I'm new so be gentle. I'm looking to upgrade some cheap rolling stock. It will never be detailed to Model status but should make some decent runners. I'm looking for wheels and seeing code # on them. I'm assuming they correspond to the track code? From what I can ascertain, most freight cars under 100,000 will use 33 in wheels and passenger cars and larger weight rated frights will use 36 in.
So once I replace the wheels I'll want better couplers and some have horn hooks so I would like to put knuckle style on them. How do I determine which couplers to use. I found the Kadee conversion but know that on these lowend cars there may be differences. also, are coupler boxes required for converting from truck mounted to body mounted couplers?
Quote from: Deland on February 29, 2016, 07:07:17 PM
. . . I'm looking for wheels and seeing code # on them. I'm assuming they correspond to the track code?
Track Code and Wheel Code have no relationship.
Track Code is the height of the rail in one thousands of a inch. Track Code 100 is .100"
Wheel Code is the width of the wheels in one thousands of an inch. The commonly found Code 110 wheels are .110" wide.
Thank you Hunt. That means any wheel will work but some will look more prototypical.
De, you are correct, most freight cars utilize 33" wheels. Newer ones that carry more load, 36". Sometimes it depends on the tonnage of the trucks as well. For simplicity and standards, many people stick with 33" for all, instead of having to purchase 33s and 36s. Some model cars, even cheapies, have info printed on the car that have that kind of info and will point you to wheel size direction. I found a chart, if you would like, let me know and I can forward that info to you. Also you can get into either smooth back or ribbed back, style wheel-sets. We can save that discussion for later but basically old, old ones were ribbed until they were banned from the RR.
Re: wheel sets and trucks: What makers trucks are you using or plan on using? How about wheel-set maker(s)? While some here may not acknowledge this, different makers wheel-sets work better or not, with certain makers trucks. Getting the right match is worth the effort.
Re: couplers and boxes: I prefer to install Kadee coupler boxes and either Kadee or Bachmann EZ Mate Mark II couplers and not put a Kadee coupler on a talgo style truck. To me, if you are going to go through the effort to change the couplers, go the whole 9 yards. You will need some tools to do this and a Kadee Coupler Height Gauge (it works for all couplers btw). I prefer the #206 bc it is plastic and if you have power on the rails when you put it there, nothing will go "poof". The type of Kadee coupler will also determine the Kadee box type. Popular Kadee couplers I use are: #5s and #148s. They each take a different box and have different requirements. The 5s take a #232 draft gear box and the #148s and EZ Mate Mark IIs take a #242. The #5s also need a bronze centering spring to go in the box, which is a little more difficult than using the #148s or EZ Mate Mark IIs that have "whiskers".
I you want the run down on the list of tools which includes a pins vise, screws, 2-56 tap, Truck Tuning Tool and drill bits, to mention a few, just ask :)
doctorwayne, nice work. I'm no where near that advanced but have to start somewhere. I picked up 3-4 $3-4 cars at a local train show a couple of weeks ago just to start building skill on. I also had a couple I had given to me so I have a couple Bachmann, a couple Tyco, and at least one lifelike. It's an hour drive to a train shop so I guess the best idea is to pick up the mentioned coupler boxes and couplers to start and just dig in. I did buy a coupler height guage in plastic. I do need to find a good pin vise and tap. I'm going to guess these weren't your first try.
Are there good or bad brands of pin vise?
I do know metal wheels and axles are the better choice in most cases but don't know much beyond that. If either of you care to make a suggestion? I have a ton (Literally) of tools but because I was an industrial mechanic for 40 years, most are a bit heavy for the HO and a bit light for prototype work. My big issue is going to be to refine my techniques to the size. I appreciate any help/ guidance you give.
Yes, there are good and bad pin vises, lol!. Ask me how I know >:(
Good job on getting the #206.
I would make a suggestion on wheel sets, but see my question first, above, about what trucks you plan to use.
For tap, I bought the 2-56 Kadee one that also comes with 2 bits.
I suggest also getting a foam engine cradle to work on both cars and locos. You can find them for a good price at a place like AMAZON.
Wayne also makes good tool suggestions.
I should have taken Sid's advice and bought the set of 4 pins vises when I was looking, from Micro Mark :-[. Instead, I found a set of 4 black steel ones on AMAZON that had almost 100 Reviews, the large % of which were good, so I bought them and for a few years they worked great. Then, I noticed the one size I used for 1/16" bits and the 2-56 tap would not hold the work straight anymore. Now, to me, that is not so critical for making holes with bits, but when it comes to tapping, it should be straight as possible.
So I searched again for a replacement, again finding 1 on AMAZON that had 4 out of 5 reviewers give it 5 stars. I even asked purchasers if it had held up and all responses were positive, so I bought it and it came last night. Well, it looked great, well made of aluminum, swivel head and 3 jaws just like a drill. But, ever so slightly, it does not hold work perfectly straight, if you look close, you can see the slight "drift". At least it was only $7.35 and came with 10 small drill bits and the seller is offering either a full refund on return (to China, I don't think I will be doing that) or a $2 refund. The first set of 4 was only $7 so altogether, I am not out a King's Ransom, but it is a bit of annoyance to not be able to find one that holds the work straight and I don't consider myself having OCD.
I have heard Starrett pin vises are the best, but am not going to pay that kind of dough. Also heard good things about Kadee pin vises but myself, don't like the idea of having the jaws at either end, can see that digging into my top finger that is holding the vise while using it. And, as noted above, heard good things about Micro Mark's pin vises.
So to summarize, I am still searching myself...
I've used pin vices from several sources, and finally went with the ones made by Zona. You can buy sets of others for the price of one Zona, but they stay straight, hold up well, and come in a variety of types and sizes.
Len
Thanks for the advice guys. I have a coupler height guage, good screwdrivers, several sets of needle nose pliers and mini needle nose, a few pairs of tweezers, a Dremel, a couple of sets of needle files, an Exacto set or two and a mini vise. Some black roadbed track that I plan on mounting to a solid surface to make a purpose built check station for couplers and checking truck movement. I'm thinking drilling a couple of holes in the base and inserting dowels so I can determine if the car rock too much. If the top of the car rocks enough to touch the dowel on either side, the car has too much play in the trucks. I will invest in a scale so I can properly weight cars also. And an engine cradle.
I'm thinking I will use the original trucks on these unless they are damaged but probably will remount with the plugged pin hole and a 2-56 screw, like suggested in a thread I saw last night.. Are there any brands of trucks to suggest or to stay away from? I'm seeing many who claim metal wheelsets are the way to go, but I defer to the people with experience to guide me.
jbrock, I would appreciate the chart.Don't know how best to get it from you though.
Any advice on how to get the couplers centered and how critical is that? I'm assuming that it makes a difference to how the car will work.
Again, thanks to all who respond with help/advice. I'm sure it will save me money and effort.
Quote from: Len on March 01, 2016, 07:56:07 AM
finally went with the ones made by Zona.
Len
Thanks
Len. I am guessing you got them from Walthers? How would you compare them to Micro Mark's? Starrett's? I saw them (the Zonas) listed when I was on there today to try to get info on those wheel sets I had been asking about (the one where the entire Thread got deleted >:() using the number and info you provided. As per usual, Walthers is out of stock and I will have to check back in couple of weeks to get the axle length.
De, I will forward the chart to you through a PM here, later. Good use of the steel track ;) Digital scale can be found at a place like Big Lots or Ocean State Job Lot. Rocking usually comes from where the truck meets the bolster, not being evenly filed. If you hold the car upside down with the trucks on it, you will be able to see if the trucks are on plane or if they are too far forward, too far back, too far left or too far right. Filing the bolster where needed helps cure this.
What is the make of the "original" trucks you intend to use? I asked because (see what I first said about trucks and wheel sets) . I can say this: Accurail trucks work well with Kadee and Intermountain wheel sets; Athearn trucks work well with Intermountain wheel sets, Bachmann (non Talgo) trucks work well with P2K (delrin axle) wheel sets, Walthers trucks work well with P2K (delrin axle) wheel sets, Tichy trucks work well with Intermountain wheel sets.
Yes, you should get the coupler boxes as centered as possible. By eyeing things up, using points on the shell of the car for reference, this should be easy to do.
Glad to help where I can ;)
Well, I did pick up a Zona pin vise, some #5 And #148 couplers and boxes a tap and a spare(lol). I also got an assortment of 2-56 screws and some nuts(just in case). Now I'm ready as soon as I can see a bit better. I had cataract surgery 12 days ago and my sight is better but wont be tops until the 18th when I get my new prescription. That gives me some time to clear a worktable and get some decent lighting ready.
Since I have a HF a few miles away, I'll probably get a scale from them(I usually have a coupon since I buy some consumables thru them). For anyone that does have a Harbor Freight nearby, they usually have a special on multi meters where you get one free with a purchase. You'll need to sign up with their e-mail and print the coupon. It's not a top line meter but would get a guy by to troubleshoot track and check voltages and such until he could step up to a better one. I have a Craftsman (Fluke knock off) from my days as a working stiff.
Deland;
When you get taps, get three-to start. I don't think you will regret it. Brock also suggests three (several?) bits. Also a wise move. A couple of good squares won't hurt. There are several styles of Dremel moto-tools; you might want to check these out as well.
Rich C.
Good suggestions Rich. Way back when, I was smart enough to order some tiny drill bits from Micro Mark to use in the pin vises as well.
I neglected to mention, Kadee Trip Pin Pliers also come in handy from time to time.
De, you'll have to tell me how you like that Zona pin vise. A speedy recovery to you as well :)
OK guys, just updated the first one. It was a Lifelike and actually had casting marks where the new coupler boxes needed to be so they were easy to center. Other than cutting off the Talgo's( truck mounted couplers) It was an easy first go. I do need to get the wheel tuning tool but my local shop didn't have any in stock. I did run into one other minor issue, the 2-56 screws I got, I didn't check and when I went to install one, I found they were hex head rather than phillips. I don't know what size it is but it's small. Anyone know? I'll probably get some phillips and that's what I expected from the ones I got since all the screws I've run into have been.
jbrock, I have to recommend you get a Zona pin vise. I've only used one a few times on other stuff but this has got to be one of the best. The only thing I wish it did have would be a deeper "pocket" for the shank of the bit, but the action and ease was enough to offset that. I think I gave about $8-9 at my shop. In fact on my next trip I think I'll get a second Zona so I don't have to swap from bit to tap and back.
I did learn one thing that wasn't mentioned, maybe because you guys have enough experience to not break an Exacto blade when cutting Talgos off. But the small envelopes the couplers, washers and such come in are just right to use to hold broken blades to keep them from cutting the trash bag.
jbrock - I got almost all of my original Zona tools at the LHS my repair shop was colocated with. Since it closed, I use either Walthers or Amazon for additional, or replacement, Zona tools. I go with whichever one has them on sale.
Deland - I get my 2-56 Phillips head screws in bulk from Micro-Fasteners. I prefer the pan head screws:
http://www.microfasteners.com/search.php?mode=search&page=1 (http://www.microfasteners.com/search.php?mode=search&page=1)
Len
Len, thanks for that link. Since I want to order some phillips head 2-56 that will be a great place to shop. What other sizes will I find useful? I figure I might as well make one order and combine ship[ping.
Any other fasteners any of you would suggest?
Deland - If you're not sure what you may need, they also have an assortment of small screws and nuts:
http://www.microfasteners.com/aststtrn-small-steel-fastener-assortment-for-trains.html (http://www.microfasteners.com/aststtrn-small-steel-fastener-assortment-for-trains.html)
Len
Thank you both De and Len for the info :)
De, what is it you are cutting on the Talgos that you are breaking Xacto blades?
Some time ago, I saved that micro fasterner site from Len, but I buy my 2-56 screws and nuts from Radio Shack. The screws are slotted and come in different lengths. However, what I do is use a cable cutter I bought at True Value Hardware, from a lawn mower job, to cut the long screws to lengths I need. I put a nut on the screw first, cut it and then clean it up using a file or bench grinder. I make sure to run the nut over the threads several times to get it the cut end right. I typlicaly use 2 sizes of hollow styrene tubing in the bolster holes to have a place to mount the trucks. Glue the larger diameter first in the bolster hole, using Testors Tube model glue, then after dry, glue the smaller size into it. Using the tubing with the holes in the middle, gives you an already centered (fairly) hole. Then I tap (when I have a working pin vise, ha ha ha) for the 2-56 screw, just doing a little to get it started and then let the screw self tap the rest of the way.
For coupler boxes, I have a set of small, self tapping Phillips head screws, 3/16 or 1/14" from EBay, lots and dirt cheap. Recently, I have taken to putting a small dab of Testors tube glue on the back end of the coupler box, away from the center hole to help keep it in place. Alleviates the need to potentially tighten the screw down so much to keep the box from moving, that you effect the swing of the coupler in the box.
jbrock, I may be using the wrong term but these were truck mounted couplers which I have seen referred to as "Talgo". I cut the coupler box off of those trucks so it wouldn't interfere with the new couplers or bottom of the car. That's where I broke the blade. I used a bit too much pressure I guess but switched to a brand new blade in a utility knife and it worked easily. I then filed the cut smooth and shaped like the opposite side of the truck. I also had to file just a touch in the body right above the coupler because it interfered with the action of the coupler.
I haven't gone out to my toolbox and checked but I have a pair of stripper/crimper pliers that have threaded holes for screws to go thru. There's an opening in the other half and when you grip them firmly enough they cut the screw and when you back it out of the threaded hole it cleans the threads fairly well. They work well on #6 #8 and #10 Screws but I don't know if they go that small. Shortest length you can cut would be about 3/16 ths. I'll try to check and get number/brand off of them and let you know if they will do that. I think I gave $6-8 for the pair and have used the same ones for 10 years as a mechanic. Just another tool in the arsenal that is easier than cutting and filing such small parts. Ace may carry them and they may come smaller than the 10 in or so ones I have.
I have no way of knowing what tools you have or whether you've ever noticed this feature on strippers before but thought I would throw that out there. I find having the proper tool to do something makes it much more a joy than a chore.
I had found this thread. It goes into some detail about the trucks and that's where I got the Talgo" terminology.
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,18567.0.html
Thanks. You are using the right term and I know what Talgo Trucks are. You'll see that I posted in that particular Thread a time or two that you provided the link to ;)
My question to you was what you were cutting on the Talgo Trucks. Now I understand. You can use End Nippers for the job you are trying to do, better than using an Xacto. I don't often reuse Talgos but when I cut off the same place you are, I use a shortened coping saw blade that I chuck in one of my other, working pin vises and cut it away. Then do the filing sanding you are doing.
I need to ask, are these Talgos you are trying to reuse, have the molded plastic friction pin that holds the truck into the bolster? If so, I would not bother trying to reuse them.
They do have the friction pin and they did work but not to my satisfaction. That pesky budget got in my way at the Train shop and I didn't get but a couple of sets of trucks, some wheels, a Zona, Kadees, screws, and a loco cradle, some lubricant and taps and drills. I had to stop somewhere so the QOV didn't get involved. So more trucks are on the list. And styrene or dowel stock to fill the holes. I'm going to check Radio shack for screws tomorrow though. I may use one of the sets of trucks I got on this car but I think I'll do some of the better ones with Kadees and see what needs them that looks best. I did start with the lowest priced and worst practice car I had. I didn't see any reason to hone my skills on something that might make a "good" car. I need to make a trip out to the toolbox and see if I have a pair of end nippers or put them on my list. IIRC I do have a pair, just need to see if they are in my main toolbox or one of the others.
I noticed in that other thread, the discussion about screws backing out. I've worn glasses all my life and used to have a problem with the screws getting loose in them. Then I learned to put a brushstroke of clear fingernail polish on them. They stick enough to not back out but are easy enough to remove with a screwdriver.
You were smart to start/practice on a low price car. :)
Using the styrene tube method I described, screws will not back out. Did you read that in relation to using screws w/nuts? I used to employ that method, melting a nut in the bolster for the screw to go in but found 2 problems w/that method: 1) harder to get the nut to be level than when using the styrenne and filing when have to, 2) the screw would loosen from the nut (but this can be cured with Blue Thread Lock.)
I like your nail polish trick ;)
Yea, one big reason I don't like to use those trucks I mentioned is it limits your ability to make height adjustments to the car, to get the coupler height correct.
'nother question: Do the cars you are working on, have the molded in roof walk? Do you like their look? I have modified a few, some I had on hand already and a couple a bought, until I decided modifying such cars was not worth the same trouble as modifying a car that had a seperate roof walk, just 'cause those cars look better. Certainly work on the cars you have, but I would suggest in the future, you want to avoid buying ones with the molded in roof walk.
jbrock, the cars I'm working on, I bought because they were cheap enough to learn on without risking any $$$. I figured I would see what I could do with them, then move up to better stuff. There's actually a train show here on the 18th IIRC and I may try to pick up a better car or two. The couplers actually lined up well on this one but it's too junky a car to consider putting any $$ into for trucks and such so if I run across a car with decent trucks at the train show, I may buy one to salvage trucks from. Mostly though, I'll be looking for better cars to build better skills on. I'm hoping with the better weather we're suppose to get this week that I can start some assembly on benchwork I have cut. That's the plan if the QOV doesn't sit on top of me. I have to go to Tx on the 19th to pick up a car my wife bought and will probably be gone for a week or 10 days since I have a couple of sisters and some cousins I need to visit. Sometime in the next two weeks or right after I get back, I need to do some brake work and finish some bodywork on a truck so I have a Cruise In ride this summer. I've got a new speedometer to put in it also. I have no idea how I ever had time for a job.
You're right about the roof walks, they do add a dimension of detail the ones without will never have. I haven't done a search but they make a "Nutcert" (nut insert) that is a self expanding threaded insert that can be used in blind holes when you can't tap to a larger size. I doubt they have any that can be used in plastic but a cut down version of a plastic wall anchor might be an option for the ones that are damaged though a wood screw would probably be the only thing it would hold. In fact I may try that to see if a bolster could be repaired that way if I find a cheap car with a busted bolster, just so I'll know. I'm kind of a "Mad Scientist" that way, I'll experiment.
I'll probably wait until I build a little more skill before tackling ladders and stirrup details and focus for now on the ability to get cars/locos to run smoothly and reliably. And I think I need a small compressor before I try painting, the 30 gal one I have is probably a bit large for the airbrush I have that's 7-8 years old and still in it's package. I do want to get my benchwork built so I can start trying different layouts, testing and programming trains on my oval didn't take as long as I hoped to get boring. I finally have enough track and should be able to get some of the bench done to do practice layouts on. And that reminds me that I need some better lights in the train room, on my workbench and to replace a fixture in the entryway of my house. I don't know if I like this hobby, I seem to be making my own honey-do list as I go.... lol. And I haven't even touched on scenery....
I don't like these myself, but maybe you want to consider these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/280897951122?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Best advice I can give on replacement trucks is if you know you have several cars to do that you want to replace the trucks on, buy the trucks in bulk off the net, that is the best buy, least expensive way, to go about it. Want to know more, PM me ;)
I also would not go on your "Mad Scientist" rampage about the bolster holes. Really, it is piece of cake to use the styrene tubes and it will hold the screws just fine. No need to put yourself through torturous machinations. :)
Quote from: Deland on March 04, 2016, 09:19:54 PM
jbrock, the cars I'm working on, I bought because they were cheap enough to learn on without risking any $$$.
Yep, I get that ;)
Hadn't thought of those. And I got to quit looking at this stuff. Those reminded me that I need to build a mini forge for a friend who is a knifemaker. If I don't remember I don't gotta do it. But he is a great guy and I am just building the forge because he did a solid for the family without any thought of recompense. Probably only a 4 hour project but I could use that time to play electrician or bodyman or trainman or........
Deland;
My two cents worth:
I have long used 'Tichy train Group (tichytraingroup.com) as one of my sources for parts. Take a few minutes and visit (when you have time...). They have parts for rolling stock as well as buildings; their parts are top quality...And the price, nine times out of ten, is right. The instructions are clear, concise, and I think you will be very satisfied.
Tools will make or break you; if you have junk to work with, that is what you will produce.
Grandt line is another good parts company. Cliff Grandt started it many years back, and his kid(s) are now at the helm since his passing. Good quality parts, prices not too bad. A lot of what they catalogue is for narrow gauge, but more are for standard gauge, and diesels.
The web can be your best friend here; there are a lot of companies.
I got started working with plastic with an article in MR some years back, on how to build a diesel out of plastic stock. It was, I believe, an RS-11-and that fired my enthusiasm for plastic. Nowadays, there are a lot of suppliers; Evergreen Plastics among them.
I have skirted brass for a good reason: If you have no metal-working skills, try to avoid it until you have developed a level of comfort with ability.
OK; just some thoughts on this stuff. By the way, what part of Texas do you come from? I got stationed in Amarillo (461st bomb wing) just out of tech school. The people there are the greatest! God bless them.
Rich C.
Quote from: electrical whiz kid on March 05, 2016, 07:34:27 AM
Tichy train Group (tichytraingroup.com). They have parts for rolling stock as well as buildings; their parts are top quality...
Rich C.
Absolutely!
As I had mentioned earlier, their trucks are good. I prefer the single piece ones as opposed to the ones you assemble. They can also be found at places like
MTS for a good price, in bulk and they come with their own plastic wheel sets, which I don't like myself. As I had also mentioned earlier, I found that some metal wheel-sets do not work in them (too tight even using "The Tool") but found Intermountain wheel sets work well in them, at least for the Roller Bearing one piece trucks that Tichy sells.
Best thing about Tichy is they're only about an hours drive from where I live! ;D ;D
Len
Whiz, I was born and mostly raised in Amarillo and some in Waynoka OK. (Santa Fe family) I'll be there in a few weeks to visit a sister who still lives there. My in-laws(I won the lottery on in law) live in McKinney so I fly into Dallas, pick up a car from my in laws and take them to dinner and stay a couple of days, visit some Dallas area train stores, then to Amarillo to see my sis, Waynoka to see an aunt who is 84 and some nieces and great nephews, then to OKC to see another sis and home to NC. I leave the 19th, the day after a local train show.
If anyone has suggestions on train shops in Big "D" please post up. I'll be there a couple of days with in laws then may stay a day to see trains.
I want to thank you all again for sharing your insights and knowledge along with resources for parts and great suggestions on tools. I learned years ago where to spend money on tools, but didn't know what I would need for trains. I always buy quality tools and have a 5'6" tall 42" wide roll away for my basic set of hand tools and other boxes for air, one for electric and one for battery powered tools. I'll buy a cheap tool but only if it will see very limited use, like one time. Someone suggested a Dremel and I have one that is 20 years old and has probably been used about a dozen times. It'll probably get used a lot more now.
I do have some metalworking tools and skills but not yet ready or too interested in brass, unless it's for the reloading bench. I see that it's really nice looking stuff but my pockets are a bit shallow.
OK guys, I'm off to the Radio Shack to get screws and Homies for foam board. Maybe I'll make some progress today on something.
"...Amarillo by mornin', Amarillo, I'll be there..."-George Strait
I remember I saw Palo Duro Canyon for the first time-went horse-backing there. What a beautiful place! At the time, I hadn't been too far from Massachusetts; and for me at eighteen, it was a sight to behold!! It was funny-I had just graduated from school at Chanute AFB, and got to 'Rillo in the middle of March. It was a beautiful day, around 72 when I got to CQ to sign in, and I thought I'd hit the jackpot! The next day (mon) I got outside BAQ in my shirtsleeves, and the icy wind hit me like an express freight! That's "Big A" for you! maybe you remember the "Palo Duro Dons"?
There are a lot of on-line supply sites here, lots of them in monthly pubs like RMC; so the world is pretty much your apple.
RIch C.
I'm a former "Don" Then I became a Waynoka "Railroader". Palo Duro Canyon is a great place. My last job there, was for a man who owned several Pharmacies in Amarillo, Canyon, and the area. He also owned a Ranch near Clarendon which was on one of the private areas of the PD Canyon. I spent a lot of time on that Ranch and it was even better than the Canyon because being private Property, there weren't any people around. There was a private campground right on a creek. There was a spring fed waterfall of about 7-8 ft that flowed 65* water year round. I used to go Skinny dipping/shower under it after a 100* day of work. Then Like you said, it might be a foot of snow the next afternoon. Nothing like wearing a Parka to work and wanting your shorts by quitting time and being able to fly a kite through it all.