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Discussion Boards => HO => Topic started by: jonathan on December 20, 2016, 04:53:40 AM

Title: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jonathan on December 20, 2016, 04:53:40 AM
The recent thread about the H16-44, made me dig out my two diesels and inspired me to start this project.

There are two holes on the top of these locos that are just itching to get some flashing lights:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/DSC_0213_zpsvvzlluj4.jpg) (http://s642.photobucket.com/user/jsnvogel/media/DSC_0213_zpsvvzlluj4.jpg.html)

To get ready, I had to renumber one of these locos (I had two #928's), give the shell a shot of dullcote (gonna weather it) and set it aside:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/DSC_0212_zpsrvebu7kw.jpg) (http://s642.photobucket.com/user/jsnvogel/media/DSC_0212_zpsrvebu7kw.jpg.html)

The real project begins with the light board. I used a fine sharpie to mark the board, so I know where the front, right, and left (+-) are located. I also drilled four holes to mount the resistors I'll need for the flashing LEDs:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/DSC_0205_zps9kxxi5fu.jpg) (http://s642.photobucket.com/user/jsnvogel/media/DSC_0205_zps9kxxi5fu.jpg.html)

I used 560K ohm resistors.  Hope it's enough:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/DSC_0208_01_zps2uhujppa.jpg) (http://s642.photobucket.com/user/jsnvogel/media/DSC_0208_01_zps2uhujppa.jpg.html)

Next, I soldered some leads to the pick up tabs... red is positive - yellow is negative:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/DSC_0209_zpsgfk9hsc8.jpg) (http://s642.photobucket.com/user/jsnvogel/media/DSC_0209_zpsgfk9hsc8.jpg.html)

Finally, added the wires to the back:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/DSC_0210_zpsgyxix6me.jpg) (http://s642.photobucket.com/user/jsnvogel/media/DSC_0210_zpsgyxix6me.jpg.html)

That's as far as I've gotten.  The 3mm red flashing LEDs should arrive today or tomorrow.  To be continued...

Regards,

Jonathan

Addendum:  OOPS! I ran the wires through the screw holes.  Not to worry I fixed it.  I'll go wipe the egg off my face now.   ;D
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: Len on December 20, 2016, 01:26:45 PM
Ummmm ???...Putting flashing lights in those holes will make it a tad difficult for the exhaust to get out, won't it???

Len
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jonathan on December 20, 2016, 01:46:20 PM
Not at all. After all, the locomotive is electric!  ;D  ;D

Just trying to make this loco interesting to look at while operating.

Regards,

Jonathan
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jonathan on December 23, 2016, 04:53:57 AM
OK, finished the first diesel.  I don't what I did to my camera, but this first photo turned out super grainy.

Weathered:
(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/DSC_0225_02_zps50zletb4.jpg) (http://s642.photobucket.com/user/jsnvogel/media/DSC_0225_02_zps50zletb4.jpg.html)

The next two shots show the LEDs in action.  I don't have much luck with videos to you'll have to live with this:

(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/DSC_0218_01_zpswewsuz0y.jpg) (http://s642.photobucket.com/user/jsnvogel/media/DSC_0218_01_zpswewsuz0y.jpg.html)

(http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu146/jsnvogel/DSC_0216_02_zpsep7cltxq.jpg) (http://s642.photobucket.com/user/jsnvogel/media/DSC_0216_02_zpsep7cltxq.jpg.html)

Not prototypical, I know, but the kiddies will like it. Well, I like it, too.

On to the next one.

Regards,

Jonathan
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: choochoopapa on December 23, 2016, 09:16:14 AM
So now that the exhaust stack are housing lights where would the exhaust exit.
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jonathan on December 23, 2016, 09:46:13 AM
Alrighty then. I'm going to get all kinds of grief about the exhaust.  8)  I'll just let this thread die the backpage death it obviously deserves.  I'll crawl back into my box now, and go enjoy my blinking light exhaust pipes.  ;D

Merry Christmas to all, and to all, a good night.

See you after the new year.

Regards,

Jonathan
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jbrock27 on December 23, 2016, 12:04:12 PM
Hey, do whatever makes you feel good and what you like :)

Merry Christmas to you as well!
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: WoundedBear on December 23, 2016, 02:26:42 PM
Everyone's a critic....lmao.  ::)

I put a strobe on the back of that SD40 I weathered a while ago. Had a couple guys  tellin' me they never had strobes up there. Like a guy from Louisiana knows about what happened in the Waterways yards of the NAR.....lol.

Some folks need to spend more time building, and less time posting.


Sid
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: Desertdweller on December 23, 2016, 02:31:51 PM
I think we should lighten up on Johnathan.  He did a good, neat job of installing those lights.  It is a good beginning electronics project, much like my addition of directional lighting in my locomotives that did not already have it.

If there needs to be a lesson in this, it should be to do at least a little research into the prototype of what you are modelling.  As far as I know, all FM locomotives have side-by-side exhaust ports if they are using FM engines.

Let's keep a little Christmas Spirit here.

Les
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: WoundedBear on December 23, 2016, 02:42:24 PM
Quote from: Desertdweller on December 23, 2016, 02:31:51 PM

Let's keep a little Christmas Spirit here.

Les

LOLOL....bah humbug ;D

I agree with you Les. I'm on Jonathan side here too. I just say it differently.

Sid
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: Jerrys HO on December 23, 2016, 02:54:38 PM
QuoteEveryone's a critic.

As the ole saying goes... It's your railroad do what you want to"
Jonathan is one of the member's here that I really enjoy his projects.

QuoteHad a couple guys  tellin' me they never had strobes up there. Like a guy from Louisiana knows about what happened in the Waterways yards of the NAR

yep them Louisianians think they know everything  ;D

QuoteSome folks need to spend more time building, and less time posting

What and ruin the fun we have here?

Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jbrock27 on December 23, 2016, 04:07:31 PM
Quote from: Jerrys HO on December 23, 2016, 02:54:38 PM
them Louisianians think they know everything

...but in reality...

JV, where'd you pick up the blinking LEDs?

(Hey, someone get in touch with BigJoe11a !! :D)
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: Jerrys HO on December 23, 2016, 04:23:07 PM
Quote...but in reality...

Wonder where you going with this? I won't stoop to your level of trying to make someone feel/look stupid as you do so well and often unless you want to do it privately on the phone. Sorry jv had to try and end it here.
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jbrock27 on December 23, 2016, 04:49:33 PM
Quote from: Jerrys HO on December 23, 2016, 04:23:07 PM
Wonder where you going with this?

If you have to wonder, then you've proven my point.;)

Quote from: Jerrys HO on December 23, 2016, 04:23:07 PM
I won't stoop to your level of trying to make someone feel/look stupid

Don't know what you mean by level.  Do you perhaps mean upwards?  And, no of course, you would never do that, now would you?.... ::)  People are free to feel or not feel, stupid, at their own discretion.

Quote from: Jerrys HO on December 23, 2016, 04:23:07 PM
trying to make someone feel/look stupid as you do so well and often

That's far from what I do with most of my time here.

Quote from: Jerrys HO on December 23, 2016, 04:23:07 PM
unless you want to do it privately on the phone

If that's an invitation to talk to you on the phone, I'll pass.  Been there, done that.  If I thought you were being genuine, it would be a different story.

Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jonathan on December 23, 2016, 07:38:23 PM
 :D Girls! Girls! You're all pretty.  ;D

Just playing with my toys and having some fun doing something different.  I'm a steam guy, so tricking out a rolling refrigerator was just a diversion.

To answer one question.  I went on ebay and found a company called Lighthouse something or other... They had LEDs with the blinking circuit built right into a 3mm LED, for 60 cents a piece, including shipping.  I may adding a blinking red light to the top of a structure or something. 

It's all good my friends.

I performed the same surgery on the other trainmaster, too.

Regards,

Jonathan
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jbrock27 on December 24, 2016, 08:14:16 AM
Quote from: jonathan on December 23, 2016, 07:38:23 PM
To answer one question.  I went on ebay and found a company called Lighthouse something or other... They had LEDs with the blinking circuit built right into a 3mm LED, for 60 cents a piece, including shipping.  I may adding a blinking red light to the top of a structure or something. 

Regards,

Jonathan

Thank you JV.  That would have been my question, and don't call me Shirley, LOL  :D

Quote from: jonathan on December 23, 2016, 07:38:23 PM
tricking out a rolling refrigerator was just a diversion

Regards,

Jonathan

I take exception to that remark however, LOL  :D

Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: Irbricksceo on December 24, 2016, 11:28:28 PM
Quote from: jbrock27 on December 24, 2016, 08:14:16 AM
Quote from: jonathan on December 23, 2016, 07:38:23 PM
tricking out a rolling refrigerator was just a diversion

Regards,

Jonathan

I take exception to that remark however, LOL  :D



I'm with Jon on this one, to quote a very old movie that I can't seem to remember the name of at the moment, "You can't beat Steam"

Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: bapguy on December 25, 2016, 12:21:53 AM
So do the lights blink alternately. I bet it's cooling looking in a dim room. I like the weathering job. Looks good. Hey Mr. Bach Man, please tell corparate to bring back the H16-44
   Joe
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jbrock27 on December 25, 2016, 06:38:29 AM
Quote from: Irbricksceo on December 24, 2016, 11:28:28 PM
I'm with Jon on this one..."You can't beat Steam"

Never saw that movie, but hey, whatever makes your wheels go 'round.  ;)

On Winter Break from school?
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jonathan on December 25, 2016, 10:04:54 AM
The lights are not in sync. So, they will wink together then, after a bit they will alternate.

Thanks, I enjoyed going heavy on the weathering. These were fun to tinker with.

Regards,

Jonathan
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: Irbricksceo on December 25, 2016, 12:26:56 PM
Quote from: jbrock27 on December 25, 2016, 06:38:29 AM
Quote from: Irbricksceo on December 24, 2016, 11:28:28 PM
I'm with Jon on this one..."You can't beat Steam"

Never saw that movie, but hey, whatever makes your wheels go 'round.  ;)

On Winter Break from school?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LTbay8TZhM#t=21m26s


Edit: Also, just now saw the other comment, chalk it up to me being tired. Yeah, I'm on break from school at the moment. Working on next semesters schedule currently.
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: Martha on December 25, 2016, 05:27:10 PM
Seems a lot of quoting going on here. Which brought John Lennon to mind "So this is Christmas and what have you done"? seems on this particular topic a lot of beaching and complaining. YIKES alert the press Jonathan added two blinking lights to a PRETEND diesel locomotive. Really gentlemen? I come to Bachmann's forum for advice and ideas. Not useless criticism. Jonathan by far has the coolest, detailed, most interesting layouts I follow. It is so exciting to watch his new layout grow. He's almost anal in the details which I find awesome. Who else paints mono fish line to string from pole to pole? I have an 8 year old Grandson who I am introducing to MRR. We are following Jonathan as he is starting over. We are not getting crazy (yet) on going big however I hesitate bringing my grandson onto this site. I want this to be a positive learning tool not a place I need to preview prior to him reading the replies. If someone ask for advice well expect more than one opinion but when a guy is just messing around waiting for his plastercloth to dry and shares a cool thing........ I think the spirit of Christmas just was lost. Hesitant to wish Happy New Year to you all might spark another negative rant. John also said "Give peace a chance".

Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: Jhanecker2 on December 25, 2016, 05:44:49 PM
great movie ,  thanks  Irbricksceo   . John2
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: WoundedBear on December 25, 2016, 08:55:00 PM
I see Jerry is a guest again.  ::)

Sid
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: RAM on December 25, 2016, 10:07:14 PM
Boy did any one have a high speed computer to count all of the safety violations. 
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jbrock27 on December 26, 2016, 12:00:25 PM
Quote from: Irbricksceo on December 25, 2016, 12:26:56 PM
I'm on break from school at the moment. Working on next semesters schedule currently.

Keep up the good work and best of luck!  :)

Quote from: WoundedBear on December 25, 2016, 08:55:00 PM
I see Jerry is a guest again.  ::)

Sid

LMAO  :D
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: tiebreaker on December 31, 2016, 11:45:13 AM
Would it be possible to do something like that for ditch lights. Looks good, would love to see a shot of them working.
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jbrock27 on December 31, 2016, 01:57:22 PM
Check YouTube.  Have come across someone installing them; just don't remember if they flash or not.  The video included a list of parts as well. 
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: tiebreaker on December 31, 2016, 02:15:24 PM
Quote from: jbrock27 on December 31, 2016, 01:57:22 PM
Check YouTube.  Have come across someone installing them; just don't remember if they flash or not.  The video included a list of parts as well. 

have you done this before?
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jbrock27 on December 31, 2016, 02:31:30 PM
Yea, I check YouTube all the time.
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: tiebreaker on December 31, 2016, 02:38:16 PM
Quote from: jbrock27 on December 31, 2016, 02:31:30 PM
Yea, I check YouTube all the time.

I search too but I am looking for some expert advice. I'll keep looking or waiting for Jonathan to reply but thank you anyway.
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jbrock27 on December 31, 2016, 07:02:06 PM
What's the problem with searching out the YouTube I directed you to, to see how some one installed ditch lights ??? ::)
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jonathan on December 31, 2016, 07:06:59 PM
Tiebreaker, I'm no expert, especially on ditch lights. The problem with built in flashers, you can't get much smaller than 3mm LEDs. One needs something in the SMD range to light ditchers. The flasher unit would be a separate purchase and must be small enough to fit inside the shell.

Afraid YouTube may be your best bet.

Regards,

Jonathan
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jbrock27 on December 31, 2016, 07:10:45 PM
Quote from: jonathan on December 31, 2016, 07:06:59 PM
Afraid YouTube may be your best bet.

Regards,

Jonathan

"Afraid" ???
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: tiebreaker on December 31, 2016, 07:14:04 PM
Thanks  Jonathan for your reply. I did not know if the LED's you used come any smaller.
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jbrock27 on December 31, 2016, 07:18:18 PM
Did you try searching, like, the Internet?
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: tiebreaker on December 31, 2016, 07:29:21 PM
Is there a point to keep pushing the internet search. I joined this forum for possible help in areas I am not familiar with. Apparently you are an internet junkie as you have no relevant information to provide and from what I have seen on other posts by you  there seems to be a lot of sarcastic remarks by you and that is not the path I will take.
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: bapguy on December 31, 2016, 09:10:14 PM
Check these guys out.   Joe

http://www.ngineering.com/lghting%20effects%20for%20the%20railroad.htm
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: tiebreaker on December 31, 2016, 09:35:47 PM
Thanks Bapguy! My INTERNET search did not even bring this up.
I figured someone here could help.
I am good with soldering and only have one I am interested in doing so I may be in the near future taking advantage of this site.
Thanks again
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jbrock27 on December 31, 2016, 10:31:27 PM
Quote from: tiebreaker on December 31, 2016, 07:29:21 PM
Is there a point to keep pushing the internet search.

Yea, there is, as proof right here:

Quote from: bapguy on December 31, 2016, 09:10:14 PM
Check these guys out.   Joe

http://www.ngineering.com/lghting%20effects%20for%20the%20railroad.htm

There is no reason you could not have found that yourself, as Joe did.

I get that you have come here for help friend and I am glad to take my own time to provide it, as I have done for others in the past, but you don't strike me as the kinda cat who wants to take any control or responsibility or effort to search out answers to your questions.  Even after a suggestion is thrown you way.   I am not your guy if you are looking to get spoon feed and have someone do YOUR leg work for you.  Don't be lazy, this hobby is about research, learning and doing.  Learn how to use the Internet as the best tool that could ever happen to this hobby.  I don't know what prompted your attitude toward me, but I suggest you tone it down some.
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: tiebreaker on December 31, 2016, 11:37:40 PM
Mr. Brock,
Yes I do research a lot of things but there are times when the wording is a little different you may not find the information such as Bapguy provided. My search did not yield that info that I am so grateful for.

If your suggestion is everyone should use the internet to search for answers then answer this for me...
What good is this or any other forum?
Why does Bachmann have a forum called "Ask the Bachmann"?

You state the help you give others? What may that be?  Degrading is not help. Need an example? In another post just recently it was asked about a 2-10-0 issue and the only unintelligent response was yours about the dirty track. Although my answer was not correct and Mr. Sid had the correct answer, what was cleaning the track going to do to fix it?

I read a lot of posts on here and you seem to enjoy bickering with most. Why does Bachmann allow this sort of behavior? I was under the assumption this forum was for all ages and all questions. A friendly forum it is not and you seem to be in most if not all of the bad situations.

I guess this forum was not for me and I should take my questions and turn them into searches on the net to yield the answers I look for.

There is more I could say but you are not worth my time.
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jbrock27 on January 01, 2017, 10:01:03 AM
You seem to have an anger issue my good man (or woman for all I know, I have no way of knowing).  I hope that 2017 brings about a change to your disposition.

Quote from: tiebreaker on December 31, 2016, 11:37:40 PM
I do research a lot of things but there are times when the wording is a little different

Then try changing the order of the words, try using different words, try putting words in quotes...

Quote from: tiebreaker on December 31, 2016, 11:37:40 PM
What good is this or any other forum?

This forum has its uses and its limitations.  My suggestion is not to resign yourself to getting info strictly from this one.  Much like what I believe in not getting all your news from one source...

Quote from: tiebreaker on December 31, 2016, 11:37:40 PM
Why does Bachmann have a forum called "Ask the Bachmann"?

If you stick around long enough here, you will discover the true meaning and answer your own question.

Quote from: tiebreaker on December 31, 2016, 11:37:40 PM
You state the help you give others? What may that be?  I read a lot of posts on here and you seem to enjoy bickering with most.  

If you truly read through the history of my posts, you would see that I have spent more than my fair share of time helping others. But I suspect you did not and instead are simply seeking to disparage my reputation with your baseless comments.  To say I "enjoy bickering" is as far from a truthful statement as you can make, but I understand you're making it bc I am not in complete agreement with you.  I don't shy away from sharing my opinion or noting my disagreeing with the opinions of others when warranted, under the same principle of it not being a good idea to accept or receive all your information from one source. ;)

Quote from: tiebreaker on December 31, 2016, 11:37:40 PM
Degrading

Hmmmm, I have seen this word and other words that begin with "D" before....  Don't agree that I degrade, demean or any of the other words that begin with "D", people.

Quote from: tiebreaker on December 31, 2016, 11:37:40 PM
In another post just recently it was asked about a 2-10-0 issue and the only unintelligent response was yours about the dirty track.

I had asked sedfred,the OP, why he kept dirty track.  That you don't find the intelligence in questioning that, well, frankly I think speaks to your intelligence about the importance of having clean track.

Quote from: tiebreaker on December 31, 2016, 11:37:40 PM
I was under the assumption this forum was for all ages and all questions. A friendly forum

It is for all ages and it is a friendly Forum. :)

Quote from: tiebreaker on December 31, 2016, 11:37:40 PM
...you seem to be in most if not all of the bad situations.

I disagree with you completely on this.  What is the motivation behind your attempts to disparage my reputation?

Quote from: tiebreaker on December 31, 2016, 11:37:40 PM
I guess this forum was not for me

Please remain.  I promise you that any other questions you post that I see I can provide assistance on, I will gladly do so. :)

Quote from: tiebreaker on December 31, 2016, 11:37:40 PM
I should take my questions and turn them into searches on the net to yield the answers I look for.

All I have been suggesting, is make an effort, an attempt to do research first, then bounce ideas off here.  That is just good practice.  Why have to rely strictly on what someone else tells you w/o having some background info first.  It just makes common sense.  Would you buy a car w/o doing any research on it first, or would you just completely rely on what the salesman tells you?

Quote from: tiebreaker on December 31, 2016, 11:37:40 PM
you are not worth my time.

No need to be dismissive.  Ok to think it if you want, but would appreciate your not posting/saying it.  It really is unnecessary and low brow to say the least.

Knowing how to solder is going to serve you very well in this hobby.  It is an excellent skill to have. :)
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: tiebreaker on January 01, 2017, 11:21:19 AM
As I stated before you are not worth my time.
Thank you for reassuring my need for soldering skills as I have been in this hobby for quite some time.
My intention of joining this forum as well as other forums was more for ideas and just to get different opinions on things.
Never in my life did I dream of being belittled by someone who assumes everyone who signs up knows nothing of the hobby.
As far as your reputation goes... You must have a need to protect what seems to be an internet modeler otherwise you would just let it go and move on but I have this inclination that you will not let go until you have the final word.
So go on with your closing statements as this will end mine with you.

@Sid, your advice is well taken but should be shared with others.
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jbrock27 on January 01, 2017, 11:36:11 AM
You're seeing and sensing things that are not there friend :D

Clearly, you cannot even accept a positive and complimentary comment your way, without a snarky, negatively toned remark.  Sad for you friend.

Why don't you ask Sid what his opinion of me is?  ;)
Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: tiebreaker on January 01, 2017, 12:08:17 PM
Why?He will not change my opinion of you. I need no clarification of my OWN opinion but apparently you do.

Quote
Quote from: jbrock27 on January 01, 2017, 11:36:11 AM
Why don't you ask Sid what his opinion of me is?  ;)

Title: Re: Tinkering with the Baby Trainmaster
Post by: jbrock27 on January 01, 2017, 01:05:47 PM
Quote from: tiebreaker on January 01, 2017, 12:08:17 PM
my opinion of you

And that should to be of any consequence to me because...?

You appeared to have brought Sid into this back and forth for some reason.  In doing so, I therefore felt it relevant for you to inquire of him, what his opinion of me was.  Perhaps I am confused about your reason for doing so.  So then, which of his advises were you imploring with him to share with others, as he gives lots of (good & sound) advice ?