Bachmann Message Board

Discussion Boards => Large => Topic started by: rtraincollector on November 19, 2007, 08:45:50 PM



Title: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: rtraincollector on November 19, 2007, 08:45:50 PM
I've always liked Large scale but always wonder why Bachmnn has never offered any diesels. as There is a lot who prefer diesels.


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: Paul W. on November 19, 2007, 08:51:31 PM
Even though they are not still listed on the Bachmann web site, they did make a large scale diesel, and they are still available at many mail order dealers. A 45 ton 1:20.3 center cab switcher. You have to remember that Bachmann models their large scale trains after narrow guage RR's. The diesel actually represents a standard guage engine, reguaged to run narrow guage. This train is huge! If you want to test your track clearance, run this one around as it will show where the tight corners are.


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: altterrain on November 19, 2007, 09:16:18 PM
As Paul said, there are not many narrow gauge diesel prototypes around. LGB offered a Yukon and White Pass model. Besides that model, there would be only a few D&RGW switchers, the Plymouth switcher, South American exports and Euro prototypes to model.

-Brian


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: Nathan on November 19, 2007, 09:54:57 PM
Just a note, the Bachmann diesel does have some problems.  Our club has had two of them and the seem to have problems with one of the boards in the unit.  We have had to send them both back for repair.  When they do run they run smooth and pull good.


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: rtraincollector on November 19, 2007, 11:09:12 PM
Okay I understand that bachmann basicly deals in narrow gauge trains but if usa and aristo-craft and I think theres others that model full scale on the same size track couldn't they do it. I guess what I'm getting at is that Bachmann has a great reputation and all and I think that they could do great in an full size train in G Gauge as they already have the track and the know how. They already do it ho and n scale why not in G gauge. I just think there more of a reliable company not saying anything wrong with the other but I've delt with Bachmann in ho, n, and large scale as they call it.


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: the Bach-man on November 19, 2007, 11:24:08 PM
Dear RTC,
We could, but we won't. We are committed to narrow gauge equipment. Aristo, LGB, and USA are doing fine jobs with Standard Gauge prototypes.
Have fun!
the Bach-man


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: altterrain on November 19, 2007, 11:28:16 PM
The smaller scales, HO, N and O, are much larger markets than large scale. In smaller scales multiple manufacturers can make the same engine and still make a profit. The expense of making molds for a new engine is huge (over a million bucks) so there has to be enough of a market to justify that expense. Aristo and USA both make a quality product. You often hear whining over on the boards about wanting this or that  loco but without the ability to sell many thousands of the loco the manufacturers can't make money doing it. Hence the demise of LGB, MDC in large scale, Kalamazoo, and Delton.

-Brian


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: Chuck Hanson on November 20, 2007, 01:40:57 AM
The smaller scales, HO, N and O, are much larger markets than large scale. In smaller scales multiple manufacturers can make the same engine and still make a profit. The expense of making molds for a new engine is huge (over a million bucks) so there has to be enough of a market to justify that expense. Aristo and USA both make a quality product. You often hear whining over on the boards about wanting this or that  loco but without the ability to sell many thousands of the loco the manufacturers can't make money doing it. Hence the demise of LGB, MDC in large scale, Kalamazoo, and Delton.

-Brian

A milliom $$$!!
Last I heard Lewis Polk comment about mold & engineering work was $250,000.00 to produce the Dash-9.. :)

Hmmm...manufacturers can't make any $$$ unless they sell thousands of locomotives??

New to large scale MTH has in only a few years made Hudson's, Northerns, Challengers, Big Boys, Dash-8's, F3's and soon to be released F7's, Pa's, Erie Triplex's, GG1's and a VO1000.

Build it and they will buy it!

LGB's conflict was all internal..store shelves in the USA are running out of LGB stock and just check the market to see how LGB collector prices have shot up lately..once Marklin resumes LGB production..well watch out.


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: altterrain on November 20, 2007, 05:17:25 AM
Current value of the dollar, the 3 axle trucks and smoke unit were already designed, and inflation would put that amount over a million for a complete ground up design  these days. I don't know who is buying Mike's large scale locos. Out of the hundreds of locos I have seen in person only one has been MTH outside of a boxed one at a train show and I live 20 mins. from their headquarters. I suspect heavy subsidization from their O scale stuff but that's a discussion for another forum.

-Brian


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: rtraincollector on November 20, 2007, 08:36:42 AM
Thanks all can now see why not. Bachmann has enough going on especally with just aquiring Williams . And agree the large scale isn't big enough seller to do it and make it worth while at this point I understand Bachmann saying  we can but won't and take that to be it unless theres a major move of modelers to large scale big time . I was just think as bachmann is move value for your buck persay thats all once again thanks for all your answers.


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: vic on November 20, 2007, 12:46:01 PM
As Paul said, there are not many narrow gauge diesel prototypes around. LGB offered a Yukon and White Pass model. Besides that model, there would be only a few D&RGW switchers, the Plymouth switcher, South American exports and Euro prototypes to model.

-Brian

Are you 2 serious?

Gents,  there were hundreds, literally, of narrow gauge gasoline and later diesel powered engines built in narrow guage for use on US RRs and Industries. Brookville, Whitcomb, Plymouth, Porter, Davenport, Mack, EMD, to name a few, in sizes ranging from 1-1/2 tons to 44 tons, in narrow gauges from 3'6" to 18". Theres is NO shortage of prototypes

PS the biggest issue with B'manns first large scale Dizzy was that is was literally a standard gauge engine with narrow gauge trucks, which gave it such a large body shell that killed it for us on most layouts that were built to 1/22.5 clearances, some have actually gone on to new lives in F scale by being regauged to scale 4'8-1/2"!

Now if the first Dizzy had instead been something smaller but still unique to the market like this Brookville 13 tonner it might still IMHO be in production
(http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/amax12.jpg)

Heck even if it was something like this using the Indy drivetrain, things might have been different
(http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/ri350.jpg)

Anyway I do thing Bmann should give another Dizzy a spin, but something a little more managable, even a LS version of their Davenport critter from On30 would be nice.  ;D



Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: altterrain on November 20, 2007, 01:50:31 PM
Okay Vic  :P. Lots of critters and switchers to model but narrow gauge road engine prototypes are pretty scarce  :-*.

-Brian


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: scottychaos on November 20, 2007, 03:35:14 PM
Okay Vic  :P. Lots of critters and switchers to model but narrow gauge road engine prototypes are pretty scarce  :-*.

-Brian

When it comes to "road engines" then yes, narrow gauge "road" diesels are unusual..(at least in the USA..in other parts of the world narrow gauge road diesels are all over the place!) the only narrow gauge US railroad I can think of that has used "road diesels" is the White Pass in Alaska..(and a good model of one of those already exists in large scale! the LGB Alco.)

Most people who model narrow gauge in Fn3 scale naturally are interested in steam only..because their prototypes ran steam only..(3-foot Colorado railroads and the EBT mainly) So a narrow gauge "road diesel" isnt of much interest to those guys..(which is why IMO the Bachmann center cab Fn3 diesel was a flop..it didnt "go" with anything people were already modeling.)

There is a whole sub-group in the hobby interested in "critter" modeling..thats where a narrow gauge Fn3 "non-road" diesel would be a hit. (like the little critters shown above) The center-cab doesnt fit that niche well either, because it was just too darn big! So the center-cab ended up being a nice model without a home...it just didnt fit with any of the established Large Scale "niches"..

I think a little critter would be a hit for Bachmann!
but not a "road diesel" in narrow gauge..

Scot


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: Steve Stockham on November 20, 2007, 03:42:23 PM
A diseasal box on wheels is still a box! :P There are only so many $$$ available for narrow gauge steam prototypes. Any diseasals modelled takes away from a deserving steam engine!!! (Yup! I'm prejudiced and proud of it!! I would take the Vulcan in a heartbeat over a diseasal simply because it's a steamer! :D)
  Seriously though, I have no problem with a small switcher but it should be offered like the Porters were; as a secondary offering and not the primary Spectrum offering for the year!


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: vic on November 20, 2007, 07:54:15 PM
White Pass road dismals  ;D
(http://www.whitepassfan.net/whitepass/images/bespr003ge94wt196307xx_510.jpg)
GE class 96

(http://www.whitepassfan.net/whitepass/images/81dedmann19740300_510.jpg)
GE3000

(http://www.whitepassfan.net/whitepass/images/10419690900_510.jpg)
ALCO

(http://www.whitepassfan.net/whitepass/images/p101074920030531.jpg)
Bombardier

(http://www.whitepassfan.net/whitepass/images/11019780528_510.jpg)
MLW
Their out there,  :)

Images from the Whitepassfan.net website ;)


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: Cascade Northern on November 20, 2007, 08:46:03 PM
I wish someone (Bachmann  ;)) would make White Pass #81.  It is Ex-US Army and I love the old US Military locomotives.  But, that's just me ;D


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: jpipkin on November 20, 2007, 10:05:47 PM
I vote for a scaled up version of the On30 Davenport.   


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: Chuck Hanson on November 21, 2007, 03:02:47 AM
Quote
And agree the large scale isn't big enough seller to do it and make it worth while at this point I understand Bachmann saying  we can but won't and take that to be it unless theres a major move of modelers to large scale big time

Where's the numbers to support that line of thinking?? Everything that I read is saying just the opposite..that large scale is growing by leaps & bounds.

Infact one large scale retailer that I know of pulls in over 6 million a year in sales...if just 2 more large retailers are doing that well then sales are at least in the 20 million dollar range...that's a lot of trains.

If sales are so slow to such a small group well then why does one major large scale manufacturer reduce the price on a new model locomotive by 30% in less than 90 days of hitting the market?

Now to me it doesn't make sense to reduce the price of a model by say 100.00 within 90 days esp. if that model cost the million dollars to make like some here think that it does.

Quote
Out of the hundreds of locos I have seen in person only one has been MTH outside of a boxed one at a train show and I live 20 mins. from their headquarters.
You don't see them because the market is huge..heck I live 10 minutes from the Union Pacific transcon line and I don't see all of the U.P.'s 10,000 locomotives!!

 


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: scottychaos on November 21, 2007, 11:13:09 AM
Quote
Out of the hundreds of locos I have seen in person only one has been MTH outside of a boxed one at a train show and I live 20 mins. from their headquarters.
You don't see them because the market is huge..heck I live 10 minutes from the Union Pacific transcon line and I don't see all of the U.P.'s 10,000 locomotives!!

 

I agree with Brian..
the reason we dont see MTH Large scale locos in not because "the market is huge"...I agree that it seems no one is buying them.

I am a member of a large G-scale club..the 50 members in the club combined own many hundreds of locomotives by Bachmann, USA Trains, Aristocraft, LGB and Hartland..and I have been to all kinds of train shows over the last several years..I have NEVER seen one single MTH Large Scale locomotive...I dont know of one single person in my club who owns one single MTH loco..

my theory is that there is a "hidden subgroup" of large scale modelers who model Large Scale in the "O scale" tinplate pattern..with "toy train" style indoor layouts..These must be the guys buying MTH! but these guys appear to be totally hidden and seperate from the rest of the Large Scale "garden railroad" community...I have certaintly never seen them! and no one I know owns a single MTH loco..and I know a ton of Large Scale modelers..

IMO, MTH made a mistake by doing their Large Scale locos in the O-scale "toy train" style..and making them 1/32 instead of 1/29.


Scot


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: Matthew (OV) on November 21, 2007, 02:01:20 PM
This scene on my railroad:

(http://www.lscdata.com/users/slatecreek/45line.jpg)

is only really possible because Bachmann's one diesel in 1:20.3 was not especially popular.  (and there's one on the railroad that didn't make the picture!)  That means they can often be had at "fire sale" prices.  This particular style 45 Tonner wasn't built by GE until the 1960's, and while it follows their then as now policy of one size carbody and different sized trucks, the model doesn't fit in with the timeframe on a lot of 1:20.3 folks model railroads.  Mine happens to include more modern things, so for me they're great.  I plan to combine a couple of them to produce something like the US Gypsum 1303 and 1403 (later GLW 130 and 140, now at CRM) or maybe something like the SP Narrow Gauge #1. 

I personally would love to see a White Pass and Yukon ALCO ... particularly the wide cab version ... but I'd probably be one of about twelve people who'd be excited about it, as opposed to the throngs of folks who like Alamosa or Orbisonia flavored steam locomotives .... and as such you're unlikely to see it.

Bachmann has focused on narrow gauge equipment, while USA and Aristo have focused more on standard gauge.... asking one for the other is quite a bit like walking into a Jaguar dealer and demanding they explain why they don't build 4x4 pickup trucks, because if they did "Everyone" would buy one.  In the case of the models, it becomes even further entrenched, because even if there was a crossover model released (say, for example, Bachmann decided to build a 1:29 F40PH ... it wouldn't run with anything else the company made and look right to anyone who knew anything about the equipment the models represent.

Matthew (OV)


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: Tony Walsham on November 21, 2007, 05:07:10 PM
BIG SNIP
IMO, MTH made a mistake by doing their Large Scale locos in the O-scale "toy train" style..and making them 1/32 instead of 1/29.


Scot

My opinion is different.

I think making them to 1:32nd scale was the corect thing to do.
Where MTH erred is in making the use of the their proprietary DCS control system mandatory.
I know of many regular LS'ers who would invest in most of the MTH LS offerings if they could choose the sound and control system of their choice.


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: norman on November 25, 2007, 10:47:29 PM
Hi there:

I saw a MTH 1:32 scale Hudson demonstrated at a local Hobby shop a few years back. The Hudson is beautifully detailed and the hidden secret is the sound and smoke system. The dealer ran the Hudson under the laboured chuff setting with heavy synchronised smoke blasting out of the stack. Staring at the engine head on at track level looked realistic enough to stand in for a movie scene.

I would like to convert my Bachmann engines to 2 rail AC operation to use the MTH sound/smoke system but a flywheel is required to be installed on the motor shaft. Difficult.

Hopefully, Bachmann will eventually upgrade to synchronised puffing smoke to match the new sound systems.

MTH made a huge error in selecting the correct 1:32 scale. The incorrect 1:29 scale produces a larger model and people like it. 1:29 is the scale for standard gauge models.

Mr. Bachmann, with your Williams acquisition, maybe the O Scale puffing synchronised puffing smoke technology can be applied to future 1:20.3 steam models? If this happens, please provide kits for retrofitting our existing locomotive purchases.

Norman


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: Curmudgeon on November 25, 2007, 11:00:37 PM
Actually, the TAS smoke units can be "pulsed" off a chuff trigger.
That's how USA Hudsons do it.
No need to go "AC" on the rails.
No need for a flywheel.
The flywheel is actually a code wheel to control the unit with their control system.
Whan we rip out Mikey's Mandatory on-board equipment (in 3-rail "0" and in 2-rail LS), we leave the flywheel, and cut out the sensor and everything else.


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: Chuck Hanson on November 28, 2007, 09:56:45 AM
Norman,
http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/DCS_Install_Services.htm (http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/DCS_Install_Services.htm)


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: YellowHillsCentral on December 15, 2007, 10:59:21 AM
I was really hoping that someone would make whitepass diesel. I'd really need a diesel on my route for a road engine. The only problem with a GE96 is that there is only really one way it can look (like the F7s) so you would need two of them. Now, the Bombardier and the ALCo would be great. Another problem is that LGB's ALCo White PAss diesel is in 1:22 scale right? I'm just afraid it would look like a shrimp on my layout next to my shay which I just got two days ago. That thing is huge!

Shay Ludlow


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: Kevin Strong on December 15, 2007, 01:54:44 PM
LGB's version of the White Pass diesel can hardly even be described as "1:22." It's done to LGB's typical "selective compression" scale. The prototype White Pass diesels are HUGE! Plans I have measure to 50' long by 9.5' wide. That's 30" x 5.5" in 1:20.3. Just as the B'mann Shay would make LGB's version look like a shrimp, a true 1:20.3 version would make the Shay look like a shrimp. I agree, it would be an awesome sight, but would most likely prove to be too large to fit on most peoples' railroads.

The good news is that diesels are "easy" to scratchbuild, at least when compared to steamers. LGB, USA, and Aristo-Craft (and Bachmann) provide ample varieties of motor blocks and truck sideframes to serve as a platform, and the rest can be built from styrene. While I'm loathe to admit to it, I did "experiment" in my formative years...

(http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/eastbroadtop/WoodlandRY/WRY40.1.jpg)

(http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/eastbroadtop/WoodlandRY/WRY40.2.jpg)

(At least it had siderods! ;D )

Really, it's a matter of how you want to spend your time. You can either sit and wait patiently for someone to maybe produce the prototype you like, or you can use that time to slowly chip away at building a model of it. Perhaps something like the White Pass diesel would be a daunting first project, but something simpler like the D&RGW's #50 or the Whitcomb 40-tonner I did would be much simpler to start. With the internet, there are plenty of experienced modelers who will readily help you along with advice and techniques.

I do have to agree with the majority opinion here that the vast majority of people in 1:20.3 want steam locos, and there are still numerous ubiquitous or popular prototypes that really should be addressed first. (Hello!!! C-19?) I do think something like the SP's "Little Giant" would have a fair level of appeal. It'd still be fairly large--18" x 5.5", but shorter than the 30" of the White Pass loco, and a bit narrower than the 45-tonner.

Later,

K


Title: Re: Any Thought on Bachmann Manurfacturing Diesels in large Scale
Post by: vic on December 17, 2007, 02:56:06 PM
I vote for a scaled up version of the On30 Davenport.   

I agree, do it in 1/20...what the heck! They already HAVE the siderod drive brick, from the 45tonner, and the master mold from the On30 model. It would nicely complement the lower priced Porters...