Hello,
I have a Bachmann "Jingle Bells Express" set and added track and the graduated piers. But it seems the train can't climb the incline with all the cars.
What incline can my train climb? How do I judge what inclines I can setup with trains I may have?
thanks
Bill
The 0-6-0 is a fairly light locomotive and won't be able to pull much up any incline.
However, you can add weight. I put lead in the sand and steam domes. Also, I remove the smoke unit and fill the plastic cavity with lead. This greatly improves the pulling power. I can pull three or four fully weighted box cars up a 3% grade with no problem. Doesn't sound like much, but this is a switch engine and wasn't intended to pull up long grades.
Regards,
Jonathan
Hi Jonathan,
thanks for the information.
Are there any model steam engines that are better at climbing inclines?
thanks
Bill
Humor me if you will,
Measure the length of the incline from where it begins to the highest point in the rise.
Then measure the distance from the surface of the layout to the bottom of the track at the highest point in the incline.
What are those two dimensions?
I have a roundhouse old time 2-8-0 which will pull about 12 cars up a 4% grade. this locomotive is smaller than the 0-6-0 you have, but has more drive wheels and is much heavier. I don't believe they make them anymore, but you may be able to find one on ebay.
I pulled the weights out of my rolling stock on a recommendation from someone on this forum a few years ago. If you do a good job laying track, they won't derail or wobble. It worked for me after I re-laid my track. I don't know how many cars you can do this with or if the curve radius matters. I pull 7 cars with my 2-6-0 that came with the original Jingle bells set without adding weight to the loco. Anyway, my simple Christmas track has min curve radius of 24" and max grade of ~4%. I also clean and dry the rails regularly and I don't use the smoker....they gum everything up. Now the only thing that stops or derails it is the cat. Haven't figured that one out and I'm not allowed to squirt Tabasco sauce in the house.
For my bigger layout in the basement, I use the heavier locos and leave the weights in the rolling stock....and the cats aren't allowed in!
Good luck
Bill
removing weight from your cars is not a good idea. most cars are too light as it is.
Quote from: jward on December 19, 2014, 11:56:23 PM
removing weight from your cars is not a good idea. most cars are too light as it is.
Agreed, 100%.
Cheers
Roger T.
wol-
You will do much better in the long run if you run your trains within NMRA standards. That means careful attention to track and wheel gauge, rolling stock clearances, transition curves, moderate grades, electrical integrity, precise coupler adjustments and adherence to correct weight for your rolling stock. I believe that you can get more light cars up grades than you can weighted cars but I'm guessing you have to be very careful with your speed to do so. You can run your trains a little faster, maybe closer to prototype speeds, if you double head your locos or make the excessive four percent a little more shallow.
-- D
Most of my equipment has or is being planned on having-lead bird-shot poured into them. I use an un-lubricated "condo" so that the load tends to "snuggle" down to the lowest point it can, and still be "self-contained".. This has worked for me through the years-and has also made the druggist very happy.
Locomotives I am a bit more by the book-but still run on the heavier side-or as much as possible without causing problems. Grades are by strict standards, as is the rest of my track-work (or was on the last layout).
I have found [that if] you follow NMRA guidelines, you should minimize any hassles with track-work, grades, etc.
Rich C.
Quote from: Doneldon on December 20, 2014, 04:19:24 PM
wol-
You will do much better in the long run if you run your trains within NMRA standards. That means careful attention to track and wheel gauge, rolling stock clearances, transition curves, moderate grades, electrical integrity, precise coupler adjustments and adherence to correct weight for your rolling stock. I believe that you can get more light cars up grades than you can weighted cars but I'm guessing you have to be very careful with your speed to do so. You can run your trains a little faster, maybe closer to prototype speeds, if you double head your locos or make the excessive four percent a little more shallow.
-- D
Adhering to NMRA recommended weights for cars isn't as important as the other stuff (I basically just ignore that particular recommendation). Good RP-25 metal wheels and metal couplers at the correct height are more important in my experience. I have a coal drag that currently stands at 65 cars. It's a mix of Bachmann, Athearn, Accurail, and other stuff. All the cars have metal wheels (mix of Walthers, Bachmann, and occasional Kadee wheels as well), and Kadee couplers (all Standard head, as I have found these to be less prone to uncouple on uneven track). Even though virtually all are underweight, they roll and track very well, and the train performs almost perfectly on my club's Helix track, even though the train extends almost two full turns around the outside track of that Helix, and despite the uneven grade and mediocre track work.
Another thing that can help is to run engines that use traction tires, or if your engine doesn't have these, there is something called Bullfrog Snot which can be very effective. It is a liquid rubber compound that can be applied to an engine's drive wheels. Once it has cured, it will improve your traction by quite a bit. It will eventually wear off, however, and will need periodic reapplication. It also by necessity prevents electrical contact in the treated wheel, so you should only treat one or two sets of wheels. As an example, I added 2.5 oz of weight in the firebox and applied Bullfrog Snot to the rear driver pair of the front and rear engines of my two EM-1s, and now either one of them can take fifty of my coal cars up the Helix that I mentioned, unassisted. Two other members of my club also have EM-1s, and they were rather impressed with the extra power that my engines have.
As far as the Bachmann 14-piece graduated pylon set is concerned, if you space each pylon at the joint of a 9" track segment, I think it makes something like a 6% grade. That's Shay country right there. Even if you do what I did and use two sets of pylons to ease the grade, it's still in the neighborhood of 4%.
One thing my model railway will never have is traction tires. Period.
They wear out and cause wobbling.
They cause wobbling before they even wear out.
After 15 to 20 years replacements are hard to get.
They limit power pick up as the wheel they are attached to cannot pick up power.
If the engine stalls unnoticed on a grade, such as inside a helix, the wheels cannot spin due to the traction tire and this causes motor burnout.
To avoid traction tires, I make sure my grades are reasonable, I try for a 2% maximum.
I make sure all my locomotives are weighted so they can pull whatever train is expected of them up the steepest grade they will encounter enroute. This is currently 20 cars + caboose for mainline freights that are steam hauled by a single locomotive. Locomotives cleared for 20 cars are my through freight engines, 4-8-2s, light and heavy and 2-10-2s. If a type of engine isn't cleared make the grade with 20 freight cars, the 2-8-0s, Russian 2-10-0 or 4-6-2s, then the train either doubles the hill or a helper is provided. Yes, in Canada, it was common to see 4-6-2s on freight trains.
All my diesel powered trains currently are hauled by two powered diesels so 20 cars is not an issue. And similar rules are in place for passenger trains.
Applying tonnage ratings to locomotives, both steam and diesel is prototypical and makes prototypical operation more interesting.
In my not so humble opinion, traction tires should be banned. I don't care how good a model locomotive looks, if it has to have traction tires it means it's poorly designed (Not heavy enough) so I won't buy it.
Of course, as usual, YMMV.
Cheers
Roger T.
interesting, is2k.....you are running 65 car trains of underweight cars through a helix? what is the radius? how do you keep those cars from popping off the track when the slack runs in going downgrade?
F4FPilot, I happen to agree with a lot of the things you do and agree that while I add weight to just about any car I work on, I agree that it is not always necessary to meet the NMRA standard; in other words, a little less is not the end of the world.
But I agree with Roger regarding traction tires. Also, not a fan of bullfrog snot. I think if you have to use those 2 things to operate they way you want, you are better off doing 1 of 2 things: revise what you are doing or use different locos.
@jward I have rarely had a problem with my trains jumping off the track going downhill, even when I come flying into the helix at the top, and must slow down to enter the yard at the bottom. In fact, I can't recall ever having my cars pop off from all the slack bunching up. The outside track on the helix is a 30" radius, the inside is about a 27", and the grade varies from 2-4% (well, 0-4% technically, they put flat sections every quarter turn). But it's an open helix, so we can keep an eye on what's going on inside it. And then again, there's a couple of cars that go in the tail end of the train that aren't quite as free-rolling as the rest, so that probably helps a bit.
@jbrock27 I like my steamers to be able to haul like their prototypes. That means traction tires and BFS, since most companies don't make their steamers anywhere near heavy enough to do the job without them. In fact it annoys me that some of my engines can't do that, namely my Bachmann 2-8-4s, even with extra weight and BFS. A Nickel Plate Berkshire on level track could manage over 120 cars unassisted, but my Bachmanns don't even come close, even with extra weight and BFS. I doubt even my MTH Alleghenies or my BLI Y6Bs (both types feature full die-cast metal construction) could handle prototype-sized trains without traction tires. My other engines, which have plastic boilers, certainly can't. And these are top of the line engines, or at least as top as you can get without going brass.
I like running heavy trains using steam power. That's not about to change. Occasionally I use diesels for variety, but mostly I use heavy steam.
@rogertra I haven't had any of those problems on my traction-tire-equipped engines, although I haven't had any of my engines long enough to worry about them rotting. They all run smoothly (the BFS can get lumpy during application, but I'm getting better at avoiding that), and they all have motors powerful enough to spin the drivers when the engine stalls regardless of whether it has traction tires or not. And when you have anywhere from 7-12 axles wired for electrical pick-up on the engine and tender, losing one or two axles to traction tires or BFS isn't a huge deal. As far as weighing down the engines, there's only so much space under those boiler shells, and it's often not enough for my needs. And besides, even my die-cast metal Alleghenies and Y6Bs have traction tires, even though they each weigh over two pounds without their tenders. If that isn't heavy enough for you... ???
As for banning traction tires entirely, you're perfectly welcome to not use them on your layout, but others, myself included, don't share your opinion.
It certainly is a free country where you can do what you wish with your layout. At least the USA is; don't know about CANADA ::)
Hey Bill, did they scare you off!
Asking a simple question here always goes awry.
jbrock, you sure it's still free here?
Hi! No! Not at all scared off!
Love all the responses and debate!
Learning alot!!!!!
thanks everyone! :)
Jerry, try not to get so worried about things there is no need to worry about and just chill, man. It's all good. No need to put yourself in the role of policeman. Just let what happens, happen and for things to take their course.
But yes, free will, free market, free to speak up, free to keep quiet, free to save, free to spend; so yea, pretty free, still ;)
You're always welcome BG!
Quote from: jbrock27 on January 01, 2015, 08:36:30 PM
Jerry, try not to get so worried about things there is no need to worry about and just chill, man. It's all good. No need to put yourself in the role of policeman. Just let what happens, happen and for things to take their course.
But yes, free will, free market, free to speak up, free to keep quiet, free to save, free to spend; so yea, pretty free, still ;)
You're always welcome BG!
Not trying to be the police at all! So far the only two that had any good input was jonathan and james in fl..
Bill still has bot been given the best info yet and that was asked by james in fl.
Grades have a lot to do with his problem as I see it and assume james saw it also.
Graduated pier's should not IMO be used with a train set, especially with an 0-6-0 set.
I would bet the pier set takes it over a 4% grade. Yes weight does help on inclines but will only hurt more if he is trying to go up the side of the Statue of Liberty.
Bill to get an attainable incline, I usually go 1/2 inch every 9 inch track piece up to about 3 inches in a 100 inch span which comes close to a 3% grade.
Your little 0-6-0 can do it with a little weight suggested by jonathan and a little track designing which was james in fl quest to find out.
My little 0-6-0 runs my grades fine pulling rolling stock, yours can too!
Sorry to upset the other posters but all that info was good but nothing you guy's suggested is gonna get him over the Statue of Liberty without knocking her legs off ;D.
This my friends I have learned from YALL!
Quote from: James in FL on December 16, 2014, 12:08:33 AM
Humor me if you will,
Measure the length of the incline from where it begins to the highest point in the rise.
Then measure the distance from the surface of the layout to the bottom of the track at the highest point in the incline.
What are those two dimensions?
James I never answered your fundamental question!
The length to the highest rise is about 52 inches. The highest rise is 3 1/2 inches.
Please let me know your thoughts.
thanks!!
Bill
Bill,
That is what I am saying. You probably have about a 7% grade! No real locomotive could ever do that alone, much less a model of it.
Jerry
lol!
Yes I see that now! pretty ridiculous!
I am wondering now, in a standard beginners "figure 8" loop set with the graduated piers, what is the grade there? It seems to me that it would still be over the 3 to 4% grade.
thanks
Bill
(3.5:" rise/52" run)*100 = 6.7% grade.
The Bachmann 18pc pier set gives a grade of approximately 3.1%, the Atlas set, which as more pieces giving a longer run, is roughly 2.6%. Of course the Atlas set doesn't work very well with EZ-Track.
If you have the room, one way to ease the grade for EZ-Track is to use two sets of Bachmann piers. Measure the height difference between adjacent piers in a set. Find another use for the tallest piers in one set, then make shims half that thickness of the height difference and put them under the remaining piers of that set. Starting from the tallest regular pier, alternate regular (R) and shimmed (S) piers using the standard spacing. So you end up with: Top of Grade R-S-R-S-R-S-R Bottom of Grade until your level again.
Just remember you run is going to increase quite a bit as the grade comes down.
Len
Quote from: Jerrys HO on January 02, 2015, 05:54:11 AM
...So far the only two that had any good input was jonathan and james in fl...other posters but all that info was good but nothing...I disagree and would like to know what possessed you to say this?
I can attest, the Atlas set works very well, with traditional sectional track, not EZ track, as
Len mentioned.
Quote from: Jerrys HO on January 02, 2015, 05:54:11 AM
Bill to get an attainable incline, I usually go 1/2 inch every 9 inch track piece
Jerry-
A half-inch rise per nine inch track section is 5.5 inches per 100 inches which is 5.5%. That is an exceedingly
steep grade for a model railroad. Prototype railroads, other than
some narrow gauge lines, would never
even consider it.
-- D
jb I will entertain you just once as I really don't feel like getting into anything more.
First of all did you read Bill's question? Here it is again in case you missed it...
(Hello,
I have a Bachmann "Jingle Bells Express" set and added track and the graduated piers. But it seems the train can't climb the incline with all the cars.
What incline can my train climb? How do I judge what inclines I can setup with trains I may have?
thanks
Bill)
1- Graduated piers in a train set should have caught most of you guy's attention!
2- What INCLINE can my TRAIN CLIMB? Hell nobody but James in Fl. caught that and me if you want to include me as I did not respond.
3- HOW do I judge INCLINES? No one has given him the formula to figure incline percentages. That was one (not the only) of the first things I was informed when building my layout.
Now if you would have paid MORE attention than wanting to start another unnecessary quest to argue with someone, You would have caught my response from the other posters. Here it is in case you missed this one too....
(Sorry to upset the other posters but all that info was good but nothing you guy's suggested is gonna get him over the Statue of Liberty without knocking her legs off Grin.)
How all of this ruffled your feathers I DON'T KNOW, as I was not putting anyone down just trying to get the correct answer for Bill's problem.
I don't care how much weight or bullfrog snot or traction tires and what ever anyone else can think of, IT STILL WILL NOT GET UP THE 7% GRADE HE HAS BUILT.
The thing I am amazed at is I actually caught this ??? and then James posted his question so I waited and followed this thread.
That is my answer to you MR.Brock, I hope you are OK with it cause it's the only answer you will get. Now let's get over it and enjoy what we have as friends. By the way replace the battery.
Mr. Bill, You have gotten many good answers that will help your engines get up a grade that is feasible but if it is to steep it will never happen with all you do to the engine. This is why real railroads wind around the mountains and not just go straight over them (which would be shorter).
Jerry
Quote from: Doneldon on January 02, 2015, 07:26:02 PM
Quote from: Jerrys HO on January 02, 2015, 05:54:11 AM
Bill to get an attainable incline, I usually go 1/2 inch every 9 inch track piece
Jerry-
A half-inch rise per nine inch track section is 5.5 inches per 100 inches which is 5.5%. That is an exceedingly
steep grade for a model railroad. Prototype railroads, other than some narrow gauge lines, would never
even consider it.
-- D
Sorry D I realize that now that you brought it to my attention. It's been awhile since I built my grades and Jeff W. posted a number, maybe 1/4 in? Not really sure any more as the last inclines I did after tearing up the middle section I built with Woodland Scenics risers.
Jerry
Jerry,
I gave him the grade based on the measurements provided, the grade formula, and common pier set grades in post #23 above. Here it is again:
Quote(3.5:" rise/52" run)*100 = 6.7% grade.
The Bachmann 18pc pier set gives a grade of approximately 3.1%, the Atlas set, which as more pieces giving a longer run, is roughly 2.6%. Of course the Atlas set doesn't work very well with EZ-Track.
Based on the "run" number, I suspect he's using the 16 piece pier set that's better being used as a "trestle" to cross a valley than for up and over layouts. The 18 piece set's better for that, even better with the shim modified two set configuration I described.
Len
Len
Len,
I know you did after I commented about everyone missing the OP's question.
My testimony did not and was mot meant to include you. The info you provided was great and I had meant to throw you a bone for the way you explained how to use two sets of piers and leave out the taller ones, nicely put.
I actually guessed it at 7% as I am not great at math in the head but the wife is.
Uh, Jerry? Why I am I being singled out for your ire ??? As Pachino said in Scarface, "you need to take it easy man."
You already told me to replace the battery and I said no, bc it is half the cost of the item and not worth it. I was looking for a little more trouble shooting advice from an expert. But thank you for the suggestion again, anyway.
Singled out? no you were just the only one that took my post to heart and call me out.
Damn I did it anyway 2nd answer post.
You're awful worked up. I did not call you out. And no, I did not "take it to heart". There would have to be a reason for me to feel bad about something for me to do that. I just told you to relax and not get all worked up like you are now. Are you happier now that in your view, more than just 2 people have helped so far?
Bill,
That is another option other than the graduated piers, foam risers made by Woodland Scenics. A little pricey but perfect for grades. Check out the ones Saved 1 used on his...
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,28641.0.html
Jerry
Why buy risers?
If you have used a solid benchwork top, like a 4 x 8 (shudder) then using a jigsaw simply cut a grade the width of your road bed and elevate that.
BTW, the "shudder" after 4 x 8 is simply because I think they're awful but that's my opinion. I haven't used a 4 x 8 since my dad built my first train set when I was ten years old. Within two years, at most, that 4 x 8 was cut up and became an around three walls of my bedroom railway. Terminal station, through junction station ending in a staging yard with a very small branch terminal in front of the sky drop hiding the staging yard.
But, as usual, YMMV. :-)
Cheers
Roger T.
Ya know Roger, you haven't been very helpful here...
Quote from: jbrock27 on January 02, 2015, 08:39:12 PM
Ya know Roger, you haven't been very helpful here...
Nothing wrong with the suggestion to use the jig saw, that's what I used to do, way back when.
OK, guilty about the 4 x 8 but..........
Cheers
Roger T.
No of course nothing wrong at all.
Sarcasm, as in, I was being sarcastic.
Perhaps this will help to "redeem" myself. I have had this saved to "Favorites" (RichG would be so proud :'()
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,11880.0.html
Quote from: jbrock27 on January 02, 2015, 09:03:49 PM
No of course nothing wrong at all.
Sarcasm, as in, I was being sarcastic.
No problemo, as you know, I have a thick skin. :)
I'm also cheap, which is why I'd never buy risers. :)
Cheers
Roger T.
I knew we had things in common; I am cheap as well. (I have said that here before, haven't I? ;))
it seems to me roger is actually onto something here. not a dig at you roger, so let me explain further.
a lot of this thread has been a discussion on using pier sets to construct grades, with the general consensus that the Bachmann set results in a grade that is way too steep. I agree with this btw. roger has stated he would never buy "risers" which I take to include both the foam incline sets from woodland scenic as well as the various pier sets on the market. which begs the question, why not make your own? anybody with a saw and tape measure can make their own, to whatever grade they want using blocks of wood cut to fit. or another way would be to buy 1/4" moulding strips and cut them to the width of the ez track. you can stack the cut pieces to whatever height you wish.
consider that using those 1/4" strips, you can easily make an approximately 3% grade, by stacking them under the track joints. 3% works out to about 1/4" rise per track section. also keep in mind that you need about 3" of clearance for a train to pass beneath an overhead track. thus, for a 3% grade over and under type layout, you will need 12 full track sections of run to make the grade.
all in all, making your own risers or piers can save you a lot of money, and allow you the flexibility to make the grades what you want them to be.
I will have to run some tests on my layout, but I believe the 0-6-0 should be able to pull 3-4 cars up a 3% grade.
Jeff I will agree with everything you said except for the part,
"a lot of this thread has been a discussion on using pier sets to construct grades".
Most of this discussion was on weight (which is needed) and traction tires (can't believe those were ever made, glad I never had the chance to own one).
Jeff if you remember you helped me with this a while back, this is why I chimed in. Grades play a big part in HO if you plan on using them.
I have the cookie cutter design (rogert's suggestion that I missed)on the mountain side of the layout, but when I redone the center section (not finished do to other circumstances),I opted for the risers for convenience and I needed to keep the sturdiness to the framing. Yes I could have supported it better to work that way but the underneath holds other stuff and it probably would have interfered.
Hey Doneldon, there's my mistake as Jeff showed, it's a 1/4 not a 1/2 as I posted.
Gosh I hope with all this useful information Bill has a better understanding of how all of this info plays together as one happy railroad and skips all the sarcasm remarks.
Jerry
...skips all the sarcasm remarks.
Jerry
Like yours Mr. Statue of Liberty? You need to get over yourself.
I think the riser/pier set discussion got started because of this line in the original post back in December by Bill, "I have a Bachmann "Jingle Bells Express" set and added track and the graduated piers."
Bill can confirm one way or the other, if he's still paying attention, but my suspicion is he was building a temporary Christmas layout. Not something permanent that might offer better options than using a pier set.
Len
I think this is a solid point. And it would be a shame to have made all this mountain out of a mole hill business over a temp layout ::)
Hi Len!
Yes! you are right this is a temporary Christmas layout.......
Let give everyone a visual that I hope everyone will find humorous.
My fiancé and I were watching "Polar Express".
The scene came on where the train does a VERY STEEP and TIGHT spiral up a mountain.
My fiancé asked, why cant you do that?!
.....animated movies are one thing....real life I suspect is slightly different!!! :)
Thanks all!!!!!!!
Your welcome BG :). You certainly don't seem upset.
QuoteThe scene came on where the train does a VERY STEEP and TIGHT spiral up a mountain.
Getting a 2-8-4 Berkshire pulling 8 - 12 (it varies through the movie) heavyweight cars up a very steep and tight spiral only happens when they belong to people who can also get reindeer to fly! ;D
Len
Quote from: billgiannelli on January 03, 2015, 07:24:19 AM
Hi Len!
Yes! you are right this is a temporary Christmas layout.......
Let give everyone a visual that I hope everyone will find humorous.
My fiancé and I were watching "Polar Express".
The scene came on where the train does a VERY STEEP and TIGHT spiral up a mountain.
My fiancé asked, why cant you do that?!
.....animated movies are one thing....real life I suspect is slightly different!!! :)
Thanks all!!!!!!!
tell here it's the same reason you can't get your train to fishtail across the ice by flipping the direction lever of your controller..... :D ;D