4 of these were left unanswered in previous threads I posted and 1, the last one is new. I hope someone can help me with the answers:
Q 1. Best glue for Bachmann plastic and best glue for Bachmann to other plastic.
Q 2. Little advice from members on lubrication of Shay and 4 0 6. I saw on a youtube video someone say car motor oil works better on plastic gears than specialized products?
Q 3. How to replace damaged nylon toothed gear wheel on wheel axle of a 406 chassis and where to find a new wheel.
Q 4. Middle pair of drive wheels on both my 4 6 0 chassis do not touch the rails, they stay constantly 1 cm above. It would seem that since both chassis exhibit the same characteristics it is either deliberately so or a general construction defect.
Q. 5. I bought a Dallee sound card with sound for my 38 ton two truck Shay, I removed the fuel bunker according to instructions to access the main PC board. For the simple installation I want The Dalle card needs only be connected to the right and left rail pickups. So which connectors on the PC card are these?
Thank you for your help.
Regarding questions 2 and 3. If you have 4-0-6, you have a bigger problem. No drive wheels means no go.
Seriously, on your last question. I'm no expert, but I don't think it makes much of a difference for sound. If you reverse the direction of the engine, change polarity on the track, left becomes right and right becomes left.
Chuck
Correction, I ment 4-6-0.
The PC card in the Shay is quite complex, many unmarked connectors, many colored wires and electrical components, two connectors in there must be the right ones.
The Annie I recently bought had some broken parts, I fixed them with MEK (Methyl Ethyl Ketone). It works well on styrene and so far on whatever the Annie is made of. I bought a quart can of it at a local hardware store. It'll take paint off in a hurry and well dissolve styrene if left in a bath of it too long, makes a good putty though for filling holes ;D
3T,
Let me see what I can do.
1. Best glue for Bachmann plastic and best glue for Bachmann to other plastic.
There are two methods of joining plastics. One is what you refer to as a glue. The second is solvent welding. SAL Fan touched on the second method. As he mentioned, MEK is a good solvent for many plastics. A second is Acetone. Both are solvents / cleaners and work well for de-greasing metal parts for painting as well. As a solvent weld product, they effectively melt the surfaces of the two parts together. It will take a few moments holding the parts in alignment for the solvent to do it's job. As for glues, there are not many that will adhere to the smooth surfaces of plastics. The only other products I would recomment would be either epoxy or ACC cement.
2. Little advice from members on lubrication of Shay and 4 0 6. I saw on a youtube video someone say car motor oil works better on plastic gears than specialized products?
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, use motor oil on plastic parts. You can use automotive lubricants so long as they clearly state "Save for use on plastics" on the label. I personally use a white lithium grease for that purpose.
3. How to replace damaged nylon toothed gear wheel on wheel axle of a 406 chassis and where to find a new wheel.
There are no replacement gears available, to my knowledge, for the 4-6-0 line of locomotives. Bachmann has chosen to not offer any sort of replacement part or assembly for the nylon gears that fail. If you wish a permanent fix, I would recommend going over to either Large Scale Central or My Large Scale forum and locating Barry Olsen of Barry's Big Trains. He can supply you a complete bullet proof chassis that will run forever. Another possible alternative is North West Short Line. I am not sure they have a replacement gear, but they may. They have for other Bachmann locomotives.
4. Middle pair of drive wheels on both my 4 6 0 chassis do not touch the rails, they stay constantly 1 cm above. It would seem that since both chassis exhibit the same characteristics it is either deliberately so or a general construction defect.
Consider that the chassis of the Bachmann 4-6-0 is a rigid affair. There is no vertical motion on any axle, and definitely no equalization. Combine this with the ability of the 4-6-0 to negotiate 4 foot diameter (2 foot radius) curves and I hope a picture begins to become clear. I am a professional mechanical designer and fully understand the logic in play. Notice that the middle driver is a 'blind' driver, no flange. This is done to eliminate the binding that would occur if there was a flange on that driver and then attempt to negotiate such tight curves. Should the drive have been designed with an equalized suspension, the center blind driver would have dropped off the rail head on such a tight curve and again bound the locomotive up. I would believe that the minimal clearance you are referring to is both deliberate and necessary to the operation of the locomotive in it's intended environment.
As I have the older 36T two truck Shay and have never opened mine up I cannot help there. However a word or warning here. The Dallee sound card is designed for a two cylinder locomotive, 2 chuffs per revolution. A Shay locomotive has three cylinders requiring 6 chuffs per revolution of the crankshaft. Depending on how you intend to trigger the chuff trigger you may not get the sounds you are looking for.
I hope I have been able to assist you in your quest for information. Happy Railroading!
Bob C.
Thank you so much, your answers are very enlightening. I telephoned Dallee before buying the soundboard , they have many soundboard variations, each for a specific locomotive sound. For the Large scale Bachmann 38 ton two truck Shay they recommended soundboards "Shay #911 for track power, or #738 for DCC, or remote control. I bought the #911 since track power , no DCC nor remote is what I want. I hope it has the right sound as they say it does at Dallee.
I still hope someone will tell me where on the PC board to attach the two wires from the Dallee soundboard, I do not understand wiring diagrams so I hope a photo or layman's description will be given.
TTT
Slow down a little and try not to take on too much at a time. I learned the hard way that trying to do two or three complex projects at a time can be difficult and stressful possibly ruining ones enjoyment of the hobby. Focus on one project and work on it till you have success, and it will help you gain confidence.
When taking something apart, take photos as you go for reference later. Also bag the small parts and screws as you go marking the bags with a number and note about it. Work in reverse order when reassembling. You will be glad you did and it will keep you from losing parts or using the wrong screw.
Q1 On the styrene body parts, say a crack in the cab roof you can use any liquid cement designed for styrene. Some of the plastic parts are made of a slick engineering plastic( delrin). Delrin is very difficult to repair and is slick and slippery, I have had some success using epoxy after roughing up the slick plastic, but for delrin parts I usually just replace them. delrin to styrene is also very difficult, also use epoxy or replace. I almost always replace broken parts. Broken 4-6-0 appear on Ebay from time to time, try to pick one up for parts.
Q2 Do not use petroleum based oils as they eventually eat plastic and destroy it. Use only plastic compatible oils and greases.
Q3 There were 6 different chassis on the 4-6-0 so it is hard to say without knowing which version you have. it is most likely ver2 3 4 or5. The link below shows how to change a gear on a different locomotive but the procedures are basically the same.
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,19904.0.html
I posted a separate topic on chassis identification, it may help you identify what you have.
If you have a Big Hauler 4-6-0, it is best to just change out the entire chassis. A whole new chassis is only $30 direct from Bachmann. Here is one example:
http://estore.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_69_148&products_id=4093
By the time you find an aftermarket gear supplier such as Northwest Shortline NWSL order the gear, and pay shipping you will spend close to the cost of the new chassis and still have an old chassis with a one new gear and other older gears which may have damage as well. Save your self a lot of trouble and get a new chassis. Everyone I have advised to do this have been very happy with the decision because the chassis you buy for $30 is a brand new factory assembled smooth running trouble free Version 5 chassis.
If you buy on Ebay you never know what chassis you will get and the older versions had issues that were all resolved in the new version 5 chassis.
Q4 deliberate(not sure why) but it helps on supertight curves and improves tracking.
Q 5 I would not work from the board, trace the wires up from the trucks and tap into them rather than the board. If you must connect directly to the board, you will need to refer to the wiring diagram. At first glance the wiring diagram seems very complex. The best way is to start at the pickup wires on the truck and trace them to the board. Using a colored pencil to mark the line really helps with the tracing. The wire colors are noted on the diagram as well use the same color of pencil if you can.
Cheers & Beers!!!
Loco Bill
TTT - if you have a centre drivewheel that is positioned 1cm above the track then you have one serious problem. I just measured mine, and found the gap to be just over 1.6 millimeteres - nowhere near the 10 millimetres you say that you have.
Have I missed something here?
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
Quote from: Seaboard Air Line Fan on November 16, 2014, 06:44:29 PM
The Annie I recently bought had some broken parts, I fixed them with MEK (Methyl Ethyl Ketone). It works well on styrene and so far on whatever the Annie is made of. I bought a quart can of it at a local hardware store. It'll take paint off in a hurry and well dissolve styrene if left in a bath of it too long, makes a good putty though for filling holes ;D
Wow! What it must be like to live in a Free country! Here in UK it's sold as 'Plastic Weld' in a tiny glass bottle for around $9. The store clerk will only sell you one at a time, too.
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
Apologies, I meant 1mm not 1cm, I must proof read more carefully.
Is acetone also sold one at a time for $9 in the UK? Or is it less effective than MEK?
I do have a slight dyslexia problem, lagonda for gondola, 4 0 6 for 4 6 0 , 1 cm for 1 mm... but it has improved tremendously over the years, as a child my spelling in all languages was abominable, it is much better now, fortunately this has no bearing on intelligence or grammar which I personally consider more important. My wife who also speaks several languages fluently has the same problem, we are both fine art graduates proficient in classical oil painting, although it seems contradictory it has been implied in studies of dyslexia that individuals who are very visually oriented often have dyslexic tendencies, I believe this might be true. Again I must apologise for wandering off the Bachmann mandatory subject but since this defect of mine has been pointed at repeatedly in this forum I felt an explanation was appropriate. I will proofread carefully in the future.
Bill thank you, It will take me some time to absorb all the information in your answers and reference articles, I have already exchanged a chassis on a 4 6 0 , my Swanee River Special, you helped me with that, I know you are right about better exchange than fix , it's just that everytime I see the discarded chassis from the Suwannee River loco I get an urge to fix it. It seems such a waste, but we must adapt to this consumer society.
How much better is the 6th generation 4 6 0 chassis than the 5th ? You say most problems have been fixed on the 5th but it still has nylon gears. The 6th generation chassis you say has an improved front car and metal gears, a great improvement over the 5th surely. So it is tempting to adapt the 6th generation chassis to shells meant for the fifth, you mentioned this as being possible and not difficult. What exactly is involved in this adaptation and do you think the 6th gen chassis is sufficiently better to prefer it over the 5th generation when one needs to replace a 4th or older chassis?
Quote from: trainstrainstrains on November 17, 2014, 10:04:13 AM
Bill thank you, It will take me some time to absorb all the information in your answers and reference articles, I have already exchanged a chassis on a 4 6 0 , my Swanee River Special, you helped me with that, I know you are right about better exchange than fix , it's just that everytime I see the discarded chassis from the Suwannee River loco I get an urge to fix it. It seems such a waste, but we must adapt to this consumer society.
How much better is the 6th generation 4 6 0 chassis than the 5th ? You say most problems have been fixed on the 5th but it still has nylon gears. The 6th generation chassis you say has an improved front car and metal gears, a great improvement over the 5th surely. So it is tempting to adapt the 6th generation chassis to shells meant for the fifth, you mentioned this as being possible and not difficult. What exactly is involved in this adaptation and do you think the 6th gen chassis is sufficiently better to prefer it over the 5th generation when one needs to replace a 4th or older chassis?
I dunno about generations of Big Haulers and so-called 'Annies', but my original 'Annie', bought new when it came out, what, fourteen years ago [?] is still going strong with no issues whatsoever. Guess I'm lucky, eh?
Mind you, I take good care of it. It's interesting to show it, as I often do, haulings its train of five or six lit-up White Pass cars - all bought off **** for around $35 each, and then running that same train behind another company's loco that cost literally 30-times as much.
My 'Annie' remains a beauty, as a runner or a looker...
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
tac
REFERENTE Q #5.
Looking hard at the wiring diagram I see a very interesting note that states "#9 & #10 PCB connector for triggering customer's speaker module." Is the Dallee sound card a speaker module? I suppose it probably is.
Looking even harder I see that a Red and an Orange wire connect the wheel pickups on each truck to terminals on the PCB . Safer to connect the Dalle there perhaps? I'm being very careful because although I can weld OK I'm not confident with electronics, I can sometimes mess things up without realizing it. The Dallee card has scary warnings like: CAUTION Speaker wires must not contact anything else, this will damage S.C. and void guarantee. CAUTION Device can be damaged by static discharge. I suppose it's just a matter of being cautious.
Quote from: trainstrainstrains on November 17, 2014, 01:15:50 PM
REFERENTE Q #5.
Looking hard at the wiring diagram I see a very interesting note that states "#9 & #10 PCB connector for triggering customer's speaker module." Is the Dallee sound card a speaker module? I suppose it probably is.
Looking even harder I see that a Red and an Orange wire connect the wheel pickups on each truck to terminals on the PCB . Safer to connect the Dalle there perhaps? I'm being very careful because although I can weld OK I'm not confident with electronics, I can sometimes mess things up without realizing it. The Dallee card has scary warnings like: CAUTION Speaker wires must not contact anything else, this will damage S.C. and void guarantee. CAUTION Device can be damaged by static discharge. I suppose it's just a matter of being cautious.
Whenever I install one of these high-falutin' sound systems, I use a copper wrist strop to earth myself to the worktop.
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
"Typically," the power feeds coming from the rails on Bachmann locos are the red and black wires coming up from the power trucks (on locos such as the Shay, Climax, etc) or from the tender and loco chassis. Usually the power to the motor itself on the power trucks are the orange and green wires. The locos I've taken apart have all been fairly consistent in that regard, though there are others who have told tales of different-colored wires being used. A good ohmmeter is your friend to check for continuity. Depending on the version of the Shay, there may be screw terminals on the PC board that you can use to connect to the rail inputs. Look for a pair labeled "L" and "R." Again--check with the ohmmeter to make sure they do connect to the rails, but that would be the easiest way to tap into the track power.
If you've got questions with the Dallee system, don't hesitate to drop them an e-mail or give them a call. I've always found them to be very helpful and responsive to my often pretty dumb questions.
In terms of lubrication, I've heard people say they've had good results with synthetic oils like Mobil 1. I've not tried it myself, having cans of white lithium grease that seem to do the trick well enough for me. That, and a good set of small hobby lubricants from LaBelle, EZ-Lube (Bachmann's house brand, I think), or others. They're pricier than a quart of Mobil1, but "peace of mind" is often worth a few extra dollars.
As others have indicated, don't sweat the middle driver being slightly above the railhead. This is by design, so to help the loco handle uneven track since it's a rigid chassis. If the middle driver touched the rail and the loco went over a hump in the track, the lead driver pair would rise up off the railhead, possibly enough such that the flanges would rise above the rail. If this were to occur on any kind of a curve, the loco would derail. I originally thought as you did--this has to be wrong, and it looks terrible in photos! So--thinking I would outsmart the designers--I got a spare set of flanged drivers, machined off the flanges and turned the wheel so it was the same diameter as the front and rear drivers. It looked great sitting on the track. All the wheels were in contact with the rails as it "should" be. Then I ran it... and found every last little hump, bump, and twist in my track in the process. So, "off with the new, on with the old," and miraculously the loco tracked much better. Lesson learned.
Other locos (Bachmann's "Spectrum" series, for example) use a chassis design where each axle is individually sprung, so it can adapt to twists and bumps in the track much easier. This keeps all the drivers in contact with the railhead, so electrical pick-up is improved in addition to tracking over uneven rails. It's a "better" way to do business, but ads a fair amount to the complexity and expense of the model. Having said that, the 4-6-0 chassis is probably one of the most time-proven designs out there. The gearing has changed, but at no point has Bachmann ever felt the need to spring or equalize the drivers. That speaks volumes. (They did re-do the suspension on the pilot truck with this latest release)
In terms of glues for Bachmann's plastics, it's really going to depend on the plastic. I typically like to use solvent cements (Weld-On or Plastruct or similar that I get from the hobby store) but that's hit-or-miss as to how well it works. Wherever possible, I like to use a mechanical reinforcement to the broken joint. Usually this can take the form of a thin piece of styrene overlapping the back side of the joint (out of sight) if possible, or I drill holes and reinforce the break with wire pins to help keep things in line. It's not always possible, but it is always advantageous when practical. I've learned not to rely solely on glues for joints where things need to stay together.
Later,
K
Will check with the ohmmeter tomorrow and if I have time bond the
Shay's cracked ring. Later on this week I'll lubricate, first time ever. Will wait to see what more Bill has to say about the 4 6 0 chassis (plural) hopefully soon when he settles in. Nice to know the truth about the mysterious airborne middle driver. .Thanks.
I found the wires to tap power from inside the loco with an ohmmeter and then telephoned Dalle for more install advice, they were indeed helpful. But I am considering installing the whole sound system, Dallee sound card, battery, on of switch, and speaker in a specially made enclosure in a gondola or hopper car behind the loco, that way I would leave the loco unaltered which I like, use a larger speaker facing up for better sound and have more space so things are not crammed together in too small a space. Ideally the power in this case should be tapped from the wheels of the car. How would I best go about tapping power from the wheels of the gondola?
Quote from: trainstrainstrains on November 17, 2014, 09:29:53 PM
Will check with the ohmmeter tomorrow and if I have time bond the
Shay's cracked ring. Later on this week I'll lubricate, first time ever. Will wait to see what more Bill has to say about the 4 6 0 chassis (plural) hopefully soon when he settles in. Nice to know the truth about the mysterious airborne middle driver. .Thanks.
Sir - there is no mystery to the 'airborne' middle driver. As has been noted already, many locomotives that needed to traverse sharp bends had flangeless centre wheels, sometimes even TWO sets. In reality, they wheels STILL made contact with the head of the track, but were not restrained by either the sharpness of the curve or the less-than-great condition of switches they might encounter.
As late as the middle 1950's the great British Railways locomotive designer Riddles built the 9F loco, a 2-10-0 fast freight locomotive. Even in 1950's UK, it had a flangeless centre driving axle.
Bachmann have done this on their hauler and annie for precisely the same reasons - sharp curves and often less-than-ideal trackbed, but chose to lift the axle minutely off the railhead to enable the use of tight bends on thrown-down trackage.
It's no big deal. My $4000 Accucraft K27 is the same - maybe the Bachmann version is the same, too.
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
(http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/500/00640013res.jpg)
T3
I don't have any Big Hauler freight cars. All my Bachmann Rollin stock is 1:20.3. LGB's trucks have a place where their carbon (graphite) electrical pickups can be inserted into the couple tongue. Wires can be soldered to the metal sleeve that enclosed the carbon plunger. This is a better mechanism than metal springs pushing against the back if the wheel. That adds a lot of friction, the car may act more like a brick, than an easy rolling car.
A better solution, but more expensive, is to get wheel and axle sets that have ball bearings and electrical pickups. These can be put into existing trucks. This might not be that much more expensive if you have to buy trucks, wheels and electrical pickups.
I have batteries in both a tender and trailing box cars. I prefer the trailing car. It is easy to swap out a dead battery for a fresh one in the trailing car. It is impossible to to that with my batteries in the tender. I have to take the engine and tender off the track and charge it.
Chuck
Quote from: Joe Zullo on November 19, 2014, 07:30:26 AM
(http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/500/00640013res.jpg)
Thanks for posting that image, Joe. A picture etc.......
Best
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
Tac. The intended meaning of my comment is that it was a mystery to me until very logical explanations were posted here. Thank you for contributing with further clarification.
Chuck, thanks, using LGB trucks with place for electrical pickups seems like a very interesting and viable solution, I looked up the pickups you mentioned, they press against the inside of the wheels, I have not found the ball bearing system. I'd like to see what that looks like. Thanks again.
I made a partial goof. Not all LGB freight trucks have sleeves for the pickups. Trucks on cars that need power for sound or lights do (Mogul tenders, cattle and sheep cars) have them. Regular freight cars don't. Passenger trucks also have them.
If you go this route, you will need metal wheels. Bachmann's metal wheels will fit into the LGB frames and they are my preferred replacements for plastic wheels.
I'm sure most large LGB vendors will have the trucks and power pickups (LGB# 63120).
There is a electrical contact set that might be able to be screwed to a Bachmann truck tongue, LGB part # 63193.
Suggested vendors are: Train-Li, Reindeer Pass Railroad, and RLD Hobbies. They all have ads in Garden Railways. Call and talk to them. They might have a better idea. Since you already have trucks, going with two ball bearing with power connections and two axles with plain metal wheels might be the most economical.
Chuck
I just bought a Bachmann Big Hauler Pennsylvania Stock train car with metal wheels to use for the sound, it looks real good, the sound will go out easily thru the spaces between the horizontal planks, plenty of space for everything but not very visible from the outside. I wonder if the pickups for LGB will work on this. I imagine they would with slight adaptation, perhaps Bachmann also makes them?
It worries me a bit that with LGB pickups the friction might act as a brake, also that the contact might be intermittent. Is this worry unfounded? Better contact and less friction with the ball bearing system? Perhaps it is best to draw the power tapping it from the loco as recommended while still having all sound hardware in the Stock car?
I don't really know if the LGB add on contact will work on a Bachmann truck, but I think that with a little modification it could be made to work, if it doesn't out of the box. I have a number of LGB's cars with the plunger, I have never noticed a drag problem. Not like the metal leaf spring that presses against the back of the wheels. Which turn an easily rolling car into a brick.
Adding additional power draw from the engine could ultimately add to intermediate power. Power draw on wheels can ultimately lead to arcing in the wheels. This leads to needing to clean the wheels to increase performance. I have several engines, non Bachmann that have that have excessive arcing that needs the wheels being polished to achieve optimum performance.
In my opinion, the more power pick ups the better. If I were you I'd use the ball bearing axle/wheel sets. Less friction.
It is ultimately your decision. I can't, won't, tell you what to do. I/we, can only make suggestions. It all depends on how much you want to spend and what you are comfortable with.
Chuck
Only thing left to investigate before deciding is the ball bearing pickup system, I do not understand how it works, I've tried to look it up but found nothing, a drawing or photo and prices would help, I'll keep looking.
Here is a link to a website for an skilled individual who makes "G" scale/gauge wheels sets. Many of us consider them the Rolls-Royce of wheel/axle sets.
http://www.audiomobiles.com/trains/trainwheels.html
He has BBs in several configurations.
I think that there are tabs on the axle to which you can solder the leads. Very simple. Contact him for more information.
Chuck
I've been looking at the page with the wheel sets with contacts, Great stuff, thank you, looks like the thing to do if the friction is minimal and the contact good. If I understand correctly to have the ball bearing system I would have to change at least 1 set of wheels on the Stock car that already has metal wheels. Alternatively if I install article LGB 63193 ELECTRICAL CONTACT it would be easy and a little cheaper , but are these the ones you say make the car immovable like a brick? You must think I'm really slow but all this is very new to me and I want to be sure I understand.
NO. There are three options; BBs, LGB, and a bronze spring on the back of the wheel. The BBs and the LGB have very little friction. The metal strip pressing against the back of the wheel does.
I would recommend a power pick up axle on each truck, not just one. That would be two pickups.
Chuck
OK, Peace of mind at last. Since I've already bought the Bachman Stock car with steel wheels, I'll probably go for the LGB's this time , 2 sets for $13 and free shipping , The BB's would be 15 each , thats $30 plus shipping. I'll sleep on it, Good night.
That should be fine.
Chuck