I've been thinking about what might be coming out next. It seems to me that a lot models are being discontinued or not listed in the online catalog: Rail truck, Davenport, K-27, side dump gondola, EBT hopper, flat car to name the recent. The older models that come to mind are the connie and 45 ton diesel. The models I mentioned all seem like they were well received a and the fact they are sold out says something.
Tooling seems like the major investment, why stop producing? Is producing models in 1:20.3 scale for a limited time a marketing strategy? Once dies are made and paid for, it seems like the profit margin should increase.
I hope to see some new releases in 1:20.3 scale from July's NMRA convention. I'd love to see some passenger equipment.
Thoughts..... Wishes.......
Patrick,
While what you say is basically true, there still needs to be enough buyers at a cost effective price point to make even a small production run profitable. There is also the issue of some redesign to eliminate problems or lessons learned during the initial production run. Lets say that the product sells for $700 and the margin is $420 and costs are $340 including shipping from China and US distribution and salary costs, operation of repair service, cost of catalogs etc. This would equate to $80 profit per item or $40000 for the run assuming there were buyers, and few problems with the product.
In my own mind, it seems that buyers are getting harder to find. Our hobby seems to be failing to bring in new younger buyers, and many of the younger folks in our hobby are leaning toward those doggone diesels and 1/29th size products. The hobby also seems to be flooded with used products at very low prices. There are currently over 12500 G Scale items on Evil bay some new some used. Bachmann Trains sets sell from $50 to about $130, some new in box. Rolling stock can be had for $30 or less with steel wheels even. Other Brands have a similar problem. The market is still glutted with other brands products as well. Just got a nice covered hopper for $42.50, one that in the past would have sold for $110. It was in near perfect condition and the right price for me since I wanted to repaint it.
1:20.3 is a very small niche product line compared to other scales in Large Scale.
Even in my own case I am about bought out. I have seven projects on my to do list and have all the parts, RC and Sound stuff to put in them. Over the years I have bought mostly rolling stock and locomotives I will probably never use. My shelves are full and my buying is slowing down.
As the middle class struggles, sales of RR hobby items will most likely continue to lag. Many without space buy R/C aircraft and autos which require no tracks or extensive investment in buildings, sound systems, figures, and the maintenance required especially in operating an outdoor layout.
All of the above is speculation on my part, but talking to others I feel is is at least somewhat near to the condition of the hobby as things stand today.
I remain hopeful for the future, but.....................
Bill
.....and add to that, dies wear out and need to be replaced. There is a tipping point where the market will not support the investment in new tooling. Otherwise I think Bill pretty much hit the nail squarely on the head.
Bob C.
Quote from: Loco Bill Canelos on April 28, 2014, 10:43:54 AM
Many without space buy R/C aircraft and autos which require no tracks or extensive investment in buildings, sound systems, figures, and the maintenance required especially in operating an outdoor layout.
True, all they need do is to totally replace the tangled wreckage every time one of these expensive toys falls to that nice hard ground that they get for free. That's the great thing about r/c trains - when the batteries go futz, the loco and train doesn't hit the ground at a hundred miles an hour.
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
All good points. I must say that narrow guage has always been a niche. In garden size
trains somewhat tighter curves due to space makes it attractive. I think that was
the inital reasoning of a certain Geman company.
I started with the usual starter, added a few more cars, decided to take a look at 1:29,
but a bi- level car on 11ft radius still looks tight.
Went back to Fn3 and started all over pretty much. This time ther than one electric
outline went live steam. Not denigrate Bachmann's fine products, but watching aShay or
Mikado in clouds of steam on a cool day....just is lovely.
Most of the few bits of rolling stock are all brass because the weight going over the track
joints has that wnderful clickity sound.
So maybe call it for me a maturing of the hobby.
Bachmann continues to produce fine locomotives. It seems like each new one is better than the last. Why stop producing rolling stock to go behind it? I can't imagine molds are worn out already.
Judging by Garden Railways magazine it seems like 1:20th scale has a good following and is a quite popular garden scale.
I started this thread so we could speculate what might be released next and to give Bachmann some feedback to what we want.
Patrick you mentioned one engine the 45 ton diesel. That was sold out because Backmann dumped them cheap because they did not sell I bought one when they first came out for $200 several years latter I got 2 more for $60 each So being sold out does not mean it was a good seller.
I know they didn't sell well but wish I would of picked a couple up. Would of been great kitbashing projects.
The 45 tonner was a great loco except for the springs that carried power to the trucks. All to often the spring would fry during a short caused by a derailment. I hardwired mine avoiding the spring system of transferring power. When hardwired or battery powered they run like a sewing machine and pull great.
I did have the good fortune to get a couple of these. I converted one to a box cab and battery and sound. It is one of my best runners. I used a Soundtrax Sierra Alco sound board and it is perfect for the loco.
Here is a picture of the conversion. I lowered the frame, built a new shell out of styrene sheets, reused the grills and doors and horns, made roof details and such. All in all it was a fun project. It is the only Diesel I use on my indoor 1905 to 1945 era layout. I use it outdoors as well on my 1945 to 1965 era layout.
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh291/sharronbillc/Boxcab/Boxcab100.jpg) (http://s259.photobucket.com/user/sharronbillc/media/Boxcab/Boxcab100.jpg.html)
This view shows the end doors:
(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh291/sharronbillc/Boxcab/DSCN8776Medium.jpg) (http://s259.photobucket.com/user/sharronbillc/media/Boxcab/DSCN8776Medium.jpg.html)
Having fun for sure!
Bill
My only "gripe" with the center cab was that it was just too darned big! Yes, it was prototypical, but we tend to be a hobby driven by a sense of aesthetics that doesn't necessarily exist in the prototype world. I cut mine down considerably to bring it more in line with the Whitcomb and Plymouth center cabs that were built specifically for narrow gauge locos.
(http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/eastbroadtop/TTM1/TTM101.jpg)
I still need to get some pics of it out on the railroad, but it no longer dwarfs my rolling stock--a far better aesthetic to my eyes.
As for the future, I would expect that we're going to see locomotives come out once every few years, especially if they're as complex as we've seen lately. These take time to develop and get right. If all future offerings are as good as the C-19, I think they'll be worth the wait.
As for rolling stock, I really don't have a feel for what's available and what's not, as I don't buy all that much rolling stock lately. The stuff takes up space! LOTS of space! I tried an experiment the other day to see if I could take two locomotives and 10 cars to a train show. My wagon looked like something out of the Beverly Hillbillies! I'd love to run a 15-car hopper car train behind my EBT mikado, but there's no way I could transport 15 hopper cars anywhere, let alone find room to store them here.
I would love to see some more EBT steel rolling stock produced commercially. I think their steel box car would do well, or their steel flat car. Maybe a ET&WNC wood hopper? At this point in my buying, I think if I'm going to be enticed to buy another piece of rolling stock, it would have to be something new. I've got all the "old" stuff I want at the moment. I really don't need another wood box car or flat car. (I did pick up a tank car the other day. Didn't need one of those, either, but the price was great.)
Later,
K
You have to love that locomotive as it just called out for bashing. I went along with Bill and did my own version. It was so much fun building and it pulls better than most of mine.
(http://jbrr.com/gallery/IMG_2002.jpg)
(http://jbrr.com/gallery/IMG_0726.jpg)
Bill, Kevin and Bruce,
All very inspiring models! Kudos to your visions and completing them to fruition. I kick myself for not buying one when they were on closeout but am continuing to look on Ebay.
I think I would do a conversion similar to Kevin's. This makes me question why Bachmann didn't produce a center cab diesel that was modeled after what the EBT and D&SNG operate instead of the generic standard gauge/narrow gauge version. Making a similar model in On30 and HO may have something to do with it. I Kader has a relationship with Blackstone/Soundtrax and often the Bachmann 1:20th releases seem to coincide with what Blackstone is releasing. Blackstone is currently working on K-28s and K-36s which I think is smart because lots of people have seen these operating in person and ridden behind them. I don't think Bachmann needs any bigger locos, per recent posts, people still consider the Connie there favorite.
Any announcements yet from the NMRA convention?
Personally I would not mind seeing a rerun of the K-27 but with an updated drive train like the C-19 complete with the fan and speaker ready in the tender. These are still very popular locomotives. As far as something really new, I just do not see it in 1:20.3.
I think the cars were great but there is a finite limit of how many you can sell before saturation and against another company which also seems to have not remade certain items (like stock and refrigerator cars).
The German company has been primarily and now almost all European meter gauge but then the lines there are still extent and or lasted longer. Narrow gauge in America was probably put paid by the beginning of the twentieth century as being viable and dwindled down from there.
I note that a certain high end manufacturer of live steam and brass models (starts with an A), has very few new 1:20.3 projects on its list. A 28t Shay, a Heisler and a Class 70 Consolidation. As far as rolling stock in 1:20.3 nothing new.
However, this same company is now making a lot more 1:32 items in live steam and moving into 1:29. The later offerings are as I see it filling the niches that other 1:29 manufacturers have not hit. I am sure Bachmann in its large scale has to look at what is selling and what not and it is possible that 1:20.3 has pretty much as others stated saturated out.
Now given that Bachmann did quite successfully move into a niche in the start of primarily logging prototypes with the Peter Witt, I can not but hope that perhaps a small niche of traction models might be made. Probably not, but a good steeple cab and or box cab motor would probably find many homes.
The convention starts on JUly 18th, but I am not sure when announcements will be made.
Certainly by Monday there will be some sort of NMRA announcement. Personally up to a couple years ago I would have loved to see a Boxcab based on GE's little 20 tonner, but I got to where I stopped expecting anything I liked to be produced so I did my own:
(http://gold.mylargescale.com/vsmith/Bobbercab%2015.JPG)
Now quite honestly I dunno what to expect given how flat the market is and how glutted the uses market still is. I think I am one to the few people who really enjoy bashing the Lil Hauler stuff, Now I don't know what the future of that is either.
(http://gold.mylargescale.com/vsmith/LBH%20Railbus%2003.JPG)
(http://gold.mylargescale.com/vsmith/LBH%20Saddletanker%2011.JPG)
(http://gold.mylargescale.com/vsmith/LBH%20Loco%20Bee%20Bash%20pic%2005.JPG)
I would still love to see something like this though in LS:
(http://gold.mylargescale.com/vsmith/xokdrg.jpg)
;)
Uplifting discussions such as this are going to do little to attract new narrow gauge modelers. Why would anyone enter a field where its members are predicting its rapid demise? If you are a manufacture of models why would you manufacture new ones if members talk of leaving the field...Or if just having entered the field, these conversations certainly would encourage a reevaluation of one's choice to the hobby. i certainly have been enjoying the hobby for several years (though by means of an indoor layout) and hope to see new additions....of course i enjoy rainbows too.
Bob,
I dunno, I don't think there will ever be a demise, just a slow down in new stuff. I think Narrow gauge modelers are a breed of their own 8). Once the bug bites there is no going back ;D. They will never be dissuaded and willl go to any expense :o and length to get what they want, and if it is not made they try to kitbash something to what they want :-*.
Bill
Quote from: bob kaplan on July 17, 2014, 10:28:28 AM
Uplifting discussions such as this are going to do little to attract new narrow gauge modelers. Why would anyone enter a field where its members are predicting its rapid demise? If you are a manufacture of models why would you manufacture new ones if members talk of leaving the field...Or if just having entered the field, these conversations certainly would encourage a reevaluation of one's choice to the hobby. i certainly have been enjoying the hobby for several years (though by means of an indoor layout) and hope to see new additions....of course i enjoy rainbows too.
No demise, slow down yes, but then large scale expanded rapidly in the mid 00's, probably way too rapidly, as such we are still dealing with the combined effects of that over production and a decreased buying pool due to alot of LSr's who dropped out during the recession and haven't come back. As a result alot of used stuff has been dumped on the market. Now add in the idiots on Ebay who think a clapped out broken missing parts Lionel 0-6-0 cheesemaster is still worth $100 BIN just because its "large scale" and multiply that idiot buy a 100x, all asking over the moon for stuff that when you watch the rare auction for and see what it actually sells for (real worth vs perceived worth) its selling for 25-50% of the loony BIN prices. You begin to see why LS (and 1/20.3) is in a bit of a rut.
But there IS expansion going on, Accucrafts new GP60 is expected to sell well, the C-19 was a hit, I think most of the K-27s also sold really well, so there IS market out there. Its just we are NEVER going to see high volume/low price stuff like we did with in the 00's again, the market is just too small, so what does get produced will be smaller runs, higher priced, and more likely to sell out given the smaller runs. Its just finding what will sell in a harder market like today. I hope to see another smaller loco like the C-16 or what I would kill to have would be one of these:
(http://www.mexlist.com/penoles/photo17.jpg)
or even one of these:
(http://www.railmasterhobbies.com/images%20Sn3/C48's%20early.jpg)
We'll see ;)
The Bachmann has spoken :
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,28025.0.html
The Mogul is nice, but worthless for me on my tiny layout. Meh! :-\
WHY IS THERE SUCH AS SHORTAGE OF THE BACHMANN G SCALE FORNEY?...IT TOOK ME FOEVER TO GET ONE.
Hi Vic:
Lionel made an 0-6-0 and another loco with the rear fuel bin which you could bash together to build the DRGW tank loco. Just need to fabricate the water tank over the steam boiler.
Norman
Lionel made an 0-6-0, but they're of very dubious running quality. That, and far too small for a proper model of that loco in 1:20.3.
Later
K
Quote from: mikeC on July 18, 2014, 10:21:46 PM
WHY IS THERE SUCH AS SHORTAGE OF THE BACHMANN G SCALE FORNEY?...IT TOOK ME FOEVER TO GET ONE.
Hey, come over to UK - no shortage of 'em here, although the $1100.00 price tag might put you off. ;)
Guess that's why very few folks over here have bought one - savin' 'em, y'see, for you guys over there where they are cheap.
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
Quote from: norman on July 19, 2014, 03:26:57 PM
Hi Vic:
Lionel made an 0-6-0 and another loco with the rear fuel bin which you could bash together to build the DRGW tank loco. Just need to fabricate the water tank over the steam boiler.
Norman
I was considering the Indy as a base structure for a bash.
From my experience as a model railroader the urges come and go. But it never takes much to bit you back in to a strong urge to play trains for a few years. One thing that 1:20.3 allows is the great size to scratch build. But more verity on parts for the scale would be nice like more trucks, hand rails, steps, lights, brake stands, underframe detail parts, loco domes, cab detail, passenger car decorations and so much more that can make it interesting for scratch builders. It's a trend In the whole hobby of trains that more and more products are ready to roll. No MORE KITS :'( or very few kits at all. I don't really see this scale every dead just slumbering for years. The younger generations need to learn to enjoy more then Technology. If you have kids have them build some trains instead of the screen. It helps there minds instead of drains there brain and the couch.
i would like to see the k27 with inside cylinders,,, it would be different enough to justify a purchase
and tooling is mostly done,,
c19 early versions,,,, again tooling mostly done
also the box cars which the colorado and southern, RGS and white pass used
that would satisfy people who model one of three lines
but a coach which is different from the jackson sharp offering by accucraft would be great
ie duckbill roof, round window tops etc
Davey:
What do you mean a "K27 with inside cylinders"? Do you mean a regular non-D&RGW narrow gauge mikado like used on the East Broad Top? A K-27, 28, 36, and 37 are very specific to the Rio Grande. They all had outside frames.
Chuck
K-27 with Vauclain cylinders would be an interesting variant.
A K27 is a very specific locomotive. It is not a generic term. You can do anything you want to with a Mikado, but it won't be a K-27.
Chuck
There are actually three variants of K27 used on the D&RQW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%26RGW_K-27 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%26RGW_K-27)
The 463 and 464 are examples of piston valves outboard of cylinders. This is the model Bachmann produced
The 456 and 458 are examples of piston valves inboard of cylinders
The 457 and 460 are examples of slide valve cylinders which were the way the K27s were shipped from Baldwin.
The Tenders for the slide valve cylinders were slope back so there would be more mold work to do to produce. The inboard cylinder versions would only require a few different parts and would be relatively easy to produce.
Hopefully in time the Large Scale market can improve and Bachmann will decide to produce the K27 inside cylinder versions.
Stan
Thanks Stan, I stand corrected.
Chuck
Me, I'd really like for Bachmann to produce the White Pass Mike #73. I'm convinced it would sell like ice-creams at Coney Island on Independence Day.
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
Unfortunately tac, nothing sells like ice creams at Coney Island on Independence Day in Large Scale these days....especially big expensive steam locomotives!
Quote from: Yardmaster on August 03, 2014, 04:21:40 PM
Unfortunately tac, nothing sells like ice creams at Coney Island on Independence Day in Large Scale these days....especially big expensive steam locomotives!
Sir I beg to differ - two makers of Gauge 1 live steam have produced, or are in the process of producing -
The Allegheny
The N&W #611
The UP FEF
The CPR Selkirk
The 'cheapest' of these models is around $7000 - the most expensive way north of $10K.
tac
Tac,
If only they could sell even 2 % of the steamers as they sell Ice Cream Cones at coney Island!! ::) ;D
Cheers & Beers.
Bill
Tac, note that those are very limited production, hand-built locos, with production runs often in the 25 - 100 range. I had to wait 4 years for Accucraft to generate even 20 orders for the EBT mikado before they finally decided to produce it. (That was a "mere" $3K loco--and the only one in that price range I'm gonna be buying for a l-o-n-g time.)
While I lament the lack of "new" product with this most recent announcement, I can certainly understand the costs involved and Bachmann's reluctance to launch the "next thing" if they've still got models from the last one sitting on warehouse shelves.
Later,
K
Quote from: Kevin Strong on August 04, 2014, 10:32:45 AM
Tac, note that those are very limited production, hand-built locos, with production runs often in the 25 - 100 range. I had to wait 4 years for Accucraft to generate even 20 orders for the EBT mikado before they finally decided to produce it. (That was a "mere" $3K loco--and the only one in that price range I'm gonna be buying for a l-o-n-g time.)
While I lament the lack of "new" product with this most recent announcement, I can certainly understand the costs involved and Bachmann's reluctance to launch the "next thing" if they've still got models from the last one sitting on warehouse shelves.
Later,
K
I'd like to say that I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I'm sorry to say that I don't. Over a million passengers paid HUGE fares last year to ride the WP&YR. IMO a great marketing opportunity has been overlooked by both AccuCraft AND Bachmann here. A simple pad stamp change of lettering for those lovely passenger cars would seal the deal, IMO.
Here in poverty-stricken UK I personally know five people - who have wives, although that doesn't count on this occasion - who are both Fn3 modellers and WP&YR fans, having 'ridden the rails'. As one of them told me last year when we were admiring your EBT loco on YT, he'd never heard of the line, simply because cruise ships don't go there, but wouldn't it be great if AccuCraft had made the #73 instead? He had seriously considered buying a #12 to convert it to look like #73.
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
It's easy to speculate when you don't have to pay for the tooling...
Quote from: Yardmaster on August 04, 2014, 01:27:10 PM
It's easy to speculate when you don't have to pay for the tooling...
This has always been the case, Sir. We don't disagree about that, but on the other hand, we don't need our noses rubbed in the fact that these things cost money.
These days that is clearly understood by anybody who has more than a double-figure brain-cell count.
A friend of mine, in a different line of business, has a full-length mirror facing you as as you walk into his store.
Over the top is a sign, it reads - 'You are now looking at the most important person in this store'.
Those companies who make products that nobody wants will find it out the hard way. Clearly Bachmann is not one such company.
All I was doing is what many others have done on this forum before me, and made, in MY case, a wish for a single locomotive to be modelled, and what happens?
I get treated like a a bad smell.
That's not a good way to treat a customer with literally thousands of dollars [converted into pounds] spent on your products.
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
Sorry. Not trying to treat you poorly. Just pointing out the obvious. Large Scale is in a bit of a slump at the moment and it would not be prudent to spend money on tooling that probably wouldn't sell well enough to pay for itself. I understand that you believe this to be a good idea - under better circumstances I might agree but not at this particular time.
Over a million passengers on the WP&Y?
http://www.travelperch.ca/cruise-travel/alaskas-spectacular-white-pass-yukon-route-railway/ makes it 450,000, which is still a hell of a lot.
If we thought we could sell 10,000 we would do it in a heartbeat.
Thank you Yardmaster, you have provided a wonderful guide to the production run required to make a break even. I had often thought it would be in that range in order to maintain a price point the customer - me - can afford. Thank you for producing such wonderful product at the price point the average individual can afford.
TAC and Skarloey - Numbers of riders on the WP&YR has no real bearing on those that will purchase product, regardless of price. I have a local friend who loves to ride steam trains, regardless of origin or gauge. So long as it is steam. He has absolutely zero interest in purchasing any 'toy trains'. I am pleasantly amazed at the numbers of riders on WP&YR, and as Skarloey stated, near a half million is an impressive number. Judging by the MSRP of the last couple of offerings, I am quite sure the price point for any new locomotives, especially one that may not be able to 're-purpose' any existing molds or mechanisms will most likely be around double what I paid for my K27. That is out of my price range.
I agree with Bachmann on the point of the market not being there to support that kind of investment. My wife is a tax professional, and her observation is that the economy (regardless of the smoke and mirrors our government is playing with) is at best stagnant. Most of her repeat clients (individuals) have lost significant income and therefore spending power. Sorry, but Whopper flopper, and convenience market clerks and somewhere near minimum wage are not going to be purchasing 1K and up hobby items (didn't want to call them toys). Maybe yUK has meaningful employment that pays a living wage to the masses, but that is not the case here, regardless of what CNN tells ya.
TAC, my home owners insurance has increased over 500% in the 14 years I am in my home. My wages have not even doubled (oh I could dream :) ). That is just one item. I economically we have been losing ground for the last 20 years. And when our government PROMOTES moving industry offshore, I really hope it doesn't take Einstein to do that math.
I could go on, but I will get off my soapbox now and let everyone go back to their regularly feisty conversaton.
Bob C.
Quote from: Yardmaster on August 04, 2014, 02:34:22 PM
Sorry. Not trying to treat you poorly. Just pointing out the obvious. Large Scale is in a bit of a slump at the moment and it would not be prudent to spend money on tooling that probably wouldn't sell well enough to pay for itself. I understand that you believe this to be a good idea - under better circumstances I might agree but not at this particular time.
'kay.
I accept that.
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
Yardmaster & Bachmann,
Would you consider doing a K27 with inboard cylinders?? This would not be as costly as a complete loco, yet it would give you a new product to bring to market with 10 to 15% mold cost assuming you can use the original molds from the K27 I would be interested in at least one with inboard cylinders to go with #455 RGS.
Chuck
Anything is possible but there are no plans to do so at the moment. We will keep it in mind when we discuss rerunning the K-27.
Quote from: Chuck N on August 02, 2014, 05:17:12 PM
Davey:
What do you mean a "K27 with inside cylinders"? Do you mean a regular non-D&RGW narrow gauge mikado like used on the East Broad Top? A K-27, 28, 36, and 37 are very specific to the Rio Grande. They all had outside frames.
Chuck
chuck,,,, as previously mentioned i think a k27 with inward canted cylinders would be great for the next run of
the big mikado,,, as tooling is almost done,,,
i dont think so many people would buy the early versions but it may be worth doing a limited run for collectors
but another early bogie coach that looks different to accucrafts jackson sharp would be most welcome
slightly shorter, with duckbill roof and round windows,,,,
Davey B,
If you dig around in the 'Master Class' section on the My Large Scale forum (www.mylargescale.com) you will find an entire article on building what you are looking for. Some of the parts are supposed to be still available from Bronson Tate.
Bob C.
If I recall the most recent discussion on this correctly, Bronson Tate does not have the "Masterclass" passenger car kits for sale anymore. No one does. However, the plans are available for download. All you need to do is find someone with a laser cutter and give them the files to use. There's no charge for the drawings, so long as you don't use them for commercial purposes. (i.e., don't go making kits to sell.)
I would agree that some early board-and-batten coaches with rounded windows would be a great addition to the large scale line--especially given that they'd be of the same vintage as the 4-4-0/2-6-0.
Later,
K
Quote from: Kevin Strong on August 10, 2014, 01:32:17 AM
If I recall the most recent discussion on this correctly, Bronson Tate does not have the "Masterclass" passenger car kits for sale anymore. No one does. However, the plans are available for download. All you need to do is find someone with a laser cutter and give them the files to use. There's no charge for the drawings, so long as you don't use them for commercial purposes. (i.e., don't go making kits to sell.)
I would agree that some early board-and-batten coaches with rounded windows would be a great addition to the large scale line--especially given that they'd be of the same vintage as the 4-4-0/2-6-0.
Later,
K
With some careful bending you could build them with the prototypical 'sway-back' that so many of them have now... ;D
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
Quote from: StanAmes on August 02, 2014, 08:41:12 PM
There are actually three variants of K27 used on the D&RQW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%26RGW_K-27 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%26RGW_K-27)
The 463 and 464 are examples of piston valves outboard of cylinders. This is the model Bachmann produced
The 456 and 458 are examples of piston valves inboard of cylinders
The 457 and 460 are examples of slide valve cylinders which were the way the K27s were shipped from Baldwin.
The Tenders for the slide valve cylinders were slope back so there would be more mold work to do to produce. The inboard cylinder versions would only require a few different
parts and would be relatively easy to produce.
Hopefully in time the Large Scale market can improve and Bachmann will decide to produce the K27 inside cylinder versions.
Stan
I beg to differ. The K-27s or as known Class 125s when delivered were all Vauclain compounds. Thus actually four different versions.
For a more limited run builder like Accucraft #73 makes sense. For a mass producer like Bachmann I am not so sure. I have watched each run of locomotive and it seems to take quite a few years before they are sold out.
Even Accucrafts EBT took quite a bit of time in the LS edition to sell out (though admittedly a lot more expensive).
Now I will agree that a different style of Fn3 passenger car might work. I also think that a k-27 rerun with updated electronics and slower gearing ala the C-19 would be a decent success.
I could be wrong and there is more of market for a stock Baldwin inside frame mike.
I would really like to see re-runs of the Heisler locomotives. They were good engines with some electrical quirks, and the drive shaft didn't rotate well without modification, but overall it had metal trucks, a metal drive line and was pretty much well ahead of its time. It wouldn't need too much retooling, just a better drive shaft, and even more DCC ready with cooling fan and the electrical upgrades the Climax had. It would sell pretty well for the Large Scale recession we're in, and a lot of my fellow model railroad club members, want to see Heisler re-runs. So, Heisler re-runs should be a must. Not much re-tooling, just drive shaft and electrical upgrades and maybe different road names. :)
Quote from: Chris9017 on August 12, 2014, 11:32:15 PM
I would really like to see re-runs of the Heisler locomotives. They were good engines with some electrical quirks, and the drive shaft didn't rotate well without modification, but overall it had metal trucks, a metal drive line and was pretty much well ahead of its time. It wouldn't need too much retooling, just a better drive shaft, and even more DCC ready with cooling fan and the electrical upgrades the Climax had. It would sell pretty well for the Large Scale recession we're in, and a lot of my fellow model railroad club members, want to see Heisler re-runs. So, Heisler re-runs should be a must. Not much re-tooling, just drive shaft and electrical upgrades and maybe different road names. :)
I agree with you 100%. My Heisler, to whch I've made a couple of little 'fix-it' mods to make it run smoother, is always a centre of attraction at any of our open days - but then, ANY geared loco here in yUK is a novelty, and I'm lucky enough to have all of them made by Bachmann, including three Shays [2 x 2-truck and 1 x 3 truck]. I've lettered mine to reflect our support of the Pacific Coast Scenic Railroad in Oregon.
I lucked in to my Heisler at a train show a couple of years back, and swapped out the coal for an oil bunker to make it more prototyical, even though it's a three-footer, and not standard gauge like the Oregn loco.
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
Dear Mr. Yardmaster:
The Baldwin locomotive currently at Disneyland ( Ward Kimball no. 5 ) could be modeled with components of the former 1:22.5 2-4-2 re released as a 1:20.3 2-6-0 loco.
A 1:22.5 version of the Baldwin Disneyland ( Ward Kimball no. 5 ) lettered for a non Disney railroad would sell well. Place the 1:20.3 headlamps and market the model as 1:20.3 which will then serve the two markets as the 1:22.5 group can simply replace the large 1:20.3 headlamp.
Producing locos which can handle the R1 curves may restart the large scale sales.
Hoping for a 1:22.5 version of the Baldwin Disneyland ( Ward Kimball no. 5 ,
Norman
Disney locos require licensing... no plans to do this at the moment.
Dear Mr. Yardmaster:
This is not a Disneyland locomotive. This is a Baldwin locomotive. This is only a Disneyland locomotive if you apply Disneyland logos. Minimal investment for Bachmann to produce something really nice.
My belief is that your move to 1:20.3 scale torpedoed largescale.
1:22.5 ( actually 1:24 with the LGB rolling stock, USA Trains narrow gauge and HLW product ) was an excellent product size for both interior and outdoor layouts.
It is of course your financial investment at to what scale you chose to produce your locomotive molds in. But I really think you folks blew it. Never the less, I have purchased many 4-4-0 locos as the model could still be used with your 1:24 scale J&S coaches ( if one does not look at historical photos to view the correct size relationship as the J&S coaches dwarfed the 4-4-0 loco )
Ok so fine, I will bash my own Baldwin Disneyland type #5 loco which is of course what the hobby is supposed to be about.
Do not misunderstand, I really appreciate what Bachmann has offered in the past. I just deeply regret Bachmann having moved away from 1:24 scale as the 1:20.3 rolling stock and the other 1:20.3 locomotives are simply too large for my uses. The 1:20.3 diesel did not sell simply because it was far too large for even the 1:20.3 scale total converts.
LGB had the correct product concept using R1 curves. Bachmann should have followed the wisdom of the LGB train founders.
Norman
Misread your first post. This sounds like an easy bash so you are headed in the right direction. Speaking of bashing there is no need to get snarky. We still produce the Big Hauler line of Large scale products that mimic LGB pseudo scale. The reason we are not producing more Large Scale items at the moment is due to the current slump in said market. LGBs financial problems and subsequent bankruptcy probably had a much bigger effect on the Large Scale market than Bachmann diversifying it's Large Scale product line.
Quote from: norman on August 17, 2014, 07:25:16 PM
My belief is that your move to 1:20.3 scale torpedoed largescale.
1:22.5 ( actually 1:24 with the LGB rolling stock, USA Trains narrow gauge and HLW product ) was an excellent product size for both interior and outdoor layouts.
If this were true, where are the companies producing these ". . . excellent products . . ." today? And by the way, LGB was definitely Not to Any Scale, 1:22.5, 1:24, 1:26, or otherwise, with their offerings ranging from near to 1:20, to something in the neighborhood of 1:29. Very well made toys, but most of their offerings were not and are not of much interest to scale modelers. OTH, toy train operators generally do not care about scale, so a Bachmann 1:20 offering should easily find a home with them.
Quote from: norman on August 17, 2014, 07:25:16 PM
<snip> I just deeply regret Bachmann having moved away from 1:24 scale as the 1:20.3 rolling stock and the other 1:20.3 locomotives are simply too large for my uses. The 1:20.3 diesel did not sell simply because it was far too large for even the 1:20.3 scale total converts.
I am a life-long model railroader & general train enthusiast. I only started purchasing LS items in quantity when the highly accurate Bachmann 1:20 scale Shay was produced. I have lots of Bachmann 1:20 scale stuff, including several 45 tonners, with one on standard gauge trucks. That locomotive pulls a couple of standard gauge cars. I'll probably convert another one to SG in the future. It is a highly accurate well detailed model of the original GE locomotive.
Quote from: norman on August 17, 2014, 07:25:16 PM
LGB had the correct product concept using R1 curves. Bachmann should have followed the wisdom of the LGB train founders.
Using that logic, Lionel had it right with 3 rail, 0-27 trains (my second train set at ~8 years old). It even had a whistle!
And if Bachmann had followed that wisdom, would they have gone through bankruptcy too? Would the surviving company be stuck with lots of molds and products that they have a hard time selling, with absolutely nothing new coming from them??
Norman, I really do appreciate your interest in no-scale, toy trains. That in itself is a hobby. But, the fact is that the market was demanding more to scale trains, and Bachmann (along with several other manufacturers) fulfilled that demand. As to running on R-1 curves, I actually have some R-1 curves on my RR. Engines and rolling stock are limited to four wheels in a mining scenario. I also have an LGB Unitah Mallet that will run on R-1 curves. The fact that it is of no particular scale and is seriously compromised (as a scale model) means that it is perpetually For Sale. Just not much market for those toys.
Dear Mr. Yardmaster:
A clerk at a mail order dealer explained to me that when LGB went bankrupt the sales of the other large scale products simply froze up.
I guess that when the LGB collectors realised that their collections were not a financial investment, but rather were only an investment in fun, the LGB collector sales market collapsed.
I still do not understand why the other large scale manufactures also suffered but there it is.
I hope that you will expand your 1:24 / 1:22.5 product line and add piston rods to the Little Hauler loco with tender while also moving the smoke stack forward in line with the steam cylinders.
The Little Hauler loco with tender has the components required for the Baldwin forney presently on the Disneyland RR as loco No. 5 .
At present, I have been purchasing locomotives from the HLW product line as they produce product in the 1:24 / 1:22.5 scale.
I hope that you can improve the Gandy Dancer drive and re-release the model in yellow and once again offer reasonably priced products in the 1:24 / 1:22.5 scale. I have bought several Spectrum 4-4-0 and 2-6-0 locos but not all product is required to be designed at that extreme level of detail. The 1:20.3 caboose is excellent but again this caboose is positively huge and is of no use to myself. Detailed models in 1:24 / 1:22.5 scale would be attractive to a large segment of your former customers wishing to again return as a customer of Bachmann if new 1:24 / 1:22.5 product was offered.
Norman
It's pretty clear from Bachmann's products that they see large scale as simply a bigger version of HO: that is, for the most part they're in the business of model railroads and there's been a shift toward more detail and more accuracy from all manufacturers in all scales.
It's pretty clear from your preferences that you see model railways as 'toys', with locos and stock little better than caricatures of the real thing.
Nothing wrong with that, and Bachmann cater for the market in their Li'l Big Haulers and 'Thomas' range. But Bachmann also want to cater for the model railroader in large scale and they've done okay doing it.
Hi Jerry:
" Norman, I really do appreciate your interest in no-scale, toy trains. That in itself is a hobby. "
For myself as long as the model is a scale model ( with an incorrect track gauge ) I am happy. So my interest is in 1:24 scale models with the compromise of an incorrect track gauge enabling the model to turn on R1 curves.
I do not like compressed models as per the Lionel 0-27 locomotives. But this compression served a purpose of enabling Lionel to sell locomotives which would run on 0-27 track in a confined space. Exact scale Lionel locomotive models were of greater length and hence required greater track radius thereby reducing total customer sales. It is all a marketing compromise.
Even the track gauge of HO scale ( half of O scale ) is not exact.
All of these model railroad products are toys regardless of scale and regardless of price. The model railroad products offered differ in their approximation to the prototype but all of these products are toys.
Only the non powered engineering prototype models originally built as a " one of " by the locomotive manufacturers to present to the end customer to generate sales of the prototype are not toys as these models are static.
We are all playing with toys regardless of scale, price and if the model is electric powered or live steam powered. This is just a hobby to relieve stress through the distraction of playing with toy trains.
Norman
It will be very unlikely that I will be buying any more 1:22.5/24 trains. The one exception would be if Bachmann or some other manufacturer came out with K-27 or 28 in 1:22.5/24. I have a significant collection of narrow gauge freight and passenger cars in that scale and I'd like to have a suitable engine(s) to pull it.
I have been in LS since about 1980. About 90% of the time I am running 1:20.3 or 1:29 on my layout in Virginia.
We spend about three months a year in the Phoenix area. When we are out there I have a temporary layout on the patio. Everything on that layout is 1:22.5/24. I took some of it out there because it just sat unused here.
In my opinion, R1 curves are fine for a temporary layout. Such as under a Christmas tree (on a dark rug,or easily cleaned floor). There is a lot of wear on the wheels and track, not to mention gears and motors in the engines with small diameter curves. People complain about black dust on the floor under the track. That dust is brass and plastic. The brass is coming from the engine and other metal wheels grinding the railhead and the plastic is coming from the plastic wheels being ground down by the railhead. This wear can be minimized by using larger diameter curves. It can never be totally eliminated, it is just a fact of life with our heavy engines and cars.
I will continue to support Bachmann and other manufacturers in 1:20.3 and 1:29, just not 1:22.5/24. I like the detail and size of those scales.
Chuck
Quote from: norman on August 17, 2014, 07:25:16 PM
My belief is that your move to 1:20.3 scale torpedoed largescale.
1:22.5 ( actually 1:24 with the LGB rolling stock, USA Trains narrow gauge and HLW product ) was an excellent product size for both interior and outdoor layouts.
Norman
I know Jerry already commented on this, but I agree with him, that moving away from 1/22.5 and 1/24 and moving toward 1/20.3 has *helped* the hobby tremendously, not hurt it..Given a choice, I think most people would prefer models that are much closer to scale (or exactly to scale in the case of 1/20.3) than models that are significantly off, which was the case with models of 3-foot gauge trains in 1/22.5 and 1/24 scales..
So, 1/20.3 = much better idea.
sticking with 1/22.5 or 1/24 = much worse idea..IMO.
And, we really have to have two different scales in Large scale, one for narrow gauge, and one for standard gauge.
because they simply aren't compatible in one scale..it cant be done.
Narrow gauge has pretty much settled on 1/20.3 scale, thanks to Bachmann mostly, as it should, since 3-foot gauge is the most
modeled and most popular of narrow gauge gauges, and 1/20.3 is the correct scale for 3 foot gauge on 45mm track.
so that's definately the right choice for the "narrow gauge scale"..that half of the hobby is "fixed" nicely now.
I wont get into 1/29 versus 1/32 for standard gauge! ;)
Quote from: norman on August 17, 2014, 10:16:05 PM
Even the track gauge of HO scale ( half of O scale ) is not exact.
That is not correct..HO scale track is exact for standard gauge in 1/87 scale,
also correct for scale/gauge is HOn3, On3, On2, Fn3, 1/32, S scale, N scale, and lots of other scales..
There are more scale/gauge combinations that are correct, than there are incorrect.
Scot
Well, in 1:24, 45mm gauge works out to 3'6" which just happens to be the narrow gauge in this part of the world (and in many others of course; hence it's nicknmae "cape gauge"). But very little is now being produced which is scale accurate in 1:24; and even where it is it's era is not appopriate to what I model, or is in some other way compromised. However, I'm not expecting Bachmann to cater to my taste; they need to go where the best successful commercial propositions lie because any other route is likely to see them join the list of those who once made large scale models.
So I'm reduced to kitbashing what ever they choose to produce where I can see a successful bash. But that's the point isn't it? - If I could buy RTR everything I wanted then, given I have minimal interest in the minutae of operation I'd just be playing trains; where as as it is I have to model to get what I want.
So my bottom line is that I would welcome anything that Bachmann chooses to produce provided it's not limited to just 1:29 - that would cause me a problem. I don't think they're going the route of 1:29 only as it would let a lot of customers down who might just take their bat and ball and go home, but it is a worry at the back of my mind.
At the same time I'm not all that well off - a loco which is selling for $750 in the US will be $2000 or so if I were to buy it from one of the small number of retaillers in Australia; but even buying from the US I have a self imposed limit of $400, whcih means I can usually afford Big Haulers but not Spectrum. On the other hand, I don't need the bells and whistles - I'm battery r/c so I don't need DCC compatability and if I want sound I'll install MyLocosound which I can buy by hopping in my car and going to see the manufacturer, or buying at one of his open days, and from a detail point of view the current Big Haulers are fine.
So my plea would be for Bachmann to not forget those of us towards the lower end of the market, and to (occasionally at least) keep going with a few models in the Big Hauler range with relatively low spec electronics. But that still has to fit in the business model, I guess, and I imagine there is more profit in the high end spec Spectrums.
Steve
That was a great post, Steve, and a reminder that not everybody can blow a month or two's spending money - maybe more - on a single loco, rather than boring stuff like food, utilities, clothes and so on.
A while back I tried sending some stuff to a contact in Melbourne - all in vain. By the time he had received my model train 'care package', with a genuine declared value of £95.00, it had somehow 'grown in value' to north of AUS$500.00. We never tried that again.
Best down there, Sport.
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
Terry.
The GST free threshold for mail items into Australia is A$1,000 so the assessment from £95.00 to A$500 +, should have made no difference to the cost of importing the parcel.
Customs Duty may be payable but should never be more than 71/2 %. So, if ever sending model RR related items via the mail always quote the TC #9503.00.00, then no import duty is payable.