I will soon be moving into a larger apartment where I can use the second bedroom for my train layout!
I will be having a lot more room now!!!!
So I am thinking how to best plan my layout, aside form making it larger!
For one thing I want to setup at least 22" curves and some inclines that are much more gradual.
Any suggestions for tables to use? I am not confident making a table myself.
Any general layout suggestions?
thanks
Bill
Are you looking to make a table like 4 x 8 (plywood sheet) or ping pong table (5 x 9) or a set up around the walls of the room?
I was envisioning two tables one either side of the room and then a smaller section connecting the two making a "wrap around" setup. if that makes sense? so in sense both table and around the walls.
Thanks
Bill
HI;
I have an idea that I saw in an old "Model Railroader", called "The Truckee and Western" (July 1967). What this is, is set up sort of like a "Murphy bed"; that is, it is hinged on the floor, and flops down for use. Now this guy, Don Moran, modeled it in TT scale, but pretty much anything HO scale or smaller could be successfully built. When brought to operating position, it was the wall height plus the take-up area (that would be permanently attached to the floor) which would be hinged to the main layout. This could be as wide as you would like (within reason) and when you are done operating, folds up against the wall. The main drawback is that all wiring, track, and places for structures etc.; would have to be "above floor".
Model railroaders are a divisive lot however; and a lot of ideas have been presented, both on this forum, and in the many publications available. Good luck in your new place.
SGT C.
Yes, makes perfect sense. I would suggest using 1/2" plywood for the bases. I used 2 x 4s for legs on mine, but you could probably use 2 x 3s or even 1 bys.
Hi Jbrock27!
I am not good at all at wood work. So I was hoping to just buy ready made tables.
Would ping pong tables work?
thanks
Bill
Yes (see above).
Quote from: billgiannelli on January 03, 2015, 08:16:18 AM
Hi Jbrock27!
I am not good at all at wood work.
Bill
You'd be surprised at how fast you learn when you start building your table. You can find videos on the web and, if you have a local train shop and club, someone will be willing to help by pointing you to books, looking at their table, or even helping you build one.
How much area are you planning to work with? I'm sure you already know, but if you have a table against a wall, it can be hard to reach into corners.
unsupported or flimsily supported plywood tables ten to sag over time. you need to put a good foundation under your base or you eventually won't have a usable railroad. remember, ping pong tables are designed with the understanding they don't have a lot of weight on them. a train layout, on the other hand, has a lot more weight than you would think. trains, mountains, buildings, etc all add up.
a good sturdy table is not that hard to build. I would suggest that you find one of the atlas track plan books in your local hobby shop. they have illustrated plans for tabletops ranging from simple to complex. the simplest ones for 4x8 would require 7 pieces of 1x4 lumber; 2 8 footers, and 5 cut to 46 1/2".......most lumber yards or diy stores will cut those odd pieces for you.
legs can be made from 1x4 and 1x3 lumber fastened together in a 90 degree angle, then bolted into the table frame from each side of the angle.
this will make a table sturdy enough to bear your weight, something a ping pong table would never support.
When I asked here on the HO board, way back when, where I can find a 5 x 9 board, I was told a ping pong table. No one at that time ever mentioned anything about it not being supportive enough for a layout.
If you can find an old Ping-Pong table, with the 3/8" or 1/2" plywood top, it would be okay to use.
The new ones, with the 1/8", or thereabouts, hardboard tops tend to droop and develop waves over time. You could probably use one as a base for 2" pink or blue insulating foam to build a layout on.
Len
I agree using foam board on top would be they way to go, not only to be able to carve some topography and deaden sound, but to bridge across the small gap in the middle of the table. 1" would work as well, no?
1" would work, but doesn't give as much flexibility for river valleys as 2", or even 4", would.
Len
True. The other option at that point would be to build "upwards" on top of the base using additional foam pieces.
Bill,
This may help you in building the table, it is divided into several episodes.
You could also build the top portion and secure it to a cheap ping pong table.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyenCuseToA
Jerry
Although you said you are not good with wood work, it may be easier than you think. Most are not born with these skills and when they start a project they are amazed how simple and fun it can be. We are not trying to build cabinets just a flat piece of wood sitting on some legs that if you put a skirt around it you will never see it. Shoot mine has a lot of flaws, that's what they make planer's and sander's for ;D.
I've always like that series of vids!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-LxY-P2n-g
One thing I could add to the conversation would be to add casters to the bottom of the legs. This would make it possible to move the table or tables out from the wall so you can access the back side of the layout. Also you mentioned that you would be in an apartment and this would help to lessen the wear and tear on the apartment floor and walls.
bill how big is the room you are going to use?
Bill-
I remember when the General Manager granted me territorial rights to an extra bedroom for a train room. What a wonderful feeling! And now you are the recipient of the same great news. Congratulations!
And now, not from envy, I swear, a small monkey wrench in your plans: Four-by-eight tables and ping pong tables are rarely the best for layouts which have their own rooms. An around-the-walls arrangement almost always provides more and better raw area for a layout, longer mainline runs, superior operations and better access. Such layouts are often less expensive to build, too. May I urge you to at least consider an around-the-walls layout?
And some help, too. Check any recent MR, RMC or MRN and you'll find an add for a company t(he name escapes me right now) which makes modular pieces for assembling model railroad frameworks. I suspect the system is more expensive than using raw lumber but you may be willing to pay for the convenience. However, I can assure you that there is very little complexity in building comparatively narrow shelves along a wall with products from a lumber yard. You could conceivably use the prefab units for wider areas and stick-built narrow (anything up to 18" or so) shelves to connect the more developed or scenic parts.
Whatever you do, please let us know how things are going.
-- D
If you have a whole room to work with, I highly recommend:
Kalbach Publishing's "Basic Model Railroad Benchwork, 2nd Edition", Item#: 12469, ISBN: 9780890248362
Particularly the section on L-girder benchwork, which is very flexible, great for around the room layouts, and less expensive than a 4x8, as you don't need to a big sheet of plywood.
A description from the Kalmbach web site: http://www.kalmbachstore.com/12469.html (http://www.kalmbachstore.com/12469.html)
If you LHS doesn't have it, you can order it at a book store using the ISBN, or through Amazon using the item #. Kalmbach also offers a number of other books on different aspects of the hobby, e.g., scenary, railroad structures, layouts, bridges, locomotive detailing, etc.
Len
I really dislike carpentry. I am very nervous about power tools. My uncle cut off a finger in his shop and I had a skil saw kick back on me once.
I built a long shelf layout on the 36" high version of these:
http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=64014-40955-MP-OT00187&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=50147628&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1
Never cut a board anywhere to have my layout using these.
You don't have to be a carpenter to have a model railroad. These work fine, can be reused anywhere later on, and allow a layout that, if designed right, can be demobilized and out of the house in a couple of hours ...... and rebuilt somewhere else at little or no cost.
You can use stock lengths (4', 6', 8', etc.) of 1x2 and 1x3 for building L-girder tables and usually not have to cut anything.
Worst case, a small hand saw like this http://www.homedepot.com/p/Stanley-FatMax-14-in-Back-Saw-17-202/203789674 (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Stanley-FatMax-14-in-Back-Saw-17-202/203789674) works fine on 1x2 & 1x3 boards.
Len
Trainman 203,
I bet that got a little pricey.
As far as being concerned about cutting wood, there are other options like your local supply store will cut to size for you. All you have to do is assemble. Cost a little more than DIY but cheaper than $60.00 shelving units.
Just get your dimensions and take them to your local supply house such as Home Depot or Lowes and Ace (are there any left?) and they can cut and help you on way's and supplies needed to assemble.
Although most layouts are built with 1x2's 3's and 4"s, I preferred 2x4's so when my train is not in operation I can park my cars on top ;D. (just kidding sort of, I have my r/c collection sitting on them right now).
BG did state in his first post on this topic that he wished to utilize 22" R curves.
I good reminder by Jerry that it is easy peasy to have lumber cut for you at a lumber supply or home improvement store. Many folks overlook they have this option available to them.
I love hand tools and power tools :D
Not a whole lot more pricey than if you included buying all those needed power tools, Jerry. Plus, when I move soon, I can take it all with me. The second home around, my benchworh will nearly if not completely cost free.
Another thing to remember is that the original poster said he lived in an apartment, I think. Who wants to live next door to a wood shop with all that carpentry going on for days and weeks?
Some more pluses. I got to keep all my fingers. I didn't have sawdust all over the house. I got my layout surface ready in two evenings.
I paid about 40 bucks each for the units at 36 " high. I have eight of them. Used twice, with no power tools, this is certainly cost competitive with standard wood benchwork. And, since the layout is in the house, the tables look like furniture. How much l-girder bench work truthfully looks like furniture.
I've seen guys build fine cabinetry below their layouts. I suspect most modelers aren't that good at it.
I'm more than satisfied with what I have. It isn't for a room filling permanent huge pike. But it's pretty good for small apartment type deals.
Quote from: Trainman203 on January 04, 2015, 02:14:38 PM
...a wood shop with all that carpentry going on for days and weeks? I got to keep all my fingers. I didn't have sawdust all over the house.
Days and weeks?!? You make is sound as though this would be going on this long, non stop. Seems a bit overboard. I don't think
Bill said he was moving to an assisted living facility :D Is no one who lives in apartment allowed to make any noise for a short period of time? What about these same types of noises that occur in close proximity to a residence?
I have all my fingers too ;D
And I find a dust pan, brush and vacumm are great for getting up sawdust ;D
Trainman203
I am not saying there is anything wrong with your waybut I feel it can get pricey.
Most if not all my lumber was free from construction sites that if asked will gladly give you the scraps or leftovers. They may even cut some to size for you for free!
I am lucky to have all the tools needed in my possession or readily available to me and I still have all my fingers and toes!
I usually make all cuts outside and assemble inside even though it is in my detached garage I hate sawdust mess.
There is also the option of modules which most modelers doing train shows do for assembly and dis assembly ease, which can be adopted to the apartment lifestyle.
All suggestions are welcome so Bill can make the choice he wishes to go and will have some pro's and con's to read about.
Jerry
Brock in my experience layouts take some time to build especially if you have a job, a family, and other interests. I thought Bill said he lived in an apartment. I wouldn't want to live next door to a guy doing heavy carpentry, then possibly finish carpentry, on the other side of a 2x4 wall. I've lived in apartments next door to people who'd complain if your pet rock sneezed. If you are in your own home it is better of course.
Dust gets into furniture, window blinds, on top of every little ledge, top of casework, I mean everything. My layouts have never been in dedicated rooms I could close off. I've lived through two long term on going renovations in my house. Aint doin no mo work. Or making any more. Or fooling with power tools, the saw kick back was enough once.
You folks that like tools and making work for yourselves, have at it. Or, even better, come over and build my next layout! There's room for everyone to have fun in model railroading however they find it. Mine comes in running the railroad rather than getting ready to run the railroad.
Pay for my train (not plane) ticket and I am yours ;D, I love to travel. Now the meals have to be to my liking as I like spicy food.
Did your pet rock sneeze too!
TM,
Brock in my experience layouts take some time to build especially if you have a job, a family, and other interests.
Gee, things I wouldn't know anything about.
I thought Bill said he lived in an apartment.
You're right.
I wouldn't want to live next door to a guy doing heavy carpentry, then possibly finish carpentry, on the other side of a 2x4 wall. I've lived in apartments next door to people who'd complain...
I would not categorize this work as 'heavy carpentry'. 2 x4 walls? Sounds like lax building codes by you. No insulation either? I am sorry you have lived near people like that.
You folks that like tools and making work for yourselves, have at it.
I think it is sad that is how you view it. I think of it as accomplishing things and being self relient. You must spend a lot of dough a year in services, such as having light bulbs changed for you and such. Must be nice.
Or, even better, come over and build my next layout!
I'll pass. Something tells me you're not a great host. Plus, I would be afraid to make too much noise. And I don't really like Florida much. I bet Jerry on the other hand, is a great host! :)
Mine comes in running the railroad rather than getting ready to run the railroad.
I know; you're on record that you don't like maintenance either.
Now, no one get me wrong, Bill's an adult (at least I think so since he said he has a Fiance) and gets to make big boy decisions for himself. I am not pushing him to use tools if he does not want to. That is totally up to him. I just hope he remembers to look both ways before crossing the street ;)
Quote from: jward on January 03, 2015, 10:52:55 PM
bill how big is the room you are going to use?
Hi All!
As usual I love all the discussion and info!!!!
The room is 8.5' by 15'.
I won't be able to run the layout along the walls as there is closets on either side of the room.
So I plan to a table centered in the middle.
thanks
Bill
Quote from: jbrock27 on January 04, 2015, 03:31:49 PM
TM,
Brock in my experience layouts take some time to build especially if you have a job, a family, and other interests.
Gee, things I wouldn't know anything about.
I thought Bill said he lived in an apartment.
You're right.
I wouldn't want to live next door to a guy doing heavy carpentry, then possibly finish carpentry, on the other side of a 2x4 wall. I've lived in apartments next door to people who'd complain...
I would not categorize this work as 'heavy carpentry'. 2 x4 walls? Sounds like lax building codes by you. No insulation either? I am sorry you have lived near people like that.
You folks that like tools and making work for yourselves, have at it.
I think it is sad that is how you view it. I think of it as accomplishing things and being self relient. You must spend a lot of dough a year in services, such as having light bulbs changed for you and such. Must be nice.
Or, even better, come over and build my next layout!
I'll pass. Something tells me you're not a great host. Plus, I would be afraid to make too much noise. And I don't really like Florida much. I bet Jerry on the other hand, is a great host! :)
Mine comes in running the railroad rather than getting ready to run the railroad.
I know; you're on record that you don't like maintenance either.
Now, no one get me wrong, Bill's an adult (at least I think so since he said he has a Fiance) and gets to make big boy decisions for himself. I am not pushing him to use tools if he does not want to. That is totally up to him. I just hope he remembers to look both ways before crossing the street ;)
I may be engaged by I never said I was an adult!!!! :)
Dang Brock... Sorry I said anything. I'm not that bad a guy. I just don't like power tools. Nothing wrong with that. If carpentry and layouts are a holy inseparable combination , tell me, I'll never mention alternative layout construction again.
I did give Bill a nice alternative to standard wood bench work. Maybe I shouldn't have questioned convention. There's no bible says you have to saw wood to build a layout. Not everyone has to like doing that to be model railroaders. Lighten up man, give us a break, please. Especially the personal digs.
Oh I did do my share of carpentry, I owned rent houses for 15 terrible years. Gave up plenty of weekends doing what I didn't want to do. Like I said, ain't doin no mo .
Also I don't live in Florida, don't know where you got that. i could say more but won't.
Enough of this jousting, I'm done. I got a local freight ready to pull out of town. Model railroading really is fun, really it is.
I guess I am not invited :'(. And to think I was making big plans to go to the lumber yard.
Jerry I bet I live closer than 5 miles from your house. You live in Metairie, don't you?
I kinda figured you were close. don't ask how. What part.
thank you all so much for your replies and info!
so to start another heated debate with an innocent question:
what sort of wood sheeting should I use for the table top? I want it to be stiff enough.
what grade, thickness, etc would you suggest?
thanks
Bill
Hello, gave my suggestion on this 6 hrs ago ;D (actually it was yesterday ::))
Well put. your getting the hang of it Bill. It's all in fun. Those who don't like it don't read it.
I use 1/2'' plywood with 1 1/2 foam board.
As usual I love all the discussion and info!!!!
I know, where can you go for this much entertainment this cheap :D
I may be engaged by I never said I was an adult!!!!
You live in Arkansas Bil? ;)
TM, it's all good. A bit of tongue and check ;) I know you are not a bad guy. And no, not everyone who has a layout, has necessarily built it themselves or in conventional fashion (I am waiting for Les to state he built his 1st N scale layout in a desk drawer...) I did not even click on your link but I am sure it offered an alternative for those who are all thumbs. Being that way around models trains just strikes me as an odd combo. How do you keep from breaking stuff? How do you fix or repair anything?
Trust me, I am light and I am cutting breaks. But you're the only one I am giving a hard time to, so there is no "us".
I got FL from your mention of Gulf Coast. That's great though, cause now I would not mind comin to visit ;D
Really JB, you'll visit TM and not me. I'm over you.................OK I'm good.
Quote from: billgiannelli on January 04, 2015, 10:31:50 PM
thank you all so much for your replies and info!
so to start another heated debate with an innocent question:
what sort of wood sheeting should I use for the table top? I want it to be stiff enough.
what grade, thickness, etc would you suggest?
thanks
Bill
if you use plywood, use 1/2" or thicker. I would stay away from things like osb, particle board, homasote, drywall, etc. you can use foam insulation board on top of the plywood if you so desire. this can be carved into hills and ravines.
I am trying to keep the construction as simple as possible for you. myself, I lay everything out on white pine board, with the pieces cut to fit the situation. this requires some basic woodworking skill, but yields a layout sturdy enough for me to walk on if need be. plus, I build my own track by hand, and pine is soft enough to drive those tiny spikes into, yet hard enough to hold them in place.
you had mentioned placing your table in the center of the room. you will have more area to work with if at least one side is against a wall. with a table up to 5 feet wide, you can still reach everywhere on the table if one of the 5 foot sides is against a wall.
Hey, when did the offer come from you Hoss (Jerry? )
Thanks again all!
So another stupid question, what if I merely used a 4' x 8' wooden sheet?
What are the limitations of those dimensions?
thanks
Bill
The main limitation is most people can only reach 3ft, and that's a stretch. So you access around at least three sides needs to be factored into your space requirements. It also limits you to 22in radius curves max. Since radius is measured center-to-center, 24in radius would be hanging off the table.
Are you looking to run long trains around, or more into switching operations? If switching operations, you'd be better off to have your local home supply store split the 4'x8' into two 2'x8' or four 2'x4' strips. Use the strips for an around the wall switching layout.
Len
Hi Len,
Thanks for the explanation!
I can't do around the wall as there is a window and 2 closets we need access to.
So I want to center the table in the middle of the room.
thanks
Bill
I always hate when I have to repeat myself bc folks don't pay attention :D
Slightly off topic....
Near causeway and airline, Jerry. Right behind the Premier Fitness Center.
I had a previous unfortunate life on this forum. It was a reflection of a very bad time for me. I'm reformed now. The Bach Man understood and is a gracious host to forgive, and let all this carrying on and acting up go on in his house.
You ever go to the Crescent City Model Railroad Club? I don't because I'm always out of town on their meeting night and I'm not really into the timetable/paperwork/mainline operation thing they are into. They are nice guys though, were very welcoming when I visited last year. When I retire soon I'll probably join.
TM, your name isn't Paul is it?
Yes I attend their open houses every year, they lost over half their members though. I heard it was because they switched to DCC and the older fellows had too many engines to convert.
It is a fabulous layout though and they keep adding to it.
Anyone interested in viewing our local club it's here.......
http://www.ccmrc.com/
It's "Pat" actually.
Yes that layout is beautiful. When I went last year one end was ripped out for rebuilding and improvement. They run on NCE DCC, same as me, and I could go there and operate but there's a few reasons I don't...... 1. They converted to an all diesel railroad, took out the roundhouse and turntable. I'm strictly a steam guy and I don't think they'd be wild about me bringing 2-8-2's, 2-10-2's and 1940 freight cars in. I bought those big engines for a club I'm in over in Ms, but it's been torn down and they are too big for my branch line layout which likes a 2-8-0 at best. 2. They are into carded operation with fast clocks, timetables and all ...... Way too much for for a guy like me who likes one mixed train daily no longer than 7 or 8 cars and no paperwork , and the biggest reason, my better half has already retired and gone to Pass Christian so I burn rubber every Friday at 3:31 getting over there..... About 3 hours before they meet. Well I've only got 18 months till I retire so maybe then I'll join them then. The Ms club is building a "temporary" layout. I did the track plan for but its already been but it's deviated from, screwing up my point to point operation idea.
I know you've got a lot more ambitious layout than mine but heck you oughta come see it sometimes. I have a friend in Gulfport who is my steam southern shortline clone and he comes over every month or so for a little paperwork-free "ops".
Quote from: billgiannelli on January 05, 2015, 06:07:03 AM
Thanks again all!
So another stupid question, what if I merely used a 4' x 8' wooden sheet?
What are the limitations of those dimensions?
thanks
Bill
you still need some sort of framework underneath it to prevent it from sagging and warping over time. it is easier and less frustrating to do it right the first time, than to try to fix a poorly supported layout after the fact. as I said before, a basic support structure made out of 1x4 pine is cheap and easy to build. 2 8 foot sections for the long side rails, and 5 46 1/2" cross members spaced on 24" centers. when done it resembles a wall section before the drywall is added. it can be done assembled with basic hand tools, a screwdriver, a hand brace with 1/8" drill bit, a square an about 2 dozen #8 screws 1 1/4" long. once done, you add legs and fasten your plywood sheet on top and you're done. it will take a couple hours worth of your time to set up then you never have to deal with it again.
Bill, As Jeff noted you need bracing under the plywood. Now if you are looking for something that you can store against the wall till the kids come over or in your free time have fun, I would suggest building the top portion like in the first video I posted, without the legs that way you have the bracing as suggested. The only problem is the scenery will be limited on what you can do.
I would also suggest on trying to extend it to a 5x8 or better yet 6x8 for larger radius's.
Visit sieversbenchwork.com. Precut 1" X 4" pine pieces. Various lengths & widths.
Easy to use instructions. All the necessary nuts, bolts and screws. I joined together 5
2' X 4' sections in half an hour. Very sturdy and stable. One poster was right. If you decide on a basic 4'X8' (or any other dimension), get the lumber dealer to cut 2'X4'
sections. Easier to transport and handle.
I have a 6'X10' L-shaped figure 8 layout "in the middle of the room".
Once you get past this part, go to the thread being done by "Saved1".
Quote from: billgiannelli on January 05, 2015, 06:23:22 AM
Hi Len,
Thanks for the explanation!
I can't do around the wall as there is a window and 2 closets we need access to.
So I want to center the table in the middle of the room.
thanks
Bill
Just a question Can you use your basement or attic for a layout... If space in a room with limited space already is present a basement or attic can afford more room & allow you to build a bigger layout instead of just a 4x8 sheet of plywood.... I used my the entire Back Wall of my Basement "IE I had to stop 4 foot short & leave space for my Heating Unit or I would of went the extra 4ft to build my Layout.... My layout is 17ft long x 6ft wide 2 Track Main / With 3 Track Interchange & with a small Passenger siding Track with terminal / & a 9 Track Yard is my layout & in the middle of 2 1/2 Build on my Layout so far Looking to be complete with it by Feb or March of this year... Good Luck with your Build
In my experience, most "apartments" don't come with attic space, and any basement space they may come with, is just big enough to act as a small area for storage. But Bill can clarify whether his new apartment includes these options or not.
Hi all!
It is an attic 2 bedroom apartment. I will setting up the 4' x 8' in the second bedroom which is 8' x 15'. It is anyones guess as to whether I will be able to go beyond the 4' x 8' as negations are ongoing as to how much of the bedroom I will get for model trains!
Bill
Negotiations can be tough. You may need to bring in a mediator :D
the square footage i am getting to devote to model trains keeps getting smaller!
I need a fellow modeler as a mediator!
If the words "sewing area" enter the conversation, start thinking in terms of a 2'x6' N-scale switching layout. Or renting space elsewhere for a layout.
Len
lol yes! I know!
so far there have been plans to place furniture in the room and to paint the 4' x 8' to match the decor!!!!
I am getting my 4' X 8' but I have not disclosed my further plans of adding a work bench in one corner and an additional layout against the back wall....
Employ Doc as your mediator, he is a great orator!
If you need some "muscle", employ Jerry(HO), he likes to bring the pain!
hmmmm
can't I have both of them!
Quote from: billgiannelli on January 08, 2015, 05:07:33 AM
the square footage i am getting to devote to model trains keeps getting smaller!
I need a fellow modeler as a mediator!
Any Smaller you wont be able to build a layout....
Quote from: billgiannelli on January 08, 2015, 06:28:33 AM
hmmmm
can't I have both of them!
Yeah you can have both but you will have to wait till I pull Jbrocks head out of his ... !
As Len stated, watch out for the sewing area.
don't feel bad, my area is 30 sq ft, in a corner of the living room. the dog lives underneath, along with a couple of bookshelves. when we got a new couch last year, I had to take it halfway down just to get the3 couch in the front door. a smaller area just makes you think more creatively.
...again, with bringing the pain, proving my point.