Bachmann Message Board

Discussion Boards => HO => Topic started by: rookie123 on September 21, 2014, 08:29:50 AM



Title: HO crossover track
Post by: rookie123 on September 21, 2014, 08:29:50 AM
I have two track loops each about 7' x 7'. I run analog train on the inner and a DCC on the outer loop. If I put in 2 crossover so I can run the trains on either track, will I be able to use the Bachmann DCC controller to power both rail loops and trains. All the engines are Bachmann as well as the tracks. Will probably add another Bachmann DCC engine at some points.

Thanks for the help,
Rookie


Title: Re: HO crossover track
Post by: jward on September 21, 2014, 10:47:59 AM
yes, you will be able to run dcc everywhere using the setup you describe.

you'll want to make sure your dc power pack is disconnected before you do this. dc and dcc cannot power the same track at the same time. the results are catastrophic.


Title: Re: HO crossover track
Post by: Jerrys HO on September 21, 2014, 11:32:59 AM
If I may suggest running a pair of feeders to the inside and outside loops as not to lose voltage in between the  two loops divided by the crossover.


Title: Re: HO crossover track
Post by: Joe Satnik on September 21, 2014, 04:55:59 PM
Dear Rook,

Please consider eliminating the DC power pack's speed/direction output from the rails of your layout.

(The DC power pack's Accessory Output terminals can/should remain to power the dual-coil solenoids that move the points of your turnouts and crossovers.) 

The remote crossover tracks (44575 Left and 44576 right) need extensive modifications

(cuts to rails and foils) to separate the 2 main lines from each other for DC block operation.

One DCC source sent everywhere works best for layouts using these crossovers. 

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik


Title: Re: HO crossover track
Post by: rookie123 on September 21, 2014, 07:07:50 PM
Joe, I do not have any turnouts on these two loops and that's why I want to put in a crossover on opposite sides. I just assumed the DCC power supply would run the crossovers. But it sounds like the installation of the crossovers is way to difficult for me to consider.

Thanks for you help,
Rookie


Title: Re: HO crossover track
Post by: Jerrys HO on September 21, 2014, 07:46:09 PM
Rookie,

I think you are misunderstanding the answers. Jeff and Joe both state that yes it will work for DCC,
I will back that up from experience, as I have a right hand and left hand crossover.
The point being made is DO NOT ATTEMPT to use your DC power with DCC power together.
Joe's  mention of modifications to the crossovers, ONLY applies if you are using DC to power your layout.
You will be OK with the two loops and crossovers with DCC.
I added the post of adding more feeder wires whether you use two terminal rerailers or powered rail joiners or solder straight to the track. It will help distribute power to the loops where you won't have power issues.

Jerry


Title: Re: HO crossover track
Post by: Doneldon on September 22, 2014, 12:20:53 AM
Rook-

DCC will work fine for speed and direction all over your layout. I strongly suggest using DCC feeds to each loop, and probably two or three to each loop if they are as big as 7'x7'. You can operate turnouts on DCC but they MUST say DCC turnout on the package. DCC will NOT operate remote turnouts which do not have stationary decoders installed.

If your turnouts are non-DCC remotes, your best option is to power them with the variable DC or fixed AC outputs from a regular power pack, NOT the output from a DCC system. If you already have non-DCC turnouts but want to operate them using DCC, you would have to install stationary decoders. To me, that's too much of a hassle and expense for a small layout which only has turnouts to allow trains to cross from one loop to another. You'll only lose one thing if you operate conventional remote turnouts without DCC: the ability to control the turnouts from your DCC controller from anywhere around the layout as opposed to having a button in a fixed place.
                                                       -- D
 


Title: Re: HO crossover track
Post by: rookie123 on September 22, 2014, 07:49:48 AM
Guys, thanks very much. It sounds like this is doable so I'll do some more thinking/exploring and might be getting back to you.

Thanks very much,
Rookie


Title: Re: HO crossover track
Post by: JimJim on September 29, 2014, 02:18:44 PM
You could just go with the EZ Command system, which does support both DC and DCC on the same pike.
I have recently converted by using this system. I have also added the 5-amp power booster and a Bachmann analog speed controller.
I can now run 10 channels of DCC and one channel of DC simultaneously. By adding the DC controller this frees up the previously DC dedicated channel 10 on the EZ Command controller.
I am running a 8X10 table top pike, considered a small layout.
The drawback to this simple system is that you cannot access higher CV functions; acceleration curve, advanced lighting functions, etc.
On the plus side it eliminated all the wiring and block controllers needed for a DC system. I went from 16 control blocks to basically two wires to feed the entire system. Imagine a time saver on steroids.
If you do decide in the future to upgrade to a more advanced system the EZ Command system is compatible with the Dynamis wireless controller which will give you the higher CV functions.
Hope this helps.


Title: Re: HO crossover track
Post by: rookie123 on October 01, 2014, 08:31:37 AM
Jim, thanks so much for this information. I found video on YouTube that show exactly what you describe and will use this for my future planning.

Appreciate all the help,
Rookie


Title: Re: HO crossover track
Post by: jward on October 01, 2014, 11:31:54 AM
i think a clarification needs to be made here.


when you add a dc controller to a dcc system such as ez command or digitrax zehyr, this does NOT mean you are running dc and dcc on the same layout. with those two systems, the dc controller is used by the dcc system as an additional dcc controller, with no programming capability. locomotives must be addressed to this dc controller by the dcc command station.
also, wth some systems, including the two mentioned above, you can control a dc locomotive with your dcc controller. once again this does NOT mean you are running dc and dcc at the same time. the dc locomotive is being controlled by a modified form of dcc .

lest anybody be confused as to what I am talking about, dcc is a form of ac, and connecting ac and dc to the same track at the same time will cause a dead short and possibly destroy your dcc system. running a dc locomotive on a dcc system is not the same.


Title: Re: HO crossover track
Post by: JimJim on October 01, 2014, 01:53:19 PM
Jeff,
I respectfully disagree.
As I type this I am running a Bachmann GE 70 ton Diesel Loco DCC Equipped Locomotive (#60613) on address 4 while simultaneously running a Bachmann Analog F7A, on the same controller on the D/C channel 10. Each having independent cab control.
They have been chasing each other around the mainline with no damage, other than the possibility of a crash, for the past 5-minutes.
When the analog loco is not moving I remove it from the track to avoid overheating the DC motor. As stated in the E-Z Command instruction book.
I do not consist a DC and a DCC. Also I donít run the analog locoís on the Wye you helped me wire.
Thatís the beauty of the E-Z Command system.
If what Iím doing is technically impossible donĎt tell the bumble bee that it canít fly.
Respectfully.


Title: Re: HO crossover track
Post by: Joe Satnik on October 01, 2014, 02:39:49 PM
Dear All,

The analog DC controller does not power the DC locomotive on the DCC track.  

It only provides an analog reference voltage (proportional to your desired speed and direction) to the EZ-Command DCC controller,

which interprets it and "stretches the zeros" of the DCC signal to the track, which fools the DC locomotive into running.  

Problem is, though, that when the DC loco is stopped and still resting on the DCC tracks, the full power DCC signal will "cook" the poor DC loco's motor.

Get your DC loco off the tracks as soon as possible after stopping,

or park it on a siding with one isolated rail that can be shut off (from the track DCC signal) with an electrical switch.  

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

Edit: Spelling      


Title: Re: HO crossover track
Post by: Hunt on October 01, 2014, 03:40:05 PM
Adding to what Joe Satnik wrote. . . .

JimJim,
What you believe is a common misconception. The DC locomotive is being controlled with a method that modifies the DCC waveform known as Zero Stretching (Zero Bit Stretching).
 
 Click Here  (http://www.dccwiki.com/Zero_Stretching) it may help with understanding.


Title: Re: HO crossover track
Post by: JimJim on October 01, 2014, 04:12:03 PM
Hello All,
Yes I agree that the analog motor is being fooled by the digital waveform known as zero stretching. And, if left on the track the analog motor will fry, as per the warning in the E-Z Command instruction book. It does give the caveat of possible damage occurring by running analog locos over long periods of time.
As Iíve stated in my previous post: ďWhen the analog loco is not moving I remove it from the track to avoid overheating the DC motor. As stated in the E-Z Command instruction bookĒ
Rookie123ís original question was, and Iím paraphrasing, ďis it possible to run both analog and digital locos on the same pike.Ē
The simple answer is yes. Iím doing it right now as I type.
If Bachmann never intended for both analog and digital to run on the same pike then why do they highlight that feature in the E-Z Command instruction booklet? (E-Z Command Setup and Programming Instructions; Page 6, STANDARD DC LOCOMOTIVE OPERATION.)
Thank you all for your input to what has become a heated topic.
Respectfully.
J.J.


Title: Re: HO crossover track
Post by: rookie123 on October 01, 2014, 04:21:41 PM
I really do appreciate all this feedback on this subject. You guys are just awesome. I'll be able to take care of my needs I believe based on all your inputs.

Have a wonderful day,
Rookie


Title: Re: HO crossover track
Post by: Doneldon on October 01, 2014, 04:55:30 PM
Jeff,
I respectfully disagree.
As I type this I am running a Bachmann GE 70 ton Diesel Loco DCC Equipped Locomotive (#60613) on address 4 while simultaneously running a Bachmann Analog F7A, on the same controller on the D/C channel 10. Each having independent cab control.
They have been chasing each other around the mainline with no damage, other than the possibility of a crash, for the past 5-minutes.

JimJim-

You are mistaken. You are most definitely not running both AC and DC. Jeff was absolutely correct in his post. The ability to run a single DC loco on a DCC system just means you are taking advantage of a peculiarity in the way DCC works. You would ruin everything if you actually had DCC and DC connected to a common track.
                                -- D


Title: Re: HO crossover track
Post by: JimJim on October 01, 2014, 05:35:39 PM
AHH!!!
I see where the confusion stems from...
I should have specified that Iím running both an analog direct current locomotive and a digitally controlled alternating current locomotive; feeding a direct current motor through a printed circuit board that converts, single phase, alternating current to direct current, that facilitates independent cab control through an alternating current system utilizing the zero stretching capabilities found in the Bachmann E-Z Commandģ system.
An apology to all.