Bachmann Message Board

Discussion Boards => HO => Topic started by: DarG on December 27, 2014, 09:49:46 AM



Title: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: DarG on December 27, 2014, 09:49:46 AM
I posted a few weeks back that I got my train and track back up and running after a long hiatus.   The loco is a Bachmann Spectrum GP30 and I've had it for a long time.   From reading up I see that they are notorious for being noisy.  I notice that the truck gears are kinda sloppy and I think that makes for the noise.  I'd call it a "rattle" but not sure that's exactly accurate.  At any rate, I'm not worried about that noise.  What I'm trying to pin down is more of what sounds like a bad bearing.   I can clean and re-lube and get maybe 2-3 hours of quiet running (aside from the aforementioned rattle) and then I begin to start hearing that intermittent bearing noise again.  It remains intermittent but gets more frequent and louder.  Occurs in straights and curves and forward or reverse.   I have searched and found similar reports but didn't find a concensus solution.  One suggested checking the worm gears for binding but mine spin freely.   I've been focusing on the gears in the trucks but I don't believe that's the source.  I believe it may be the worm gear bearings and I'll target those specifically with a drop of lube when it starts acting up again and either rule them in or out as the source.  Clearly, I'm not sure it's a bearing, that's just what it sounds like to me.   I'm not an expert on fixing or troubleshooting these engines.   Any ideas where I should put my focus on to try and solve this particular issue?    

On the plus side, I have gotten one of my old Athearn blue box engines back running if this Bachmann defeats me.  

Had another question but it has slipped my mind for now.

Thanks in advance.


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: Len on December 27, 2014, 10:35:28 AM
It's probably the worm gear bearings. They're made of solid brass, rather than the oilite castings other mfg's use, and have to be lubed every couple of hours if you run a lot. Otherwise you get the squeal.

Working powdered graphite into the bearings, instead of oil, helps some.

Len


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: DarG on December 27, 2014, 11:04:21 AM
It's probably the worm gear bearings. They're made of solid brass, rather than the oilite castings other mfg's use, and have to be lubed every couple of hours if you run a lot. Otherwise you get the squeal.

Working powdered graphite into the bearings, instead of oil, helps some.

Len


As mentioned, those worm gears were #1 on my list to single out.   If they turn out to be the culprits, I'll give the graphite a try.

Thanks!


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on December 27, 2014, 01:16:15 PM
Bachmann Plus GP35s can also be noisy.  Mine is.  That was my first post here; got a lot of suggestions on what to try with the shell but never got any real answer about the motor.  I have yet to try it, but was going to next try to put some Conducta Lube where I believe the brushes to be inside the can motor.

Love Blue Boxes.  Very easy to take apart, clean, modify and get very quiet.  Only pain is that open frame motor/commutator setup.  Gets dirty.  On the plus side, easy access to it.

And I use a Labelle like oil w/needle on brass or bronze worm gear bearings.


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: Len on December 27, 2014, 02:29:38 PM
Proto-Power West/A-Line makes can motor upgrade kits for 'Blue Box' locos with open frame motors.

You can find them here: http://www.ppw-aline.com/re-power.htm (http://www.ppw-aline.com/re-power.htm)

Len


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on December 27, 2014, 02:40:44 PM
Yep.  Thank you Len, but I can't see myself spending $60+ shipping to do that.


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: DarG on December 28, 2014, 06:46:55 AM
Bachmann Plus GP35s can also be noisy.  Mine is.  That was my first post here; got a lot of suggestions on what to try with the shell but never got any real answer about the motor.  I have yet to try it, but was going to next try to put some Conducta Lube where I believe the brushes to be inside the can motor.

Love Blue Boxes.  Very easy to take apart, clean, modify and get very quiet.  Only pain is that open frame motor/commutator setup.  Gets dirty.  On the plus side, easy access to it.

And I use a Labelle like oil w/needle on brass or bronze worm gear bearings.

I got a second blue box running yesterday.  The first old motor I tried was dead.  I had a couple others and got it running.  I need to find carbon brushes and maybe the brush springs.  I guess athearn would have them?

 I have several athearn bb locos and price I paid is still on the boxes, all in $25 range, all were new when I bought them, years ago.  No upgrade motors for me either,  the beauty is in how little they cost.

When I put the Bachmann gp30 back together this last time,  I put a tiny drop of a conductive oil on the commutator.  It's the quietest it has run so far but I don't think that was the reason.  And I've only run it for a few minutes to test.   I've used several different lubes now,  on different parts to stop that squeal.  Currently the worm gear bushings are lubed with a drop of ATF.  When it squeals again I'll only oil those to confirm that they are the culprits.  We'll see what happens.


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on December 28, 2014, 08:51:10 AM
Are these Athearn motors the ones with brass or grey metal flywheels?  Athearn/Horizon Hobby may have the brushes and springs, so might Ebay.  Are there brushes and springs missing?  Why are you looking for replacements?  Make sure you put the brushes in the proper way, some have not realized they have a curve to them and that is the end that sits on the commutator. 
Do you have soldering skills?  If so, I suggest a total tear down on these to clean everything, including the motor and ditch the metal contact spring that runs across the top of the motor to both trucks.  If you want more info, just let me know, I would be glad to share.  You would be properly pleased with how quiet they can run.

I don't get it; if you found the GP30 ran it's quietest after you used the Conducta Lube, but don't think it was bc of the Conducta Lube, what do you think made it ran its quietest ever ???


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: Len on December 28, 2014, 09:04:42 AM
The Athearn motor brushes (ATH90037) are out of stock until March 2015. They're $11.98 for a bag of 24. The brush springs (ATH84014) are currently in stock. They're $8.98 for a bag of 36.

Len


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on December 28, 2014, 09:12:12 AM
Hey Len, can you find me headlight lenses for a Blue Box F7A? 
Thank you.


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: DarG on December 28, 2014, 09:20:33 AM
Are these Athearn motors the ones with brass or grey metal flywheels?  Athearn/Horizon Hobby may have the brushes and springs, so might Ebay.  Are there brushes and springs missing?  Why are you looking for replacements?  Make sure you put the brushes in the proper way, some have not realized they have a curve to them and that is the end that sits on the commutator.  
Do you have soldering skills?  If so, I suggest a total tear down on these to clean everything, including the motor and ditch the metal contact spring that runs across the top of the motor to both trucks.  If you want more info, just let me know, I would be glad to share.  You would be properly pleased with how quiet they can run.

I don't get it; if you found the GP30 ran it's quietest after you used the Conducta Lube, but don't think it was bc of the Conducta Lube, what do you think made it ran its quietest ever ???

Yes, I have soldering skills.   They are the brass flywheels.   I'm missing one spring and another I had to stretch, it was almost totally compressed (don't ask me how, I don't know) and the brushes are worn pretty good on one motor.  I do realize they are curved.   I haven't yet taken a motor completely apart but the dead one seems like a good candidate.  How do the flywheels come off?

I'm guessing soldering a couple of flexible wires from the clip to the contact arms to get rid of the spring, yes? 

The noise from my GP30 seemed to be mainly gear clatter, not accounting for the worm gear bearings when they run dry.   I used the bachmann pink snot on the gears this time (first time I used it)  instead of a thicker grease.  I think that's why it seemed quieter during the test run.   I don't think it had much to do with the drop of oil on the commutator.  It just sounded like less gear chatter.  


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on December 28, 2014, 09:46:55 AM
Well, glad you got it quieter.  For gear grease, I like to use a fishing reel lube that is plastic safe and can be found for cheap at Walfart or KMart.

Those are the good Athearn motors.  The flywheels should just pull off while pulling/twisting them while holding the opposite flywheel.  I have come across some stubborn ones that were 2nd hand that I have to belive someone glued and never has success in taking them off.  I also once found that one half a motor cradle was cracked and had to get a replacement motor-there is no successful way of gluing delrin plastic that I know. 

Agree, start with the dead one first.  Watch for the brush springs as you take the copper clips off.  I start with the end where the brushes are to relieve the tension there and then when I do the other end, I take the clip off.  Then I dump the springs somewhere safe like an old vitamin container or old plastic pill bottle so they don't get lost.  Check the clips on the one with the missing stuff, to make sure things did not go missing bc of the clip being faulty.  I clean the copper clips by soaking them in vinegar.
The brushes I put in something sealed, like a vitamin container with Isopropyl Alcohol to clean them and when I take them out to reassemble, I wipe them with rag.  Don't try to clean the springs.  I do clip a couple of coils off each one (like 2 mms), it helps get more realistic slow speeds.
If you can get the flywheels off and got to take the motor apart for cleaning, make sure you mark the magnets as "top" and "bottom" for reassembly otherwise the motor will run in op postie direction.  Gently chuck the motor shaft opposite the commutator in a drill and use an eraser or softer version track cleaning block to get the gunk off.  When done with that, use a #11 Exacto blade to clean the gunk out of the groves of the commutator.
Oh and while you are doing all of this, you should have the trucks (make sure you mark "front" for the front one) apart, to have the plastic gears soaking in warm soapy water, clean the wheels....Want more info?  There is also a great piece on this on the web, with pics.  Also found a great YouTube recently on using a drill or drill press to clean and polish the older Athearn sintered wheels.


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: DarG on December 28, 2014, 09:47:05 AM
The Athearn motor brushes (ATH90037) are out of stock until March 2015. They're $11.98 for a bag of 24. The brush springs (ATH84014) are currently in stock. They're $8.98 for a bag of 36.

Len


Thanks Len.   No rush but I'll check ebay and online stores too.


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: DarG on December 28, 2014, 09:54:45 AM
Well, glad you got it quieter.  For gear grease, I like to use a fishing reel lube that is plastic safe and can be found for cheap at Walfart or KMart.

Those are the good Athearn motors.  The flywheels should just pull off while pulling/twisting them while holding the opposite flywheel.  I have come across some stubborn ones that were 2nd hand that I have to belive someone glued and never has success in taking them off.  I also once found that one half a motor cradle was cracked and had to get a replacement motor-there is no successful way of gluing delrin plastic that I know.  

Agree, start with the dead one first.  Watch for the brush springs as you take the copper clips off.  I start with the end where the brushes are to relieve the tension there and then when I do the other end, I take the clip off.  Then I dump the springs somewhere safe like an old vitamin container or old plastic pill bottle so they don't get lost.  Check the clips on the one with the missing stuff, to make sure things did not go missing bc of the clip being faulty.  I clean the copper clips by soaking them in vinegar.
The brushes I put in something sealed, like a vitamin container with Isopropyl Alcohol to clean them and when I take them out to reassemble, I wipe them with rag.  Don't try to clean the springs.  I do clip a couple of coils off each one (like 2 mms), it helps get more realistic slow speeds.
If you can get the flywheels off and got to take the motor apart for cleaning, make sure you mark the magnets as "top" and "bottom" for reassembly otherwise the motor will run in op postie direction.  Gently chuck the motor shaft opposite the commutator in a drill and use an eraser or softer version track cleaning block to get the gunk off.  When done with that, use a #11 Exacto blade to clean the gunk out of the groves of the commutator.
Oh and while you are doing all of this, you should have the trucks (make sure you mark "front" for the front one) apart, to have the plastic gears soaking in warm soapy water, clean the wheels....Want more info?  There is also a great piece on this on the web, with pics.  Also found a great YouTube recently on using a drill or drill press to clean and polish the older Athearn sintered wheels.

I was using a thicker fishing reel lube (grease) on the gears.  I've had it forever and that's what I've always used.   I tried that on the GP30, then after another clean, an even thicker Teflon based lube.  This last time I tried the Bachmann stuff.   I think the thicker grease prevents the gears from fully meshing and maybe that accounts for the chatter.  The Bachmann pink stuff is more like a gel and is thinner than the other two.  But the gear mesh thing is just a theory and I could be very wrong. 

On the athearns, I pretty much got everything covered in terms of maint. with the exception of the motors.   Great info on that, thank you.   I'll operate on the dead one when I get a chance.  Do you have that web link?


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on December 28, 2014, 10:23:41 AM
The grease I mentioned is Teflon based and meshes very well to the point it almost looks like a liquid.

Which link would you like? 

And instead of soldering wires directly to the truck tops, I solder them to female 1/4" electrical connectors that easily fit on and off the truck tops, this way I can easily dissemble for any future maintenance.

Do me a favor and let me know in your search, if you ever happen to come across those headlight lenses I am looking for ?

Thanks and you're welcome :)


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: Len on December 28, 2014, 10:51:07 AM
M V Products makes an F7 headlight lens. Walthers carries them, but they're out of stock until mid-January next year. Mfg#: 516 Item#: 11.

You can also get the window set (ATH11016) directly from Athearn and use a piece of sprue to make your own headlight lens.

Len


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on December 28, 2014, 10:56:20 AM
Thank you Len.  I knew MV made them but had previously been given the wrong part #.  Thanks for clarifying and the tip on the sprue.  I was also told Details West also makes them-this true?


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: DarG on December 28, 2014, 11:05:42 AM
The grease I mentioned is Teflon based and meshes very well to the point it almost looks like a liquid.

Which link would you like? 

And instead of soldering wires directly to the truck tops, I solder them to female 1/4" electrical connectors that easily fit on and off the truck tops, this way I can easily dissemble for any future maintenance.

Do me a favor and let me know in your search, if you ever happen to come across those headlight lenses I am looking for ?

Thanks and you're welcome :)

Will keep an eye for the lenses.

I just took the motor apart.  Piece of cake.  Cant see why it's dead but I'm missing a clip and a spring so I'm swapping parts around.   When I come across some part's I'll try it again.

Spades to the arms, great idea.  Those little alligator clips may work as well.   Definitely will give it a go with one of the locos.   Also, I do have some thinner Teflon grease I can try.  I have to check for plastic compatibility.  It's more of a cream consistency actually.  If it's compatible, I'll give it a try. 

Thanks. 


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: DarG on December 28, 2014, 11:12:57 AM
By the way.  Anyone know what the copper motor clips are officially called?   I'm missing one for the bottom (the one with the contact tangs) of one motor. 


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: Len on December 28, 2014, 12:39:06 PM
The bronze clips on top and bottom are technically brush spring retainers. They come with replacement motors, and are no longer available separately. You may find them somewhere that carries parts for old Athearn locos.

Poke around the Athearn 'parts' page a bit, the new motors [ATH84086] aren't all that expensive. You will need the new mounting pads/screw kit [ATH84028], and the 'dog bone' end drive shafts [ATH49060] to fit the flywheels though. Other than that, they are a 'drop in' replacement for the old motors. Not exactly 'can' motors, but better than the old open frame stuff.

Details West makes headlight assemblies, and lenses for them, not the slip in lenses to plug directly into the F7A body.

Len




Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on December 28, 2014, 01:24:51 PM
So Len, will those still work for the purpose I am looking for?  If so, do you have a part # for that assembly?  Thanks again.

Dar, which link did you want me to provide? 
Should not be a mystery why motor did not work w/o copper clip.
I would say no dice on alligator clips.  Too big for the purpose. 
Another suggestion on motor instead of buying new and having to re-purpose to fix old drive components- Ebay.  Look for either a whole loco that has the brass flywheel motor (you did not say how many axles for the one you are working on-this is important bc flywheel size (length) varies depending on number of loco axles) and cannibalize the motor.  You can also get your springs and brushes this way if you chose.  Or, for less $$ but less parts, look for just the motor on Ebay.



Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: DarG on December 28, 2014, 02:35:01 PM
So Len, will those still work for the purpose I am looking for?  If so, do you have a part # for that assembly?  Thanks again.

Dar, which link did you want me to provide? 
Should not be a mystery why motor did not work w/o copper clip.
I would say no dice on alligator clips.  Too big for the purpose. 
Another suggestion on motor instead of buying new and having to re-purpose to fix old drive components- Ebay.  Look for either a whole loco that has the brass flywheel motor (you did not say how many axles for the one you are working on-this is important bc flywheel size (length) varies depending on number of loco axles) and cannibalize the motor.  You can also get your springs and brushes this way if you chose.  Or, for less $$ but less parts, look for just the motor on Ebay.



No, I swapped a clip and brush spring from another motor.  I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but I'm not that dumb   ;)

Yep, found out the clips are discontinued.  I'll check ebay for old motors or maybe clips or a grab bag of assorted parts will show up. 

I was wondering if you had a video link on the motor disassembly but I really don't need it.   Too easy.   That motor now works by the way.  I have no idea why it didn't before but I'm going to assume it was crud on the brushes.  They were bad.

I have some tiny alligator clips that I think would work but gonna get around to trying your spade connector trick.  I have those as well.  I'll also try clipping the brush springs when I get some spares.   


Thanks


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: Len on December 28, 2014, 03:33:21 PM
So Len, will those still work for the purpose I am looking for?  If so, do you have a part # for that assembly?  Thanks again.

If you're just looking to fill the empty hole and get light out, no, the DW part's not what you want. They provide complete headlight assemblies, with shades, MARS light, etc., of specific road types, e.g., Southern Pacific, Nickle Plate, etc., that do not include the lens. You have to get the lens separate, and may have to do some surgery to allow a separate headlight/MARS light LEDs to be mounted.

DW's mfg# on Walthers is 229. Use keyword 'light' to see what they've got.

Len


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on December 28, 2014, 05:44:04 PM
Thank you again for the info Len.  I will pass on the DW and continuing searching for the others.

Dar I know you are no dummy, but just in case we are speaking a different language on the connectors I am referring to, I am going to post a pic from the net.  When I hear "spade" connectors, I visualize the ones I crimp to wires to put under a screw of a power pack.  With the ones pictured, I trim off the portion where a wire would be crimped to using Lineman's pliers, so that I am left with just the rectangle.  I then solder light wire to the "top" of connector were there is lots of  surface to solder to.  I have tricks as well to keep the motor mounts in place if you want to know them.

http://www.autoconsumables.com/electrical-crimp-connector-terminals-semi-insulated-spade-red-female-to-fit-63mm-tab-width-3352-p.asp


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: DarG on December 28, 2014, 08:00:59 PM
Jbrock.   Now worries, I knew we were talking about the female disconnects.  Thanks for making sure we were on the same page anyway.


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: Len on December 28, 2014, 08:54:15 PM
I've found the cheapest place to find what they call, Quick Disconnects, is the local autoparts store. Unlike Radio Shack, the autoparts place sells seperate packs of male and female connectors. And you save the shipping charge, which is often more than the cost of the connectors.

Len


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on December 28, 2014, 09:08:20 PM
Just an FYI; I posted the pic for visual reference, not for promotion of that store (I don't even know or care about the business  name.  It was the best/first pic that came up under an "Image" search).  or any other online store for that matter.  If that was the case, I would have said so. 

Buuuuuuut, since the subject came up, I have bought these at auto parts stores, Radio Shack, Walfart and Home Depot.  No shipping charges.  However, speaking of shipping charges, there is an online store that I do like: MCM Electronics, that I have bought things from (yes, they have these) but I wait until they offer a $6.00 flat rate shipping charge, which happens often and then load up on what I need.  Good place to find Weller soldering tips.


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: DarG on December 29, 2014, 09:59:29 AM
This is off topic but I actually used a Tenma station that I purchased from MCM over a dozen years ago and just died recently. Most of it's use was light production work for soldering passive components in circuit boards that I developed to replace those in some vintage audio gear.  Also saw a lot of repair and even some new builds and plenty of cable and wire soldering.   I just replaced it with the digital display version of the same model.  If I get the 1/2 the life out of the new one it would still make me happy.   I used to buy from MCM all the time.

At any rate, I do have the quick disconnects already on hand, several sizes including .250
I've been looking at some motors on ebay.   Thanks for the warning.  I've noticed the larger flywheel and some 6 axle versions and I'll be careful because I see that the sellers don't always list the specifics.    Definitely going to try your shortened spring idea and see if it improves slow speed performance.        

Good info in this thread.  Really helps.  Thanks again.


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jward on December 29, 2014, 10:10:57 AM
unless things have changed  athearn only had two sizes of motor. the small ones were use in the switchers like the sw7 and sw1500, and the larger ones for everything else whether 4 or 6 axle. there were also two sizes of flywheels, a short one for the switchers and a longer one for everything else.

the biggest problem you are likely to run into is that the newer flywheels have a slot for a dogbone type shaft, and the older ones have a ball for a snap in universal and spline. whatever type you have, you will also need the appropriate worm for them. the two types are not compatable with each other.


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on December 29, 2014, 12:05:08 PM
Dar, I have seen those Tenma units and have wondered about them.  You would recommend I take it?

Captain, the discussion was not about motor size but only flywheel size.  I am sorry, but you are incorrect in saying the same size (really the length) brass flywheel is in the 4 axle diesel as the 6 axle-the 6 axle more often than not, has a longer flywheel.  There are at least 2 sizes of brass flywheels, I would dare say 3 ( but don't have any SWs to confirm 100% even though I think the ones in them are the shortest) when we are discussing the kind of metal flywheel outfitted on the motors Dar has and is working on.  He's is searching for and comparing apples to apples when it comes to the linkage.  No need to worry about worms and such.  If he gets a motor that matches the one(s) he is looking for the parts for, he is all set.  Didn't you say at one time, it has been a while since you bought Athearn?

You are welcome Dar for the heads up.  I would avoid any Ebay seller who comes across as not wanting to cooperate with answering questions or posting additional pics when requested.  A clear pic of the underside of a loco should be mandatory for all sellers.

This gives me reason to ask Dar, what model Blue Box locos are you working on?  GPs? F7s?


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: DarG on December 29, 2014, 02:33:21 PM
GP's mostly.   I think I have one other but cant recall what it is however I do know that part numbers for motors and internals are the same for all.     I believe that I have 5 Athearn BB's in total. 

The Tenma station that was a workhorse for me was the 21-147.  I'm, pretty sure that it was $49 back when I bought it.  Now I think they are close to $80.  It's only real weakness was that it wasn't the fastest station to reach set temperature.  I had no problems with recovery but with the work I mostly did with it, I didn't need something that recovered on the spot.    The only thing I would be leary of is whether they have gone to cheaper internal parts now.     I replaced it with the 21-1590 which appears to be the same unit but with a numerical readout.  It is faster to heat up but that may be because it is new.   It was on sale for $69 when I bought it a few months back. 


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on December 29, 2014, 03:18:50 PM
You should be fine then.  The only difference in the GPs of your motor's era and the F7As motor's in that same era is, as Jeff touched on, the fitting where the worm connects to the motor linkage.  On the F7As it is like a 4 point "cross" that has a plastic "cup" slide over it to complete the driveline.  The motor, mounts, brass flywheel length, will all be the same as the GPs. The GPs the linkage on the worm is a ball, just like at the other end on the brass flywheel.  Even if you end up with an F7A I don't think all is lost, bc that cross piece can be pulled off the worm gear and the ball style can be put in it's place.

Thanks for the scoop on the Tenma.  Good luck with the new one! :) 


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: Len on December 29, 2014, 05:39:39 PM
Depending on the loco/motor combination, you should be able to use either the 1.76" Ball-to-Pin [ATH49060] or 1.39" Ball-to-Pin [ATH48060] drive shafts. Measure your old shafts to be sure which to use. They're listed for specific locos, but as long as the lenth matches they'll work with the new motors in old 'Blue Box' locos.



Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: DarG on December 29, 2014, 06:44:17 PM
Depending on the loco/motor combination, you should be able to use either the 1.76" Ball-to-Pin [ATH49060] or 1.39" Ball-to-Pin [ATH48060] drive shafts. Measure your old shafts to be sure which to use. They're listed for specific locos, but as long as the lenth matches they'll work with the new motors in old 'Blue Box' locos.



So, if I'm understanding this, one end of those matches up with the connector on the flywheels of the newer engines that you linked earlier.  On the worm drive end, those don't look anything like what I have now.  Do those still connect to my existing worm drive somehow or do I need a part to replace on that end as well?


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on December 29, 2014, 07:58:11 PM
I have to say, that some folks, with all due respect, seem to be trying to make this difficult when it is not at all.


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: DarG on December 29, 2014, 09:23:21 PM
It's not a big deal.  I don't need to purchase a new motor.    I've found the bottom clip that was missing from the one motor.   All I'm missing for that one motor now is a brush spring.   I have 4 Athearn BB's, not 5 as I thought.   I know that 3 of the motors run.  I've yet to test the 4th.  Basically, I have the parts for all 4 trains minus a couple of bearings and that brush spring.  I also need some sideframes.   Other than that, I think I'm good.     


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on December 30, 2014, 09:19:33 AM
I know, for some inexplicable reason, Len is fixated on your buying a new motor which is totally unnecessary.  These gold can Blue Box motors are great and damn near indestructible.  So much so, it is extremely difficult and unlikely you can go wrong getting a used one.

In that case Dar, I still say look for a GP model that you can cannibalize all the parts you need from, including the side frames.  They are plastic, no?


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: DarG on December 30, 2014, 09:59:10 AM
Yep, the side frames are plastic.  The bottom pins are broken on most of the ones that I have.  A tiny dab of silicone sealant is what is currently holding the broken ones on.  It works and it's easy to clean up any residual from the outside of the trucks,  but a p.i.t.a to have to do over again if I have to take the trucks apart.   I think that Athearn still offers a couple of the side frames that would fit, they just may not be 100% accurate for the particular loco.   My track is, as someone here called it, the Skyline.  It's about 8 feet up in the air.  You can see if the side frames are missing but you can't see the details, so as long as they fit, they'll get the job done.

Good idea on just watching for deals on used BB's.   I gotta say that the one that I just got running is pretty darn quiet.  Performance at very slow speed isn't impressive but it's a quiet enough runner that I can hear the clickity-clack from the metal wheels on the rolling stock.   Very cool.  I had asked about changing to metal wheels, mostly to help with keeping the track clean.   I picked up one of those bulk Intermountain sets (100 axles).   Not exactly cheap and time will tell if it helps with the track.  But worth it for the more realistic sound alone. 


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on December 30, 2014, 10:29:25 AM
For holding truck frames to metal, I have used an adhesive called E-6000 found at craft stores like Micheal's and Jo Ann's Fabrics.  It is always not on sale, so using a common 40 or 50% off coupon makes it a real deal.  Easy to remove items as well if you end up having to.  This is also my "secret" for securing Athearn motor mounts to metal chassis.  I clean the motor mounts with soap and water, clean grease, oil, dirt, etc from chassis.  Even if those plastic motor mounts are deformed where they fit in the fuel tank holes, you can trim the deformed part away, put glue on the bottom of the mount and just use the nubs to line it up in the holes so the motor is straight in line.  Before doing that, I also clean the area of the chassis where the copper clip tabs make contact with the frame, using Emory paper.  Then before gluing, I make sure the tabs are pointing downward enough to make good contact with the frame.  I use the adhesive bc I have found the mounts themselves loosen over time and this effects contact.  The adhesive keeps things in place and in good contact.  When I have the trucks off, I also make sure to clean and degrease the area around the nub the truck fits on for good contact.  Some have proclaimed this is a week spot for contact-this is bc for some reason, people put grease or lube there-none is needed.  Once I clean, contact is good.  If painted over there, remove paint until bare metal is what makes contact with metal tab of truck.

You are definitely going to see vast improvement with the Intermountain wheel sets.  They are the best of the wheel sets I have bought.  1) they roll great and fit great, especially in Athearn trucks 2) you will see alot less cleaning of the track using them compared to plastic/delrin wheels :)


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: Len on December 30, 2014, 11:30:42 AM
I know, for some inexplicable reason, Len is fixated on your buying a new motor which is totally unnecessary.  These gold can Blue Box motors are great and damn near indestructible.  So much so, it is extremely difficult and unlikely you can go wrong getting a used one.

I wouldn't say "fixated". The first time I mentioned replacing the motor was when you said parts that are no longer available were missing from the one you had. I suggested the A-Line, which I've found far superior to the 'stock' Athearn motors, but you thought it too expensive.

So I poked around, and discovered Athearn offered complete motors for a lower price, but they had the new style drive shaft connectors in the flywheels.

Then you mention finding the missing bottom clip for the motor you had, and it became a moot issue.

After that, someone else mentioned you have to replace the worm gears if you change to the new motors, and I just pointed out that's not necessarily true. There are drive shafts available to go from the new motors to the old worm connectors. Just be sure to get the right length.

At any rate, I'm just trying to be helpful.

Len


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jward on December 30, 2014, 12:13:18 PM
Yep, the side frames are plastic.  The bottom pins are broken on most of the ones that I have.  A tiny dab of silicone sealant is what is currently holding the broken ones on.  It works and it's easy to clean up any residual from the outside of the trucks,  but a p.i.t.a to have to do over again if I have to take the trucks apart. 

since the wheelsets can be easily removed by removing the bottom gearbox cover, there should be no need to remove the plastic sideframes from the truck. the wheelsets have inside bearings similar to an amfleet coach, and they will lift right out with the cover plate removed.



Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: DarG on December 30, 2014, 01:52:38 PM
Yep, the side frames are plastic.  The bottom pins are broken on most of the ones that I have.  A tiny dab of silicone sealant is what is currently holding the broken ones on.  It works and it's easy to clean up any residual from the outside of the trucks,  but a p.i.t.a to have to do over again if I have to take the trucks apart. 

since the wheelsets can be easily removed by removing the bottom gearbox cover, there should be no need to remove the plastic sideframes from the truck. the wheelsets have inside bearings similar to an amfleet coach, and they will lift right out with the cover plate removed.



True ... if they would hold on while doing so.  It's a temporary fix until I pick up some new side frames and I used just enough silicone to hold them on while the loco is running.  I could probably flick them off with a finger.


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: DarG on December 30, 2014, 01:59:56 PM
I know, for some inexplicable reason, Len is fixated on your buying a new motor which is totally unnecessary.  These gold can Blue Box motors are great and damn near indestructible.  So much so, it is extremely difficult and unlikely you can go wrong getting a used one.

I wouldn't say "fixated". The first time I mentioned replacing the motor was when you said parts that are no longer available were missing from the one you had. I suggested the A-Line, which I've found far superior to the 'stock' Athearn motors, but you thought it too expensive.

So I poked around, and discovered Athearn offered complete motors for a lower price, but they had the new style drive shaft connectors in the flywheels.

Then you mention finding the missing bottom clip for the motor you had, and it became a moot issue.

After that, someone else mentioned you have to replace the worm gears if you change to the new motors, and I just pointed out that's not necessarily true. There are drive shafts available to go from the new motors to the old worm connectors. Just be sure to get the right length.

At any rate, I'm just trying to be helpful.

Len


I know you are trying to be helpful and I appreciate it.  You are conflating two different posters comments, mine and Jbrock27's.   I appreciate the suggestions and while we are on the topic,  I am unclear as to how the driveshafts that you posted the model numbers to would work with my existing worm gears.   Going by the photos, neither end looks like it would work with the connections on my worm gears.   I may not currently need a new motor but I would still like to know what I would need to get one to work with what I have ... just in case.   Thanks.


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on December 30, 2014, 08:17:18 PM
I like that word, "conflated" :)  That's one you don't hear every day.

No, I really think fixated is the right word.  New is totally uncessary and just leds to having to modify or buy other parts, also completely uncessary in this situation.  And you're not helping Len when you jumble comments together.  You are not even addressing the right party.  It was Ward, Len, who started down the path of talking about worms, again not necessary.  So please direct your comment about that to him.

Like I said, some seem hell bent on making this into a real session when it need not be.

Dar, you said yourself, you know you don't need a new motor, just some parts.  This is not rocket science, really man.  I know you can do this w/o having another 5 pages worth of this ::)



Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on December 30, 2014, 08:21:39 PM
I am really going to go out on a limb here and guess, that everything preeetttttty much looks like it does in these pics, which I should have provided like 2 days ago when I first offered:

http://www.mcor-nmra.org/Publications/Articles/Athearn_TuneUp.php


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on December 30, 2014, 08:27:32 PM
...and oh look, an Athearn gold can motor...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-scale-motors-for-parts-/271724204064?ssPageName=ADME:SS:SS:US:3160

Getting back to the flywheels; these look like they may be the longer 3/4" ones that are in the 6 axle locos and not the 5/8" ones from the 4 axle ones.  Every other component is THE SAME.  I would ask a seller to measure them, if interested.


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on December 31, 2014, 07:57:59 AM
...I mentioned replacing the motor was when you said parts that are no longer available were missing from the one you had...
At any rate, I'm just trying to be helpful.

Len

Len, I never said I was looking for a motor or parts; I never said anything about any parts no longer being available.

Yes, I think we can all see that your heart is in the right place and you are trying.


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: DarG on December 31, 2014, 11:31:04 AM
I am really going to go out on a limb here and guess, that everything preeetttttty much looks like it does in these pics, which I should have provided like 2 days ago when I first offered:

http://www.mcor-nmra.org/Publications/Articles/Athearn_TuneUp.php

Yes, that link covers my Athearns.   Thanks.   I either saw that link here, previously, or found it in a search.  Either way, I have it bookmarked.

For informations sake, I'd still like to know how those newer shafts would connect to my existing worm gears but it's not such a burning desire that I would have a problem with this thread dying.   ;)

I'll say thanks again to all for the help now in the event that the thread actually does come to an end.    ;D

    


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on December 31, 2014, 12:50:37 PM
No reason the thread should die if you still have questions.

I have a question myself: how did the motor parts go missing in the first place, with the locos sitting in their boxes?
...I'd still like to know how those newer shafts would connect to my existing worm gears...

In my view and opinion they won't, as the locos that you and I have, do not employ the dogbone at one end or the hex shaped keyway at the other end like these newer shafts utilize. 

You're quite welcome, again ;) . I wish you best of luck in your searching but know you won't need it, bc you should be able to find 2 Geeps fully outfitted for what you need and are looking for, for the price of 1 A line motor.


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: DarG on January 01, 2015, 10:26:58 AM
All the locos were in their boxes and still assembled except for 1.   The 1 that isn't complete, only the frame and shell was in it's box.   There was another small box that I dug up that has all the rest of the parts for that loco.  Trucks, motor, wheels axles etc.   The trucks were assembled except for the worm gears and their covers and the wheels were also loose and there are also the bearings sitting loose in the box.   The motor was assembled except for the bottom clip.  Brush spring wasn't in the box and a couple bearings are missing.   I did find the bottom motor clip in another box that contained parts like Kadee couplers and spare coupler springs etc.   Why it wasn't with the other parts, I have no idea.   I probably took the loco apart to clean and never got around to finishing it.   Maybe I lost the brush spring and got frustrated and packed it all up to cool off and never got around to it.   This could have been 10 or 15 years ago because this track has been set up for probably close to 20 years or more and all the Athearns were bought within short order, probably within the first year of first setting everything up.    I have some brush springs and bearings coming which should allow me to complete this loco as well. 

Thanks for confirming that I'm not missing something in regards to that shaft and my existing worm gears. 

Also, I'm going to check out that E-6000 adhesive that you suggest.

Thanks.





Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: Jerrys HO on January 01, 2015, 10:41:06 AM
Wow and Bachmann let this talk about another brand get this far out of whack?
No offense to the posters, just Bachmann as they tend to pick and choose there battles.


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on January 01, 2015, 09:50:11 PM
You're welcome Dar.  I had also sent you a PM this morning with some info attached.  Would hate to see anyone get bent out of shape over our continued, free, but somewhat public discussion here >:(


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: Jerrys HO on January 02, 2015, 07:11:19 AM
You're welcome Dar.  I had also sent you a PM this morning with some info attached.  Would hate to see anyone get bent out of shape over our continued, free, but somewhat public discussion here >:(


Not even going to answer your PM jb.
You know me better than most, I should have not commented on this but I sometimes wonder why Bachmann delete's some posts (some by you jb) talking about other brands and allow others.
I belong to many forum's for trains,planes,and trucks. There are some that only allow there product mentioned and others allow all. You never see them allow some and not others.
Some here bash Bachmann so bad and keep posting away with no recourse.

Does this look familiar...


View Profile Personal Message (Offline)   
 
Re: still need help,,,trying to configure a branch or spur line to park an engine.
Reply #8 on: January 01, 2015, 08:29:15 PM Reply with quote 


I hope this helps CJ.

http://www.zscalemonster.com/atlas/atl-205.jpg

As I said earlier today, before it was deleted for some unexplainable reason, this is simple and certainly very doable.  Don't give up!  Good luck Smiley
 

 
 
 


Title: Re: Spectrum GP30 noise
Post by: jbrock27 on January 02, 2015, 08:33:08 PM
Not even going to answer your PM jb.

Really?  And why not?

You know me better than most, I should have not commented on this...

You're right, I feel I do; and your right, you should not have.

I sometimes wonder why Bachmann delete's some posts... talking about other brands and allow others.

You know you are not alone, we all wonder about that.

I belong to many forum's for trains,planes,and trucks. There are some that only allow there product mentioned and others allow all. You never see them allow some and not others.

Ok, but I don't know what that has to do with anything here.

Some here bash Bachmann so bad and keep posting away with no recourse.

I don't know what this means or what this has to do with this thread.  And what do you mean by 'recourse'?  Do you mean 'repercussions'?

Does this look familiar...

I have no idea what your message is here, except that it shows I took the time to assist someone else with their question.  But somehow, I don't think that is what your intended message is.

I don't know why you feel you have put yourself in the position to act like some Bachmann policeman or spokesman.  That is the job of others who work for Bachmann.  What is is this thread to you anyway?!?

And why have you started 2015 off like this?  Despite all this nonsense, I have no reason not to like you, man. :)

You ever get DCC put in those Bachmann Plus UP F7 units?