Hello, Folks
I was wondering if any of you have ever come across the problem of certain locomotives cutting out on Bachmann turnouts. I have a Walthers Proto F3 A/B locomotive that runs fine except when it crosses certain turnouts, not all of them, and usually at slow speeds. The loco tends to lose power and lurch, the lights and sounds go off, but then it regains power and continues to move.
I have three other locos that perform perfectly, so I know it's not the turnouts but something about the locomotive. I returned the first one I bought, thinking that the loco was the problem, but the replacement does the same thing, although not as much as the previous one.
If you have any insights or suggestions, I'd certain appreciate them.
Thanks,
Keith
Keesu - I have a F3 Proto, DCCw/sound, I would assume it shares the same guts as the F7. New model 2014. I think you are correct in that the B'mann switches are not the problem. The Proto trucks have very little clearance and do not move, "wobble" if you will, much at all. They actually were hitting the side steps of the shell and the rear truck was touching the coupler cast in place mounting. It would stall out on my Peco switches all the time. Check yours out. Dave
I'm not sure why, but I find the Proto locos are a lot happier with powered frogs. So I don't have a lot of Proto locos.
Len
Quote from: DAVE2744 on April 15, 2015, 03:55:24 PM
Keesu - I have a F3 Proto, DCCw/sound, I would assume it shares the same guts as the F7. New model 2014. I think you are correct in that the B'mann switches are not the problem. The Proto trucks have very little clearance and do not move, "wobble" if you will, much at all. They actually were hitting the side steps of the shell and the rear truck was touching the coupler cast in place mounting. It would stall out on my Peco switches all the time. Check yours out. Dave
Yep, Dave, I noticed the same thing when I compared the clearance to that of my other locomotives. It's funny, though, that today when I ran the loco again, I didn't have the same problem, just a very slight hesitation at one point, but that happened only once. It's also interesting that it doesn't do this on every turnout, just a couple of them.
I don't understand why it seemed to lose power but continue to run and then come back to life. I'll admit up front that I'm an rank amateur when it comes to things like this, but I have enough experience to employ the process of elimination. I envy your command of terminology!
In any case, it's good to know, in a strange way, that I'm not the only one in this situation. Thanks so much for the input.
Keith
Quote from: Len on April 15, 2015, 10:16:47 PM
I'm not sure why, but I find the Proto locos are a lot happier with powered frogs. So I don't have a lot of Proto locos.
Len
Len,
I think I'm starting to agree with you about Proto locos. I have back ordered the Capitol Limited set but am having second thoughts if I have to go through this frustration again. As I said in another post, though, the loco worked almost perfectly today, the moody devil. Thanks for your help.
Keith
For what it is worth:
You new guys should take some time to learn the mechanics and tendencies commensurate with this hobby. I say this not so much because there is required reading, or anything like that, but so that problems like this could possibly be solved by taking a minute and looking in the right place for the right thing. From what I take from this, some of the older "vets" here could stand to do likewise. Learning about the hobby from the mechanical/electrical standpoint is essential for the ultimate goal we are all setting for ourselves.
Rich
SGT C.
Hi, Keith,
There is a possibilty that something is shorting out, but more than likely it is poor power pick-up by your loco, causing an "open".
Non-powered frog turnouts rely on the (frog-side) wheels that are not over the frog to do a good job of picking up power.
If your wheelbase is shorter than the frog, there will be a moment when all wheels are over the non-powered (dead) frog, causing a stall or hesitation.
This usually happens on higher numbered turnouts (which naturally have longer frogs).
Check your loco for good power pick-up:
1.) Turn the loco over in a padded cradle.
2.) Use an Ohm-meter (one of the functions of a Digital Multi-Meter, or DMM) set to its lowest Ohm range
to check for continuity between all pick-up wheels on the same side of the loco.
Wheel-to-wheel resistance should read near zero Ohms (less than 2 Ohms?).
3.) Repeat for the pick-up wheels on the other side of the loco.
Dirty wheels can cause these problems, too, so clean your wheels.
Another possibility, some turnouts have rivets holding (and transferring power to) the point rail that can loosen and lose continuity over time.
You could disconnect your power pack from the rails and check your point rail continuity with your Ohm-meter.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Edit: added Italics for grammar and clarification
It may be helpful to remove the body shell and run your loco through the turnout. This will at least tell you if interference between the truck and some part of the body is causing the problem. If side steps are interfering with truck swing, you can thin the steps with a mill file or gently bend them outward.
Les
Quote from: keesu on April 16, 2015, 12:46:40 AM
I don't understand why it seemed to lose power but continue to run and then come back to life. I'll admit up front that I'm an rank amateur when it comes to things like this, but I have enough experience to employ the process of elimination.
Keith
you are running this loco on dc right?
proto locos, like the athearns they are based on, have flywheels on the motor. these enable the locomotive to "coast" over some dead spots, and also simulate somewhat the sluggish response of a real locomotive. this would be why your loco seems to lose power but keep running. the momentum of the flywheel is carrying it forward.
Quote from: jward on April 17, 2015, 01:37:52 PM
Quote from: keesu on April 16, 2015, 12:46:40 AM
I don't understand why it seemed to lose power but continue to run and then come back to life. I'll admit up front that I'm an rank amateur when it comes to things like this, but I have enough experience to employ the process of elimination.
Keith
you are running this loco on dc right?
proto locos, like the athearns they are based on, have flywheels on the motor. these enable the locomotive to "coast" over some dead spots, and also simulate somewhat the sluggish response of a real locomotive. this would be why your loco seems to lose power but keep running. the momentum of the flywheel is carrying it forward.
I think I forgot to mention that I'm running the loco on DCC and the turnouts are also DCC. I see what you mean about the fly wheel and momentum. Last night I ran the loco at a very slow speed over every turnout and noticed that it stopped and restarted over almost every one of them. I ran my other locos the same way without any trouble.
Quote from: Joe Satnik on April 16, 2015, 08:24:55 AM
Hi, Keith,
There is a possibilty that something is shorting out, but more than likely it is poor power pick-up by your loco, causing an "open".
Non-powered frog turnouts rely on the (frog-side) wheels that are not over the frog to do a good job of picking up power.
If your wheelbase is shorter than the frog, there will be a moment when all wheels are over the non-powered (dead) frog, causing a stall or hesitation.
This usually happens on higher numbered turnouts (which naturally have longer frogs).
Check your loco for good power pick-up:
1.) Turn the loco over in a padded cradle.
2.) Use an Ohm-meter (one of the functions of a Digital Multi-Meter, or DMM) set to its lowest Ohm range
to check for continuity between all pick-up wheels on the same side of the loco.
Wheel-to-wheel resistance should read near zero Ohms (less than 2 Ohms?).
3.) Repeat for the pick-up wheels on the other side of the loco.
Dirty wheels can cause these problems, too, so clean your wheels.
Another possibility, some turnouts have rivets holding (and transferring power to) the point rail that can loosen and lose continuity over time.
You could disconnect your power pack from the rails and check your point rail continuity with your Ohm-meter.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Edit: added Italics for grammar and clarification
Thanks for the suggestions, Joe. I forgot to mention that the turnouts and loco are both DCC, if that makes any difference. I noticed that the loco stalls and restarts precisely at the point at which the wheels are over the frog and the point blades.
I'm wondering if I'd find the same problem with an Athearn F3, which I considering buying after I sell the Walthers.
Keith
Keesu - Here is something to try to isolate your problem. Run the loco as you did, very slowly, and let it stall. Do nothing more at that point. Do not change any control inputs, leave the throttle as is. Take a straightened paper clip or a very fine screwdriver and lightly slide it along the same rail as the frog is on, up to the opposite wheels on that same rail. When the clip touches the opposite wheels ( on the same rail as the frog ), I'll bet the loco fires right up. Remember, the right side wheels of the front and rear truck should be picking up power together on these models. Same goes for the left side. You might have a bad wire connection to the truck that was not on the frog. Also, I have noticed that different materials used for the wheel rims plays a huge part in the quality of the electrical transfer from rail to wheel. I actually find most of my B'mann locos are much better at this, and I own several different brands of locos. The Proto locos are fine runners, so don"t give up too soon. Good luck, Dave
Quote from: DAVE2744 on April 17, 2015, 09:57:39 PM
Keesu - Here is something to try to isolate your problem. Run the loco as you did, very slowly, and let it stall. Do nothing more at that point. Do not change any control inputs, leave the throttle as is. Take a straightened paper clip or a very fine screwdriver and lightly slide it along the same rail as the frog is on, up to the opposite wheels on that same rail. When the clip touches the opposite wheels ( on the same rail as the frog ), I'll bet the loco fires right up. Remember, the right side wheels of the front and rear truck should be picking up power together on these models. Same goes for the left side. You might have a bad wire connection to the truck that was not on the frog. Also, I have noticed that different materials used for the wheel rims plays a huge part in the quality of the electrical transfer from rail to wheel. I actually find most of my B'mann locos are much better at this, and I own several different brands of locos. The Proto locos are fine runners, so don"t give up too soon. Good luck, Dave
Hi, Dave
Thanks for the suggestion. The problem is that the loco doesn't completely stall; it just slows down and then stops very briefly, then the lights go off and sound resumes when the loco starts moving again. I think I'm ready to give up.
I do have one more question I'm hoping you or someone else can answer. On the underside of each Bachmann DCC turnout and crossover, there's a little wire with a plug on the end that's not hooked up. There's a place to plug it in right under the frog. I've never plugged any of them in because they arrive in the package unplugged. Today, I plugged in the wire on one of the turnouts and the loco didn't stall after that. When I plugged it in on the large crossover--a #6 left crossover, the loco completely stalled and wouldn't run through the crossover until I umplugged that little wire. The same thing happened on a #6 right turnout.
I guess my question is this: What function does that little wire serve?
Thanks,
Keith
Keith, do you have the ability to temporarily switch the loco to run on DC, run it, and see if it behaves the same way? That may help narrow down where the problem is.
If you search the forum, you should find info on what that wire does.
Hello again Keesu, I'm not familiar with the type of switches you have. If the frog of the switch is metal, my guess is that the wire is used for power routing ( frog takes on correct ( same ) power as the moveable point rail that is aligned with the frog). I'm surprised ( ha ha ) that there was no documentation in the packaging on how to use that wire.
Even though you have a situation with the switch, I think you still have a problem with the loco. The wheelbase is long enough that the other set of trucks, the one not on the frog, should have been supplying the alternate route for power to loco. Test your loco by putting a very thin piece of paper under both wheels on one side of a truck. You should not have any interruption in power. Repeat for all four sides. If you do lose power, the truck wheels at the other end of the loco, same side, is not passing electricity, ( poor pickup from wheels, bad wire connection at truck, bad wire connection at pc board ). Just think of all the new knowledge you will have gained when you work through all this. It will be rewarding, Dave
Dave,
Great troubleshooting tips and explanations. (Paper under the wheels on one side of the truck.)
I'm so used to using an Ohm-meter, I can't think of ways to troubleshoot without one.
Thanks.
Keesu,
Follow Dave's latest "paper" troubleshooting tips to the letter.
These will help you find your loco's bad pick-ups rather quickly.
Turnout theory and troubleshooting:
Crossovers are made up of 2 turnouts, and have 2 frogs, 2 wires and 2 terminal posts (blades?).
Make sure that the left frog's wire isn't plugged into the right turnout's terminal post, etc.
The turnouts have a built-in electrical switch (moved by rack-and-pinion gears, IIRC)
that energizes the terminal post (blade) under the turnout for the frog wire to plug into.
None of the 4 rails that approach the frog should be touching the metal frog,
so when the frog wire is disconnected, the frog should be
"electrically isolated" (not have a connection to anything).
When working properly, the built-in-switch should connect (energize)
the terminal post (blade) in the following manner:
Route Selected: Left Right
Blade connected to: Right Stock Rail Left Stock Rail
The stock rails are the two outer-most and longest rails of the turnout.
A common failure mode of the EZ-Track turnouts is to have the rack-and-pinion gears jump a tooth.
When that happens, the blade will always be connected to one stock rail, and never the other.
In that case, one route will work correctly, the other will cause an electrical short.
The cure is to open up the turnout and put the gear teeth back to where they belong.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Joe - I nave never seen a EZ switch from B'mann, but your explanation is perfectly clear, great documentation, Dave
Keith, here's a video demonstration of using a meter on the Ohm's (resistance) setting to check the wheels on a Bachmann S4 (in addition to having some other info you may not need). Even though your Walther's Proto F3 may not have wipers, the principle is the same. Good luck, I hope this helps:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7uV239HwXQ
Quote from: jbrock27 on April 18, 2015, 07:38:45 AM
Keith, do you have the ability to temporarily switch the loco to run on DC, run it, and see if it behaves the same way? That may help narrow down where the problem is.
If you search the forum, you should find info on what that wire does.
No, I don't think I can. It looks as if that little wire does provide power to the frog, but I still can't figure out what affect that has other than causing, at times, locos to stall unless I disconnect it. The Walthers loco that started this discussion struggles over turnouts even with the wire unplugged.
Quote from: DAVE2744 on April 18, 2015, 02:28:44 PM
Hello again Keesu, I'm not familiar with the type of switches you have. If the frog of the switch is metal, my guess is that the wire is used for power routing ( frog takes on correct ( same ) power as the moveable point rail that is aligned with the frog). I'm surprised ( ha ha ) that there was no documentation in the packaging on how to use that wire.
Even though you have a situation with the switch, I think you still have a problem with the loco. The wheelbase is long enough that the other set of trucks, the one not on the frog, should have been supplying the alternate route for power to loco. Test your loco by putting a very thin piece of paper under both wheels on one side of a truck. You should not have any interruption in power. Repeat for all four sides. If you do lose power, the truck wheels at the other end of the loco, same side, is not passing electricity, ( poor pickup from wheels, bad wire connection at truck, bad wire connection at pc board ). Just think of all the new knowledge you will have gained when you work through all this. It will be rewarding, Dave
Dave,
I use Bachmann EZ Track DCC turnouts.
I placed paper under the wheels exactly as you suggested, but the loco didn't lose power. And my other locos don't lose power--ever--when going over the Bachmann turnouts; only the Walthers loco does, but it never cuts out on any other section of track.
Thanks for the suggestions and, yes, I do view this as a learning opportunity;)
Keith
Thanks for your reply Keith, but I am surprised bc many DCC installed/equipped locos, provide the option to switch back and forth between running on DC and DCC.
Was this loco bought new?
Quote from: keesu on April 20, 2015, 02:49:16 AM
Quote from: jbrock27 on April 18, 2015, 07:38:45 AM
Keith, do you have the ability to temporarily switch the loco to run on DC, run it, and see if it behaves the same way? That may help narrow down where the problem is.
If you search the forum, you should find info on what that wire does.
No, I don't think I can. It looks as if that little wire does provide power to the frog, but I still can't figure out what affect that has other than causing, at times, locos to stall unless I disconnect it. The Walthers loco that started this discussion struggles over turnouts even with the wire unplugged.
If you read the turnout packaging it states not to use the black wire to power the frog when running DCC. Had to remove all mine.
Quote from: jbrock27 on April 20, 2015, 08:17:42 AM
Thanks for your reply Keith, but I am surprised bc many DCC installed/equipped locos, provide the option to switch back and forth between running on DC and DCC.
Was this loco bought new?
Hi, J
Sorry for the confusion. Yes, I bought loco new and I can switch to DC, but that's a moot point now that I have returned the loco for a refund. I really do appreciate your help, though. Thanks.
Keith
If you read the turnout packaging it states not to use the black wire to power the frog when running DCC. Had to remove all mine.
[/quote]
Hi, Jerry
I read every word of the paperwork that comes with the turnouts and found nothing about the black wire. I then turned over one of the turnouts and found the answer printed right there on the bottom! It reads: "Metal frog power connection: To power the metal frog, make the one-wire power connection. Please note that this power connection is not possible with plastic frogs, and that it only facilities smoother operations of locomotives with shorter wheelbases. The turnout itself will operate correctly whether or not the frog is powered."
After all this time, the mystery is solved...except for the fact that connecting the frog didn't really help with the Walthers loco. In fact, it wreaked havoc with my other locos, which have a longer wheel base. Even if the F3 had worked with the frogs plugged in, I would have had to unplug them to run other locos.
As I said in a previous post, I've returned the Walthers loco and ordered an Athearn F3. If that one doesn't work, then I'll have to abandon Bachmann turnouts altogether.
Kudos to Model Train Stuff (MB Klein) for allowing me to return two different locos.
Thanks again.
Keith
Keesu,
This is straight from the pakage....
Powering the Frog
Recommended for analog operation ONLY. NOT recommended for DCC operation
as a short circuit may occur when operating in DCC that could damage your locomotive.
This can be found in the part's service and instructions section under HO.
Dear All,
I'm not sure of the difference of DC vs. DCC (an AC-like signal).
A quick short could occur if the wheels are too wide and the wheel coming off the frog
touches both the stub rails, which are close to one another just after the frog.
It may be that a quick short occurs on DC too, but the momentum of the train just carries it through.
A quick short might be enough to "mess-up" a DCC command, or blow a quick acting DCC breaker.
The only other possibility is inductive or capacitive coupling of the signal is somehow
increased with the frog attached, which is a bit of a stretch,
as the signal frequencies are not that high.
Hope this doesn't confuse.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Quote from: Jerrys HO on April 22, 2015, 05:55:53 PM
Keesu,
This is straight from the pakage....
Powering the Frog
Recommended for analog operation ONLY. NOT recommended for DCC operation
as a short circuit may occur when operating in DCC that could damage your locomotive.
This can be found in the part's service and instructions section under HO.
Hi,
I think there's a little more confusion here. It looks as if you're referring to the regular analog turnouts. I'm using DCC turnouts, which are, of course, designed for DCC operation. I tried to upload a picture of the turnout packaging, but I kept getting a message saying the upload folder is full, whatever that means.
Keith
Keith
Kieth,
If you are talking about the one's with the decoder installed then yes we were on different wave length's ;D.
The other one is accompanied with the switch controller with green wiring harness, which can be used for dc or dcc operation. This is the one I am familiar with. I powered my frogs as I went along with no shorting issues but when I went to the yard the shorting occurred, since then I removed the wire from the frog in all yard turnout's. I run DCC.
Jerry
Quote from: Jerrys HO on April 23, 2015, 07:49:47 AM
Kieth,
If you are talking about the one's with the decoder installed then yes we were on different wave length's ;D.
The other one is accompanied with the switch controller with green wiring harness, which can be used for dc or dcc operation. This is the one I am familiar with. I powered my frogs as I went along with no shorting issues but when I went to the yard the shorting occurred, since then I removed the wire from the frog in all yard turnout's. I run DCC.
Jerry
Right, Jerry, I'm using the ones with decoders installed. I've learned never to plug in those little wires!
Keith
Hello, Folks
I thought I'd bring this discussion to its resolution by saying that I received my new Athearn Santa Fe F3 A/B set today and things went as I had hoped: I ran it numerous times, backwards and forwards at various speeds over every Bachmann DCC turnout, and the little baby met every challenge without a hitch. It even sounds much better than the Walthers loco.
Thanks to all of you for your help.
Keith