hello!
What do I need to convert an old Lionel train set (mid/end 70's) to Bachmann's "E-Z couplers" ???
The couplers on the Lionel train set are on the "truck" instead of under the chassis/frame of the car...
http://s49.photobucket.com/user/Martin_Leclerc/media/100_9670_zpsn4uuco8z.jpg.html
http://s49.photobucket.com/user/Martin_Leclerc/media/100_9668_zpseslmhp0b.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2
I am not a fan of sticking knuckle couplers whether they be EZ Mate Mark IIs or Kadees, into Talgo style trucks like these are. So, my suggestion is to mount Kadee coupler boxes to the body of the cars. You can chose to either then use EZ Mate Mark II couplers in the Kadee box or Kadee couplers, depending on what style coupler box you chose to use. To embark on this great adventure I recommend you get hold of a Kadee Coupler Height Gauge (I like the #206 bc it is insulated in the event you put it on the track with power on). While many folks use the existing trucks by just cutting off the part that holds the horn hook coupler, I do not. I prefer to replace the current trucks with regular trucks and buy metal wheel-sets to fit said trucks. Part of the reason, is using the existing trucks does not allow you any height adjustment at the trucks. To replace these trucks and create a hole to mount a screw to hold the new trucks in place, you will have a choice of materials. Some like to fill the bolster hole with epoxy or JB Weld and tap for a 2-56 screw. I prefer to use 2 sizes of styrenne white tubing, 1 fits the hole, the other piece goes into the first piece, then I tap the styrene for the 2-56 screw. Model glue works well to glue the styrene.
While you are doing all of this, it is advisable to dissemble the shell and add weight to the cars bc they are under weighted. One of the best methods, cheapest methods is to use a white glue, like Tacky or Elmer's and glue pennies onto the existing car weight as close to directly above where the trucks are as possible. Look to NMRA standards to get cars to better running weight.
Want to know more, have questions, just ask. :)
I'm into miniatures since 1996... but a newbie in train set even if I had a set when I was a kid...
So I'm not scared to use plastic glues, puttys, knifes, files and such...
I'm not the "trowing away" kind of guy...
I'll have to check your explanations... when the kids are asleep...
By the way, what's "NMRA standards"
So best method: replace trucks and mount couplers Under chassis... using a Kadee Heigh gauge... so I might need to add a filler of some kind (plastic card or else) to get the right height for the couplers...
Thanks jbrock27... I'll check things out and see if I'll tackle that project... It is for my 7 years old kid...
I'll keep you posted...
Save the old trucks, you can get a couple of dollars for them on e-Bay or Craig's List. There are Lionel HO "collectors" out there looking for original trucks to restore cars they found at flea markets, etc., to "original condition". The reality is, there are only a few Lionel HO locos that are worth anything. Cars generally fall in the used Tyco/Mantua price range.
Over the years I've converted dozens of these cars, and found the following very useful:
Kadee:
262 Low profile Whisker Coupler Draft Gear Box and Lid. Comes in a 10pk, available from Walthers or direct from Kadee if your LHS doesn't carry them.
211 Gear Box Shims. If the car sits too high, place these between the car and coupler box. They were designed for the old #5 coupler box, and have 'ears'. Just use a 262 box as a guide, and trim them off with an X-Acto knife.
208 Red fiber washers .015" thick. Place between truck and car body if it sets too low.
209 Grey fiber washers .010 thick. Same as 208, just a bit thinner.
206 Coupler & trip pin gauge, insulated. The 205 is metal and causes "bad things" to happen if the power is on the track.
256 Acetal Screws 2-56 x 1/2". For mounting boxes to caboose decks where the mounting hole may come through. Easy to clip off the excess flush with the deck top and paint over.
237 Trip Pin Pliars. For adjusting the uncoupling trip pin. Regular needle nose pliars will do in a pinch, but tend to nick the pin. Or you can use round nose jewlers pliars available at most craft shops.
239 5-prong "Gripper". For picking up small parts and starting screws.
Kadee trucks. Listing at http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/HO-Scale%20Trucks.htm (http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/HO-Scale%20Trucks.htm)
I use them because they're easy to get where I live. I usually swap the wheels out for Intermountains on a caboose, as they are set up for adding lights. Kadee's are not.
Not Kadee:
NMRA HO Standards Gauge. For checking many things, especially wheel gauge. Available from Walthers, item number 98-1.
2-56 Tap. My preference is the one made by K&S Engineering in a T-handle. Available from Walthers, and possible a real hardware store (Forget Lowes & Home Depot).
I've used the JB Weld and styrene tube method of filling in the truck holes. Both work, it's more a matter of preference and how easy it is to get the material in your area.
Len
NMRA = National Model Railroad Association. Over the past half-century-plus, they have played a key role in the development of standards and recommended practices to help make model railroad items interoperable between manufacturers products. You'll find information about suggested model weights (among other things) on their website: http://www.nmra.org
I was just checking messages...
thanks for feedbacks... I'll check in détails tonight...
was thinking: am I looking at this the wrong way? I though Lionel didn't exist anymore and found there site last night...
maybe upgrade current Lionel couplers ... are they compatible with Bachmanns E-Z couplers?
I'm about 90% certain that today's Lionel only makes O-scale and S-scale (American Flyer) models. Their HO-scale line was never a major part of their sales - they were selling a brand, rather than a product.
Lionel has changed hands several times, but they're still around. Their HO production lasted 10 years, 1957 - 1967, but they couldn't compete against Atlas, Bachmann, etc., etc., and focused on their O/O-27 lines after 1967.
Original Lionel couplers are the "horn hook" type, which are not compatible with knuckle couplers. Whether EZ-Mate, or anyone else's. Their wheel sets are not very free rolling either, which is why it's best to change to body mount couplers and newer trucks.
Len
Quote from: Len on July 22, 2015, 12:07:24 PM
Save the old trucks, you can get a couple of dollars for them on e-Bay or Craig's List.
If you sell on either of those sites.
Quote from: Len on July 22, 2015, 12:07:24 PM
The reality is, there are only a few Lionel HO locos that are worth anything. Cars generally fall in the used Tyco/Mantua price range.
Many would agree, as do I. But this has not stopped me from converting these cars or TYCO, Life Like, old Bachmann, AHM, IHC or Gilbert. A cost/benefit analysis should be considered as many modern cars can be had for a good price after shopping, with these amenities.
Quote from: Len on July 22, 2015, 12:07:24 PM
262 Low profile Whisker Coupler Draft Gear Box and Lid. Comes in a 10pk, available from Walthers or direct from Kadee if your LHS doesn't carry them.
211 Gear Box Shims. If the car sits too high, place these between the car and coupler box. They were designed for the old #5 coupler box, and have 'ears'. Just use a 262 box as a guide, and trim them off with an X-Acto knife.
208 Red fiber washers .015" thick. Place between truck and car body if it sets too low.
209 Grey fiber washers .010 thick. Same as 208, just a bit thinner.
Agree
Quote from: Len on July 22, 2015, 12:07:24 PM
206 Coupler & trip pin gauge, insulated. The 205 is metal and causes "bad things" to happen if the power is on the track.
I am always glad when someone of
Len's stature, agrees w/me. ;)
Quote from: Len on July 22, 2015, 12:07:24 PM
256 Acetal Screws 2-56 x 1/2". For mounting boxes to caboose decks where the mounting hole may come through. Easy to clip off the excess flush with the deck top and paint over.
237 Trip Pin Pliars. For adjusting the uncoupling trip pin. Regular needle nose pliars will do in a pinch, but tend to nick the pin. Or you can use round nose jewlers pliars available at most craft shops.
239 5-prong "Gripper". For picking up small parts and starting screws.
Agree
Quote from: Len on July 22, 2015, 12:07:24 PM
Kadee trucks. Listing at http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/HO-Scale%20Trucks.htm (http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/HO-Scale%20Trucks.htm)
I use them because they're easy to get where I live. I usually swap the wheels out for Intermountains on a caboose, as they are set up for adding lights. Kadee's are not.
I find Kadee trucks/wheel-sets to be kinda expensive compared to Accurail trucks (buy depending on type of truck I am seeking) and Kadee wheel-sets which I find to be a better price point. If I want to live it up, I get Intermountain wheel-sets instead.
Quote from: Len on July 22, 2015, 12:07:24 PM
NMRA HO Standards Gauge. For checking many things, especially wheel gauge. Available from Walthers, item number 98-1.
Agree, a good tool to have while not entirely necessary to modifying cars.
Quote from: Len on July 22, 2015, 12:07:24 PM
2-56 Tap. My preference is the one made by K&S Engineering in a T-handle. Available from Walthers, and possible a real hardware store (Forget Lowes & Home Depot).
My preference is a Kadee tap that also comes with 2 drill bits, found for a great price on Ebay. I would also point out that I find Walthers to be more expensive than Ebay or even AMAZON to find many of the above mentioned items. Also, sheet styrene can be used in the same manner as the Kadee shims mentioned above, cut to the size needed and comes in varying thicknesses. I have both styrene and the Kadee shims.
Quote from: Piyer on July 22, 2015, 12:09:48 PM
...information about suggested model weights (among other things) on their website: http://www.nmra.org
Marlec, you'll want to check under "Standards".
JB - I wasn't disparaging the Lionel cars. Like I said I've converted many of them myself, as well as old Tyco and Mantua cars. I was just trying to make the point they aren't worth a whole lot, in spite of what some people think because they're old and say "Lionel" on them.
I also use other brands of trucks, but I can get the Kadees locally at a pretty good discount, so mainly use them.
"...stature..."??? I'm only 5'10" tall.
Len
Quote from: Len on July 22, 2015, 08:08:05 PM
JB - I wasn't disparaging the Lionel cars.
Never said or thought you were my good man :)
Quote from: Len on July 22, 2015, 08:08:05 PM
"...stature..."??? I'm only 5'10" tall.
Len
stat·ure: importance or reputation gained by ability or achievement.
"an architect of international stature"
synonyms: reputation, repute, standing, status, position, prestige, distinction, eminence, preeminence, prominence, importance, influence, note, fame, celebrity, renown, acclaim
"an architect of international stature"
Len;
Taps and holders are best if the holder is NOT permanently affixed to the tap-I believe that is to what you infer here.
My "train taps" consist of 00-80, 00-90, 2-56, 4-40, and 6-32. I have corresponding dies as well.
I keep a cake of bees wax on hand, and if needed, olive oil; cheap, and available upstairs. Also, it won't attack plastics.
ABUNDANZA!!
Rich
Addendum;
THe beeswax started out in life "de-fuzzing" thread for things like water tanks, etc-until I read a short article by the late Lee Van Devis, about using blackened fine phosphor bronze wire as "lines". Now it has some other uses.
Rich C.
I wasn't infering anything about permantley attached tap handles. I said I use a 2-56 tap in a T-handle holder, such as the one pictured just above the tap here: http://www.ksmetals.com/accessories.html (http://www.ksmetals.com/accessories.html)
For some smaller sizes I do have the tap drill and tap semi-permanently set up in double ended pin-vises, with a size label on the them. It saves hunting for and trying to handle almost invisible (to my eyes) drill bits.
I also use bees wax when tapping plastic. For pot metal, brass, etc., I use a drop of light oil. Lighter fluid or kerosene is best for aluminum.
Len
Wow! i really feel like a Newb...
I have to check every thing so to know what you're all saying... ::)
I know this project isn't Worth much in terms of $$...
But I'll try to do this for my boy who wants to add my cars to his...
marlec - the NMRA is the National Model Railroad Association. It was formed ages ago to promote standards in the industry. Before the NMRA you couldn't run trains from one company with another without a lot of fuss. The NMRA has standards for weight - e.g. what should a 40 foot HO boxcar weigh to keep it on the track? They have all kinds of standards. They make a track/wheel gauge that many people find indispensable. Other vendors sell these and serious modelers will have at least one. They publish a magazine and have annual meetings that usually include a train ride and visiting other people's layouts. I've been a member since 1972 and have really come to appreciate what the organization does.
Quote from: Marlec on July 23, 2015, 10:51:57 PM
Wow! i really feel like a Newb...
I have to check every thing so to know what you're all saying... ::)
I know this project isn't Worth much in terms of $$...
But I'll try to do this for my boy who wants to add my cars to his...
Micro Mark has loads of tools for MRR modelling. Tools, MRR parts, hardware, taps, drill bits, etc.
Google Micro Mark.
Rich
I can't tell you how many projects, prototypes, displays, etc., I've built with Micro-Mark tools and supplies. They're my go-to source!
Have fun!
the Bach-man
Quote from: Marlec on July 22, 2015, 12:47:27 AM
Micro Mark has a lot of Tools for the hobby... check that out...
Check the 'ship building' section at Micro-Mark too. Lots of tools and supplies there are also very useful for model railroading.
Len
Yeah, I know Micro-Mark...
Great stuff and Tools.. but no forums, so I thought I would have help here...
@Len
How much did it cost you per cars for the conversion?
Marlec - I buy Kadee and Intermountain coupler, truck, and wheel stuff in bulk when I find a good price. So I can't really give you a dollar amount per car. Probably between $1 and $2.
Even at full list, couplers, trucks, and wheels don't come to a whole lot of $$$ per car. And there are plenty of places to get them at a significant discount.
Len
thanks for the infos !
I have found the Intermountain and Reboxx machined metal wheels roll the best. Better than sintered metal wheels.
Rich
Marlec, ask Len how many items there are in typical "bulk" package that he purchases and the cost of said packages, that allow him to come out with the best cost per unit that he speaks to.
Question for you: how many cars do you have as potential candidates to upgrade?
JB - I just looked, and the current list price for Intermountain bulk wheelsets is $99 for a box of 100. Model Train Stuff has them for $69.99, so call it $0.70 a wheelset or $2.40 a car at current prices. I purchased several boxes back with the price was in the $49 range, and still have several boxes left.
I mentioned I got a bunch of the Kadee trucks I use when my repair shop was still open. I got them marked down from wholesale on a special buy from the distributor I used at the time. If I didn't have them, for upgrading old Lionel cars I'd use Delrin trucks from Tichy, with a current MSRP of $14.50 for 10 pair. Which gives a per car price of $1.45 if you use the wheels they come with. Switching to the IM wheels would bring it up to $3.85 per car.
While I've still got a ton of #5 couplers stashed away, for the most part I've switched to the #148 'whisker' couplers for general use. MSRP is $85.85 for the #140 pack of 50 pairs of #148's. MTS has them at $64.99 for 50 pair, or $1.29/pair. Throw in the #262 Draft Gear Boxes at $0.26/pr and couplers come out $1.55 a car.
So using Tichy trucks, IM wheels, #148 couplers, and #262 pockets, at current prices, brings it to $5.40 per car to upgrade. Not counting the JB Weld epoxy to fill the truck holes, or 2-56 screws that are super cheap from Micro-Fasteners. And that's with not hunting around for better pricing than MTS offers.
If you don't buy in bulk, like I do, the cost will be a bit higher. Probably in the $6.00 a car range.
Len
Thank you for helping to illustrate part of my point. Your new numbers are much closer to what I got than $1-2 per car. This is why I posed my two questions. A lot will be determined by how many cars Marlec is looking to do.
I also found the 100 IM wheel-sets at Model Train Stuff for 69.99 + shipping (pick your poison, pay shipping or tax) and in thinking it makes sense to get as many of the needed components from the same place to reduce shipping cost, I added a bulk pack of 40 Kadee #5 couplers for $19.99 and 4 packs of corresponding Kadee coupler boxes (10 x 4) at $9.56 to the equation with $6.35 for shipping. To get a rough idea of cost for each unit, I divided up the shipping cost among those 3 items to be $2, $2.35 and $2 respectively. Leading to
$72.34/100=.72 per wheel set; $21.99 /40=.55 per coupler and $11.56/40=.29 per coupler box. I prefer Accurail trucks over Tichy, so if it was me, I would get those. Bettendorf, assuming, 24 for $14.98+$3.49 in shipping last I got them, so $18.47/24=.77 per truck.
That all comes to about $6.10 per car. I am not even including cost of screws or the tools needed to upgrade. I am not saying the above are all rock bottom prices for each item but this is what I came up with in about 15 mins time. If it was me doing this I would search for prices a little harder, but frankly, I don't realistically expect the costs to be found for much lower. But the point is, much more than $1 or $2 cost per car.
Guess I was thinking about the prices back when I bought my stuff, which was a few years ago. I tended to stock up when I find a good deal. Checking current prices was a bit of an eye opener. Even so, with many new cars in the $30 -$40 range, upgrading old ones can be a budget saver.
Funny thing is, even though I retired, I still get a lot of parents asking me to upgrade Dad's/Grandad's old Tyco/Model Power/Bachmann/Whatever they found in the attic to work with their kids new set. After hitting them with a truck-tuner, I find the Tichy's work fine for that.
I didn't include tools in the pricing, as they are something any model railroader should have. Whether planning to do upgrades or not.
Len
Quote from: Len on July 31, 2015, 07:39:46 AM
I tended to stock up when I find a good deal.
As do I currently :)
Quote from: Len on July 31, 2015, 07:39:46 AM
Even so, with many new cars in the $30 -$40 range, upgrading old ones can be a budget saver.
I agree although I think that price range is on the really high end. I have found current new cars for much less than that. This is when it becomes decision time whether to upgrade.
Quote from: Len on July 31, 2015, 07:39:46 AM
I still get a lot of parents asking me to upgrade Dad's/Grandad's old Tyco/Model Power/Bachmann/Whatever they found in the attic to work with their kids new set.
I know, you have said as much before. I won't comment on my opinion on the decision making of people who are willing to do that irrespective of cost but I'll just say, I'm not the kinda guy who spends 60+ dollars for a loco motor on a loco that is worth less than half that ;)
Quote from: Len on July 31, 2015, 07:39:46 AM
I didn't include tools in the pricing, as they are something any model railroader should have. Whether planning to do upgrades or not.
I agree but would point out, that until a train modeler starts a project like this, they are not likely to have any or much of the tools needed.
I don't like Tichy trucks for having to put them together and they don't look any better to me than the Accurails. Just my personal preference and opinion. :)
I've put so many together over the years, I could probably assemble a Tichy in my sleep. I like the Accurails also, but I like the Tichy price better for doing an upgrade for a kid that may quickly lose interest to their latest smart phone app.
Len
But doesn't it take more interest (and time) to assemble a Tichy, as opposed to a ready to go Accurail? I also don't like or use Tichy wheelsets and never found a Tichy set to not come with wheelsets which in turn, adds to price. If there are just the trucks available, I am interested to find where and for how much.
When my shop was open, I tossed the Tichy wheels in a box with other plastic wheels I'd swapped out with metal wheels for different customers. I'd get people in all the time looking for replacement wheels "Junior" had lost somehow. If they were plastic, I'd grab some out of the box and replace them for no charge.
On my layout, I "rust them up" and use them as scrap loads and scenic bits around the car shops. I give lots of them away to be used the same way.
Len
Right, that's my point. Why would I buy trucks (Tichy) when their packaging includes wheelsets, which then adds to the overall cost of the item, that I am not going to use, when I can buy just the trucks (Accurail for one example) for a lesser cost per truck? I have enough spare junk wheelsets to use for "scenery" that I don't need to include them in a purchase, to only then end up using them for scenery.
I guess I forgot to mention Tichy is in Alamance, NC, which is near Burlington, about 30 minutes from where I live. I drive to Burlington fairly often, so it's not really out of my way to stop by Tichy to grab a few things.
Len
Ahhh, well there we have it then, LOL!
If you want to get started in the right direction, first, familiarize yourself with the NMRA (National Model Railroad Association), and what they are all about. we here could tell you, but best if you read up on it yourself. They are on-line.
Now, get some GOOD tools-and learn how to use them. Get familiar with drill and tapping practices, as well as just acclimating yourself to good shop practices. This hobby is a cumulative endeavour, and you will learn be exposing yourself (to the hobby!) to knowledge herein.
Good tools are a good scale rule-general, Walthers, etc; a good machine dividers, files, tweezers, pliers, and the list goes on. Read the railroad mags and pick up from those publications.
RIch C.