there has been great locomotives lost to the evil scrapper, of all kinds.
we need these electric locos, i know there are ones in mth and brass that are just too expensive.
Milwaukee Road EP-2, EP-3, EF-4 and EP-4.
Great Northern Railway Y-1
so lets vote for these great electrics so they can be on everyone's layout.
Steamie-
Model locomotives don't get manufactured because a group of modelers has voted for them. And I suppose that's good from your perspective because steam and diesel fans far outnumber electric rail fans. No, model locomotives get built because there is a sufficient demand by people who want a articular model in sufficient numbers and who will express their desire by putting cash on the counter to purchase the model. I'm afraid this makes future electric locomotives long shots. In a more positive vein, many electrics were fairly boxy which should make them excellent scratch building projects. Building your favorite electric loco would teach you new skills of which you can be proud, make you the envied owner of a genuinely unique model and give the piece you want on your layout.
-- D
Quote from: Doneldon on December 19, 2014, 02:50:58 AM
Steamie-
Model locomotives don't get manufactured because a group of modelers has voted for them. And I suppose that's good from your perspective because steam and diesel fans far outnumber electric rail fans. No, model locomotives get built because there is a sufficient demand by people who want a articular model in sufficient numbers and who will express their desire by putting cash on the counter to purchase the model. I'm afraid this makes future electric locomotives long shots. In a more positive vein, many electrics were fairly boxy which should make them excellent scratch building projects. Building your favorite electric loco would teach you new skills of which you can be proud, make you the envied owner of a genuinely unique model and give the piece you want on your layout.
-- D
Look how Duck finally made it because of his fans. We could do the same if we just try.
Steamie-
Not a good comparison, though I admire your spirit. The cost of producing a small plastic body, when many of the parts already exist
and the drive train and chassis are already done, is much, much less than tooling up a whole new quality model locomotive, including
the carbody, chassis, drive system and pantographs. I still think your best option is a scratch build.
-- D
comparing duck to a n obscure electric is like comparing apples and oranges. for one thing, duck is a character on a childrens television series, which is a natural market for seling toys/models. for another thing, he is based upon a class of british steam locomotive which was probably already being made, thus the costs of retooling would be minimal. to make any of the Milwaukee electrics you would have to start from scratch, for a very limited market. if they ever do get made, they won't be cheap.
I can see these models getting produced in brass in a limited run with a price tag of $800 or more, however no company that mass produces locomotives will ever make them and they will never be available for an affordable price, you might even have to pay over a thousand dollars for one.
Quote from: jward on December 19, 2014, 10:30:52 AM
comparing duck to a n obscure electric is like comparing apples and oranges. for one thing, duck is a character on a childrens television series, which is a natural market for seling toys/models. for another thing, he is based upon a class of british steam locomotive which was probably already being made, thus the costs of retooling would be minimal. to make any of the Milwaukee electrics you would have to start from scratch, for a very limited market. if they ever do get made, they won't be cheap.
i know i paid $127.99 for my PRR GG1
Quote from: steamerthesteamtrain on December 19, 2014, 07:06:19 PM
i know i paid $127.99 for my PRR GG1
And the GG-1 is the most popular and widely known electric locomotive in the United States, 99.999% of Americans have never heard of or are not familiar with any of the electric locomotives you want produced. The PRR also has one of the largest groups of fans in the US, it is up in the top 10 for sure. Great Northern and Milwaukee Road have much less people and some people have probably never heard of either railroad 99% of Americans have at least heard of the Pennsylvania Railroad someway or another. Further, when people think of electric locomotives of that era they think of the Pennsylvania GG-1 in Tuscan red livery.
to put what acy said another way, Bachmann produced the e33 which didn't sell well. they have since indicated they have no plans to produce the e44, which would share the same drive as the e33, the only new tooling would be the body. the e44 would sell to pennsy fans, as it was a very common and for the times, modern electric. there just isn't the market to justify even these minimal modifications to an existing locomotive. quoting the exception to the rule won't change the basic premise: they won't be able to sell enough of them to turn a profit so they won't be made.
Quote from: jward on December 19, 2014, 11:53:37 PM
to put what acy said another way, Bachmann produced the e33 which didn't sell well. they have since indicated they have no plans to produce the e44, which would share the same drive as the e33, the only new tooling would be the body. the e44 would sell to pennsy fans, as it was a very common and for the times, modern electric. there just isn't the market to justify even these minimal modifications to an existing locomotive. quoting the exception to the rule won't change the basic premise: they won't be able to sell enough of them to turn a profit so they won't be made.
I know right? The only good electrics are PRR GG1 and VGN E33
we need the others
Well if you need the others so badly, you can contact some brass manufacturers in China and have them produce some locomotives for you. The minimum run is around 250 units at around $1000-$1200 per locomotive meaning you will need to pay them at least $300,000 for each unique locomotive design you want produced.
Doneldon;
I agree with you completely. I am a New Haven fan, so guess what...!! To the uninformed, the New Haven was the predecessor of the GG-1. Pennsy took an EP-3 to experiment with, called it good, and, with the expertise of Raymond Lowey, came out with the design for the GG-1.
It is, however, the New Haven, with New York City "clean air" (Circa 1902) ordinance scuffing its heels, came up with the EF-1s, catenary systems, and the voltage component (11,000VAC/25 cycle (hertz), as a power supply. The rest followed suit nation wide, as well as on the New Haven..
OK; now, it is economically infeasible for a commercial house like Kader, etc, to produce something that is a low-number product. The exception to this thinking was when PROTO came out with the DL-109. They hit the "New Haven Mafia"-a lot of rail-fans in this area (CT, MA, RI), who scooped them up. This is an exception though. The same might have been said for the EP-5 (Jets), if the electrified fans was bigger-it wasn't. There are some spots of models like the Brasilian model of same prototype that Fratesa puts out. Price isn't all that bad, and with some alteration, could be built into the NH EF-3, EP4, EP-5; the Milwaulkee Road electric "Little Joe", etc.
The option Doneldon-and myself-advocates is to build one yourself. The parts are out there; the bodies are out there; all you would have to do is to get started...
Rich C.
Do you mean to say, you don't care if Bachmann does not manufacture any GN Y-1 or MILW EP-2?
Steam;
If you are talking to me, I am merely taking part in a debate concerning the economical plausibility of a company like Kader, et al, to go forth with something that they know will probably be a losing proposition. IN business, it is not the beauty, or romanticism; it is the ROE (return on equity) that will determine the end. It is the stock market, a business deal between two companies-anything that contains the abovementioned mechanics, this will be true. Put yourself in their shoes.
Rich C.
PS: If you wanted it badly enough, you could build just about any model of any prototype out there-I don't care if it is a life-sized dummy of Jayne Mansfield!
Quote from: electrical whiz kid on December 20, 2014, 07:40:34 PM
Steam;
If you are talking to me, I am merely taking part in a debate concerning the economical plausibility of a company like Kader, et al, to go forth with something that they know will probably be a losing proposition. IN business, it is not the beauty, or romanticism; it is the ROE (return on equity) that will determine the end. It is the stock market, a business deal between two companies-anything that contains the abovementioned mechanics, this will be true. Put yourself in their shoes.
Rich C.
PS: If you wanted it badly enough, you could build just about any model of any prototype out there-I don't care if it is a life-sized dummy of Jayne Mansfield!
i meant everyone.
I would purchase a Little Joe, boxcabs and a BiPolar if available.
I missed both the MTH offerings unfortunately, at the time they were out of my reach.
i would l not buy any of them. i am like most modellers, my limited budget goes for things i can actually use. i'm sorry that this isn't what you want to hear, but sometimes reality sucks. you've been told repeatedly there is no market for an inexpensive model of any of those electrics, but you refuse to believe this. the horse has died, let it rest in peace.
Quote from: jward on December 21, 2014, 09:04:13 PM
i would l not buy any of them. i am like most modellers, my limited budget goes for things i can actually use. i'm sorry that this isn't what you want to hear, but sometimes reality sucks. you've been told repeatedly there is no market for an inexpensive model of any of those electrics, but you refuse to believe this. the horse has died, let it rest in peace.
i know there is no market for them already
Jeff;
There may not be a good market, but one can certainly take what is available and build what they want around it. To me, the only major obstacle is the catenary system, but that can be gotten around as well. As far as the dying spabine critter, Depends where you are at. Here in Ct, there is certainly a following, per the legacy the New Haven had left.
Rich
(SGT C)
new haven electrics may be a bit different. they were high visibility in their day, but those were not what the op was asking about, I do agree that if you want something not available, you can either look for a brass model or try to scratchbuild one. there is a third way, at least for the boxcab type electrics. perhaps you could interest one of the resin kit makers to make a resin kit fir the body. but in order to do that, you'd have to have suitable running gear available for this type and you'd have to supply plans and commit to buying a certain number of kits. resin kits are not cheap, and they are not easy to build but the results can be impressive.
Jeff;
They sure can! I have built up a lot of Steve Funaro's kits and they are great looking cars. In this world of model railroading, there are a great many kits that could be used as a base. Fratesa is only one of many companies. This Brasillian company puts together a double-ended electric that at first glance, is a dead ringer for the EP-4, or EF-3. A fair amount of work would be needed to pull off an exact replica but it can be done. The other daunting thing is that a lot of electric prototype roads were massive in their facilities, as they were fairly urban.
Sarge C
Jeff;
I also just had a brainstorm: The GG-1 wheel arrangement is suited for NH EF-3 and EP-4. It is also suited for an EP-3. These motors were mainstays on the NH. It was surprising when McGuiness decided to dead-line any of them, as they were universally a pretty good rig to run and maintain. My guess is [that] if one wanted to, he could, with a bit of cash outlay, make a "Little Joe", BI-Polar, or any of the Cleveland Terminal heavier class motors. The makin's are there.
Rich
(SGT C)
it all depends on how badly you want them, what you're willing to do to get them. scratchbuilding is becoming a lost art in this age of ready to run. as for the new haven, they've always been one of my favourites, especially the maybrook line.
i am not the scratch building type.
Quote from: steamerthesteamtrain on December 25, 2014, 02:57:26 AM
i am not the scratch building type.
Then you are also the type without any of the electric locomotives you want. :)
Yeah, Steam;
Unless you are willing to shell out some serious dinero for brass, you will enevitably have to build what you want. Scratch-building is indeed, becoming a lost art. I am glad I can.
RIch (SGT C)
Steam-
There's an awful lot of satisfaction in watching a scratch-built product roll down the tracks for the
first time. Or even a heavily adapted, kitbashed one. Model rails who ignore these parts of the hobby
are missing out on two of the most rewarding parts of the hobby.
-- D
Quote from: Doneldon on December 27, 2014, 10:39:41 PM
Steam-
There's an awful lot of satisfaction in watching a scratch-built product roll down the tracks for the
first time. Or even a heavily adapted, kitbashed one. Model rails who ignore these parts of the hobby
are missing out on two of the most rewarding parts of the hobby.
-- D
or, in my case. watching trains roll over scratchbuilt trackwork.
Doneldon;
To stray a bit, I took a couple of Bachmann 2-10-2 Santa Fe types and sort of "New Haven-ized" them, and you are correct; there is nothing better than to watch stuff roll that you have put your hands on and actually breathed life into it. To me, it beats hell out of R-T-R. To tout scratch-building a bit more; there is a certain amount of freedom (independence?) to having acquired this ability-and it is a learned process-to be able to say "well...why don't I build..." and do it. You are right: Guys that don't approach this are missing out on some real excitement and satisfaction. Sort of like helping out in the birth of a pachederm...(SP?)
Rich (SGT C)
Let a scratch builder jump in this topic, and a member of a electric trolly line in EAST TROY Wisconsin. When people think of trains they see a diesel or steam loco! When you think PRR you see a K4 GG1 and the streamlined diesels. There is a small market for electric street traction but very few actually dive in a history book to find they can haul freight. In my area we had the The Milwaukee Electric Railway & Light Company a extensive 500 miles of interurban freight haulage and street cars. Simply said the history on electric is really covered with dust! In a scratch builders point of view I have been building a TM steeple cab in G scale. I can make the same thing in HO if I change the drive train and weight. Building a little joe takes a lot more curvature in your material, sure I can carve and then plaster mold the shell but that takes time. When you have the blue prints to copy or the real thing it makes it easier to build. Given time and experience I can build the electrics you ask for, but till then the steeple cabs and interurban cars are what I can do. Though I will tell you on of my co workers at ETTM is building a N scale electric line with operational overhead wire. just to say how hard it can be. You can find my post of my steeple cab in the large scale pages.