year.
*I am not criticizing, and Steamlocomotive.com does provide a list of references and places to go for more information.
The Nickle Plate did not own any 4-8-4s. Wasn't the Dixie name used by the Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis for their 4-8-4s.
Tom M
Quote from: Elmore Yard on September 19, 2007, 02:40:17 PM
The Nickle Plate did not own any 4-8-4s. Wasn't the Dixie name used by the Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis for their 4-8-4s.
Right you are, Tom. I meant the NC&StL. I guess I confuse the two, both named for 3 cities, the last of which is St. Louis. Plus I was already primed to think of NKP, in relation to the Berkshire type and its sister (for a while) road C&O.
Thanks,
Scott
At least according to Wikpedia the first 4-6-4 tender locos in the world were French, built in 1911. They were used on Paris - St Petersburg expresses, hence the name "Baltic". There were however earlier 4-6-4 tank locos, including in New Zealand (1902).
Hamish
Scott,
Do you want an Ibid or an Op. cit? The rejection of "Berkshire" by the C&O came from at least one book about the C&O which I can't find just this minute.
If you want, I will contact the C&OHS for verification.
As noted by at least one other, the South has a long memory. "...old times there are not forgotten..." :D
Gene
Quote from: SteamGene on September 19, 2007, 09:52:09 PM
As noted by at least one other, the South has a long memory. "...old times there are not forgotten..." :D
Gene
Amen, Gene, Amen! ;D
Didn't the RF&P call their 4-8-4's, General and Governor class locos based on class numbers????
Quote from: SteamGene on September 19, 2007, 09:52:09 PM
Scott,
Do you want an Ibid or an Op. cit?
:)
Quote from: SteamGene on September 19, 2007, 09:52:09 PM
The rejection of "Berkshire" by the C&O came from at least one book about the C&O which I can't find just this minute.
If you want, I will contact the C&OHS for verification.
As noted by at least one other, the South has a long memory. "...old times there are not forgotten..." :D
Gene -
No hurry. I hope when you run across a good quote, you will recall my curiosity and send me info about it- through this forum or off-line.
Thanks.
Quote from: ebtnut on September 19, 2007, 01:00:53 PM
My guess (subject to revision by any C&OHS members out there) is that the initial C&O Hudsons were introduced during WWII, and folks weren't paying as much attention to loco nicknames at that time. Once the moniker stuck, the post-war Chessie locos just carried on the name.
Nice try, but the 2-8-4s were also introduced during the Second World War - actually arriving after the first Hudsons.
I have submitted my question to the C&OHS.
Scott.