I have 2 DCC GP7 HO locos, one with sound and one without. The one without sound has the "transformer hum" and does not have very good low speed operation,to which I have found out is normal. When I have them both connected together the one with sound,at low speed where I run them,just drags the other with it,I can hear the wheels slipping. I had sent the one without sound back to Bachmann to have repaired and was told there is nothing wrong with it. Through some research I have found PC boards that are replacement for the ones in them that are "quiet running and have better low speed operation" Now my question,if I change the board in the one without sound will it fix my problem and will they run a little more equally?
Your locomotive without sound has the symptoms of a standard Bachmann DCC decoder installed. The Bachmann standard decoder does not support the CVs required to speed match locomotives. A decoder that is a "quiet running" type should support CVs 2, 5 and 6, which are the CVs required to do basic locomotive speed matching.
Research DCC speed matching as there are several methods that can be used.
have you tried adjusting the speed settings in the decoders so they match one another?
cv2 controls start voltage, and is supported in all Bachmann decoders.
cv5 contros max voltage, this one should be in the sound unit but may not be supported in the non sound one. an aftermarket decoder will most likely support cv5.
cv6 controls mid range voltage. it should be supported similar to cv5.
by using your command station to adjust these values you should be able to speed match these locomotives. what dcc system are you using? can it program decoders?
I am new to DCC so most of the terminology I don't understand. I am using a Bachmann E-Z Command and correct me if I am wrong but I don't think I am able to adjust any "cv" settings. I just wanted to find out if changing the pc board would fix my problem. If I keep running them they way it is now,eventually the one with sound will wipe out the gearing in itself trying to pull the other engine and the 16 cars I have them pulling. Or would I need to change both boards to somewhat match them up. I have another pair of engines that both have sound and run equally with no problems. I do have another engine without sound so maybe switching the boards will be an easy way to fix my problem. jward, where in Pittsburgh are you, I'm in monroeville. After I retired I decided to set up my 40 year old trains for something to do. I have a small platform, 2-4ft X 6ft boards together one length wise and the other sideways,10ft long in the back, just something to play with in the cold weather,it's taken me 2 years to get the track finished.
The E-Z Command Control Center cannot program any decoder by user supplied CV number.
Replacing the decoder may improve the situation but to significantly improve your situation – consist your sound equipped GP7 with another one just like it.
you are finding the fatal flaw of the ez command. try to find somebody nearby who can program these for you. decoders are fully adjustable and this customization is one of the main advantages of dcc over dc. when I first got into dcc I successfully speed matched two locomotives with wildly different gear ratios (12:1 and 32:1) that under dcc would never be able to run together. by adjusting the cvs, I was able to get them to run at the same speed.
cv is configuration variable, and by changing the numbers programmed in them you can change many things such as speed curves, setting up the locomotive to run long hood first (as many gp7s ran in real life) and many other things.
it is my opinion that changing the decoder without having a way to adjust these cvs will not help you get the result you desire. your locomotive will still run at whatever speed is the default for the decoder unless you change them.
I think what I am going to end up doing is buying 2 pc boards -Walthers #524-139 and installing them in both so then they should run close enough to run them together. For me, that should be the easiest to do. I'm not really worried about having sound,most of the time I turn off the sound, the metal wheels I used to replaced the original Tyco plastic ones make enough noise for me.
look at a Digitrax PR3xtra. It's a computer interface. You hook it up to a PC through a USB port. It comes with the install cd and power supply. You then download JMRI which is free. The PR3 hooks up to a programming track, JMRI reads and writes CV values to the decoder. You keep a file so if the decoder gets re-set, just reload the values using decoder pro. Joe
Quote from: Mr Mechanic on February 18, 2016, 04:24:03 PM
I think what I am going to end up doing is buying 2 pc boards -Walthers #524-139 and installing them in both so then they should run close enough to run them together. For me, that should be the easiest to do. I'm not really worried about having sound,most of the time I turn off the sound, the metal wheels I used to replaced the original Tyco plastic ones make enough noise for me.
If you have not already done so, go to the NCE website and read the instructions for their
BACH-DSL decoder so you know what you are getting, what is required to install and set up the decoder.
Should the locomotives not run well in consist you will be able to have someone speed match them for you.
I went to the NCE website and read the instructions for installation and will have no problems installing them and it looks like they work without tinkering,adjusting. Just as long as I install one in each engine, there shouldn't be a problem with them working together. I have been a mechanic all my life and have repaired everything from weed wackers to tractor trailers, about the only thing mechanical I haven't worked on are real trains. Spent 28 years working on the trucks that deliver your mail. I THANK all that have replied and the help will always be appreciated, always ready to learn new things.
Thanks again to all
Stanley Klepacz
Monroeville PA
so you're going to sacrifice the sound in the one unit?
Yes it will remove the sound board out of it. I will install the new board in the non sound unit first and see if it runs any closer to the speed of the sound unit,if it does then the sound will stay,if its too far away on the speed,out it will come. What I have done in the mean time is run the GP7 non sound and consist it with a GP38-2 non sound, that was my last purchase, and they are running fine together, it's just that"transformer hum" that gets to me. Being retired and raising 2 of my grand daughters-13 and 14 and violin lessons and band and jazz, I need to wait a while for the green stuff to "waste" on my hobby. Most of the time I run them with no sound and no light because of the E-Z command unit I have for power. Running 5 engines and no problems so far. Why do you ask? Want it if I remove it?
no, it just seems a waste of money to buy a sound unit then take the sound out over what is essentially a programming issue. I would imagine somebody at the local model railroad club would be willing to adjust the cvs for you if you asked. I can understand the frustration with the motor noise in the non sound unit so a replacement of that decoder should solve that issue. the nce bach-dsl decoder was mentioned. are you aware that this decoder is meant to be hardwired into the locomotive, not plugged into an 8 pin receptacle? a decoder with an 8 pin plug would work better for you.
Quote from: jward on February 20, 2016, 12:31:34 AM
no, it just seems a waste of money to buy a sound unit then take the sound out over what is essentially a programming issue. I would imagine somebody at the local model railroad club would be willing to adjust the cvs for you if you asked. I can understand the frustration with the motor noise in the non sound unit so a replacement of that decoder should solve that issue. the nce bach-dsl decoder was mentioned. are you aware that this decoder is meant to be hardwired into the locomotive, not plugged into an 8 pin receptacle? a decoder with an 8 pin plug would work better for you.
Here we go again.
JMRI DecoderPro. It will program any decoder and you do not need to know what the CVs are, you just tell JMRI DecoderPro what to do and it already knows the CVs.
Cheers
Roger T.
Like I had mentioned before, I am new to DCC. I purchased the GP7s because they were both Pennsylvania RR, had different numbers and were on sale. I purchased most of the items before the track was ready to use. I bought the E-Z Command because of the price and it would run the DCC. The cost of other DCC controllers is out of my price range. I had no idea of the differences between the sound and non sound units. I am finding out all of this as I go along. There were no foot notes that stated " Our sound and non sound units run differently and the non sound units hum,this is normal" I didn't find this out until I had sent the the non sound unit, that I thought was defective,back to Bachmann and was told there is nothing wrong with it. Installing a hard wired board is no problem at all, disassembly and soldering in the new board is something I have no problem doing. I have taken a few units apart and cleaned out the excess globs of grease that are shipped with. Just got my Labelle lubrication kit and will be cleaning and re lubing all of my units. Thank you for the JMRI DecoderPro web site. I had taken a quick look and just might be something that would be helpful. I don't know of any local Model RR clubs to help re program my units to run together and would I still be stuck with the hum in the non sound unit?
Just making a point here; this is why doing research thru literature, on the net, is important and invaluable and should be done before purchasing.
Stanley,
As you get into the details of JMRI Decoder Pro, you will note it cannot be used with the Bachmann E-Z Command Control Center.
I had done some research on the engines before I bought them, BUT, my research consisted of reading the comments of people that bought them and ALL that I read, people were happy with them, the only negative comment was from one person that said "it is a little noisy". I probably would have never found out that sound and non sound don't play well together. I joined this forum and started reading if I could find why I am having problems after I was told by Bachmann that there was nothing wrong with the unit that I thought was defective. Only then, from the comments from all the wonderful people here, I found out what was happening with my trains. Do other manufacturers of trains have sound and non sound units that work well together? Do they have non sound DCC that don't hum. I guess it comes down to......you get what you pay for. I am very happy with Bachmann trains and the price I pay for them. They seem to be engineered very good, as good as the 35 or so year old Athearn engines that I have. The price to pay for another controller, just to equalize the engines and never be touched again, will be a lot more than spending the money to buy boards to put in them. I turn my trains on and let them run.
Quote from: rogertra on February 20, 2016, 03:03:10 AM
Quote from: jward on February 20, 2016, 12:31:34 AM
no, it just seems a waste of money to buy a sound unit then take the sound out over what is essentially a programming issue. I would imagine somebody at the local model railroad club would be willing to adjust the cvs for you if you asked. I can understand the frustration with the motor noise in the non sound unit so a replacement of that decoder should solve that issue. the nce bach-dsl decoder was mentioned. are you aware that this decoder is meant to be hardwired into the locomotive, not plugged into an 8 pin receptacle? a decoder with an 8 pin plug would work better for you.
Here we go again.
JMRI DecoderPro. It will program any decoder and you do not need to know what the CVs are, you just tell JMRI DecoderPro what to do and it already knows the CVs.
Cheers
Roger T.
Ok brokenrail and rogetra, you say to use JMRI DecoderPro to reprogram the decoder, but Hunt says that it will not work with the E-Z Command that I have, I'm back to just replacing the boards. I went on the JMRI web site and it does not list the E-Z Command as a controller that it will work with.
Even if you replace both boards, that is no guarantee that the two engines will work together as one unit without the need to tweak some CVs controlling the speed curves.
Also have you considered that you should make a "consist" so that when the controller sends a command both engines respond to the command at the same time without having to send a command to one and then the same command to the other.
Also, one engine is going to have to operate in reverse compared to the other engine. This is going to require a change in a CV value.
If JMRI won't work with the EZ Command, then get yourself a Sprog II, that would be way cheaper than 2 new decoders.
Quote from: Mr Mechanic on February 20, 2016, 01:53:25 PM
I had done some research on the engines before I bought them.
I don't question you had done some research, just how thorough and complete it was. And for DCC it is not just about research on the locos. And there are more sources of info than this forum. I happen to like Athearn locos myself. ;)
Best of luck.
honestly, I don't understand what you think you are going to accomplish by replacing the boards.
everybody here has told you that the cvs need to be adjusted. the problem here isn't that sound and non sound don't play well together. the problem is that you are not listening to what people are telling you to do. and that you will find that you will have spent a small fortune on replacement decoders and still not solve the problem. the McKeesport model railroad club is right down the road on walnut street (rt 148) in McKeesport. they meet Tuesday and thursday evenings. for petes sake, take your two locomotives down there and see if somebody will adjust the cvs for you. problem solved, lesson learned.
I have been listening to everyone...buy another controlled or take them to get adjusted. I have asked "IF" I have them adjusted, will the hum go away in the non sound unit. How close do they need to be to run a consist? I have a F7A and F7B units that I run a consist and have no problems, I can disconnect them,put them about a foot apart and they will stay that way. I want to change the boards to get rid of the hum, buzz, or what ever you call it. It has been said here that "they are cheap Bachmann boards that causes the noise. I looked into the SPROG units mentioned, I only looked at one retailer for the price and for the SPROG 2 $98.99 which only puts 12volt to the track and the SPROG 3 which puts 18volt to the track, same as the E-Z Command, and it costs $124.99 no shipping cost added. I can get 3 boards delivered to my door for $65.78, a good bit less than buying another controller. I still need the question answered, will the hum go away if the CVs are set? I did extensive research on the DCC Controllers and came to the conclusion that I didn't need to "adjust" anything for the little setup that I have. I trusted the manufacturer to sell me trains that would run and ones that are sold should be compatible with each other. You purchase a F a+b unit, you would expect them to be able to run together. Mr. moderator, does Bachmann tweak, say the F a+b units, to be run together, because someone buying them would no doubt want to run them together? I am listening to everyone here, the main reason for changing the boards is to get rid of that noise and I am going to contact NCE and ask the question, if I change the boards will the trains run together. And the other question I need answered, how close do they need to be to "consist"? I am listening.
Quote from: Mr Mechanic on February 20, 2016, 02:48:45 PM
Ok brokenrail and rogetra, you say to use JMRI DecoderPro to reprogram the decoder, but Hunt says that it will not work with the E-Z Command that I have, I'm back to just replacing the boards. I went on the JMRI web site and it does not list the E-Z Command as a controller that it will work with.
I didn't know JMRI would not work with a low level entry system like E-Z Command. My apologies.
Cheers
Roger T.
Quote from: Mr Mechanic on February 21, 2016, 02:01:06 PM
. . . I still need the question answered, will the hum go away if the CVs are set? . . .
The hum due to motor drive frequency from the non-sound Bachmann decoder cannot be eliminated by CV adjustment.
To eliminate this motor drive noise requires replacing the Bachmann decoder with a decoder using a high frequency pulse width modulation motor drive such as a NCE BACH-DLC decoder or the like. NCE refers to their high frequency pulse width modulation motor drive as Silent Running motor drive. Other decoder manufacturers of this type of decoder use other labels.
Quote from: Mr Mechanic on February 21, 2016, 02:01:06 PM
. . . does Bachmann tweak, say the F a+b units, to be run together . . .
The Bachmann HO Sound Value equipped
F7A and F7B
FA-2 and FB-2
their decoder CVs defaults are set allowing them to run together out of the box baring any locomotive mechanical or other issues. Looking into the decoder details of these F A – B locomotives you will see the better speed curve is the factory default and the speed curve using CV 5 and CV 6 is disabled.
I Thank you for the replies that I needed, Now you understand why I want to change the decoders, get rid of the noise. I have completely disassembled both of my F7 units, cleaned and used the Labelle lubes in them and am really happy how they run and sound. If they are set from the factory to run as a consist, I have something to compare how 2 should run together. I have sent my questions to NCE about if any setting that will be needed to adjust them after installation or if the will work out of the box and if they will be set close enough to run a consist without adjustment.
Quote from: Mr Mechanic on February 21, 2016, 06:17:22 PM
I Thank you for the replies that I needed, Now you understand why I want to change the decoders, get rid of the noise. . . .
You are confusing me with someone else -- I have understood from the start you want to change the Bachmann non- sound decoder to get rid of the noise.
Also, NCE cannot help since you are using the Bachmann E-Z command Control Center. They expect and intent folks to be using a DCC system capable of changing CVs by user supplied CV number with their decoders.
According to the instructions for the NCE decoders, you install them and put it on the track to test run,then,if needed, you can adjust CVs to your liking,needs. If they are quiet and work out of the box,good enough for me. My train platform will never be seen by anyone except for the pictures or videos that I post on Facebook. It is in a room that is 12X24, so it's not very big. If I understood the noise made by the non sound units, I may never have bought them, but I have them now and want to fix them, just to get rid of the noise. There again, the research I did, the only negative comment was "it is a little noisy", thinking gear noise. The right maintenance and lube, I thought, would take care of that. As far as the difference between the non and sound units, I had done some research after I had the problem and still have not found any information that explains why they don't run together. It was then that I joined this forum that I found out what the problem was from those that have been there and done that. I Thank Everyone again for their time and knowledge.