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Discussion Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cheeky_ULP on November 19, 2007, 09:50:56 PM

Title: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: Cheeky_ULP on November 19, 2007, 09:50:56 PM
Has anyone ever been to an engine scrap yard, and what is it like? I've always been curious. Especially about finding an old steamer, and managing to bring it back to life. Is there some sort of procedure into getting the locomotive? I know that it could take alot of work to fix an old steamer. ;)
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: Conrail Quality on November 19, 2007, 10:39:09 PM
Well, first you would have to buy the loco from the scrap yard-easily in the tens of thousands of dollars, more its particularly large. Then you would have to find a way to get it out...big bucks.
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: taz-of-boyds on November 19, 2007, 10:47:56 PM
Not that I have any personal experience, but I do pay attention to what others have said.  Once you have the locomotive it sounds like the work has only just begun.  Especially if you want to be safe, or run it out on the regular railroads.  All kinds of government regulations you have to demonstrate you meet.  You may find some good stuff with a Google search for something like:

steam loco* restore

Every once in a while I come across the web site for a museum where they discuss some of the costs and time involved, especially if you don't happen to have the money just laying around waiting to be spent.

Have fun,
Charles
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: SteamGene on November 20, 2007, 08:53:43 AM
A scrap yard in Roanoke, Virginia has at least two N&W M1's.  Try contacting them.
Gene
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: ebtnut on November 20, 2007, 01:58:53 PM
Restoring and old steamer, even if you locate one, is a huge daunting task.  FWIW, the East Broad Top recently had to repair one of its engines that was in running condition.  Most of the firebox and the rear end of the boiler had to be replaced, which cost somewhere north of $500K.  The biggest hurdle is boiler and firebox work.  You must do a complete ultrasound analysis of the boiler shell to determine if it is thick enough to hold steam pressure safely.  Fireboxes are even more important because they have to withstand the pressure on one side and 2600 degrees or so of heat on the inside.  This is the reason for the hundreds of staybolts that hold the firebox inside the boiler.  You also have to check for any cracks in the main frame and in the driver centers.  I could go on, but you kind of get the picture.  It might actually be more cost-effective to get a brand new loco built, or see if there are any left for sale in China that could be made compliant with US design standards. 
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: Dr EMD on November 20, 2007, 07:35:29 PM
You should also check with the EPA about the asbestos.
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: GN.2-6-8-0 on November 20, 2007, 08:36:29 PM
On the other hand I know of one sucess story......pick up a copy of the VHS Eureka & Palisades....The' most beautiful little narrow gauge 4-4-0 American
you ever saw.............and the only one left in the world today.  :-*
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: PhilipCal on November 21, 2007, 01:37:56 AM
My suggestion would be for you to consider joining a railroad museum. I don't wish to sound  like I'm recruiting, but I'm a member of a museum that has two operating steam locomotives, and one awaiting restoration. As noted, the costs/problems involved in obtaining a steamer, then restoring it, and returning it to operating condition can be considerable. There are numerous Federal regulations and standards that must be adhered to, and inspections and recertifications are constant. Membership in an operating museum can possibly involve you in a project with a steam locomotive. That would include all the frustrations and rewards associated with obtaining, restoring and operating it.
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: SteamGene on November 21, 2007, 08:10:28 AM
It would seem to me that with today's modern computers and sensors, some of the rules for the inspection of steam locomotives need to be evaluated and perhaps changed.  Lots of ships still operate off a boiler and nobody tears them apart once a year. 
Gene
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: Tom Lapointe on November 22, 2007, 04:35:43 AM
QuoteLots of ships still operate off a boiler and nobody tears them apart once a year. 

Most ship boilers are water-tube, vs. the fire tube boilers used in locomotives, stresses are somewhat different.  You're also talking boilers which may be a century (or more!) old in a lot of cases, & probably not maintained too well in their final years. 

Pick up a copy of the book "Train Wrecks" & check out the chapter on "Boiler Explosions" - what happens when a crown sheet lets go was NOT pretty! :o

Modern electronics can certainly help monitor a boiler's safe operation (there's a system available for G-gauge live-steamers, for example, which shows a green LED when the water level is safe, a red one for low water; it can also be used to start an electric boiler feed pump when low water is detected).  The Federal boiler rules were tightened substancially a few years back after the explosion of not a locomotive, but a vintage steam "traction" engine (farm tractor) which used a (poorly maintained!) locomotive-style boiler.  The owner was killed & the tractor (which weighed several TONS!) was flung several hundred feet from the point of explosion.  Remember that a boiler is primarily a pressure vessel, and if a sudden break in it occurs, all the water in it flashes to steam instantly, expanding 1600 TIMES it's original volume! :o  Many crown sheet failures would rocket the boiler right off the loco frame!             Tom
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: SteamGene on November 22, 2007, 08:53:01 AM
Tom,
I know about boiler explosions and just how powerful they can be.  I also realize the danger of using a boiler that is not safe, or doing something stupid around it.  I know of a C&O H-8 that exploded in the last days of steam on the C&O because the fireman thought he could kick the injector into working again and get water over the crownshield. Didn't happen. Flung loaded hoppers all over the place.  I believe there is still a boiler tube driven through a telephone pole along US 460 caused by an exploding Y6B or A, also towards the end of steam. 
What I'm saying is that modern technology should be able to, as you point out, relieve the railroad of some of the hands on inspections which are now required.  Remember, it was human cost that gave victory to the d..
Gene
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: Beatle (TrainBrain) on November 25, 2007, 09:20:05 AM
Well, I've been to a barely-active junction many times, once I saw 3 CN units pull a short train out (I'll have to upload the video). But it came out on one of (I believe) 2 passing tracks, the other 3 (or 4) are occupied by retired locos and rolling stock.

There are passenger cars that have been reworked and refurbished, ready to roll again. Other, litterally, look like hell. Widows busted, graffitti, no doors, NO FLOOR (:o). There are some locos in the mix. There's actually a NYC F-unit in there, along with, I think, one more loco. There's a bridge above the "yard", owned by Conrail (I believe), used by New Jersey Transit.

I'm talking about Winslow Juction in New Jersey, anyone seen or heard of it?
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: CubanRailways on November 25, 2007, 02:29:02 PM

[/quote]Very nice idea. I've had thoughts of doing that. I've always wondered what it'd also be like to be part of a heritige railway. I have relatives in the UK, and I could look into working or volunteering on the Bluebell Railway.  ;)
[/quote]

I would recommend the Bluebell Railway - infact I have just spent the last 12 hours down there, with a large majority of that time firing a London Brighton and South Coast Railway 0-6-2T Called "Birch Grove".

We have one chap who comes over from Canada for two weeks a year, so having oversea's volunteers is not a rare occurance!

New blood is always welcome as long as you don't mind getting your hands dirty, well infact nothing short of filthy!

Cheers,

Stephen.
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: thirdrail on November 25, 2007, 09:15:41 PM
Other than the three steam locomotives sitting in the Roanoke scrap yard, there hasn't been a steam locomotive in a scrap yard in many years. Remember, it was over 50 years ago that the railroads converted to Diesel power. Yes, there are numerous unrestored steam locomotives about, but in private collections, in city parks, and at museums and tourist railroads.

After a near fatal mishap on the Gettysburg Railroad a few years ago, the FRA adopted much more stringent regulations regarding boilers, although tourist engines may now operate 1432 days between class repairs. The bad news, those class repairs now approach $1 million per locomotive.

There was an unrestored but supposedly operable Alaska RR US Army type 2-8-0 for sale on eBay last week with an opening minimum bid of $415,000. Got that kind of money?? This is one of those "private collection" engines.
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: Guilford Guy on November 25, 2007, 09:41:11 PM
http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/steamloco557.htm
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: CubanRailways on November 28, 2007, 06:08:22 PM
You could get an S160 in the UK for £15,000. Okay its from Poland, but would require about £140,000 to get it running.

If anyone is thinking about purchasing the Alaska Railroad one - think again, and look into transatlantic shipping costs!

Would be interesting to know whether a locomotive restored to working condition in the UK would be allowed to work in the US? Our boiler inspectors are no pushover. 

We have about ten working steam locomotives at the Bluebell, out of a collection of about 30! I think the UK must have the largest number of working preserved steam locomotives in the World - that is not an exageration! A few years ago, China was obviously the last place in the world with a mass of 'revenue' earning locomotives, but the UK is the place to see preserved steam. I think we have on average two trains a week leave London mainline stations on mainline steam charters.

Its such a shame seeing as there are so many stunning US locomotives that would be one hell of a sight working, being thrashed in second valve on the main line.........all boils down to bloody insurance these days......was good to see the two QJ's being imported into the US, but would rather see something homegrown.

Does anyone have a rough idea of how many steam locomotives are in operating condition in the US?

Cheers,

Stephen.
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: taz-of-boyds on November 29, 2007, 07:40:53 PM
Stephen,

I have on occasion visited this site:

- http://www.steamlocomotive.com/lists/

It seems to be comprehensive; it is an amazing and well done site that I have gotten good information from, (though I personally cannot attest to the accuracy).

While I was searching through Google I found this:

- http://nevadanorthernrailway.net/throttle/throttle042806.htm

I hope everyone finds it distressing.  I do!  The rabid anti-pollution crowd has tried to shut down the Western Maryland Scenic Railway, at least the 2-8-0 they operate.  (In theory Bachmann could number one of their locomotives WM 734 to match, though the locomotive is not a match in details.)  It is the only steam trip in Maryland that goes through the natural scenery of the original railroad (a nice 16 mile trip from Cumberland to Frostburg and 16 miles back).

Hope this helps,
Charles
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: Beatle (TrainBrain) on November 29, 2007, 07:57:31 PM
Quote from: Guilford Guy on November 25, 2007, 09:41:11 PM
http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/steamloco557.htm

$415,000...hmmmmm, if Bill Gates liked trains... :D
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: SteamGene on November 30, 2007, 02:44:53 PM
I think the movement to shut down the Scenic Western Maryland came from some rabid hikers and bikers, not polluters.  The state of Maryland is building a rails to trails route that goes through Cumberland and along the SWM right of way and they were afraild of mixing train and trail.  Apparently that problem was solved.  I know I rode last year and the engineer whistled for every trail crossing, even though it was still under construction and the crossings are so well marked you'd think the interstate was crossing, not a path! 
OTOH, apparently because of complaints, the steamer arrives at the Cumberland station towed by a GP? (probably 9) because of ordinances about smoke between the roundhouse (?) and the station.  But as it passes into the station area and the d----- cuts loose, there is an enormous puff of smoke, very black, very thick!
BTW, steam locomotive pollution is actually a help.  The cinders are carbon and act as a fertilizer - check plant growth along right of ways.  They are heavy enough to settle locally and fast, great for plants, but bad for the Monday morning wash.  I'm told that housewife's used to time their laundry by the train schedule if they lived close to the tracks.
Gene
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: ebtnut on December 01, 2007, 09:08:37 PM
Working steam in the U.S.?  In any given year, the number seems to be about 150.  I think the U.K. has us beat these days.  Hell, they're even building a new one over there!  I was fortunate to see some big steam in tourist service around here--N&W 611, C&O 614, N&W1218, SR(C&O) 2716, several Reading T-1's, the 4449 in Freedom Train colors.  It was a big blow when NS got out of the steam program!
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: taz-of-boyds on December 04, 2007, 01:05:56 AM
Gene,

That is a different WMSR topic.  The trail is complete now, and amazingly enough when we rode it this year the real bikers that were on the trail seemed smart enough to avoid and enjoy the train.  We even got through Brush tunnel without stopping.  The MD bureaucrat tourism guy and rabid bikers wanted to stop the train from going through the tunnel.  They seemed to believe the bikers would be in there and suffocate, and maybe they will some day.  The MD bureaucrat tourism guy had the story that the tourists should be just as happy to ride the train a couple miles out then back again, yea right!  But the procedure out of Ridgly seems to be the final fallout of the rabid anti-polluters (as opposed to a reasonable anti-polluter).  I have not heard but I hope things are at peace now.

Thanks,
Charles
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: SteamGene on December 04, 2007, 07:11:18 AM
There are no laws against stupidity. 
Gene
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: Stephen D. Richards on December 04, 2007, 07:58:56 AM
Darn it!
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: RAM on December 04, 2007, 02:50:39 PM
At one time there was a steam train from Chester NJ to Long Valley NJ.  The  anti-polluters stopped it.  There may have been other things that entered in but the  anti-polluters was number one.
Title: Re: Engines in Scrap Yards
Post by: SteamGene on December 04, 2007, 05:13:36 PM
As a general rule the train goes through the tunnel twice a day.  It's real easy to put a sign on both sides:
BIKERS AND HIKERS!!
ON FRIDAY, SATURDAY, AND SUNDAY
A STEAM LOCOMOTIVE COMES
THROUGH THIS TUNNEL AT
APPROXIMATELY XX:XX AND YY:YY.
IT TAKES Y MINUTES TO PASS
THROUGH. 
LISTEN FOR THE WHISTLE.
DON'T BE IN THE TUNNEL
WITH THE TRAIN.  WAIT HERE
UNTIL IT PASSES. 
DON'T FORGET TO WAVE AT
THE ENGINEER.
Remember, steam locomotives give off big pieces of cinder - mostly carbon, which quickly falls to earth and fertilizes the surronding land with a natural fertilizer.  It does not really pollute in the accepted sense of the word, though it does mess up laundry hung on the line.