Bachmann Online Forum

Discussion Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: Atlantic Central on October 22, 2007, 11:50:23 AM

Title: Radio Control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on October 22, 2007, 11:50:23 AM
As many of you know, I have often supported the idea that control systems for model trains are not one size fits all and that one should carefully consider their needs and wants before investing in expensive/complex control systems.

In addition to my continuing interest in the latest forms of computerized block control, I am now exploreing a new option - radio control.

This was prompted by seeing some others effectively using the Aristo Craft Train Engineer on their HO layouts. The following is the test results I have compiled and posted on the Aristo message board where I have been consulting with other TE users, mostly in large scale.

As promised, here are my test results on the trackside TE with HO scale. This is a bit long, and I will be posting more, but this seemed like  more than enough for now. Questions and comments are welcomed.

For the last several weeks I have been conducting tests with the Aristo Craft Train Engineer, CRE-55470, to determine how best these throttles could be applied to HO scale layouts, in particular my layout that is currently in a rebuilding phase.

First, let me just mention that I am an experienced modeler of 35-40 years and also have a strong electrical and electronics background. And, for a number of reasons I have rejected DCC as not being suitable for my needs on my new layout. This is not a criticism of DCC, for some layouts/modelers it is the perfect answer. But control systems for model trains should weigh all factors, complexity, desired features, style of operation, layout size, cost, maintenance, just to mention a few.

The two factors that ruled out DCC for me are decoder installation in a large fleet of motive power, and complex operational sequences with many small buttons on many/most of the throttles. Other negative factors include programming locos and complex wiring infrastructure for a large layout - not the magical two wires touted in the early days of DCC. I have always felt that for all that wiring infrastructure, I could “build in” more features with other systems, not have deal with features I don't need/want, and avoid the need for decoders.

Rigid thinking by many established in the hobby and active in the model press has lead to some assumptions by many that are not necessarily true. I have paid great attention over the years to different control system approaches and found that many alternative systems work quite well, again depending on your goals.

My Train Engineer Tests:

Locomotive performance - I tested a wide range of brands and types of both steam and diesel locos on both the linear and PWC settings. I was very pleased with the slow speed performance on both settings. The PWC setting does provide smoother start up at slower speeds and did allow slower steady speed operation. The PWC setting also greatly enhanced the performance of all constant lighting circuits. With the PWC setting, the headlights almost always cam on at full brightness before the loco moved. No over heating or damage was experienced on the PWC setting.

One anomaly that was found, locos with inexpensive built in decoders (like the Bachmann GE 70 tonner) did not perform well on either setting. Locos of this type are not great performers on analog anyway, but with TE they are worse.

I did not test the TE with any analog sound equipped locos (like the new BLI Blueline) and I tested only one DCC/DC sound equipped loco (BLI N&W class A), since it is the only DCC/DC sound equipped loco I own. The Class A actually preformed about the same as it does on any regular DC power pack, which is really only mediocre in my opinion because of the high starting voltage of those sound decoders in analog mode. It was slightly better on the analog setting, but differences where very slight. The basic sound system worked normally, but I was completely unable to access the horn and bell functions. So, if the Class A is typical, the TE, even in PWC mode, will run/work with high quality dual mode sound decoders. The next step would be to test some of the accessory sound controllers with the TE for whistle/bell control. Since I do not like or use sound in HO so for me it is not an issue.

Section Control w/multiple receivers - Back in the dark ages of model trains, early attempts to run more than one train on a connected system of track often used a simple system of simply dividing the layout into different sections (not really blocks, think zones or groups of blocks) and putting a separate power supply on each section. For more detail on this and a modern look at it, go to www.aglasshalffull.org/article-multi-throttle.html and read more.

So the question was, will the TE work in this system, what are the problems, pit falls, etc. This would require a train to move from receiver to receiver. What would be the operational and electrical implications of this and will it work? The advantage of such a system would be VERY simple layout wiring.

The answer is yes and no. On the linear setting it was easily possible to go from receiver to receiver with no problems. Simple diode circuits where wired up with pilot lights for easy reference as to the direction setting of the receivers, and bulb intensity helped with matching speed settings. Also, newer TE receivers with the fixed response to the direction button are much better for this type of operation.

On PWC, the story is not as good. It seems that no matter what, the motors in the locos want to add the two sets of pluses together during the time the loco is picking up from both receivers, causing a very unpleasant surge in speed. No amount of voltage matching or system phasing had any improving effect, including the risky use of a common power supply.

So, with PWC, moving from one receiver to another is not a practical approach. And, while it worked in the linear mode, matching the speeds was somewhat harder than I had hoped. So I have ruled out simple section control with the TE.

Modified Cab Control - Many years ago (1960’s & 70’s) a modeler by the name of Ed Ravenscroft combined section control, cab control and power routing trackage (sometimes called X sections) to create a versatile form of cab control that required 1/3 or fewer block toggles than cab control and allowed the layout to be operated in several different ways, namely in a local/walk around fashion or from a main “dispatchers” panel. His system is outlined in a series of articles that appeared in several issues of Model Railroader during 1974.

While TE will not work with Ed’s exact wiring approach, the implementation of his system or a conventional cab control system should be no problem. It will require switching both wires of the cab power (no common rail wiring or “grounded” systems), and rotary switches that short out other positions should be avoided, but there are endless simple solutions to these issues.

In such an application the TE will have the advantage of being wireless and any transmitter can instantly become any free cab (by using the ten channels as the cab assignments). Several simple systems of local cab assignment instantly come to mind, such as coded plugs or push button controlled relays that could be controlled at various locations around the layout rather than one fixed control panel.

Power Supplies/short circuits - At HO scale (or N scale) current levels the TE needs no more than a 3 amp fuse and a good 3 amp/13.8 volt regulated power supply. I found those sold for CB radio operation to be quite effective. Separate power supplies for each receiver and the 3 amp fusing made it seemingly impossible to damage a receiver or a loco. And while I did not try to damage anything, I did have several fuse blowing events. I do intend to install the cooling fans even at these lower current levels. A cool electron is a happy electron!

User Friendly? - I found the TE to be very user friendly. This is an important factor to me. I easily became able to operate the transmitter without looking at it and was able to quickly get a good feel for any loco and control it with great precision for switching, coupling, etc. This was especially true on the PWC setting.

Features - I had the opportunity to test both the older and newer transmitters. The older one was the first series of the 10 channel type. The direction recall was unresponsive at times but was obviously useful for the applications I was testing. The speed recall was useless at the voltages/speeds of HO scale. At most speeds of normal operation little or no change and only one, two or sometimes three lights lit, giving no useful indication of speed. The on/off and all stop features of the new transmitter are much more useful.

I also had both older and newer receivers. The older ones responded to any direction button in a flip flop manner. Not good for small scales. I was quite pleased to find the new ones have returned to the absolute left/right design that was, from what I understand, on the original TE. This is very desirable for small scales no matter what type of control system is used, blocks, sections, zones, etc. I understand that some in the large scale crowd prefer the flip/flop arrangement - this just goes to show the big differences between running trains on “bench work” vs. in the back yard. 

Conclusion - Given the other wireless choices for model train control, their costs and complexity, the TE offers tremendous value for the price. Combined with other conventional wiring systems I see great potential to rival the operational features of DCC and maybe even exceeding them in some ways. Lower cost, no loco modifications (or expensive decode equipped locos) and good wireless reliability are all pluses in my book. I am now planning the exact details of how I will implement the TE.

It is obvious that good design and constant improvement has made the TE a very effective control system. The publishing of more info on its use should help expand its use. Much to my amazement (or maybe not) there is little to nothing published about using the TE in smaller scales - maybe I can help change that.

More latter as I decide exactly how to impliment my control system.

Sheldon 

       
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: scottychaos on October 22, 2007, 03:06:55 PM
"Radio control" already exists for the smaller scales..
its called "Wireless DCC".

I use the Aristocraft Train Engineer for my G-gauge trains.
and DCC for On2..so I am familiar with both.

I dont see where the T.E. has any advantage over DCC for smaller scales.
actually, DCC is much better for the smaller scales, because you can control much more than just the trains with DCC, which you cant do with the Aristo train engineer..and you can do "consists" with DCC (multiple powered engines on the same train) which you CANT do with the Aristo train engineer..

QuoteThe two factors that ruled out DCC for me are decoder installation in a large fleet of motive power

you have to buy and install a seperate decoder (reciever) for each locomotive for the T.E. too..which according to the Aristocraft website are $39 each..which is the same, or MORE expensive, than most DCC decoders..so no advantage there.

Quoteand complex operational sequences with many small buttons on many/most of the throttles.

the train engineer has lots of buttons too..no advantage there either.

Your idea can work fine for a "small scale" layout if you only want to run a single locomotive on each train..(you cant run any consists..multiple powered engines on the same train) and if you have a small layout with simple wiring..
the T.E. would be good for steam-era layouts only..with only one steam engine per train..its useless for Diesels, because you cant run multiple powered units..

And if you have a small layout with simple wiring, DCC is just as easy to set up...not seeing any advantage there either.

good idea, but sorry..DCC blows it out of the water.

the only "maybe" advantage I can see for the T.E. is that the signal to control the loco is not sent through the track, it is sent through the air...but is that really a big deal?  the power is still sent through the track, so you still have to keep clean track with both systems!

DCC - need to keep your track clean for the signal and the power
T.E. - need to keep your track clean for the power only, but not the signal.

either way, you need to clean your track! ;) so that makes no actual advantage for the T.E.

I can see no clear advantages that the T.E. has over DCC..
and I can see many advantages that DCC has over the T.E.
anything you want to do with the TE can be done just as easily with DCC..
and DCC can do a lot more.

For those who want to read more on the Aristocraft Train Engineer,
check here:
http://www.aristocraft.com/catalog/crest/trainengineer/whitepaper/index.html#HO TRAIN ENGINEER CRE-55000 (http://www.aristocraft.com/catalog/crest/trainengineer/whitepaper/index.html#HO%20TRAIN%20ENGINEER%20CRE-55000)

sure, the T.E. might have its place, and if it works for you thats great..
but IMO its a very limited system compared to DCC.

Scot
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Mike on October 22, 2007, 03:12:28 PM
Sheldon- A very informative bunch of comments! For HO, do you envision using blocks, block selector switches, DPDT switches for TE source selection, and a couple of TE's, inorder to run multiple trains... or do you plan on one-at-a-time operation? I know our local HO club used to use two TE's on separate tracks... but now it's one track with DCC and one with TE and blocks. We are currently trying to locate 10 pole rotary switches at a reasonable price. With your often "beyond the box" approach, I am anxious to hear more of your thoughts. As a good Bach-man reader, I ANTICIPATE!- Mike S.
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on October 22, 2007, 04:17:18 PM
Scot,

Obvoiusly you did not read my intire post, I understand it is long and detailed.

I fully understand all the features and benifits of DCC. Most of its features I have no interest in. I want headlights to just come on and go off on their own, I don't use sound so I don't need to ring bells or blow whistles.

I am not takling about the HO Train Engineer with the decoders. I am talking about the trackside TE, the one with fast, slow, left, right and stop to control the train (5 buttons) (have you looked at a Digitrax or NEC throttle - a LOT more than a TE).

Consisting, a totally unnecessary feature even for most double heading and multi unit diesel operation. Almost every train I run is pulled by more than one powered unit without all that button pushing and code entering.

Mike,

I am still working out how blocks will be selected, but it will be simple to operate - possibly push buttons and pilot lights at vaious locations around the layout. I have to run now but will get back to you on this.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on October 22, 2007, 05:03:31 PM
OK Mike, here is some more detail.

I am building a large layout with a double track continious main line about 400-500' long. Yes, there will be blocks and yes, more than one train will be running a time.

I invision about 8 TE throttles, maybe more. At leat four will be asignable to the mainline blocks. The blocks may be grouped into "zones", with a zone trypically being 3 signal blocks.

Cab asignment may be done at the zone level to minimize switching.

Picture this - a linear walk around layout where east is always to your right and west always to your left. As you walk along, when you come to turnouts there would be a small "tower" panel with the turnout controls. When you come to the begining/end of a zone, there would be a panel for cab asignments. It might have 5 small lighted pushbuttons for each zone. One for each of four cabs and one to clear that zone from being connected to any cab.

This is done with a very simple relay circuit  and allows for there to be a set of pushbuttons at each end of every zone and as well as a set at a master "CTC" panel if desired. The pilot lights would indicate at all locations which cab is asigned to which zone.

And by asigning the TE's to different channels on the same frequency, any free transmitter can be any cab, and any transmitter can jump from cab to cab. This would be most useful for display running during open houses. Or when operating alone, you could put a train on the main (or one in each direction in my case), work the yard and jump around to each cab asignment to run all three and do very little "block" or "zone" switching, but rather simply jump from channel to channel. Only when a train needed to leave or enter its "route" would you need to use the cab asignment pushbuttons.

I use a similar set up for turnouts so they to can be controlled at more than one location and their position is reported via LED pilot lights.

So as your walk around with your train (just like DCC) and throw turnouts by whatever system (just like DCC) you would ocasionally push a button to advance your throttle to the zone. Other track power routing would be done by turnout position (known for decades as "X" sections), eliminating the need for any small blocks.

I will most likely use some sort of detection and signaling, but that is not needed for this to work or for this example.

For more understanding of how block control can be simplified by zones and X sections you should find the MR articles by Ed Ravenscroft on MLZ control that I refered to in the orginal post. With proper design and panning, you can actually wire a cab control layout with only 1/4 to 1/3 the block toggles of the conventional way and actually increase operational flexibilty.

Mike - you do not want to use rotary switches with TE. Most rotary switches, especially with that many positions, short out as they go from postion to position. That is a dangerous situation with the TE. For two TE's DPDT toggles will work. For more than two cabs, some sort of switching that completely disconnects the first one before connectiong the second is needed.

This has also gotten quite long, I will wait for your questions/comments.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: scottychaos on October 22, 2007, 06:18:56 PM
Sheldon,
now im totally lost!  :o

where are the receivers?
If you have no receivers in the locos themselves, you must be using the track receiver then? this guy?

http://www.aristocraft.com/catalog/crest/trainengineer/images/CRE-55471.GIF

but that works by changing the voltage to the track..controlling only one train at a time...so im confused as to how you are running multiple trains with this system..

clearly im missing something!  :(
Im used to the TE when controlling G gauge trains..my club uses them on its G gauge modules...but all one "transmitter and reciever" set can do is increase and decrease the voltage to the track...all locomotives on that track will increase or decrease in speed at the same time, there is no individual control.

what am I missing?

Scot
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on October 22, 2007, 07:29:45 PM
Scot,

Yes, that is the receiver I am using, one for each "cab".

I don't mean to be rude, but if you are not familar with the term "cab control" or "block control" than this discussion is above your knowledge.

The track is electricly divided into sections known as blocks, the power from cab "A" is transfered from block to block as the train moves around the layout. Leaving other blocks free to be powered by cab "B", "C", etc., each one controling its train/locomotive.

The real question is finding the easiest way to handle those power asignments/transfers - the TE makes it easier. If you did not understand my explaination to Mike, than you still have a lot to learn about wiring. A lot you should learn even if you choose to use DDC.

It is in many ways not all that different from the power districts on a large DCC layout.

One more note about consisting. ANY two, three, four or more locos that run at close to the same speed can be "consisted" on regular DC as long as the power supply can provide enough amps. True, DCC lets you ajust loco speed response to allow consisting of locos with widely different speed curves but in my case thats not needed.

I suggest you carefully reread my posts and buy a good book on old fashioned model train wiring if you really have any interest in understanding this.

Also, if you read my post carefully, I did not bash DCC in fact I said for some modelers goals it is perfect! Not everyone wants to run their layout/trains the same way. DCC, while very nice in some ways, is not the end all, be all of model train control.

Just ask Mike Wolf at MTH trains, he thinks his sysytem is way better.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: scottychaos on October 22, 2007, 08:33:05 PM
Quote from: Atlantic Central on October 22, 2007, 07:29:45 PM

I don't mean to be rude, but if you are not familar with the term "cab control" or "block control" than this discussion is above your knowledge.

If you did not understand my explaination to Mike, than you still have a lot to learn about wiring. A lot you should learn even if you choose to use DDC.

I suggest you carefully reread my posts and buy a good book on old fashioned model train wiring if you really have any interest in understanding this.


of course you mean to be rude..because you are.
If you didnt mean to be, you wouldnt be,
but since you clearly were, you clearly are..

so 8 sets of transmitters and receivers?
at $182 each, thats $1,546.
each of the 8 receiver needs to be wired into the layout, with multiple blocks..

Vs. a basic DCC set at $150, plus 8 decoders at $20 each,
for a total of $310..
2 wires to the layout.

way more expensive, way more complicated, much less functionality..
sign me up! (http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)

you dont need to respond, then you wont have to be rude again.

I understand your idea fully..I just happen to think its pointless.

but thats just my opinion..if you dont agree my feelings wont be hurt.
thats what makes this hobby great! you are free to do whatever you like..
thanks for the amusing afternoon!  ;D
carry on then.. (http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)

Scot
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: SteamGene on October 22, 2007, 08:39:18 PM
I think both of your are making diesels of yourselves.
I remember reading of  a guy who, when visiting a model railroad, checked for homosote.  If the layout ran on homosote, it was good; if it did not, it was bad.
As Shakespeare said,
"There is more in heaven and earth than is known in your philosphy, Horatio."
Gene
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Jim Banner on October 22, 2007, 09:42:03 PM
Having used radio throttles with conventional block control back in the late 60's and early 70's, I can say that it did have some advantages.  One was walk around, wireless throttles, which is the ONLY way to go, then or now.  At least it is the only way to go once your layout (a) is being run by more than one operator and (b) cannot be operated from one fixed place because of size or visibility.

The second advantage was walk around block switching.  That is, the block toggles could be placed along the facia near where the blocks physically existed instead of on a central panel.  This eliminated the necessity of a "tower man" to switch power between blocks as the operators followed their trains.  It also much simplified the block wiring.  The two CAB outputs were bussed around the layout with just 4 wires while the block leads were typically only a few inches long.  Eight CABS would require a 16 wire bus, still a lot less wire than a central panel.  Plus they would require an DP8T rotary instead of the DPDT toggle I used.  X-sections could still be used, although I found it difficult for new operators to understand the difference between a CAB selector switch and a route selector switch.

The biggest disadvantage of this system was usually expressed as "who has my %$#@% block!"  Or as Digitrax puts it, we were still running our track, not our trains.

Some of Sheldon's description sounds more like dispatcher control than the engineer control we normally think of when we talk about block control.  Dispatcher control was big in the 40's and 50's for club layouts.  It required a group of operators, each of whom ran a section of the layout.  Each section typically controlled one "town" along with all it sidings, yards, etc.   I associate it with Lionel 0-gauge, but I am sure it was used in other scales.  To hand a train off from one operator to another operator was usually done with a short transfer section which could be switched to either operator's section, much like an X-section.  Sheldon's problem with handing off a train from one receiver to the next can probably be similarly solved.
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on October 22, 2007, 09:59:41 PM
scot,

My 150 locos X $30 decoder = $4500.00

Easy DCC wireless starter set = $487.00

6 boosters w/power supply = 6 x $234.00 = $1404.00

7 additional wireless throtttles 7 x $219.00 = $1533.00

Total for same layout coverage/operation w/DCC = $7924.00


Also Scot, what wireless DCC system is only $150? Wireless IS the point, I agree with that, but you can't buy one wireless handheld for $150 let alone the rest of the DCC system.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Jim Banner on October 22, 2007, 11:30:07 PM
A cost of $7924 for DCC seemed a tad high.  For half of that, you could do DCC in style using Digitrax.

But $1546 for radio seemed also seemed a bit high too (and not just because of the error in multiplication.)  There is no need to use 10 amp receivers unless each train is going to have 20 or so locomotives.  More in line with the needs of H0 are the 2 amp units at $83.  That would be $66.  Plus of course 8 power supplies.  But they could be 2 amp 15 volt wall wart units at say $10 each.  Total $744, not including rotary switches.

I sympathize with the large number of decoders needed.  Even low cost decoders would cost about $2325 when you need 150 of them.  When faced with a similar problem (on a smaller scale) I still chose DCC and am still installing decoders as I can afford them.  At the rate I am going, I should be finished in about 2012, assuming I can resist the urge to buy any more locomotives.  I already have decoders in twice as many locomotives as  my railroad could possibly justify, but hey, that's model railroading!

Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on October 23, 2007, 07:29:49 AM
Jim,

I am using the more advanced TE to get the 10 frequency X 10 channel capablity of the newest unit, and the more advanced TE has a pulse width modulation output that provides superior speed control and great constant lighting effects. The anvanced TE allows movement from channel to channel at the touch of a button and the receivers obvoiusly provide memory so one person can operate multiple trains or any available transmitter will be able to be any free cab at the touch of a button. AND, the transmitters don't have 30 tiny buttons nor do they require two and three step sequences during normal operations.

My operationing goal is "fexibility". I don't want to be locked into only running the railroad one way. Even though I belong to a local group, I am a bit of a Lone Wolf as the expression goes. I want to be able to operate with a crew or by myself. I also want both "operation" and display running, and detection and signaling. I am NOT sold on "walk around" operation for EVERY aspect of operating a large layout like I am building. I (and several in our local group) also like CTC operation with a "dispatcher", which requires a central panel for mainline turnouts/routes and is better with detection.

I do agree, that when I want to "walk around" wireless is a necessity. In this case easy to use, 100 foot range, has not lost a signal yet in my tests, necessity.

My only disapointment with computerized block control to this point is the lack of any wireless throttle developement by those supplying hardware/software.

Yes I am working on what you discribed, not the operator per town, but the block controls spread around the layout.

If I where to consider DCC, Easy DCC is the only DCC system I would consider based on the ergonomics of the wireless throttles. While the Digitrax UT4 is tolerable, I find their full feature throttle totally unuseable. The "turn it forever" speed control, the computer icon display, the small size of the buttons - all not acceptable.

Everytime we run trains on a layout with Digitrax, somebodies wireless throttle "loooses" its train. Maybe they need to buy more batteries, but if so those things eat them like candy.

I have friends with layouts the size I am building (500' double track mainline, large yard, stagging, etc.). They have all exceeded the $4,000-$5,000 range with Digitrax - power district boosters and circuit breakers being the one cost not really figured in in the begining.

Sheldon




Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on October 23, 2007, 07:33:28 AM
Gene,

I'm not trying to convert Scot, why is he trying to "save" me?

I don't believe the individual or the group is served by letting Johnny think 2+2=5 just to protect his falsely generated self esteem.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on October 23, 2007, 08:03:52 AM
Jim, a few more thoughts,

I am now working on a block selection system that would lock out others from "taking my block" or at least clearly indicate to all that someone else already has the block, and would allow blocks to be assigned/dropped from multiple locations - localy and on a "CTC" panel. My turnouts are allready that way.

I also feel that most modelers over the years have made blocks too short. Mainline running blocks should be 3 to 5 times the length of a train. I have never had the bad experiance you related about X sections. All my x sections have been controlled by their respective turnout controls, not any seperate "route" controls.

I have also decided that the semiautomatic  and colision avoidance features possible with compertized block control are not as valueable as first thought. This is partly due to a change in the layout design. the old plan had lots of hidden track, the new one has almost no hidden track.

I may look at a programable controller for the block asignment logic.

The loco performance of the TE is really outstanding, as good or better than any decoder/dcc throttle I have seen. I am using a 3 AMP, 13.8 volt, regulated power supply with each TE receiver and have fused them down accordingly. I spent $20 each on the power supplies. And the advanced TE's are only $150 street price. That's $1360 for eight throttles before block wiring.

I won't use rotary switches, don't want the shorting of other circuits as they are positioned. And after saving all that decoder money I can invest in a controller or some relays for a more sofisticated block asignment system.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on October 24, 2007, 09:31:13 AM
Regarding the "cost" of DCC, I spoke with a fellow modeler who uses Digitrax. His layout, which I helped design, has the following stats:

fills a 30' x 60 room
400' double track main line
aprox. 1200' of track total
stagging yard for 25 trains
engine terminal with turntable/roundhouse
freight yard for 6-8 thru trains + 10 track storage
branch line
more than 100 turnouts
more than 60 loco sets (an F7-ABA being one loco set, etc, so it is easily over 100 powered units)

His DCC specs, he uses Digitrax

8 power districts w/power supplies and circuit protection
1 auto reverse unit
stationary decoders for all 100+ turnouts
5 radio throttles (friends bring theirs as well)

He does not have any signaling or computer interface for dispatching, yet!

He indicated that he has spent well into the figure I listed above ($7900.00)!

The only people that don't want you to think it costs this much are the ones who have a vested interest in getting you to use it.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: SteveJ on October 24, 2007, 01:41:49 PM
This is a very enjoyable string for a new railroad modeller like myself.  This hobby is served well by Sheldon with his experience and approach to wireless control for his railroad.  This type of thought and determination is very enriching to me.

In my short time 'thinking', 'constructing' and 'thinking' again I realize that simplification is a good mantra when making things work and the pocket book.  I hope you let us follow your development in this subject as it develops. 

Like Mike I anticipate...
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on October 24, 2007, 04:00:35 PM
SteveJ,

Thank you, I will keep posting as the details are worked out. It appears that the computerized block control may be possible with the TE and/or low cost solid state switching may be available to keep the cost of the manual system really low.

Research and testing continues as does construction of layout modules.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Jim Banner on October 24, 2007, 11:05:06 PM
Sheldon, nobody is disputing your friend's estimate of what he has spent on Digitrax.  But I suspect he spend quite a bit of that back when prices were considerably higher than today.  Why do I say that?  Firstly, a layout of that size is rarely built overnight.  Secondly, 8 power districts each with a booster and power supply is old technology from the days before electronic circuit breakers.  At least, I suspect your friend does not run 80 to 100 locomotives at a time and does not need all that power.

I can remember a time when installing Digitrax was expensive.  The first one I installed, the decoders were over $100 each and the command station, with one throttle, left just enough out of a $1000 dollar bill to buy a bottle of coke (we didn't have cans in Saskatchewan in those days.)  At those prices, I wouldn't twitch if you told me your friend spent over $20,000 on Digitrax.

But I came up with a much lower price based on today's prices at Tony's and based on a single 8 amp booster driving up to 8 double headed trains through a multi-channel electronic circuit breaker.  I believe you were talking about up to six trains/twelve locomotives which certainly does not require 40 amps to run.

I noticed that your friend included signals in his price.  I did not.  Did you include signals in your costs of computer block control?  I suspect they may be cheaper with computer control, at least, the software to control them is cheaper than using the hardware approach.  I have no idea what it would cost today to do a layout with  computer block control using commercial equipment.  I suspect it is much more attractive than when it was either industrial input/output cards or build it yourself.

One thing I am wondering about with using TE radio control.  The outputs of the receivers are basically high level outputs, 0 to 12 volts backed up by enough power to run your trains.  This suggests to me high level switching between CABs which is still often done with relays.  On my own layout, 32 blocks times 8 relays per block would have been 256 relays.  Reliable relays at the time I was doing computer block control ran about $10 each.  For that reason, I went to low level switching and used CMOS gates at pennies a piece.  I was wondering how the system you are using connects CABs to blocks.  Or does it use some different scheme?

It is not just new railroaders who are enjoying this thread.  Some of us who have been in model railroading since steam was king enjoy it too. 
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on October 25, 2007, 08:20:22 AM
Jim,

My friend does NOT have signals, he may or maynot do that latter. And the layout has been constructed within the last 18 months. Many of us from the group helped build all the benchwork in only about 6 weeks last year, he did all the track and wiring himself, now a select crew has begun the scenery! He buys everything from Tony's

I do understand the difference in power distribution and did not discuss why he chose so many power districts as apposed to the circuit breakers, but, most of his locos have sound and are on the layout all the time. He and others have had problems with the high current draw of these sound locos. Some are on dead tracks, many are not. Personally, I would have all those things on "dead" tracks until I was ready to use them. I will agree that it does not have to be done the way he did it.

One last thing about DCC, or I should say Digitrax, I personally REALLY dislike their throttles. While I have "learned" to use them, I still dislike them. Not user friendly in my opinion.

I also understand that using the TE with the computerized block control will require power switching rather than the low level switching available with the the throttle cards from Oak Tree Systems, but they also have a 3 amp solid state relay card that is way less expensive than relays, 8 relays per card $35.

My original computerized block control estimates partly included signals because with Oak Tree Systems the detection is built in his throttle card and signal logic is built in the software. Extra output cards and the signals would be the only expense. Even without cbc, I will most likely go to him for signaling do to his intigrated low cost approach. He is doing lots of signal systems for DCC layouts these days!

At this point, since the new layout configuration does not have the large amounts of hidden track as the one orginally planned with the computerized block control, I'm not sure it is needed. The walk around block selection seems more than adequate. especially with larger blocks and multiple locations for asignment. I like the idea of push buttons and pilot lights at the beginning and end of eack block as well as possibly repeated on a dispacters panel.

When you are walking with the train you are throwing the turnouts anyway, asigning the power in this ways seems really easy, dare I say almost intuitive. And, as I said before, I think there is a tendancy to make blocks too small. I think that in most cases you can take what most would consider three blocks and make that a zone and do cab assignments at that level. Maybe still break it up for signaling, but assign the cabs at the zone level.

Next challenge - get the price of that circuity as low as possible.

I don't want to sound too cheap here, I spend thousands evey year on trains, but its just a hobby, and less money spent on one aspect of it means more for some other aspect. And we all know it has never been an inexpensive hobby.

As always your thoughts and experiance are greatly appreciated.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on October 30, 2007, 07:49:50 AM
Update:

Continued testing has revealed the following:

As I am sure any of you with TE experiance already know, transmitters on the same freq. lock each out out while transmitting, but ones on different freq. do not. This will make it more practical to use a different freq for each cab. As currently designed the layout will require 8-10 cabs, this works out great!

This will also reserve the channels for use with accessory receivers if I work anything out with them.

The Bachmann locos with the inexpensive imbedded DCC decoders ran very nicely once the decoders where bypassed and the capacitors where removed from the motors. Headlights will have to be rewired. Rewiring two locos (or maybe a few more if I buy some Sharks) still beats installing decoders in 150.

The pushbutton cab assignment system is looking more and more like the best answer. Wiring will be moderately complex but equipment cost should be minimal with good shopping.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: jsmvmd on November 01, 2007, 09:01:08 AM
Dear Sheldon,

This is an intriguing post.  I had looked at TE years ago as a possible OS for my Aristo Roger's set, and had rejected it since I did not need a wireless throttle system.

Now, as you know, I will be getting a block wired HO layout 11 ft X 22 ft, and I have to choose a control system.  Until you posted here, I was set on DCC.  Now I am not too sure.

I will contact you after I have studied this and have learned to speak more on the subject of control systems.  As a neophyte, you can understand I cannot ask even the most rudimentary question. 

My son is at the local vo-tech studying electronics.  His instructor is an EE who builds all sorts of neat stuff, has his house wired for every kind of control system you could imagine (sort of like "Back to the Future" and "Flubber"), is cobbling up a go-kart from ATV and other components, etc.  A very neat guy who all the boys look up to.  Thus, I will talk to him about this and enjoin him as a local source.

Once I get a few things sorted out I will contact you.

Thank you and Best Wishes,

Jack
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on November 06, 2007, 09:00:01 AM
Update:

I have built a test version of my proposed push button cab selector using relays. Mr Hines (who taught me most of my electrical engineering) would be proud. It works exactly as planned.

I have also fitted the TE's with cooling fans, fused them down to 3 amps on both the input and output, and mounted them to their power supplies as a unit. Makes a nice package and will be easy to mount under the layout.

I am now looking into if the cab selector circuit can/should be solid state or just stay with relays. Quality relays of the type needed are now readily available on the surplus market at very low prices. Price alone may dictate relays since some have been found as low as $1.00 ea, previously a $10 item. That would make a $1200 investment only $120!!!!!!! But even the $1200 is only a fraction of the DCC decoder cost.

I continue testing different locos at different speeds and conditions. No new problems, with the previous imbeded decoder problem being the only thing so far.

There are a number of "warnings" out there about Pulse Widith Modulation overheating motors, but no problems yet. One competitor, who models in N scale, and sells a pulse width throttle, claims his is safer because it has rounded pulses, then he goes on to talk about running a switcher at switching speeds for 5 or 6 hours? I don't think I am up for any 5 hour operating sessions with the same loco. And my experiance is that HO is not N scale.

N scale is a world of its own with those small motors and tight fits. I point this out just to warn those in N scale that my tests do not include any N scale equipment and there may be different risks with N scale. I know at least one N scale modular group did use the TE a few years back and did develop a very sensitive overload circuit for their application. They did not publish any info on motor overheating but did say they used the Pulse Width setting most of the time.

Next I will be testing a few detection systems with the TE. The real test will be to see if a bais voltage for standing detection interferes with the TE, and/or which detection schemes work the best.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on November 11, 2007, 09:11:47 AM
Update:

I have found a few more locomotive anomalies, none of which is a big deal but I am reporting them just the same.

On pluse with control the Life Like Proto 2000 0-8-0 runs great but the directional headlights do not work. Both front and rear lights come on all the time regardless of direction. They work as designed on the linear setting. This is really not an issue since as a switcher having both lights on is actually more prototypical. Other Proto steam tested did not have this problem.

On linear control, the constant lighting circuit in the Athearn Genesis F units does not light until way after the loco is moving, but it works very well on pluse width control. so this too is a non issue.

As I continue these tests, I become even more comfortable with the bushbutton "fast-slow" method of operation. This was actually the one thing I was most skeptical about but now am most happy about. The smoothness of even fast stops and start is amazing. And, there is a simple but realistic feel to appling power in this way.

Sheldon

Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: jsmvmd on November 11, 2007, 07:38:37 PM
Dear Sheldon,

I can remember some anomalies similar to yours when I  tried to run the first Bachmann X-mas Annie on my Aristo 1.8 amp power pack with PWM.  It ran OK, but there might have been a few "glitches."  I also seem to remember that it was said (perhaps by TOC) not to run Bachmann LS on PWM.  Does that seem right?  Dave, please correct me if I mis-stated.

Thank you.

Best Wishes,

Jack
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on November 11, 2007, 08:27:00 PM
Jack,

I must admit I can't offer many thoughts on large scale. I know some have said some large scale brands/items do not like PWC, but I do not own any large scale and have no personal experiance with it.

The HO problems I have found are all with "circuit boards", not with the motors themselves, so they could all be corrected easily if need be.

And I am very happy with the TE performance and am moving ahead with using it for my layout.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: jsmvmd on November 12, 2007, 10:39:15 AM
Dear Sheldon,

I am quite intrigued with your comments, and am very interested with the TE for my application. Will be contacting you soon with details. All my stuff is Athern or Atlas or Proto, with a Bachmann switcher that was run with conventional power and block control. So it would seem this might be up my alley.

Best Wishes,

Jack
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on November 12, 2007, 01:22:11 PM
Jack,

You know how to reach me, and it will be a pleasure to assist you any way I can.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on November 23, 2007, 09:36:35 AM
Update,

As the testing continues the 3 AMP fusing has protected the TE receivers from several "errors". This is good to know. As suspected, common rail or common bus wiring should be avoided. While common rail does work with the TE if the whole train is within blocks controlled by one receiver, the passing of cars with metal trucks from a block controlled by one receiver to a block controlled by another causes the same speed surges as trying to pass a loco from one receiver to another. And, with common bus wiring and reversed polarity in such cases causes a short.

Completely isolating each block eliminates all these problems. With compete isolation metal wheels/trucks have no shorting effect because only one rail becomes "connected". this has the side benifit of eliminating any chance of gaps bridged by standing cars causing problems, a common problem in the old days of common rail DC.

Another side benifit is the ablity create automatic "dead" zones between blocks by staggering gaps. The staggered area will only be powered when both blocks are on the same cab.

The block selection circuit is fully refined to the fewest number of relays and the application of digital and/or solid state circuits is being explored. Availablity/cost of suitable relays may well be the controling factor. The block selection circuit will provide great flexibilty in operation since it will allow all three types of operation "walk around", "dispatcher" or "display" running for shows.

Having all three types of operation intergrated into the control system has always been a major goal. It seems the combination of the TE with the pushbutton block control will provide that at the lowest cost and easiest, most intuitive operation.

Sheldon



Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on November 29, 2007, 12:03:32 PM
Update,

Suitable componants for the relay based version of the block selector have been found at good prices, making any solid state approach the same or more costly and in some ways more complex.

The relay circuit has been refined to the simplest but most flexible circuit and will provide a number of possible options to the installer. These include dispatcher and local control with an unlimited number of local positions being possible, default startup settings if desired, emergancy stop, block over run protection, and panel priority and lockout controls.

The basic circuit is for a 4 cab system but can be stacked or daisy chained in several ways for more cabs.

Developement of a circuit board for the relays will begin soon and more products have been ordered for testing the TE with various detection circuits for signaling/train indication.

Serveral other modelers have expressed various levels of interest in the system and its application to various types of existing layouts is being explored.

Rubber ducky antennas have arrived from Aristo to replace the metal ones. Indoor range is more than adiquite with the rubber ducky. Some large scale modelers find them to limiting outdoors and Aristo is now supplying the telescoping metal ones with the TE, but can provide the rubber ducky for a small charge as a service part. As a future test, I may experiment with an even shorter rubber ducky.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on December 11, 2007, 01:28:38 PM
Update:

Several other modelers have expressed interest in the pushbutton block control system and the Train Engineer for there layouts. This should help with the already reasonable cost of production for the pushbutton block control.

Several improved X section circuits have been developed to take fuller advantage of the pushbutton block controller and the features of the TE.

These circuits will provide automatic asignment of short track sections through crossovers and large junctions and will provide automatic dead zones between blocks not asigned to the same cab - making it virtually impossible to overrun your cab and be in another cabs control.

Also, an X section arangement has been developed to provide walk around control of single track mainlines without any running ahead or doubling back to check block asignments or turnout positions at passing sidings. This too will have the automatic dead section feature.

So far the projected cost for my intire layout is less than two thirds of the estimated DCC decoder cost for the existing loco fleet of 150. This Estimate does not yet include signals or dection, but niether does any basic DCC system.

Detection and signaling tests are underway at this time - results to follow soon.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: jsmvmd on December 13, 2007, 12:27:42 PM
Dear Sheldon,

I have received the 3A power pack and Cre-55470.  Thanks a million for the tip.  If you don't mind, I have a few questions:

1.   Can I use rechargable batteries in the cab/throttle?  If so, which do you recommend?  Jim Banner several months ago had said something about choosing the proper mAh sizes for good duration.

2.   The three buttons on the bottom do not match the set's instructions for initial setup.  For example, the lower left button on my cab is the "on/off."  The center button is different, too.  Do you use them in the same manner as the instructions describe?

3.   I am building a 15 inches x 30 inches switching yard for the kids to play with until I receive my large layout.  I want to use a center X-section with Atlas code 100 rail and several #4 turnouts with switch motors.   Imagine it is like a European Z with two parallel center tracks which use 30 degree or similar crossing sections.  My question is do I have to worry about dead shorts?  Do I have to "block" wire this baby, and if so do I need DPDT or push button switches?

Thank you. 

Best Wishes & Merry Christmas to all!

Jack
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on December 13, 2007, 01:02:54 PM
Jack,

Rechargable batteries? Good question, I don't know but will send an E-mail to TATE at Aristo Craft and post that question on their board. My first reaction is no since most rechargable batteries are slightly lower in voltage than regular akaline batteries. I would imagine that regular batteries will last pretty long in this application, especially now that the transmitter has an on/off switch - so I don't know that rechargables would be any great advantage because the life of each charge is usually only half the life of regular batteries - could mean a lot more battery changing for a very small economic benifit. While I have not used mine for any really long periods yet, I have not had to replace any batteries since I began testing several months ago.

I know, they have updated the product without updating the pictures in the instructions, I was confused a little at first too. The programing does work exactly the same and the new/changed features are discribed in randomly placed added notes in the instructions. - I have offered to write a new instruction book for them, maybe they will take me up on the offer. If you have any trouble give me a call.

With Atlas components you should not have any shorts as long as you don't have a wye or reverse loop - so it can be all one block with one feed and all metal rail joiners. I'm not sure I understand the track layout, so if you still have questions fax me sketch to my same number you have and give me a call.

Block detectors arived today from Oak Tree Systems - test results soon!

Merry Christmas

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on December 13, 2007, 02:54:13 PM
Jack,

Answer on rechargeable batteries from Lewis Polk at Aristo - no warranty problem but he does not recommend them for the voltage/cycle life reasons I ststed above.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: jsmvmd on December 14, 2007, 06:58:41 AM
Dear Sheldon,

Gracias, con mucho gusto!

Best Wishes & Merry Christmas!

Jack
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on December 16, 2007, 03:07:41 PM
Update:

Two topics - train speed and detection for signals

Detection - I have tested the solid state detectors made by Oak Tree Systems. This is a solid state opti-isolator type detector. The detector worked fine with the TE with the loco moving - BUT, two problems where found that seem to have no satisfactory solution.

One - because the TE is a transistorized throttle, or just becuase of its internal circuitry, no effective bias current could be established to operate this type of detector at zero throttle voltage.

Two- The diodes that supply the detector with its signal lowered the track voltage by 1.5 volts. This is not considered acceptable with the power supply inuse since maximum train speeds are perfect at the normal max voltage without the diodes.

It is likely that all detectors of this type will suffer this problem with the TE.

Two other detector types will be tried, the time tested Twin-T and the inductive isolated ones from Dallee Electronics.

Train speed - as noted above, using the 13.8 volt power supply, the TE supplies a max voltage under load of 13.35. This seems to provide nearly perfect top speed for most modern HO models. This is considered important since it allows the fullest use of the speed range/steps built into the TE. And, while trains will seldom run at those speeds, having similar capability as the prototype seems most logical.

Example - test with Proto E-8

Allowed to reach max voltage/speed the loco was clocked at 1.5 actual feet per second which equals 88 scale miles per hour. The normal max speed for the prototype is 85 MPH. Tests with other locos where similar.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on December 17, 2007, 11:10:33 AM
Update on the last update!

After several hours of reading/thinking, and a few more tests the problems with the opti-isolator detector have been largely, but not completely, solved.

The additon of a 680 ohm resistor across the TE output has solved the problem of the bias current not working. Exact optimum values for the bias voltage resistor, dectection resistors and output resistors have yet to be established, but it does work!

The voltage drop is still a question - it could be compensated for partly by adjusting up the power supply, but the limit on that seems to be about 14.15 volts, still leaving us a little short of the desired track voltage.

This is where a circuit like the Twin-T may be a better detector choice. Even a diode shunted version of the Twin-T would only loose .75 volts, not 1.5. Building my own Twin-T detectors would also be the least expensive choice. Of the commerical ones on the market, Oak Tree is most reasonable, Dallee's inductive one is most expensive.

16 volt power supplies would fix it, BUT we already have the 13.8v ones, they perform well and the cost is lower than what I could build 16 volt ones for.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: jsmvmd on December 17, 2007, 12:01:20 PM
Dear Sheldon,

Good update!

Would MU consists of 2 or 3 diesel engines give a marginal voltage drop allowing you to still use the 13.8 V/3A power pack?

Perhaps you could provide a schematic if you build your opti-isolator detector?

Best Wishes & Merry Christmas!

Jack
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on December 17, 2007, 01:43:05 PM
Jack,

Multiple units do not produce any noticable voltage drop because the power suppy is regulated, in other words as amps increase, the power supply keeps the voltage constant up to its rating of 4 amps. I have already tested the TE and power supply with as many as 8 locos at one, no power problems, still had about 13.2 volts at 2 amps at full throttle.

BUT, the internal circuits of the TE uses/bleeds off about .5 volts and the detector diodes bleed of another 1.5 - too much. The power supply regulator does not know where the voltage is going so it cannot/will not compensate for these effects. It only knows it "sent it out" - not how it got used.

The detectors I might build would be the old Twin-T circuit which dates back to 1958, but with a few updates. It is a transistor circuit. Many consider it completely outdated, but I am of the opinion that things not broken need not be "fixed" (or replaced). One version of it also uses shunting diodes, but only one instead of two in the supply path at any given time, so the voltage drop is only .75. This, combined with bumping up the supply voltage to 14.10, would result in a max track votage of 12.85, only .5 volts lower than without the detectors.

The Twin-T can also be built without diodes but larger power transistors are needed. They have less voltage drop than the diodes and would result in almost no votage change. Sometimes old is better!

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: jsmvmd on December 17, 2007, 04:26:06 PM
Dear Sheldon,

I'll vouch for older is better!  Will fill you in if you would like, but it might be TMI!

I have two friends who are electronic whizzes who could help me with the construction if I go that route. 

My layout is conventional block wired with two cabs, so perhaps two TE's would suffice.  At this juncture I am not sure if I will use computer block control or not.  Possibly not since there will not be multiple operators, nor too many trains running at one time.  I surely want to know how your situation is panning out, and will be paying attention!!!

Best Wishes & Merry Christmas!

Jack
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: jsmvmd on December 18, 2007, 10:03:51 AM
Dear Sheldon,

My search for "Twin-T detectors" gave this link:

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~rdmurg/clinic/detectit.htm

I would be anxious to read your comments.  If you have a better link, would you please provide it?  Seems to have the stuff I need to build a circuit.

On another hand, the military provides lots of "sir kits," don't you think?

Our military friends are encouraged to comment!

Best Wishes & Merry Christmas!

Jack
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on December 18, 2007, 10:49:42 AM
Jack,

That's a good link. It's the most comprehensive one I've seen. Not meaning to be sarcastic, but I have all that info in those old fashioned things called books (in addition to a large library of books, I have complete sets of Model Railroader from about 1960 to now), so except to lookup some manufacturer info, I have not really searched the web. When I do find stuff on the web of value, my next action is to push "print". I know, I'm just old fashioned.

Actually, the Dallee product - www.dallee.com - is looking very favorable. I may order some today.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on December 18, 2007, 12:47:00 PM
Update:

I just got off the phone with the folks at Dallee, his detector system is the answer. It uses a high frequency bleeder current for detection when the throttle is off. That signal is isolated from the throttles. The detector is inductive so no voltage drop at all - all of this is well worth the slightly higher cost.

Items ordered for testing!

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: jsmvmd on December 18, 2007, 05:30:08 PM
Dear Sheldon,

Is that Dalee item: BASIC DETECTOR TRAK-DT ( Item #365) ?

Thanks and Best Wishes!

Jack
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on December 18, 2007, 08:19:37 PM
Jack,

Yes, and the companion "keep alive". Should arive in only a day or two since he is close to us both.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on December 19, 2007, 07:07:28 PM
Update:

Items from Dallee arrived today and tested. Their system works perfectly with the Train Engineer!!!!!!!!

The "Keep Alive" is very picky about source power so use the regulator that Dallee sells.

Detection with no power to track was reliable and consistant.

Exact formula for detection of rolling stock is the only remaining question, but since the Keep Alive is high frequency, the answer is most likely a capacitor. I tried one without even looking at the rating - it worked! I will call them tomorrow.

While slightly more expensive, they will be simple to install. The detectors have enough relay contacts built in for basic signaling, so factoring that in - if basic signaling is accepable - they are not really more expensive than other systems.

I'm happy - you may not hear much from me now - I can't wait to get this all built and running!

Sheldon



Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on December 20, 2007, 01:15:05 PM
Update:

Spoke again with Dallas at Dallee about rolling stock detection - yes a capatcitor, and maybe a resistor in series is the answer. I am still testing the values he sugested, but almost any rating of non polarized 50-100 volt cap seems to work with no problem!

This combination of the Train Engineer, Push Button block control and the Dallee detection/signaling products has all come together perfectly!

Almost all the goals desired from my orginal interest in computerized block control have been achieved with this system.

We will have:

walk around wireless throttles
simple train/block asignment
simple control panels
signaling and hidden train detection
walk around or central dispatch control
semi automatic colision avoidance

without:

computers
decoders
complex throttles with too many buttons
hard to read LCD screens
high track fault currents


The cost of both the throttle and signaling infrastructure will only be sightly more than the cost of basic decoders for my 150 locos!


Now its off to the garage to build some more benchwork modules!

Sheldon



Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Mike on December 20, 2007, 03:42:33 PM
Sheldon-
You sound like you have most of the plan figured. When you get a chance, it sure would be nice to get a summary... maybe even a schematic and/or photo or two of the total concept. I anxiously await each new post on the subject! Thanks for sharing.- Mike S.
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on December 20, 2007, 03:56:55 PM
Mike,

I already have a shematic drawing of the block controller and a short written explaination of the theory of operation. I will be documenting the other aspects as well. E-mail me directly and I will arrange to share this info with you.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on December 24, 2007, 11:17:51 AM
Update:

Signaling - Now that detection has been acomplished, I have begun to refresh my memory on the details of signaling, both prototype and model.

Nothing carved in stone yet, but the Dallee detectors have enough contacts for simple Automatic Block Signals (ABS) and the relays needed for the X sections at interlockings also have spare contacts. It appears that a simple but effective ABS w/interlocking system can be built with no additional electrical components beyond the wire and signals themselves.

This is a double sided issue. The up side is no additional equipment costs, the down side is old fashioned conventional wiring of lots of conductors. But, after reviewing several different prototype signal systems, there is a simple system used by a number of roads that can be adapted and keeps wiring to minimum, even for an old fashioned relay system - Maybe thats why those prototypes used it!

Since the Atlantic Central is freelanced, anything based on, or similar to prototype practice is acceptable - because - almost every railroad has/had their own signal system and signal rules. Often it was even different from one division to another on the same road. So on a freelanced road, who's say its "wrong". If it looks good/interesting and aids operators in running trains, its good.

When I complete the documentation of the control system and its application, I will make the schematics available to those interested for the cost of reproduction and postage.

Thanks to all who have followed the development of this project. 

On a related, but seperate note, The NMRA just announced the formation of a new Working Group to study/develope standards for a communication bus for layout control outside DCC. This will include provisions for train control (computerized block control and/or automatic control of trains, DCC or DC) as well as other layout features, signaling, turnout control, etc.. The article in the latest Scale Rails notes that current DCC useage is estimated at only 25% of active modelers and the need/desire for additional developement of both DCC and other forms of control is wide open. They also acknowledged the need for inprovements and refinements to DCC.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on December 28, 2007, 02:03:26 PM
Update:

The first batch of relays, bases and sample lighted pushbuttons arived yesterday.

A prototype of the controller is hooked up to part of the current layout and works well.

The circuit board is being designed.

The system drawings are getting some revisions and details added. Application notes and drawings are being developed.

And, on a seperate note - several "issues" with the redesign of the layout have been resolved - off to the garage to cut wood!

Sheldon



Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on January 16, 2008, 09:42:16 AM
Update:

The list of modelers interested in this system is growing - Drawings and doumentation will be completed soon for those of you who have requested or are interested in them.

My circuit board designer is just returning from his Christmas Holiday so that process will get back underway.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Mike on January 16, 2008, 12:35:00 PM
Thanks, Sheldon- Appreciate the update. I'm anticipating...- Mike S.
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: jsmvmd on January 16, 2008, 10:01:31 PM
Dear Sheldon & Mike,

I second that!  Anxiously awaiting further info.

Best Wishes!

Jack
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on January 28, 2008, 09:01:21 AM
Well,

I had to take a few weeks off from trains to do some "work" but things are still moving forward, even if slowly. Interest is growing and one other modeler has definately commited to rewiring his layout with the system.

Even though I personally am not interested in sound, at least not onboard sound, I do plan to obtain some Aristo accessory recievers and analog sound controllers and experiment with controlling sound features with the TE.

Additionally I am interested in controling layout based sound effects like bells/horns/whistles, so both will be explored.

Reverse loops are another area that will require some new thinking, or the return of some old thinking. There would be several ways to automate them, or, semi automate them. This will most likely be a personal choice for each layout, but I will explore the possibilities.

During the time since my last updates, I continue to run the test system several times a week, still trying different locos, no new problems found.

More to come soon,

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Mike on January 31, 2008, 07:56:58 PM
Sheldon- Copies arived today. I'm working on understanding what I'm looking at. You've obviously put a lot of thought and work into it! Our local group is building a layout with the two options of DCC and radio control... using older Aristo throttles. I'll show them this and we'll try to "noodle" it out. Thanks again for sharing.- Mike
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on January 31, 2008, 10:27:56 PM
Mike,

There will be much more info showing exactly how to apply the system to different track/layout configurations. the drawings are started but I have been very busy with "work".

I will e-mail you directly with some additional info about all of this.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on February 06, 2008, 09:00:11 PM
Well, just a brief update and a bump to the top for a few new people who have expressed some interest.

Most of  the components are on hand or on order and the cost for my layout has not even gotten close to what 150 decoders cost.

I will be demostrating the system to our local group in two weeks. Several have aready been over and seen it.

One is fully commited to installing it on his layout.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: jsmvmd on February 07, 2008, 10:31:35 AM
Dear Sheldon,

Make that 1.5!  After I solve some personal problems, I will be diving into this full bore!

To our other Friends,

Sheldon sent me the schematic, and it is beautifully done.  I do not understand circuits one whit, but with help from my son and his electronics teacher, I should prevail.

Best Wishes,

Jack
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on February 17, 2008, 10:03:04 AM
Update:

Bumped to the top for the benifit of Yampa Bob and any others following his latest thread.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Yampa Bob on February 17, 2008, 02:49:38 PM
Thanks Sheldon

I got lost about midway through the narration, probably will ask for schematics later.  At my age the brain overloads pretty fast. When you get it all perfected, we'll be seeing your book from Kalmbach.  Go for it.  Be sure to copyright all your manuscripts and schematics and overlay a huge watermark before disclosing them, guess you know that already.

Bob
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on February 19, 2008, 08:16:04 AM
Update:

Tonight our local group will be at my house for a demonstration of how the pushbutton block selector and the TE work together. I have the test prototype of the block selector, with two pushbutton stations and train detection set up on a small section of my layout.

While assembling the pushbutton stations it accured to me that they could be simplified with a circuit board as well. So later today I will be in touch with my circuit board guy, see how things are coming, and add some work to his list.

My "real" job has been very busy, but I expect to make good progress on my revised layout plan and the control system by early spring.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: jsmvmd on February 19, 2008, 03:54:49 PM
Dear Sheldon,

Probably a dumb question, but could it be helpful to all concerned to videotape a portion of the mtg to see operation in action?  As a visual learner it helps me a lot to see it up close and personal.  Thank you.  If you folks cannot post a video, I will just have to see it in my mind's eye!

Best Wishes,

Jack
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on February 19, 2008, 05:34:39 PM
Jack,

What a good idea! Unfortunately I don't even own a video camera let alone know how to post such a thing on the web. And, everyone will be here in less than two hours.

But I will look into getting some help with that in the future because it would be a great way to explain some of this.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: jsmvmd on February 19, 2008, 06:16:19 PM
Dear Sheldon,

I should think a digital video recorder would work well.  It should be able to be uploaded via a USB port to U-Tube or a similar format, then linked in a post on this forum.  Don't forget to smile for the birdie!

If anyone has expertise with this, could you please refine my rather cursory comments.  Thank you.

Best Wishes,

Jack
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on February 20, 2008, 04:35:20 PM
Update,

Last nights meeting went very well. Most of our local group was in attendance and I deminstrated and explained the control system and the Aristo Craft Train Engineer. Everyone was impressed with the excelent speed control of the Train Engineer and its simple to use controls. The pushbuttom block controller was also deminstrated and everyone was inpressed with its ease of operation and the intuitive nature of the concept.

Some of the most curious where those who use DCC. Several could not believe the loco performance and asked me several times if "any modifications to loco had been done", again, no.

The demo loco of choice was a Bachmann Spectrum Heavy Mountain pulling a short train of about 16 piggyback flats. It ran flawlessly all evening back and forth on about 70' of track on my upper deck which is wired to the test unit of the new system.

Production of the circuit boards is now the only thing holding up installation of the system on the first layout to be converted, one of the group members.

And as the reconstruction of my layout progresses it will obviously be installed there.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on March 03, 2008, 06:59:18 PM
Update:

In addition to the controller circuit board, I am developing a circuit board to allow quick, easy and modular wiring of the control panel pushbuttons. This will greatly simplify the wiring needed to install the system.

A busy "work" schedule has slowed completion of the system docmentation and application notes, but it is in the works and will be ready soon!

One of the layouts already slated for conversion has been on NMRA National and Local Convention tours as well as regional open house programs, so by this comming fall, those who can travel to the Mid Atlantic may have the oppertunity to see the system in operation. that's are plan anyway.

When that layout, or some significant part of my layout, are operational with the system, we will also try to video the operation of the system.

On the next break I get from "work", I will also start testing the Aristo accessory controller to see how that might be applied to HO layouts, possibly for sound effect control or other additional features.

Sheldon

Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on March 10, 2008, 07:05:32 PM
Update:

The design for the block controller circuit board is complete and preproduction samples are in the works - as soon as they are made and tested a first production batch will be manufactured and be available for the first several layout conversions.

Still very busy here but additional documentation is progressing.

Several additional modelers have expressed interest - at this rate the first production run will be spoken for before it is produced!

Sheldon

Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Guilford Guy on March 10, 2008, 07:47:40 PM
Sorry if this has already been addressed, but does the system support sound functions? We use the Aristo Train Engineer for DC at the Youth Club.
Thanks,
GG
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on March 10, 2008, 07:54:55 PM
Guilford Guy,

I'm still working on that part - but, if you are familar with the TE, than you know it has 5 accessory buttons. I will be doing tests with the Aristo accessory recievers soon to see how easily those buttons can be set up to operate sound functions just like the various DC accessory controllers on the market.

Since I don't use sound, it ws not important for me in the begining, but I know others will be interested so I will be testing and developing a way to use those accessory outputs for sound and/or other functions.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on March 19, 2008, 09:12:21 PM
Update:

A fresh shipment of additional Train Engineers and an accessory reciever for additional testing arived yesterday. Today the mailman brought the test prototype circuit board and preliminary tests where made this evening. All looks and works great!

More detailed testing will take place over the next few days and a production run should be in the works soon.

Assemby of additional TE/power supply combos has begun to supply both my layout and the other layout slated for conversion.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on April 06, 2008, 05:42:29 PM
Update:

Well there seems to be light at the end of the work tunnel that will allow a return to more concetrated work on the layout and control system.

The plan is to have both circuit boards and complete documentation ready in about a month.

Also, a new multi voltage power supply for the relay boards and signal system is under development.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on April 17, 2008, 01:51:53 PM
Update:

Aristo Craft is currently out of stock on the replacement rubber antenna for the Train Engineer, so I have built and tested my own shorter, friendlier, indoor antenna.

At only 4" high, it is shorter than the Aristo rubber antenna or the metal antenna when colapsed, and preliminary tests show no loss in range compared to the Aristo rubber antenna.

The circuit borads are in production! Another meeting at my house this past week displayed the preproduction board and the new shorter antenna.

Work is finially catching up and completion of the documentation will follow shortly.

Sheldon

Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: richG on April 17, 2008, 03:02:19 PM
This may not add anything to the discussion but at a MRR show back in January, I watched two "little" engineers controlling their locos with the Aristo wireless. What I found interesting is they stayed with their consist walking around the layout. They were not in some remote location. The outer loop was double headed. The inside loop Thomas engines were being run. They were having a great time.

(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l267/richg1998/img_0730.jpg)

Rich
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on April 17, 2008, 04:06:49 PM
RichG,

Thanks for sharing this, especially with the photo. That is exactly what this whole thread is about!

My pushbutton block controller will allow the Aristo Train Engineer (same throttle used in the photo) to be used not only for display operation as shown here, but for more advanced multi train, walk around operation sessions on layouts intended to be operated in a prototypical manner - and, retain the simple operation and display running features you saw at the show.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Guilford Guy on April 17, 2008, 04:11:31 PM
Aw rich, you didnt catch me- I = Club President, having been elected a couple years ago...
Our layout is so small I can often find a corner chair by a station on run passenger equipment, and hope that it won't derail on the "kiddie twackage."
The system is pretty straight-forwards, and the "momentum" make operations a lot more pleasant without kids going stop+go...
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd264/Guilford_Guy/Model%20Stuff/DSC07051.jpg)
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd264/Guilford_Guy/Model%20Stuff/DSC07047.jpg)
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Yampa Bob on April 17, 2008, 08:16:26 PM
Sheldon
Between my other projects, I have been trying to follow this thread.  I just have a 4 X 8 double track, but it would be great to sit back in my easy chair and use the wireless.  If I can qualify for a power chair, (Hovaround or Scooter), I could follow the trains around the layout.

Would you please give me a link or two for just the basic "starter" set for the Aristo TE.   I was also wondering about the type antenna connector, is it a BNC? and what is the frequency?  There is a company that makes all types of "rubber duck" antennas, down to a very short one used for UHF.

Bob
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on April 17, 2008, 09:33:36 PM
Bob,

Aristo Craft and the Train Engineer products can be found at www.aristocraft.com, but their site gives only basic info about the product and much of that is geared toward large scale not HO or other smaller scales.

Basicly, as it comes out of the box, the Train Engineer is just a throttle system - a wireless transmitter and a reciever. The reciever is basicly just the speed controller and requires a power supply suitable for the scale and type of train you are running. So with a suitable power supply, one reciever/transmitter setup is just like one train set "power pack" except it is wireless and it provides very good control by using pluse width modulation.

The transmitter uses buttons - fast, slow, east, west, emergency stop, to control the train. The reciever stays at the last direction and voltage until a new command is sent by pushing the buttons. There are 10 channels on 10 frequencies, giving 100 independent trains that could be controled at once. Any transmitter and reciever can be easily programed to any of the 100 combinations and the channels can be switched within a given frequency with the touch of one button.

So for large scale you want more volts and amps then you need for HO. The TE will handle 24 volts at 10 amps for large scale but I use a 13.8 volt, 3 amp power supply for my HO application.

The real heart of what I am doing is in the layout wiring - adapting "block control" wiring to take full advantage of the walk around wireless control offered by the Train Engineer.

For a small layout, depending on how many trains you are trying to run at once, you may not really need a complex block control system. The Train Engineer can simply replace any fixed conventional throttles you are using now, and it may be able to use them as a power supply.

As for the antenna, no it does not have a BNC, it has a very simple screw in type like an old protable radio. To install the Aristo rubber duckie you remove a small bracket and the end of the antenna has a loop that is held directly on to the circuit board with a screw.

So commercial rubber duckies will not fit. I made my shorter version from a 1/4" diameter spring and some heat shrink tubing.

Hope this helps, let me know if you need more info. Complete documentation of what I am doing will be available in the next month or two.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Yampa Bob on April 17, 2008, 11:52:37 PM
Thanks for the link.  If not too expensive I would like a very basic setup to run one or two locos.  If I put one on an isolated siding, then I would only be running one at a time. 

I'll look into it and check back if I have more questions. 

Bob
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: grumpy on April 18, 2008, 12:17:00 AM
Bob
I just purchased one and the cost was about $120.00. My plan is to use it for my garden railway one train at a time . I have yet to experiment with it but my complaint so far is that it is quite bulky. If I can have a good day I hope to try it on the dc portion of my layout. Haven't had too many good days lately.
Don :(
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Yampa Bob on April 18, 2008, 12:58:44 AM
GG, I just had to comment on the first picture you posted.  The small boy is mesmerized, the guy behind him is thinking "How can I get all this and that new washing machine", and the woman behind him is thinking "Well, there goes my new washer"   :D

Bob
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on April 18, 2008, 07:49:09 AM
Grumpy,

Bulky? Are you refering to the transmitter? Myself, and those involed with me in the development of my system actually like the fact that the buttoms on the the transmitter are few and large as opposed to tiny and many like most DCC handhelds.

It is no bigger than the Digitrax or NEC throttles and the large buttons are arranged and shaped in a fashion that allows using it without looking at the remote once you become acustom to it. 

One recommendation, remove the belt clip from the back. The unit will seem much nicer than. And, as I have been discussing, we have been working on making the antenna smaller for indor use. But in truth, the Aristo rubbr duckie or even the rigid antenna not extended are really not that bad.

Yampa Bob,

One reciever/transmitter set retails for about $200, but with good shopping they can be found in the $120 to $150 dollar range. wiring to do as you discribe would be very simple and could be connected to the action of the turnouts reducing the number of control switches needed. For HO I found nice 13.8 volt power supplies for under $25.00 each.

You do need a power supply for each unit if you intend you use multiple throttles on the same layout. My layout will have 8 throttles, one other we are converting to the system will have 6.

I'll would be happy to send you a simple schematic for what you discribe.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: grumpy on April 18, 2008, 07:41:16 PM
Sheldon
What I was referring to was the fact that three units were needed to run the system . Although the hand held is wireless the other two pieces have to be installed somewhere and will require quite a bit of room in some cases.If you have any other suggestion to make start-up easier please let me know.
Don ???
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on April 18, 2008, 10:11:33 PM
Don,

Usually large scale modelers mount the power supply and the reciever on/in some sort of board, often covered by a model building, that can be easily disconnected and taken inside when not in use. Or the reciever is placed in a shed or other structure near the outdoor track.

For indoor use we simply mount the reciever and power supply under the layout somewhere.

I use a 13.8 power supply made by Pyramid for powering CB radios and the like and I mount the reciever right to the top of the power supply making it a nice compact unit.

Large scale requires higher voltages and the power supplies are a little bigger.

Sheldon 
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Guilford Guy on April 18, 2008, 11:35:37 PM
If you could compress al the electronics into a very small board, that could fit in a B unit, and put a 9v battery hooked up to the power-pack leads. You could have a remote control AB set... I know Aristo marketed an HO Train-Engineer, but it wasn't successful, and I am not sure how exactly it operated...
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: grumpy on April 19, 2008, 12:26:07 AM
Sheldon
I am using a MRC  Trainpower 6200. I t will supply 18.5 V DC for my G sale or 14.0 V DC for my HO plus it has the AC power for accessories. I purchase the unit for  it's versatility.I have other power supplies I can use but chose to use this one.The disadvantage  to the unit is its size. The prime purpose was to power my G scale. I am sort of like Bob wondering if I will have time to finish my projects.
Don ::)
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Jim Banner on April 19, 2008, 01:17:31 AM
Grumpy, I picked up a used  Aristo-Craft (Crest) Train Engineer  transmitter and track receiver last year for a very good price.  I stuffed the receiver, along with some batteries, into a Bachmann large scale reefer.  Then I modified a couple of locomotives so that plugging in a jumper would cut out the motors from their normal connection and reconnect them to the receiver in the reefer.  Now I can run battery/radio control on one train and normal control on another. 

It would be very easy to add another jack to the reefer to cut out the batteries and reconnect the input of the receiver to a line powered dc supply instead.  This would make it possible to set the reefer under an H0 layout, plug in a couple of plugs, and run a train using the TE transmitter.  Just something for you to think about.
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on May 14, 2008, 09:34:00 PM
Update:

Block control circuit board cards are expected soon, Train Engineer power supplies and recievers are all on hand and have been assembled and wired into units for both my layout and the other layout that will be converted to the system.

Testing is complete on smaller, indoor friendly rubber duckie antenna and all 14 transmitters will be converted to them in the next few days. Range of well over 125' has been obtained even with a short  4" antenna.

Those of you who have contacted me off the board, I will be in touch soon with more info. Things are finially slowing down a little with my other businesses.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on June 12, 2008, 10:28:34 AM
Update:

Well things are still busy here dispite my best efforts to the contrary - so the documentation of the control system is still not complete - but is progressing.

The block control relay cards are ready and on hand, so if anyone is intersted we can now build the system and are begining to convert our first layout.

In addition to those parts needed for this first layout conversion and for my layout, I have enough boards on hand for several more average sized layouts.

Testing of the Aristo Craft accessory reciever shows very limited uses in this application - so anyone interested in using this type of system and desiring to control sound, you should consider the RCS throttle rather than the Aristo Train Engineer. The RCS throttle comes in a sound loco friendly version and will work the same as the Train Engineer with my block selector.

The upcoming growth in popularity of DC sound equiped locos and the availablity of my system may prompt Aristo to look at a sound control module, but that remains to be seen.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on August 05, 2008, 10:40:00 AM
Update:

Well, it has been a while but we have been busy here. The lighted pushbuttons have finally arrived and conversion of our first layout should begin this week.

Continued testing has proven the reliablity and consistancy of all earlier findings and one improvement. The TE has built in momentum settings. I had conducted limited tests with them up til now since I had never been a fan of momentum. Further testing has shown even better performance from vertually all locos with the first (least amount) momentum setting rather than the no momentum setting. Little if any change in operational feel but a noticable improvement in slow starts, which where allready great with most locos.

More to come as we get this first layout converted.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Mike on August 12, 2008, 09:20:29 PM
Thanks for the update, Sheldon. It will be great to get the details of the functioning unit when it is installed.- Mike
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Mike on August 16, 2008, 08:05:22 AM
Sheldon- In your latest post on the HO thread, you said that you thought you would have your system running for your regional NMRA meeting. When and where? Will you be open to the public? I'd sure like to see it close up.- Mike
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on August 17, 2008, 11:25:44 AM
Mike,

I will contact you off list regarding this.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: jsmvmd on September 09, 2008, 11:56:55 AM
Sheldon- In your latest post on the HO thread, you said that you thought you would have your system running for your regional NMRA meeting. When and where? Will you be open to the public? I'd sure like to see it close up.- Mike

Dear Sheldon,

My sentiments, too. 

Any chance you could video a running session and post here or on You-Tube?

I should be moving to a new home soon, and will get started with a newly constructed HO layout.  Will contact you off-line regarding circuitry and components.

Best Wishes,

Jack
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on September 09, 2008, 01:49:37 PM
Jack,

I will contact you, Mike and others off list very soon with the details. There will be a public show available in the fall. The MER show will be by invitation.

As for you-tube, well I don't even own a video recorder, but I will see what can be done. We are planning lots of photo documentation and a possible print article.

Private demostrations will be possible as well.

The work is going well and we expect to have the layout running in a week or two.

More latter,

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Mike on September 09, 2008, 06:39:18 PM
In those famous words: "anticipating!"- Mike
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: jsmvmd on September 10, 2008, 08:20:57 AM
Dear Sheldon,

My el cheapo Kodak digital camera, about the size of a pack of cigarettes takes very nice videos.  Just the ticket for an informal event.  Hand held or on a tripod, it will work nicely.  Surely one of your friends or club members has one. If not you can borrow mine.  Less than 120 clams at Sam's Club.

Best Wishes,

Jack
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on September 18, 2008, 07:38:28 PM
Update:

New now have the system about 60% installed and where able to test run our first loco around the layout. Everything worked as planned/designed.

This is good has the layout is scheduled for public viewings in October and  November.

Those of you who have been in touch with me directly, you will get more info very soon. We wanted to be sure we would be online and running before we made commitments to show the system. With todays successfull test we are right on schedule.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on October 09, 2008, 08:12:14 AM
Update:

The user control panels are now nearly complete and are installed in most locations. Only minor problems have be incountered and no design problems have been found. All works as planned/designed.

Work this coming weekend should bring us to a 90% completion level.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on October 18, 2008, 10:18:51 AM
Update:

The installation of the radio controlled pushbutton cab control system is basicly complete and we will be deminstrating it on Sunday! A few ajustments and inhancements remain but the system works exactly as planned!

Because we installed the system on an existing layout, replacing an older rotary switch cab control system, which used tethered throttles, we had a number of track section (electrical block) issues to resolve, new or different gaps/feeders needed, etc.

Had this been a new layout, with track sections planned for this system, installation would have been even easier.

Next week our local group will see and run it and I will report on the results.

I would like to thank Alan Anderson for the opportunity to install and test the system on his layout, and thanks to Dave Renard and Ken Meyer for their help with the project. Also a special thanks to Chuck Davis of Oak Tree Systems for his help with the block control circuit board.

So what have we learned and/or acheived?

We have added wireless walkaround control to a layout without having to install decoders - this was important since many of the locos are older brass and are small (shays, etc)

We kept things simple with only few buttons to push, simple controllers, and few "rules" to learn.

We spent an average amount of money compared to the orginal control system or a DCC system, but we saved all the decoder installation expense and problems.

We used some technoligy that is nearly 100 years old, mixed with some up to date radio technoligy - new is not always better, often just different.

We where able "build" 80% of the system on the workbench, making installation easy and straight forward. The only "special" part is my block controller circuit board, all the rest are readily available electronics componants.

We are not at the "mercy" of any one manufacturer for continued support. Even if Aristo stopped making the Train Engineer, The throttle portion of the system could be replaced with a similar product like the one from RCS, with no change to the rest of the system.


So thanks for listening and if you have any other questions feel free to ask here or contact me direct.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on November 01, 2008, 03:01:58 PM
Update:

This past Tuesday our local group saw and operated the new control system for the first time. We had a big crowd! Several crews operated trains with only minimal instruction. A few minor ajustments remain and will be completed this comming week.

The next open house is November 9th, if you are interested, please contact me directly for info.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on November 12, 2008, 03:05:54 PM
Sunday's open house was a complete success!

Two operators ran trains all day without any problems of failures of any kind! The control system worked perfectly for 4 hours of uninterruped train running. Visitors saw the system in operation and many where amazed at its ease of use and flawless operation.

I am now writing a complete book on the system and its design, construction and operation.

Sheldon

Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on November 23, 2008, 12:06:18 PM
Now that the first system is installed and working, and the instruction book is in progress, I have concluded that it would be practical for me to do custom wiring diagrams for those interested in using the control system.

With the instruction book (which will contain most standard track configurations) and any custom diagrams needed, anyone with basic electrcial skills should be able to build and install the system.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on December 01, 2008, 08:09:00 PM
In addition to the work of preparing the book on the system, I have been working on the details of the companion signaling system for my layout.

This may be of interest to a great number of people since it will also work with DCC, and has a lower cost than most solid statesystems I have looked at.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: jsmvmd on December 03, 2008, 08:37:55 AM
Dear Sheldon,

Glad to see such nice progress!  Will your book be hard copy or an e-book?

Hope to get down your way the next open house(s).

Best Wishes,

Jack
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on December 03, 2008, 02:35:54 PM
Jack,

Hard copy for sure, I don't even have a clue as to how to put the drawings on an electronic format. All my attempts at scanning things like that have been failures, I don't have CAD, and it takes too long to do that way.

It may be best as a notebook style to allow removal and copying of the wiring diagram pages.

Anytime you can get down this way I can arrange a viewing of the system.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: jsmvmd on December 12, 2008, 11:24:14 AM
Dear Sheldon,

For scanning stuff into a computer, you might consider contacting your local Vo-Tech and talk to the electronics instructor, who I am sure would be willing to show you how to do it and suggest the right scanner.

For instance, my son's instructor is an EE and builds all his own stuff, uses computer controls for house electronics control like lighing, heat and other stuff with a generic program called "Rosie."  All the kids use it.  He uses a 52" plasma TV for his computer screen and has made it interactive with an electronic "pen" so the kids were drawing up a storm at the open house!

It sure beats Kinko's, and you can see all the neat stuff the kids are building for Christmas!

Too, this guy is so neat I am sure he would be willing to talk to you to walk you through it, sort of like to equally charged electronics guys who do not repel each other!!!

If you would like, you could contact me off-line to discuss it.

Best Wishes,

Jack
Title: Re: radio control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on December 25, 2008, 09:31:56 PM
Jack, I may be in touch soon about several issues.

To all, I am now refining and detailing the more advanced features for the book. More info soon.

Sheldon
Title: Re: radio control for HO - DCC users may want to read this!
Post by: Atlantic Central on January 16, 2009, 08:23:54 AM
Update:

Work on the system doucmention and book continues and some preliminary information will be sent to interested parties soon. If you are interested please contact me.

The New Aristo Craft Train Engineer Revolution is due out soon. I am on the list to recieve one of the first ones for user testing and evaluation. Based on the features advertised, it should be able to provide control of both onboard and layout based sound systems and/or control other accessories. While more advanced than the current 10 channel TE, it is billed as still being simple to operate. It is unlikely that I would replace my current 10 channel versions on my layout, but I am very interested in testing the new version so as to provide other users of my system with the fullest range of features and options.

Now that the holiday is behind us, I expect to make good progress on the further developement/documention of the system.

One more note, DCC users please read! - Much time recently has been spent on signaling and control panel design. The outgrowth of this has been the developement of turnout control circuits that are very user friendly allowing the simplest arangement of lighted pushbuttons on the control panel to align turnouts by route selection - and, like the cab selector, it allows those controls to be easily duplicated in as many locations as needed. Example - local tower panels around the layout, and one central "CTC" like panel for the intire mainline. These turnout control circuits will work with any control system and are less expensive than stationary decoders.

Additionally, my two color signal system, complete with interlocking and approach sginaling, when used with my turnout control circuits, requires no signal logic modules, no computers and is also DCC friendly since it uses the Dallee current sensing detector. This makes it very cost effective!

Sheldon
Title: Re: Radio Control for HO - DCC users please read my latest post!
Post by: Mike on January 16, 2009, 09:27:04 AM
Good news, Sheldon. I anxiously await the latest info. Thanks for your continued developmental work.- Mike
Title: Re: Radio Control for HO - DCC users please read my latest post!
Post by: jsmvmd on January 17, 2009, 12:37:33 PM
Dear Sheldon,

Very interested in a book copy. If you need, I can proofread it for you. I have a knack for grammer, etc and could help that way.  Electronics, no way!

Regardless, I am anticipating!  When do you expect to publish?

Best Wishes,

Jack
Title: Re: Radio Control for HO - DCC users please read my latest post!
Post by: Atlantic Central on January 30, 2009, 08:29:34 AM
Update,

An advance preliminary version of the book is expected within the month!

I will send it all those who have expressed interest.

The refinement of the signaling system is going very well.

As soon as the new TE is in my hand we will report on it!

Sheldon
Title: Re: Radio Control for HO - DCC users please read my latest post!
Post by: bevernie on January 30, 2009, 12:39:14 PM
 :DGREETINGS!! Jack, if one has a "knack" for GRAMMAR, it would do well if that one had a "knack" for SPEELLING!!(At least the word "grammar"!!) :o
                                                                                                 THANX!!
                                                             8)                                    Ernie
Title: Re: Radio Control for HO - DCC users please read my latest post!
Post by: Atlantic Central on January 30, 2009, 04:18:26 PM
Ernie,

How is Ebay, have you grown up and got a credit card yet?

Sheldon
Title: Re: Radio Control for HO - DCC users please read my latest post!
Post by: Guilford Guy on January 30, 2009, 06:49:00 PM
Growing old is mandatory, its growing up that's the challenge...

FYI, you spelled "spelling" wrong.
Title: Re: Radio Control for HO - DCC users please read my latest post!
Post by: Atlantic Central on February 27, 2009, 01:09:09 PM
Update:

The new Aristo TE has been delayed so no info on it yet.

The book is coming along but work and family have delayed things a bit.

If you expressed interest in this before, but have not heard from me directly in recent weeks, please contact me off the board to get the latest info on the book and wiring diagrams.

The test layout continues to run very well and only a few refinements have been needed.

The continuing developement work has lead to complete specs for an easy to design and install signal system that is great for moderate sized layouts at a modest cost. This and the turnout route control are fully compatable with DCC.

Sheldon
Title: Re: Radio Control for HO
Post by: SteamGene on February 27, 2009, 04:28:17 PM
Sheldon,
Are you sending the draft out BEFORE editing?
Gene
Title: Re: Radio Control for HO
Post by: Atlantic Central on November 12, 2009, 08:25:56 AM
Update and a bump,

Several posters on other forums have expressed interest in the Aristo TE, so I have bumped this to make it easier to find if they come looking.

Work on the book is progressing but slow due to family and work issues.

The test layout has been working flawlessly and all the regular operators like using the system.

One of the family issues delaying things is our desire to move to home that will be more friendly to my wife's health issues (no stairs). As soon as that is resolved completion of the book will be top job and my layout contrustion will resume as well as further developement of additional system features.

Sheldon
Title: Re: Radio Control for HO
Post by: jsmvmd on November 13, 2009, 09:03:55 AM
"layout contrustion"

Dear Sheldon,

My "layout confusion" along with my life confusion is proceeding nicely !

Good to hear from you.  Anxiously anticipating the completion.

Good Luck !

Jack from good old Altoona