I received the new decoder boards yesterday and installed them. Everything is working fine,both of the GP7s run good in a consist and was able to reverse the forward direction in one to run long hood forward. I installed one in the GP 38-2 and had no problems changing the address to 1. Happy with how everything turned out,no more hum while they are running. Now I need to work on the old Atlas turnouts to keep them from shorting out when switching tracks. Was thinking of grinding the track where they short out and use something like JB Weld to make new track where I grind it out.
where are they shorting?
From what I can see, it is across from the point or frog. I thought it was the frog and across from it seemed too far apart to short, but I can see little burnt sports where it is happening. I would only need to do a 1/4 in of track on one side to stop it. I have read of people using clear nail polish to stop it from happening, but I wanted to do something a little more permanent. Just running the trains straight through seems to be okay,it's when I switch the track or back through the turnout it shorts.
are these the type with metal frogs? if so, are the frogs powered? on some atlas switches there was an optional metal bus bar that was used to power the frog. this was intended to be hooked up to a snap relay. if your switches have one of these installed, try removing or disconnecting it.
Tried to post a picture but it says it's too big, The switches are 40 year old Tyco and I think they are powered all the way through. They are glued and ballasted in place and I don't really want to take them up, be easier to grind a little and make the track up with JB Weld or body putty.
I know that I am going to hear about "I should have done more research" but I wouldn't have know what research to do until I have experienced the problems I am running into. So far the problems I am running into have been simple fixes. Other than the switch problem,everything is working good.
you cannot post photos directly to the forum. you have to upload them to photobucket or flikr then post the link here.
try that. and once we know exactly what we are working with we can offer better suggestions on how to resolve the problem.
for what it's worth I don't think you'll have much luck trying to build a frog out of jb weld.
http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/mechanicstan/media/100_3795_zpssuhee6rn.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
Hope this works. The short is where the screwdriver is pointing. I wont be building a frog,just grind and replace the part of track that is shorting,about a 1/4 of an inch worth.
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The short is where the screwdriver is pointing. I won't be building a frog, just grind and replace the part of track that is shorting, about a 1/4 of an inch worth.
Thank you for doing that. First time using Photobucket.
thanks for posting the photo.
it looks to me like the guard rails are spaced too widely. they are supposed to guide the wheels away from touching where they do, by pulling the other side of the wheelset closer to the stock rail.
the obvious solution, to respace the guard rail to nmra specs, would require a lot of work, including removal of the existing guard rail and fabrication of a new one. you'd have to do this for each guard rail.
fortunately, if the widely spaced guard rails are not causing derailment problems there is an elegantly simple solution here. carefully cut gaps in the two rails at about the location of the screwdriver point. this will effectively lengthen the dead area of the frog past where the wheels short out.
my dad did this on the first area of his layout, placed in service in march 1978. he used atlas #6s in this area, and had similar shorting problems. he also for good measure cut gaps on the other end of the frog, just beyond the wing rails. you will have stalling problems with short wheelbase locomotives like the 0-6-0, but longer wheelbase locomotives and most diesels will run through just fine.
learning the lessons from this area, he handlaid the rest of the railroad, building his own switches. but to this day, slaty fork yard is still in service with the original brass atlas switches. 38 years of heavy usage is not bad.....
Quote from: Mr Mechanic on March 11, 2016, 08:34:16 AM
...the old Atlas turnouts
Quote from: Mr Mechanic on March 11, 2016, 10:45:27 AM
The switches are 40 year old Tyco and I think they are powered all the way through.
Are they Atlas or Tyco? And either one comes stock as insulfrog and
not powered all the way through. Are these switches/turnouts, "Snap Switches" or numbered?
And to Mr. Ward's point, if you had a NMRA Standards Gauge, you could check several dimensions of the components of the turnout/switch. Such as, the Guard Rails, Wing Rails, Frogs, gauge of the track...
Mr. Mechanic:
Just a note about clear fingernail polish.
A few years ago I was having some little movement hiccups at the frog area of a turnout. I figured, like yours, at least one metal drive wheel on a diesel was momentarily touching and shorting out on the adjacent rail top, and I was correct. So I cleaned the rail top area with some alcohol on a rag, borrowed my wife's clear fingernail polish, and with a toothpick or something applied the polish about 1/4" in length on the top of the offending one rail. I let it cure for about an hour then did it again.
Well, it's been over four years and the fix is still working fine (and I run two engines with 63 cars over that fix about 10 times every two days or so.) And of course, the fix is invisible. Also, I'd bet that two or three thin applications on the side of a cleaned rail-head would work fine too.
K487
Sorry about the Tyco Atlas mix up,have had wicked sinus headaches...weather change. They are definitely Atlas and I am not sure about "snap switches" but I seem to remember them being called that. They have power all the way through with a volt meter. Cutting a space in the track sounds like a good fix,will try one and see how it works. Another question I have is how often do I need to do maintenance on the engines,Lube them.I figure about 1 or so hours a day running time. I am using Labelle #107 for bushings and #106 for gears and when I do lube them I take them completely apart,wash the trucks out with Dawn dish washing liquid and warm water, use air to blow out the water and re lube them. Thank all for the advice.
The fingernail polish is sounding like a better fix. Cutting the track, would the other truck,that has power, re power the cut part of the track when running over it through the board? I am running long diesel engines.
Another fix would be to cut a gap in one rail just to the right of the frog. Use a saw or cut off disc. I have Atlas turnouts and all of them, I gaped one rail on the diverging side of the frog and added a power wire past the gap. No problems at all. Joe
Quote from: Mr Mechanic on March 12, 2016, 11:55:57 AM
The fingernail polish is sounding like a better fix. Cutting the track, would the other truck,that has power, re power the cut part of the track when running over it through the board? I am running long diesel engines.
if you have cut gaps in both rails, then they are both isolated from the rest of the layout, and thus won't short.
I wouldn't cut anything just yet.
Quotethe obvious solution, to respace the guard rail to nmra specs, would require a lot of work, including removal of the existing guard rail and fabrication of a new one. you'd have to do this for each guard rail.
Why remove the guard rails if not necessary to fix the problem?
The obvious solution, to at least one other of us (but admittedly I'm not an expert), is to shim the guard rails.
Start with .005 shims, it that's not enough increase it.
Use goo or Aleens tacky glue as a temporary glue, until you find the right amount of shim, then use super glue.
FWIW... the clear nail polish application has merit and has been used for decades very successfully.
Good luck
Cutting the rails wont stop the shorting. I did a little experiment, I took 2 straight track and laid them an inch apart.With track power to just 1 section and with the engine straddling the gap, there is power to the other section of track through the engine. No matter where I would cut the track,it would be fed power through the engine as soon as the engine went across the cut. I would need to make the isolated space longer than the wheelbase of the engine to stop the short and then the engine would stop on the isolated section. Nail polish,I think,will be my best bet.
your short occurs because the backs of your wheels are rubbing one rail while riding on the rail of opposite polarity. by cutting gaps in both rails, you are in effect lengthening the dead section just enough that the wheel backs won't come into contact with the rail of the opposite polarity. the gaps prevent this. even when they are being bridged by a locomotive truck, the dead rails are only being energized by one polarity. thus there will be no short. try it yourself and see.
when I hand build my switches, I do not use plastic frogs. they are pieced together from rail filed to fit. I cut gaps in the rail as I described to isolate the frog from the rest of the switch. they never short on me. as a matter of fact, with all rail frogs like I use, I have the option of powering the frog through contacts on the hand throw, or switch motor, to eliminate the dead spot completely.
I think I understand what to cut now, The rail that the back of the wheel is coming into contact with, not the rail it's on, makes sense now. In the picture,it would be the rail under the screwdriver.
Correction, need to cut both rails because when its on the other rail the wheel can come in contact with the opposite polarity. In the picture,the rail that the screwdriver is on and the one below it.
I've used both nail polish and black automotive touch up paint, but on the side opposite of where the screwdriver is, where the Frog makes the triangle where the two rails meet. The automotive paint has held up better.
Mr., "Snap Switch" is a non-numbered turnout, meant to have the curvature of an 18"R curved section of track for the divergent route.
Also, from the NMRA website:
Another area of difference can be seen in the frog of the turnouts. This is where the rails cross each other. Some turnouts have metal frogs and some bring the rails up to each other, then insulate them with plastic. If a metal frog is insulated but not powered, you may have some locomotives that will stall on the switch. This is more likely in N than in HO. Even in HO, some locos don't pick up power on all their wheels, giving trouble on some No. 6 switches. Atlas has a product called a "Snap Relay" that will power their Custom Line Mark II and III turnouts if you experience this problem. Some turnouts come with a long switch machine mounted on one side, while others have removable machines, and there are also 'under the table' electrical switch machines. There are manual 'ground throw' switch machines, too. Caboose Industries makes one that looks much like the real ones, and it works well. Atlas, Bachmann, AHM, Life-Like, Model Power, Roco and Tyco turnouts are all electrically interchangeable and all use the same size of rail.
Now, after talking about all of this, there is another kind of turnout which matches the above types physically, but is electrically different. Those listed above have the siding electrically live with the same power as the mainline unless an electrical toggle switch is installed. The other kind of turnout is called a selective turnout. It selects the way the power is routed by which way it is thrown. When it is thrown for the siding, the siding is powered and the straight route goes dead. When it is set for the main, the siding is dead. This creates a different wiring situation, and you must be certain that the rails leading out of the turnout are properly insulated to prevent shorts.
Cutting the rails,I am not sure how far up the rail the feed from underneath is,it might be all the way to the end of the rail, and I am worried that the short isolated rail might not have enough support and might loosen up. jbrock27 that is where I thought it was shorting out to begin with, but as you can see from the picture, right in front of the screwdriver, the marks where the short was happening.Going to use some paint and that should fix my problem. Thanks again for all of the advice.
Quote from: Mr Mechanic on March 13, 2016, 06:12:52 AM
Correction, need to cut both rails because when its on the other rail the wheel can come in contact with the opposite polarity. In the picture,the rail that the screwdriver is on and the one below it.
exactly. the whole point is to keep the wheels from contacting two energized rails of opposite polarities. another mod that can be made and probably should be made is to solder a jumper wire between the stock rails and the rails on the far side of the frog. atlas switches rely on the pivot plate at the hinge end of the points to conduct electricity. in your case that is probably a brass rivet. those are a known source of trouble when they oxidize over time and lose contact. you can't solder the hinge point itself but you can solder anywhere else on the closure rails, both before and after the frog.
And I have to agree with James in FL. I would start by shimming the guard rail as well. The method he described is spot on correct in my books, and far easier than cutting into the rail.
Sid
Model railroading is not rocket science.
The reason you are having "shorting" problems is simple deduction.
Your wheels are not in gauge,
Or,
Your turnout is not in gauge,
Or,
Both.
The shorting is not the problem, but rather the result of at least one of those three.
Root cause.
Cause and effect.
Troubleshooting 101.
Nothing need be cut.
To James' points, the NMRA gauge I previously mentioned, would also help with this kind (wheel gauge) of trouble shooting. Among the model RR tools to have, it is in the top 5. ;)
NMRA gauge is on my list of things to buy and the coupler height gauge. I have replaced all the wheels with Bachmann 33" metal wheels #42904. I would say the turnouts are probably out of gauge as old as they are. The paint is drying now,I think that will solve my problem.
Quote from: WoundedBear on March 13, 2016, 12:31:36 PM
And I have to agree with James in FL. I would start by shimming the guard rail as well. The method he described is spot on correct in my books, and far easier than cutting into the rail.
Sid
Sid,
In this case, shimming the guard rails would only pull the wheel closer to the opposite rail, thus increasing the chance of a short, while also creating potential derailment problems. The short is occurring because of the back of the wheel contacting the vertical surface of the opposite rail. Painting the inside surfaces of the rails with nail polish or insulting lacquer is the easiest solution. Pacific Fast Mail used to sell insulating lacquer for use in it's loco sound system installations, but they are long since out of business. It looked, smelled, and applied like nail polish, but it was black in color. It worked pretty well for painting the wheel backs of a loco to make an electrical cam for the "chuff" wiper.
Bill in FtL
James in Florida has the right idea. shimming the surface of the guard rail that is facing the stock rail will tend to pull the wheelsets away from the frog, thus avoiding hitting both polarities at once. Hint: Nail polish, paint, etc., can/will eventually fail and you will be right back to the problem. James has nailed it.
Rich C.
Quote from: Mr Mechanic on March 15, 2016, 08:15:58 AM
...on my list of things to buy...the coupler height gauge.
Also in the top 5. ;)
Paint dried,running through the turnouts no problem. If it wears off,next time i will paint it with POR-15,the gear heads out there will know what that is, that will never wear off. I don't switch tracks that often,so I'm happy again. No more problems to fix.I really thank all that have offered options to fix,and every one was good ,but I chose the easy way out. One last thing, I am really surprised that no one caught what not to do in my static electricity post. Will be lurking to see who's the next post to be deleted. Surprise what stays and what goes. ;D
Quote from: Mr Mechanic on March 15, 2016, 07:46:51 PM
...see who's the next post to be deleted. Surprise what stays and what goes. ;D
I know. Pay attention long enough and you will be amazed... ::)
To Mr. Mechanic : Your static post is still there . Micro-electrical parts are composed of parts the size of dust and are packaged in anti-static packaging . Most people who work with those type of devices know enough to utilize static suppression devices and operate in areas that are grounded . Most people don't realize
how much static voltage that can be generated by moving about . John2.
Quote from: electrical whiz kid on March 15, 2016, 10:40:34 AM
James in Florida has the right idea. shimming the surface of the guard rail that is facing the stock rail will tend to pull the wheelsets away from the frog, thus avoiding hitting both polarities at once. Hint: Nail polish, paint, etc., can/will eventually fail and you will be right back to the problem. James has nailed it.
Rich C.
That could be true if the problem area was indicated to be at the frog, but the OP pointed out with his screwdriver that the problem area was where the rails come near each other as they approach the frog (coming from the points). In this case, shimming won't help (unless the short is actually occurring where the metal rails are close together behind the frog, as they lead away to the two divergent routes, not where the screwdriver indicates).
Bill in FL
I read posts about people that can't figure how to take their engines apart to service,lube them when needed. That post about static was posted for them. Most people here know the damage that static can do to electronic boards. It was meant for for those that don't know. The mistake that I was surprised that no one caught was to ground their motor before working on it. I will give an example.....someone that doesn't know reads that post and connects a ground to their engine, finally gets the shell off and then needs to go do something. When they come back to continue working on it after walking across their carpet and reaches down to pick up their engine,ZAP, they just discharged the static build up in their body to the board sitting on top of the frame. They need to know that your body needs to be grounded first to disperse the build up before touching what they are working on. It was meant for those that don't know.