Bachmann Message Board

Discussion Boards => Large => Topic started by: grumpyjim on January 04, 2015, 07:44:17 PM



Title: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: grumpyjim on January 04, 2015, 07:44:17 PM
Long time HO guy who had to put the trains away due to moving. Recently acquired a Bachmann 9670 train set. A 4-6-0 steam engine, Pennsylvania tender and two different passenger cars. Got enough track to make a circle with small straights. Also a Basic Train Engineer ART-5480. I imagine this is an old set. Hooked everything up and doesn't work. No voltage at track and I pressed every button a couple of times.

I just want to set up an overhead track loop in my workshop. Individual train control is not needed.

Any hints on how to trouble shoot the controller. It lights up when plugged in, ansd the handset lights up when any button is pushed.

Any help appreciated. Thanks.

Grumpy Jim


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: Chuck N on January 04, 2015, 09:09:09 PM
Get a volt meter and check out the output of your power supply, then we'll go from there.

Chuck


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: grumpyjim on January 04, 2015, 10:16:47 PM
Will do.

It is my guess that the power supply can supply variable voltage to the track as controlled by the hand held. Instructions say attach power supply to track and push "fast". I assume that the track voltage is 0 until you push fast. Pushing fast does nothing. I used a battery voltage meter for 9v batteries and no change in track voltage.

As you suggested will use "real" voltmeter tomorrow.

Thanks.

P.S. I was just hoping to have a simple loop with constant voltage. (Realize I need controller to set voltage first.)


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: Chuck N on January 04, 2015, 10:33:33 PM
I am not familiar with what you have, but most Large Scale trains use a variable DC power supply.  HO  power supplies usually top out at 12-14 volts.  Most Large Scale PSs go to 18-22 volts.  Also you will need one, for reliable operation that puts out more than one amp.  3 amps would be a useful minimum for a single motor engine and a few cars.  More amps are better.  Most of us use 10 or 15 amp power supplies.  I have a train that pulls about 7 amps. F3AB(2amps per engine, 1amp/motor) and 6 lighted streamliners (0.5 amp/car).

Grades and diameter of your curves will add to the power draw.

Chuck


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: Wade Colyer on January 04, 2015, 11:24:22 PM
Hi,

 You have to hold the fast or slow button down for a while for it to work. Here's a link about it.

http://personalweb.donet.com/~paulrace/trains/special_offers/power/t_e_basic.htm

Wade


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: Seaboard Air Line Fan on January 05, 2015, 02:26:22 AM
What transformer are you using?

I'm currently using an ART-5470 Train Engineer Set (Transmitter is ART-5473, Receiver is ART-5471), it requires a 12-24 vdc filtered transformer (separate item).

I'm actually using an old power supply that came from a laptop computer.

Are the batteries fresh in the transmitter?

Even with the transmitter not connected to the track you should see a light blink on the transmitter.

Bob D.


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: grumpyjim on January 05, 2015, 12:50:23 PM
TESTS SO FAR:

Disconnected wires from track. Hook up to digital multi-meter. Set on DC. Press FAST button. 20.6 DCV to track connectors. Both direction switches work. (<==  ==>) I see polarity reversed with either switch.

Using BASIC TRAIN-ENGINEER ART-5480.

Press and hold SLOW button. No change in voltage then goes to 0 DCV.

EMERGENCY STOP works. Immediately goes to 0DCV.

With voltmeter attached and reading 20.6 DCV, I connected to one locomotive wheel on each side of train. Scrapped wheels to get good connection. Reading 20.6 DCV, there is no movement of motor.

With any button push the little light comes on.





Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: Seaboard Air Line Fan on January 05, 2015, 01:00:27 PM
Could be nothing more than a burnt wire, but these things aren't simple to take apart/put back together to get to the motor to see if voltage is getting to it.

I got mine off E-Bay and I was going to take it apart anyway to repaint it.  It's a good thing because both wires to the pilot were burnt in two.  Rewired the pilot and all worked fine, but the engine was like a puzzle as far as assembly/dis-assembly goes.  Once knowing how it's done, it's not so bad.

The bottom cover plate can be removed, but I recall there's a couple of pipes that need to be removed and the 2 wiring pins that go from the pilot to the main wiring terminals can be tricky putting back in once the bottom plate is removed, but you should be able to get to the motor once it's out of the way.

Bob D.


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: grumpyjim on January 05, 2015, 01:02:34 PM
Will remove bottom of locomotive to check wires.


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: grumpyjim on January 05, 2015, 01:09:37 PM
http://personalweb.donet.com/~paulrace/trains/special_offers/power/t_e_basic.htm

Smoother Power at Low Speeds - AristoCraft/Crest Train Engineer systems use something called "pulse width power" that delivers full voltage to the locomotive, even at slow speeds, so the trains run smoother. This also means you don't have to have your train "flying" around the track to keep it running like you do with some toy trains.

How can full power be given to the locomotive, if the voltage to the track has to be lowered to slow down???


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: Chuck N on January 05, 2015, 01:16:26 PM
Since you have a meter check the resistance through the engine.  If there is a broken wire there should be infinite resistance.

I'm not familiar with your specific engine, but some Bachmann engines have a three position slide switch, LS-off-NMRA.  This switch is usually behind the smoke box door.  If you find it make sure it is not in the off position.  This switch changes the polarity to the motor.  Most Large Scale engines run in the direction of LGB engines (LS).  On NMRA the engine will run in the opposite direction to most large scale engines.

Does the headlight come when you apply power?

Chuck


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: grumpyjim on January 05, 2015, 02:13:49 PM
No headlight.

Are the all six driver wheels AND all 4 pilot wheels powered?

Have 2 wire connector connected from tender to locomotive, (9 DC in tender), Found switch to turn on/off tender sounds. Can locomotive run without tender connected?

Will look for LS-off-NMRA switch.

Will run AMP test across driver wheels left and right sides.

All locomotive wheels except rear set of driver wheels show open circuit.

Thanks.


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: grumpyjim on January 05, 2015, 02:26:10 PM
Found simple on off switch behind smoke box door. Was set to on. Worked switch back and forth several time. Still nothing.


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: grumpyjim on January 05, 2015, 04:03:25 PM
OK, bottom plate off locomotive. All plastic gears intact. All wires seem fine and connected. Motor not seized. Noticed only front set and rear set of driver wheels (4-6-0) and rear set of pilot wheels draw power from the track. Driver wheels make contact with sides of driver wheels. Will further investigate this. I will clean inside of wheels for better contact.

Front set of drive wheels contain pulse switch for sound. Only makes short contact at 12 and 6 o'clock as the axle revolves. These wires run to tender to operate sound. All sound is controlled with 9 VDC battery. No track power to sound whatsoever. No track contacts on tender. So tender is not needed to operate locomotive. There are only sound wires going to tender. Wiring diagram shows two more wires to tender to operate tender light with track power. Not on mine.

Only have off/on switch behind smoke house door. Seems like no more secret switches.

Going to start fussing around with multi-meter. See what I can find.

This was to be just a simple setup. Hook it up. Run train in circle. Getting complicated.



Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: grumpyjim on January 05, 2015, 04:19:10 PM
Motor turns. Connectivity through motor. Connectivity from wheels to internal wiring. Looks like issue is beyond me. Combined with the TRAIN ENGINEER problem with the SLOW button, looks like I'm done. Can't win them all.

Anybody with ideas????


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: Chuck N on January 05, 2015, 04:35:28 PM
In your first post you mentioned that you were an HO guy.  Do you have an HO power supply that you can hook up to your track?  At 12 volts the engine should move, slowly, and the headlight should come on.

You could also turn the engine over and touch the wheels with power leads from the power supply and see what happens.  That should tell you if you have a problem with the engine or not.

I use an old HO power supply on my work bench to test engines when I'm working on them.  They don't put out enough volts for running on the layout, but they are great for testing.

Chuck


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: Seaboard Air Line Fan on January 05, 2015, 08:42:12 PM
Just for giggles, swap the wires going to the track and see what happens.  I had to connect the red (hot?) wire to the engineer side of the track to get things moving.

I think the blurb "delivers full voltage to the locomotive, even at slow speeds" doesn't seem correct, at least for my TE system (there's no part of my TE system inside my loco to act as a receiver), not sure about the set you have, but I know some TE sets had receivers that went into the loco.  My laptop transformer/power supply puts max volts to the TE receiver and through PWC sends signals/voltage to the track to "smoothly" run the engine.

Bob D.


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: Chuck N on January 05, 2015, 09:00:42 PM
I am probably wrong, but I think that PWC does put full voltage on the track.  But the controller determined an on off cycle.  At slow speeds there is more off than on.  As the throttle is increased, the off becomes less and the on becomes more.   The frequency is still fast enough such that we can't see it.

That's my guess.  That may be why some sound systems don't like it.

Chuck


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: Seaboard Air Line Fan on January 06, 2015, 07:24:52 AM
Chuck,

You may be right, never really looked into it other than to measure the voltage on the track once, but I did see an increase/decrease in track voltage so I just "assumed" the voltage was varying.  I'll check again now that I'm curious  ;)

What you suggested about using an HO transformer is a good idea, that'll eliminate any question about power getting to the track.

Bob D.


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: Chuck N on January 06, 2015, 08:29:04 AM
Bob I just googled PWC and came up with this.

http://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/allkb/294E67623752656686256DB800508989

Chuck


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: Wade Colyer on January 06, 2015, 10:46:39 AM
Hi Again,

 Here's more info.

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips1/te_programming.html#versions

Wade


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: Loco Bill Canelos on January 06, 2015, 10:59:24 AM
Jim,

If you try the locomotive with your HO Power pack and the locomotive runs OK, then the simple solution is to get an original dc power supply like the one that came with the set, or a cheap MRC DC power pack and just hook it to the track and run. Just dump the Train Engineer or sell it on Ebay and quit messing with it.  My MRC power pack from my HO days runs the Bachmann Large Scale 4-6-0 just fine.   Check the AMPs on your HO supply if it is one AMP or higher it will be fine for your simple around the room layout. 

Don't get to frustrated.  The key is testing the loco with something different than the TE, if the loco runs OK, you will know the problem is the TE.

Hang in there,

Bill


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: Seaboard Air Line Fan on January 06, 2015, 01:58:04 PM
Thanks Chuck!  All I can remember from my days in electronics was 0 and 1  ;D

Looking at the link Wade provided I have the 10 amp TE handheld unit (1st handheld shown) and the receiver that's the 2nd one shown (the one with the auto type fuse).

I would go with Bill's suggestion and try a HO dc power pack and go from there.  My TE set has worked fine since I bought it but it's got to be 20+ years old now.  I did have to repait one of the battery connections that broke inside the handheld but all is fine (DO NOT leave batteries in these things!!!).

Bob D.


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: grumpyjim on January 07, 2015, 01:14:06 PM
Wade great web site for TRAIN ENGINEER. Thanks.

My BASIC TRAIN ENGINEER currently works as follows:

PUSH FAST: output of 20.6 DCV
PUSH and HOLD SLOW: no indication on voltmeter, then after a few seconds shows 0 DCV.
PUSH either direction ARROW: polarity changes, shows + or - 20.6 DCV.
PUSH EMERGENCY STOP: shuts off voltage immediately.

ERGO: 20.6 DCV constant sent to track. SLOW seems to have issues.

This I call my issue #1.




Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: grumpyjim on January 07, 2015, 01:19:06 PM
ISSUE #2

Locomotive does not run when 20.6 DCV applied directly to any set of pickup wheels (left and right sides).

Continuity is present through motor when applied directly to motor.

All locomotive wires seem to be connected.

Looking more and more as a static display.


Title: Re: New guy and completely lost.
Post by: grumpyjim on January 07, 2015, 01:25:49 PM
ISSUE #2

Looks like I failed to perform a crucial test. Put 20.6 DCV directly to motor. Will advise.