I saw the photo of the new Athearn UP FEF-3 in the latest Model Railroader. All I can say is that I wish I was back in HO again.
The news is not good on this model. A throwback to the 2-8-2 perhaps?
http://www.tonystrains.com/tonystips/2007/112907.htm
I will only consider the Athearn diesels, stay away from the steam, go Spectrum, go BLI, go Proto, just go elsewhere.
Well, it was never on my "want list" so no problem here.
But, before we throw the baby out with the bath water, lets wait to see if this is one bad loco at Tonys or a real problem.
If we judged Bachmann locos by the few that have to be sent back, they would have a very bad reputation, but they don't.
No offense to Woody, but I'm sick of large west coast steam. I've seen several life times worth of GS4's, Big Boys, FEF's, Challengers, etc., made in HO - and I still don't own models of any of them.
Sheldon
Atlantic Central
What makes the Tony's warning most interesting is that it is mentioned that a number of engines were tested. All with the same result. You did read the Tony's warning?
Manufacturing defects often run in batches, a bad group of parts, a worker making the same mistake, a worker with a bad jig or tool. so even two or three or four all at the same shop, most likely all shipped together from the same case (this is likely since the loco is just out) does not a product condemnation make.
But as I said, it matters not to me. Until they make something new I am interested in, the only Athearn locos I buy are Genesis F units and RS3's.
Its 1953 on the east coast at my Railroad, and Big Boys can't make the curves on our mountain division, and our Allegheny's are more powerfull anyway. And, if you have an Allegheny, why would you even bother with a Challenger or and FEF?
Sheldon
http://www.tonystrains.com/tonystips/2007/112907.htm (http://www.tonystrains.com/tonystips/2007/112907.htm)
I haven't purchased an Athearn steam engine since the 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 broken gear issue.
I'll bet the farm that a certain well known magazine with the initials "MR" will give it a glowing review.
I am not a fan of west coast engines and remember well the problems with Athearn's previous steamers. My comment refers to the appearance - the fidelity to detail that didn't exist when I modelled in H0 two decades ago.
Hopefully Athearn has debugged the engine. I think a NYC Niagra would be a great choice for a big engine.
I haver never relied on a MR or RMC review to buy anything. I always rely on word of mouth. However if you are interested in a model's foot pounds of torque and draw bar pull while pulling a simulated train up a 1.6948 percent grade then the MR review is for you.
Well, said, Sheldon. Alleghenys over the Alleghanys!
Gene
Trying to remember the reaction to the Proto Y3 2-8-8-2 when it was announced and the ads first appeared. It sure was a far cry from the Riverossi Y6 modle that is still available.
At least I do not have one of the first releases of that model sitting in storage like a few others I know. Allthough I do have some others (such as the Athearn 2-8-2)
drhone,
Not sure I get your meaning? I have two early release Proto 2-8-8-2's, they run great and pull reasonably well - and look great double headed at the front of a coal drag. Why would anyone have them in storage?
As for Athearn Mikes, I have two that are running fine on the orginal gears. I did weight them and rewire them, which was a big job, and I know many who had the gear problem, but mine run and pull quite well now.
Admittedly, I would not buy any more Athearn Mikes and go to all that work on them, but their here now and run fine.
Sheldon
Atlantic Central
I did have a Proto Y3 from the first release and it would indeed need to be double headed to pull a moderate load up any type of incline. I did double head it with other steam engines and of course all was well then. However choose not to double head it and lucky for me the Hobby Shop I bought it at gave me a credit for it.
As for the Athearn 2-8-2's you were luckier than me, two of them both with split gears. Within a week both engines had failed. Did recently obtain gear replacements so there is a chance that they may come out of storage after all.
New gears seem to solve the 2-8-2/4-6-2 gear problems. They still don't pull much and I really don't want to go through the obvious bother of taking off the boiler to add weight to it. My first would not stay on the track and I sent it back to Athearn who agreed it had all kinds of problems with the frame, which they replaced and it tracks well now. It just doesn't pull.
Gene
It seems to be that my mistake was purchasing the "initial" first releases not long after their debut.
Instead I should have done my homework and waited. I could have checked thevarious forums for others comments and suggestions.
The Proto engines for example have certainly upgraded their engines, optional traction tires, improved electrical pick ups. The new engines are certainly improvements over the first offerings. Unfortunately I seem prone to being impatient and not waiting and researching the items. Finding out later in a number of cases I have a "documented" problem engine.
drhone,
Well, I would like to get some of those traction tire drivers for my Proto 2-8-8-2's, but, my view on grades is that they should be prototypical. I keep mainline grades on my layout below 2%. On those grades, and with very free rolling cars, two Proto 2-8-8-2's do just fine.
I have done much research into free rolling trucks and improved the pulling capacity of all my locos by nearly double, just by replacing trucks and wheelsets.
The prototype found grades to be the major challenge for steam locos as well. It usually took four EM-1's (2-8-8-4) to get 80-100 loaded hoppers over the Allegany sumitt on the B&O. That's only 20-25 cars a piece. But, as I have pointed out before, they would have never considered leaving the yard with one loco and 25 cars.
I can pull 40+ Athearn (and similar) twin hoppers up 1.8% grades with two Proto 2-8-8-2's (or my two Bachmann 2-6-6-2's). And, the Bachmann and the Proto run fine together for a mixed look (one of each).
Sheldon
Gene and Sheldon;
I have two Athearn mikes and two Athearn pacifics, and t odate, have had no problems, other than tracking problems wit hthe mike, which I got around by playing with the front end. The pacifics can pull a respectable train on a level track, as well as can the mikes. As these were fairly light engines in real life, I wouldn't suppose that either one would pull up a significant grade. Most of my grades I had-and will have again-are no more than about 1/4"-1', if that.
As with you guys, my Bachmann, BLI and Proto engines negotiate my "trackage" very well. I have a Mantua 2-6-6-2 that is a honey on rails, and she can pull. The two Bachmann 2-6-6-2s will do likewise. I do plan to have a very long grade; probably running along the back of the wall area to get up to the second level. On this will I run the articulateds, probably with whole cuts of cement hoppers, boxes, etc; in the thirty + category.
As with Sheldon, I would like to see Bachmann come out with some Moguls, or ten-wheelers of a more contemporary type than last. Those New England scenes will look rather incongruous running big engines theough them, but what the hey...
Rich
I have an Athearn Genesis Big Boy, Challenger, and the new FEF-3. All run very well, and are well made.
I had a few of the Athearn light mikes and after adding weight all pulled reasonably well. The one and only light pacific I bought did indeed break it's drive gear and has sat in it's box since then. The P2K engines were all great but I think the 0-6-0 was their best offering. The 2-8-4 was in my mind a disaster. Out of 6 engines I bought only one still runs the rest all suffered some sort of failure and those wheels on the first editions, total rubbish. I went back to buying brass engines to get almost correct C&O versions. Same with the Allegheny, buy brass as the very expensive plastic one doesn't really cut it. Now and this is for Gene we should really try and convince Mr B to build an H-7 and a K-3 as brass ones are getting really expensive and rather rare for the H-7.
regards
Charles Emerson
Ozzie21,
Why does the Rivarossi Allegheny not "cut it" in your opinion? Mine run great and pull nearly as well as my BLI N&W Class A. As for detail they look better than any brass Alegheny I have ever seen.
My personal favorite of the PK2000 steamers is the 0-8-0, later version with the traction tires, but I have two early 2-8-8-2's I am very happy with as well. I do not have the 4-8-2 as it does not fit the theme of my railroad and I heard the early reports of its poor performance.
I will admitt, I am a free lance modeler, and even for those models lettered for a prototype road, I don't get my panties in a bunch over a rivet here or and overfire jet there.
Just my opinion, but since steam locos all went through so many changes, repairs, modifications, etc, worring about such small details seems silly. Except for the off chance you have full set of photos of the loco number you are modeling, taken on the date your are modeling, how do you or anyone else really know how "correct" or incorrect it is?
As for brass, I know many of the newer pieces do run nice, but after my experiances with it in the seventies, you can have it all. I'm not paying that kind of money for locos that require overhauling, ajusting and tuning up to get them running.
At the Chevy prices of Bachmann, Proto, BLI/PCM and similar products if I have to make an ajustment or send in for a warranty replacement that's one thing. But for brass prices it should run perfect out of the box and many don't.
Sheldon
I'm all for an H-7 and K-3, as well as any of the later F models. (C&O, of course - who needs a PRR K-3?)
Gene
Well detail wise it's sort of okay though the stack the wrong height for the engine number. It's a bit to long, the amount of daylight under the boiler is way to much and the wheels are way undersize. I'm afraid I'll stick with my crown series brass ones which are excellect runners that will out pull a Hornby Allegheny of which I had three which all spat off their traction tyres same as the BLI "A" class and T-1. The P2K 0-8-0 is an excellent model but I'm finding plastic to be a bit more fragile than brass and when it comes to repairs soldering is a lot longer lasting than glueing.
Ozzie21
Quote from: Atlantic Central on December 06, 2007, 07:42:41 AM
Ozzie21,
Why does the Rivarossi Allegheny not "cut it" in your opinion? Mine run great and pull nearly as well as my BLI N&W Class A. As for detail they look better than any brass Alegheny I have ever seen.
My personal favorite of the PK2000 steamers is the 0-8-0, later version with the traction tires, but I have two early 2-8-8-2's I am very happy with as well. I do not have the 4-8-2 as it does not fit the theme of my railroad and I heard the early reports of its poor performance.
I will admitt, I am a free lance modeler, and even for those models lettered for a prototype road, I don't get my panties in a bunch over a rivet here or and overfire jet there.
Just my opinion, but since steam locos all went through so many changes, repairs, modifications, etc, worring about such small details seems silly. Except for the off chance you have full set of photos of the loco number you are modeling, taken on the date your are modeling, how do you or anyone else really know how "correct" or incorrect it is?
As for brass, I know many of the newer pieces do run nice, but after my experiances with it in the seventies, you can have it all. I'm not paying that kind of money for locos that require overhauling, ajusting and tuning up to get them running.
At the Chevy prices of Bachmann, Proto, BLI/PCM and similar products if I have to make an ajustment or send in for a warranty replacement that's one thing. But for brass prices it should run perfect out of the box and many don't.
Sheldon
OK Ozzie21,
I can't help but ask another question. How, or with what, do you clean your track? OR do you just play that hard? BECAUSE I have never lost, damaged or worn out a traction tire and I have most of those models you mentioned. But based on other comments you have made such as "broken" Proto 2-8-4's, maybe you just play harder than most of us.
And, I know lots of other modelers with all these locos who have not had any problems with mechanisms or traction tires. Just ask Virginian on this board as well. As for pulling power how much do you pull? I have pulled 75 cars with my Class A and have been on the throttle of a Rivarossi Allegheny pulling 68 cars. That was on a friends layout with 1.8% helix grades. Both handle their trains fine with no traction tire problems.
As for being fragile, yes they are, they are models not toys - I have not had to repair any in the first place - so for me its not an issue.
Sheldon
I clean my track with CRC applied to a roller pad. Every month the the track cleaning train gets run around. It's made up of two old bachmann SD45's and 10 40' boxcars. The first four cars have masonite pads under them, the next car is a buffer then the roller car then the last three cars have MDF pads under them. Once a year a I get the bright boy and give the track a good going over. I found the traction tyres on the Rivarossi/Hornby Allegheny a bit soft and they only rolled off on my superelevated curves which have now been removed. The BLI A class lasted a lot longer maybe two years before it's traction tyres needed replacing. The BLI T-1's I have got the non traction tyred wheels fitted as soon as I got them out of the box. The P2K 2-8-4's played up from day one, 3 went back straight away, two I repaired and one was basket case but it had the noble distinction of becoming a decent body on IHC Hudson mech. I don't have the ability to run 75 car trains as my longest sidings will only take 40 40' cars.
As for "playing" hard I used to host 2 or three operating sessions a month with two round robin groups plus my regular NMRA group. An average session was around 5 hrs. Now most of my brass locos have had their wheels replaced over the years and some now have stainless steel tyres fitted. BLI locos have stood up better than the Rivarossi locos and the Bachmann locos better than any of the RTR models. And yes I may be old but I do realise that they are models and not toys.
Ozzie21
Quote from: Atlantic Central on December 08, 2007, 10:18:38 AM
OK Ozzie21,
I can't help but ask another question. How, or with what, do you clean your track? OR do you just play that hard? BECAUSE I have never lost, damaged or worn out a traction tire and I have most of those models you mentioned. But based on other comments you have made such as "broken" Proto 2-8-4's, maybe you just play harder than most of us.
And, I know lots of other modelers with all these locos who have not had any problems with mechanisms or traction tires. Just ask Virginian on this board as well. As for pulling power how much do you pull? I have pulled 75 cars with my Class A and have been on the throttle of a Rivarossi Allegheny pulling 68 cars. That was on a friends layout with 1.8% helix grades. Both handle their trains fine with no traction tire problems.
As for being fragile, yes they are, they are models not toys - I have not had to repair any in the first place - so for me its not an issue.
Sheldon
Ozzie21,
CRC as in electronics cleaner? Just my opinion, but that might be part of your traction tire problem. Even though you obviously wipe it down good with your followup cleaning pads as discribed, CRC seems a bit strong/harsh in my mind.
I think many of us who are traction tire fans will agree that alcohol is the only safe liquid to clean track with in conjuction with traction tires.
And, this is a compliment, you do play hard, that is a lot of operating and no doubt a lot of different "hands" on stuff. I belong to only one round robin group and we only have 3 hour operating sessions on an average of once a month for each member with an operating layout.
I will agree completely that the Bachmann locos are very durable and a great value. Most of my steam fleet is Bachmann Spectrum.
As I might have said before, I have no experiance with the Proto 2-8-4, it does not fit my railroads "scheme" and I heard the bad pulling reports before even thinking about buying one. My railroad does interchange with the C&O so there is that possablity with the new Bachmann model.
The Class A and Reading T-1 are the only BLI/PCM pieces I have. I don't care for sound and/or most of the prototypes in their line do not interest me.
I don't run any ?-10-? anythings because I feel they are too long even for my 36" and larger radius curves. that rules out a lot of BLI/PCM pieces even if I was interested in them.
I know from following your other posts that you where an experianced modeler, and did not mean to imply otherwise. I was just interested in why your "experiances" with the locos in question was so different from myself and others I know and have spoken with.
Thanks for the info.
Sheldon