Hi all,
New here and recently returning to the hobby. I got two Bachmann HO sets for Christmas many years ago. One was the Power House set seen here in this Youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER8c-zX8cHk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER8c-zX8cHk) and the other was just a generic set with a steam locomotive and a few cars. Both of the locomotives are DOA, so I purchased the GE 44AC Central of Georgia DCC with sound locomotive. I love it, it's amazing how much better these locomotives run compared to 30 years ago. Anyway, the freight cars use the older hook and horn couplers, so I purchased some EZ Mate II Couplers to work with the new locomotive. Well they are not compatible with these cars from the 1980s. Before I get a lecture about Kadee, I know I didn't do proper research, I purchased the EZ Mate couplers, so I'm stuck with them. So, knowing this, what all do I need to get these cars up and rolling again. New trucks? Wheels, Gear boxes? etc. I thought this was going to be much simpler, I hadn't realized how much had changed over the years. I've already spent a good chunk of change, so I'd like to keep costs minimal for now. Thank you for an insight or assistance.
Kadee gear boxes, #242 will work with the EZ Mate Mark IIs. I have used them together. The next part you may not like bc it goes against keeping costs down, but I would not reuse or modify the existing trucks and wheelsets; instead, I would purchase new (non-talgo) trucks and new metal wheelsets and do it all up the right way. Lots of ways to do that by modifying the bolster hole to mount the trucks. But, more $$ in materials.
I figured as much, the trucks I currently have are plastic and either snap into the bottom or are attached to the bottom(metal) of each car. Up to this point I have been a "pull the stuff out of the box, put it on the track, and go" kind of guy. Will these new trucks even be compatible with the older freight cars?
So to put a shopping list together, I would need kadee #242 gear boxes, trucks, and wheels. Is there a specific brand on those you recommend? Thanks again!
Your are welcome.
The right trucks will be compatible yes. They should be made of delrin plastic; the style of truck can match the era of car you are modifying: for exmaple, 70 ton, 2 coil spring trucks on older frieght or 100 ton 3 coil spring trucks for newer. There are also truck types like Bettendorf for example, if you are into that kind of exacting detail. Brand matters less than design. Athearn trucks will not work well for your kind of project bc they are designed to mount on the 'knub" that is at the bottom of the frame of their cars where the bolster is and the screw goes. However, I have found that most other brands, like Accurail and Roundhouse work well for a project like yours, bc the tops of the truck where the screw fits is flat and this will have the car resting on it, the flat part.
Size of wheels is important: 33" for old stuff, 36" for newer/and heavier stuff. Brand, I like Kadee and Proto 2K and Intermountain. I would say Intermountain roll the best but are also cost the most. Buying in bulk helps to reduce cost per unit.
Essential for this project is also having a Kadee coupler height gauge (many forget the gauge also has an end that you can roll the car over to get an idea of how high or low your coupler boxes should be mounted).
Several ways to modify the car to be able to mount the trucks. Do you want to know more?
I finally get it, I think my confusion was ultimately based on the idea that the wheels, truck, and couplers were all together. Mainly because I have no newer cars and the older cars had them together. I guess these are the Talgo trucks you mentioned before? I have a temporary fix for the time being. I have swapped out a hook and horn coupler on one of my Talgo trucks with an ez mate coupler. This is so I can at least couple with the locomotive, it's not a very good connection, but I'm running at a lower speed on just an oval right now. I have to get through the holidays before I proceed with upgrading my fleet of cars, which is 12 and expanding my track. Thanks again for your help!
Might I suggest cutting off the coupler box and body mounting a kadee coupler box to your lead car.
You are quite welcome Jimmy.
I understand what you are saying.
Some time ago, a member, Balrog21 as I recall, posted a link to a YouTube video he came across that showed someone doing the same as you. I recall Mr. Ward advising against that, stating, and I paraphrase: "just because you can do something does not mean you should". I have to agree, that ultimately, the best way is to mount coupler boxes for the knuckle style couplers of your choice (although I have come around to thinking Kadee are best, but not necessary in all circumstances) and replaciing those talgo style trucks and wheelsets.
Your current plan of action will certainly buy you some time to save for those prospects. Once you do a car or two, it becomes easy. And is what I consider a fun accomplishment when done properly, to include adding weight to the freight car.
Best of luck.
Delrin trucks are produced with equalization in mind, avoiding using sprung trucks. It is largely a personal preference; as, if worked properly, metal wheel-sets and proper modification of said truck should give you a satisfactory representation. For what it worth, make sure [that] you clean out the axle hole. There is a tool available from Micro-Mark, Walthers, etc that will make short work of this. Properly finished trucks are vital to smooth trouble-free operation.
Couplers: Lose the "talgo" business quickly. Body-mount your couplers, using a Kadee coupler gauge. Again; being exacting will pay big dividends in the long run.
RIch C.
BTW....there is nothing wrong with EZ Mate couplers..... ::)
Yardy, check out my past posts on the subject; you'll find I am one of the few that post here (in the minority I should add) whom actually consistently promote the use of Bachmann EZ Mate Mark IIs ::)
Richie, am I mistaken, or did I not see you at some time, promoting the use of Kadee metal trucks?
And both you dudes have a Great Thanksgiving!
since my name was kindly mentioned in this post I will add my thoughts.....
with knuckle type couplers, matching the height is critical. just putting a knuckle coupler in a talgo coupler box will result in a coupler which sits too low, from my experience. plus, talgos do not back well regardless or what coupler you use, as all the stresses are transmitted through the coupler and truck. it's like trying to push on a chain. thus, you will want to body mount your couplers. invest in a kadee coupler height guage and use it every time. you also may have to bring the coupler height down from the car floor, I use styrene shims for this. note that the horn on the end of the kadee guage should just slip under the car floor. when you have things adjusted so that it does that, drill a hole for tha draft gear box and mount it with a screw.
as for the trucks themselves, I will often reuse the originals rather than go to the trouble of filling in the mounting holes and drilling new ones. I do, however replace all my wheelsets with ones conforming to nmra rp25 specs. note that the 33" wheels will work for just about any freight car even if they are not 100% accurate. using the larger 36" wheels can cause interference with parts of the car floor. my favourite replacement wheelsets are nwsl, which are very pricey, but I have extensively used those from jaybee, intermountain and Bachmann. all have served me well, and the main reason I like nwsl is the nickel silver colour. you will probably want to use a truck tuning tool to ream out the journals of the trucks so that the replacement wheels roll freely.
one final thing you need to do is to add weight to these cars. they are all underweight, and that can cause them to derail. pennies glued inside the car over each truck are a cost effective way to add weight.
converting a fleet of cars is a lot of work. some convert easier than others, but the conversions do take time. with all the good running cars out to-day like the Bachmann silver series, I don't do many of these conversions anymore. may I suggest the use of a conversion car as an interim solution. take one of your cars, and do the conversion to a knuckle coupler on one end only, leaving the original coupler on the other end. this way you can run your older cars with the ones already converted.
Appreciate your adding your thoughts, although some unecessarily replicated what has already been said.
I do not find 36" wheels to cause any problems, in fact, I find that using them in instances where it is applicable to the handling weight of the car, gives the car the correct height. Using too small or too big a diameter wheel can effect the height of the couplers.
I like the tip on the styrenne for a shim. I have used Evergreen sheets of .010 diameter (and the Kadee shims of that size as well as .015s) for this purpose as well.
Intermountain and P2K wheelsets are also nickel silver in color.
I have a truck tunning tool from MICRO MARK. Very handy, but not always necessary to automatically tune a truck, many times, the new wheelsets roll quite freely. I found Kadee wheelsets roll very well in Accurail trucks w/o extra work on the truck, but they do not roll as well in Athearn trucks. The Intermountain roll well in each as does the P2Ks.
I never found the ABS plastic trucks to be very good and frankly have found the plastic friction pin set up to be poorer in perfomance compared to a metal screw against plastic in the bolster hole. It is very easy using 2 methods to make a set up that excepts a screw using either metal nuts or 2 types of Evergreen styrenne tubing (got that one from YampaBob). Also, it is difficult to get many of these ABS plastic trucks to be 1 hole, w/o a lot of work.
The pennies are the way to go, using white or tacky glue to hold them down and together.
It does take time, but it can be fun and rewarding. But I do like Silver Series cars.
I think Jeff means transition car :D
In case you missed it in my other post Jeff, you and your family have a Happy Thanksgiving!
Kadee make washers specifically designed to raise car bodies in order to bring too low body mounted couplers up to the correct hight.
They also make off set knuckles for the same purpose though I usually avoid them on freight cars and use them on locomotives as raising or lowering a coupler on a loco chassis is difficult. Of course, these days, models are much more accurate than they were years ago so I've never used a whole package of offset knuckles since I purchase then 20 plus years ago. :)
As for using 36 wheels under freight cars? My practice is to use 33 inch wheels all the time. I model 1958 so smaller and or larger wheels were not used under freight cars, or at least under the cars I model. I find putting 36" wheels under freight cars just to raise the body makes the car look somehow "odd" when compared to cars it may be coupled to. I've tried it and that was my feeling. But you guys know I'm very fussy. YMMV.
For couplers that are too high? That's what shims made from Evergreen strips are for. Glued to the bottom of the car and then the coupler box attached to the car through the shim(s) with a screw.
Cheers
Roger T.
Roger, you already had your Thanksgiving so it is too late for me to wish you a Happy Thanksgiving I am afraid.
Yes Kadee certainly does. But did you know that Mr. Banner once posted here, how to make ones similar, using a hole punch and drill and a couple of blocks of wood, from Evergreen sheets?
Given your model year, I can certainly understand your use of 33" wheels strictly and how 36" wheels may look silly on a boxcar from 1958. I of course are no where near the railroad history expert you and Jeff are, but as the carrying capacity of cars went up over time and trucks went from 70 ton to 100 ton, did not many of the cars also increase their wheel size from 33" to 36"?
you are correct that on the real ones the wheel size was increased to deal with the added capacity. but most model cars were designed for the 33" wheels, and the increase in diameter of the 36" wheels does sometimes cause problems. two examples that come to mind are the old McKean 100 ton hoppers, and the roundhouse 26' ore gondolas. on the hoppers, I had to trim away part of the end bracing, and on the roundhouse cars I had to use kadee washers on the bolsters to raise the car height, then use overset shank couplers to compensate for the increased height.
but happy turkey day to you jb, and everybody else on the forum.
Thank you.
I will likely be spending part of the time digging out. You as well? I think it is a small miracle I still even have power at this point.
I will keep that in mind and yes, see your point. It was probably easiset for most manufactures to produce cars with 33" wheels and not have to go back and forth with varying wheel diameters. I have Roundhouse boxcars but none of the hoppers you mentioned. The Accurail 3 bay covered hopper I just assemebed, was a "new" enough car, it would have had 36" wheels, so that is what I put on it, in place of the stock 33", and the coupler ht was bang on. The cars you are listing, when were they supposed to be "made", for example 50s, 60s 70s? And what ton trucks in the real world, were they supposed to have?
Quote from: jbrock27 on November 26, 2014, 10:43:56 PM
Thank you.
I will likely be spending part of the time digging out. You as well? I think it is a small miracle I still even have power at this point.
I will keep that in mind and yes, see your point. It was probably easiset for most manufactures to produce cars with 33" wheels and not have to go back and forth with varying wheel diameters. I have Roundhouse boxcars but none of the hoppers you mentioned. The Accurail 3 bay covered hopper I just assemebed, was a "new" enough car, it would have had 36" wheels, so that is what I put on it, in place of the stock 33", and the coupler ht was bang on. The cars you are listing, when were they supposed to be "made", for example 50s, 60s 70s? And what ton trucks in the real world, were they supposed to have?
It is my understanding, subject to correction, that 100 ton cars will have 36" wheels but as they are outside my era and area of interest, I suggest you check before quoting me. :)
Happy Thanksgiving to all the USA posters.
Roger T.
Yes, I do believe for the most part that follows suit. But I don't think it is always a "given". I came across this chart which I go by that I don't have reason to doubt:
33in up to 77t
36in 78-100t
38in above 100t
1) 70 ton trucks w/ 33" wheels
2) 100 ton trucks w/ 33" wheels
3) 100 ton trucks w/36" wheels
4) 125 ton trucks w/ 38" wheels
1) 140,000 to 150,000 load weight
2) 165,000 to 175,000 load weight
3) 190,000 to 205,000 load weight
4) 220,000 to 230,000 load weight
28" wheels on most tri-level autoracks. 38" wheels are common to newer articulated double stack cars, the cars are labeled 125T, they're also used on Flexi-flo covered hopper cars.
This is why I was mentioning carrying (load) weight before.
J. Brock;
It would be my intention never to promote a name brand on this site other than Bachmann. if it has been done, then you will note that I mention that said brand is MY personal choice. I would consider it to be very poor taste to imply a brand name here willie-nillie; especially as Bachmann has gone through the pains to make this site available.
In this case, I am stating MY preference of one product over another-period!
Just for the record, I:
1; consider Bachmann products, particularly their locomotives, to be top of the line. As a builder of kits and scratch-building, I do not usually buy an R_T_R product. Just my preference on order to enjoy this hobby my way.
2; I have never said any coupler brand trumps over any other one. It is your jing; hence your choice. I personally prefer Kadee wheel/truck/coupler products. Only my choice. Dig?
Rich C.
To all concerned;
I generally use 33" wheels (again, my preference is Kadee) on my pre-1950s freight cars; and 36" on passenger cars, regardless of vintage... Kdee makes sets representing chilled wheels (cooling fins on back of wheel), which I use on the older freight cars, and passenger cars.
As I have previously stated, be vey stringent ( in this case, fussy) with the wheel/truck/suspension business; very stringent! As I had previously stated, this-as well as good track-work, BTW-will pay off in large dividends.
There are a number of hi-quality truck frames out there. Delrin is a good choice, as the composition will lend itself to reduced friction in the bearing surfaces.
My "MO" is to remove the trucks, clear out the inner surfaces with the tool for this purpose, and a shot of graphite product.
Use metal wheels
check for distorted units by placing truck assembly on a granite block specifically used for this purpose-my recommendation.
use either an NMRA gauge, or the Kadee coupler gauge.
use shims if needed.
Bachmann makes a notably good frame.
I have also tried any variety of Tichy trucks; and like the ones with the nylon bearing insert.
Rich C.
Quote from: jbrock27 on November 26, 2014, 10:43:56 PM
Thank you.
I will likely be spending part of the time digging out. You as well? I think it is a small miracle I still even have power at this point.
I will keep that in mind and yes, see your point. It was probably easiset for most manufactures to produce cars with 33" wheels and not have to go back and forth with varying wheel diameters. I have Roundhouse boxcars but none of the hoppers you mentioned. The Accurail 3 bay covered hopper I just assemebed, was a "new" enough car, it would have had 36" wheels, so that is what I put on it, in place of the stock 33", and the coupler ht was bang on. The cars you are listing, when were they supposed to be "made", for example 50s, 60s 70s? And what ton trucks in the real world, were they supposed to have?
being just west of the mountains, we barely got any snow, and what we did get quickly melted. 2 weeks ago when I went to erie it was a different story. they had 12" up there, and for some reason didn't salt the roads even though it was 30 degrees.
as for the cars I referred to, both were 1980s era kits. the McKean was a standard Greenville 100 ton coal hopper, which would have had 36" wheels. the roundhouse car was similar to the pennsy ore jennies, which I believe also had 36" wheels.
Lucked out Chicagoland area got a little snow but is mainly COLD . Snow was very wet and froze where not salted & plowed . Road surfaces were for the most part clear except for some minor drifting . Spending Thanks giving home was celebrating with family yesterday . Regarding wheel size : I would have thought that 33"dia. wheels would have been standard for freight cars with the possible exception for express boxcars that would have been for high priority freight . Was this the practice proir to the 1970's ? John 2.
Rich, yea, I dig it man, but you seem to be responding in a manner which makes it seem like you feel you have been accused of something. No one is doing that. I was trying to get a handle Staff Sargent, on whether your truck of choice was a delrin one or a metal one, bc on this thread you appear to promote using a delrin one, on other occasions as you and I have both pointed out, you appear to prefer a metal one. I never asked you about couplers, locomotives or cars; that's all of your own volition. I hope you did not get worked up over this, bc that certainly was not the intention of my question to you, as you appear to have gotten somewhat huffy over things. It is also my understanding you like Tichy car kits? I hope you had a nice Thanksgiving.
Jeff thank for your response. So the cars themselves were supposed be examples of those riding the rails in the '80s? Makes sense about the amount of snow-ERIE is a hop, skip and a jump from BUFFALO.
JH2, thank you for participating. You and Jeff were both lucky regarding snow.
JBrock;
Hi. No, I wasn't angry or anything. It is easy in a one-dimensional setting such as we have here, to be misconstrued. I know, as well as respect Bachmann's policies , so I try to be particularly careful in that area. Also, in just posting, I try to be careful what I write so not to offend anyone.
My personal preference has always been sprung trucks/metal frame; considering not too many mfgrs make sprung arch-bar trucks, which I do use; which, in this instance, Kadee produces. I also am partial to redheads... I also use delrin equalized trucks, if the detail is there. Once you set them up, as in honing out the bearing seats, etc; they are good trucks. They can be rather finicky at times-but so aren't sprung trucks. Kadee's on-site technical info is really good, and readily available. Bachmann, et al, is primarily in business of selling cars and locomotives; it is understandable that a company wouldn't want to spread themselves too thin; too much diversity can be a good recipe for problems.
I have derived great satisfaction with Tichy kits, as well as Steve Funaro's line of resin kits, Bar Mills, South River, etc. You see, building stuff like kits-specially good quality kits, whether they are buildings, rolling stock, etc; totally appeals to me. In sharing my feelings, I just don't like the idea of stepping on someone's toes.
OK, now that I have created yet another ill-written farrago, I will get a shower, breakfast, and set up the ply for radii-Hey-that rhymes...
Rich C.
I gotcha (understand) Rich. Good stuff. Glad you are not mad, that was not what I was looking for, just info. I don't believe you have ever addressed anything to me that I found offensive, for the record. I do think that sometimes when were are posting in a manner that trys not to offend, we may also inadvertently hide truthful or honest info that would actually benefit someone.
I prefer brunettes.
You don't use the truck tuner on the metal trucks do you? I have read that will wear out the tuner.
jb
t100 ton hoppers came about in the early 1960s, and by the late 1980s those and the pennsy h39s (70 ton cars) were about all we saw here. the 100ton cars became the standard hopper on both conrail and chessie/csx. the most common ones around here were the Bethlehem cars Bachmann makes, but there were also the greenvilles that McKean made, as well as others including cars built by chessie system themselves, on both chessie and conrail. on conrail they ran until after the merger, ns purged their fleet in favour of new cars, but csx appears to have rebuilt theirs and many are still in service.
the pennsy g38 and g39 class jennies were built in the eary 1960s, and ran until the 1990s. the demise of the steel industry severely limited their usefulness, and to-day iron ore to what mills remain in the area is handled in standard hoppers.bowser makes accurate models of these cars, but in the 1980s, the roundhouse models were the closest thing we had. those would be similar to the Bachmann ore cars, but came in both high and low side varieties,
as for the snow, yes we dodged it, but then Pittsburgh is somewhat sheltered by mountainsfrom anything off the atlantic, and too far from the lake to get the lake effect storms which recently hit erie and buffalo. I90, which runs along the lake, has been repeatedly closed by weather conditions this month. it's going to be a looooooong winter.....
Thank you for info Jeff.
I agree, I think it is going to be as well, even though I recall reading in September that it was expected to be a mild winter, saving a lot of people on fuel costs. Been using the chainsaw around the yard.
Over Thanksgiving, watched the movie "Million Dollar Arm" about the two Indians that were signed by the PIRATES to pitch, even though they had never played baseball before-great movie!
J Brock;
Ref the truck tuner. Not on metal trucks; have generally found there not to be a need to ream or clean them. I do, however, give the delrin trucks the once over. Glad you didn't get the snow. Here in Ct, we usually get some pretty significant storms during the hibernial (don't go out, don't date, etc; just play with trains. The jaguar XJS snoozes soundly in the garage, to be disturbed only when I start it up and play "Vito and the Vroom-Vrooms".)
I am getting started laying out those radii blanks. Looks good; this guy is on top of his game! Gonna be very little waste.
Rich C.
Glad you didn't get the snow.
I don't know how you arrived at this Rich ??? But I am glad your incline project is going well.
J Brock; on youtube.
RIch C.
Meaning you posted there? Super. What am I (we) looking under Rich to see the work?
Oh, I am sorry, J Brock. I went on You-tube and just typed in "making radius curves in HO" and it came up. It is a silent tutorial, but extremely informative. Having the tools with which to do this with, I jumped at the chance! I will try to get more done this week, as I am going under the old blade Monday. Had broken my right humorous about three months ago, and it is not doing what it is supposed to do. Oh, lucky me...
Mick Jagger was right...It really is a drag to get old.
RIch C.
That's what I hear every mother say Rich. Sorry about the wing. Best of luck on Monday and speedy recovery!