So I finally have my table built using hardboard for the top / surface. I laid the cork board track bed and now I'm trying to nail the track down with track pins, problem is they are so thin that they don't penetrate the hardboard and instead end up bent.
So I thought I'd just drill the hole for the pin, but problem is I can't seem to figure out what size bit I would need since they are extremely tiny pins.
Anyone know if they are standard size?
Thanks!
Tinier than found at the local hardware store or big box store. Check out Micro Mark, they have sets if small drill bits that you don't find elsewhere, that can be used for modeling as well as for what you are looking for.
How long are the nails you are trying to use? And are you actually nailing them, or trying to secure them using needle nose pliers? What kind of wood for "hardboard"?
They are Peco Streamline 14 pins and are approximately 9/16" long. I've tried both nailing them and securing them with needle nose pliers. The hardboard is basically the pegboard stuff from Menards without the holes in it. Its 1/4" thick.
The Peco pins are designed for cork over homasote or extruded foam, they aren't intended to penatrate plywood. That's why they are called "pins" rather than "nails". A quick search for "track nails" will bring up several companies that offer them in a size for HO & N track that can be driven into plywood.
If you use nails, be careful not to drive the head tight against the track ties. Too much pressure on the ties will cause them to bend slightly, narrowing the gauge of the track enough to cause problems. You want the nail head about business card thickness above the ties.
Len
Len,
Fxguy said he's using "pegboard stuff". It's probably some type of Masonite which is too hard for track nails, unless you predrill each hole. Perhaps the track should be glued to the roadbed with an adhesive caulk. Just my two cents worth.
Chuck
That is what I thought you were going to say you are using based on what you had said in an earlier post about benchwork FX.
Agree with Chuck. Another option bc of the type of hardboard you are using is to use hobby screws. Put the hole in between ties so the head of the screw rests on the 2 ties and apply the same caution to not tighten the screw down so much that crushes the ties too far downward. A screw like a #3 Phillips Truss Head may work for ya. The screws have a low enough profile that if you stick to putting them in the middle of the track, they should not interfere w/anything.
Ooops! It was almost 1am, and I missed the "hardboard' comment. Even so, Peco pins are strictly for soft under support surfaces, e.g., foam, homasote, etc.
Len
This is good info.
Just had another thought for ya, FX.
Maybe you could try this; can you cut down the length of the pin to be just long enough to get through the cork? What I am thinking is you can trim the end using a pair of wire cutters (sometimes called 'dykes') or linesman's pliers or something similar. Cut at an angle so you still have somewhat of a point to go into the cork.
Thanks for the great info! Indeed the "hardboard" is Masonite, I was blanking last nite and couldn't remember the name for it! Lol. I've got two plans so far. The first is using the nails I used for the cork track bed I hammered that in to make a hole then used the pins which seemed to work pretty well and stay tight in place. The other is purchasing some Athens track nails and using them with pre drilled holes. Not sure why I'm not hot on the idea of gluing the track down ?
FX, check the latest issue of Model Railroader. They are building an N scale layout and they are gluing the track to the roadbed.
Chuck
fx,
I do hope you have something else under that Masonite. it is not strong or thick enough by itself to make a good surface for your railroads. Masonite can and does warp. you'd be better off using something thicker like 1/2" plywood.
Jeff,
Even with one by four stringers underneath? I have one by four framing spaced every 24 inches
Tim
yes, even with 1x4 underneath. the Masonite is not strong enough to support itself in between the stringers, plywood is. I have said this before to others and i'll say it again. there is no substitute for building right the first time. it is better to overbuild than to underbuild as you have done. eventually, you will have to go back and correct what you have done, and the longer you wait to do it the more work you will have to do. better to do it right before you permanently lay track, than to have to rip everything out to correct a mistake later. 1/2" plywood isn't that expensive, especially compared to the buildings and scenery you're likely to damage later. plus the added frustration before you get to the rebuild point, when all your carefully laid track kinks or comes apart because of a poor foundation.
Can't disagree with any of that.
Grrr.... ::) lol. I got the Masonite because it's light and I could fit 2 x 4 sheets in my tiny Cavalier. It was also cheaper for that than plywood in same size sheets. Oh well, guess I'll have to get the plywood before I proceed any further. At least all I've done was attach the cork track bed which won't be too hard to rip up and redo.
I had another question but it escapes me at the moment.
if you've already laid out the roadbed on the Masonite why not laminate it to the plywood?
btw, Masonite does work well for control panels and fascia around the layout edges.
I have seen masonite used for facia; even soaked in water first to be able to shape to any curvey contour the benchwork has. I have only ever seen it at a mninum of 1/4" though thick like what FX has. They make it thinner than that, to be able to be used as a control panel?
You could also laminate your hardboard to 2" foam base (either the blue or pink stuff). This will give it the support it needs and keep it light weight.
And using an adhesive caulk to attach your track is the best method and easily comes up if you make changes. Caulk also works best for gluing down the cork.
No matter what the substrate, I would definitely NOT nail the track down.
Model RRs are subject to maintenance (example: changing a defective turnout), changes (example: adding a siding) and expansion. Having nails holding the track usually means that the ties will be damaged either during installation (nails driven too far and either breaking the tie or changing the gauge) or be destroyed when it is time to make a change or addition.
As suggested above, put the track down with an adhesive that can be removed later. You do not need much adhesive to hold the track in place, as the forces are very low.
You can use the 'pins' (not nails) to hold the track in place while the adhesive dries, but even this is not necessary if you use a contact adhesive.
Happy RRing,
Jerry
So using a caulk adhesive to glue it to the cork road bed is better? I was afraid of doing that because I didn't want to permanently attach it. I'm starting out with building the Cripple Creek Layout from HO Start to Finish but figured eventually I will want to rearrange things or do something else entirely.
The biggest frustration at this point is trying to find the time to go and get the plywood. Anything bigger than a 2' X 4' piece and I have to use my wife's car which means its no longer a stop at the hardware store on the way home from work deal anymore.
I do remember my question from earlier though! If I completely redo the cork bed, are there any tips or tricks to penciling in the layout for the center of the track?
did you know you can get many diy stores like lowes to cut the plywood for you at a modest cost? you could buy the full sheet and have them cut it into 2x4 panels that would fit in your vehicle.
jb, I use 1/8" Masonite for control panels. it also makes a good backdrop with its smooth side out.
Thank you Jeff, 1/8" would work. I will have to check HD for it again; I am pretty sure the last time I was in there the only 1/8" stuff they had (at least that I saw) was Luan.
FX, nails vs adhesives is one of long standing debates. You can find places like the NMRA site that suggests using nails or rail spikes to secure track and other sources that talk about using adhesives. I have been told white glue will work to hold down cork to wood and to remove, it just needs to be whetted. I know some like to mark the outside of the tracks to set the lines for the cork, but I have been told the best way is to take a Sharpie (or other marker) and make a dot in between the ties in the center of the track to mark you center. Rather tedious, but I am told it works.
The dots along the center line work best. You only need a couple for straight areas, then use a straight edge to connect them. When you lay the cork, it's easier to keep the vertical edge of the first half strip aligned with the center line as it's put down. Once it's in place, just butt the second strip against it, no hunting for the outside line needed.
When you lay the second strip, offset the end a couple of inches from the first strip, so there's no joint completely across the cork. Having a track joint directly above a cork joint that goes completely across can become a trouble spot. Wrap some sandpaper around a block of wood, and sand the top of the cork smooth after it's all down to get rid of uneven spots. Vacumn the dust up, and you're ready to lay track.
Personally, I use a dab of Aleen's Tacky Glue, available at most craft and fabric stores, on the cork every so often to hold the track until it's ballasted. Map pins between the ties keep the track from moving until it dries. Once dry, remove the pins and the ballast is set in place with diluted glue, the tracks not going anywhere.
Len
All great suggestions! Thank you all! What about marking the centerline of curves ?
More dots and connect freehand. Or take an old yardstick and drill small holes for a pivot point and pencil to make a trammel beam to draw curves with.
Len
Ok, so I got 2 - 4'x4' pieces of 1/2" ABX Plywood for the track subsurface. Replace half of it tonight and have the other half ready to go. So I know Len mentioned not having a track joint and cork joint directly above each other, but I want the layout to be able breakdown into two sections for storage.
So how do I do the joints in the track and cork to be able to come apart? I know with the layout already that the existing joint does not fall directly above the joint in the bench.
Ah! From the earlier posts I thought this was just a regular 4x8, even if the plywood came home in pieces.
With a layout designed to break down, about the only way to avoid the track joint over cork joint problem is to use a removable "fitter" piece across the section joint. Something along the lines of, ==][== , where a piece of sectional track is added across the joint as the sections are put together, and removed when they are seperated. If you search for HO layout module building techniques, you'll find various ideas for using alignment pins on the ends that join together, and hinges with removable pins, to keep the sections lined up and locked together.
Also, don't forget to make provisions for seperating the wiring between sections if it's designed to break down. This can be as simple as jumpers between terminal blocks on each section, or more complex involving using various types of connectors.
Len
http://ntrak.org/man2pg.pdf
the link shows the way ntrak does things. they are an n scale modular club, but their ideas apply equally well to HO.
what they do is to run the roadbed right up to the ends of the layout, and the track to 1/2 section of the end. a full section of track bridges the tables, half on each side of the gap. this section should have the ties trimmed back on one end so that a rail joiner can slide completely onto the rails. once the track is in place the joiners are slid back onto the adjacent track section to make the connection. they also use electrical connectors to jumper between tables, not relying on the rail joiners to conduct across the gap.
over the years their system has proven itself to be reliable and simple, and has been used by ntrak chapters all across the country.
Len thanks for the idea. Never thought to split the difference since I'm going to have to cut track anyway to fit the joint. I've already used the hinges on each side to lock the modules together but there is still quite a bit of "flex" over the joint. I'll try and snap some pics tonight if I get a chance. It seems each end of the table in the 8 ft direction can flex upward about a 1/4". I haven't actually drilled through the two pieces of wood yet to lock them together, just the hinges on each side.
fxguy : when you get the mating parts properly aligned and fastened dowel the mating sections but don't glue the dowels in . This should allow you to reconnect the sections more easily . John2
W/o a pilot hole, track spikes will bend once they hit the 2nd layer of the "sandwich" of a piece of plywood.
After much advice on here I decided to use adhesive caulk instead of the pins.
Was going to nail mine but I used hot glue on my EZ track and it has worked out pretty good.
Just be careful around the turnouts ;)