Dear Mr. Bach-Man.
I've went through the 2020 catalog just today, and I must say that I am very disappointed with the Large Scale offerings this year. In my eyes, the large scale range is a shell of what it once was. The only thing I was happy to see was the addition of Diesel to the Thomas the Tank Engine items, but that's about it. Everything else was just kind of a letdown. So, I'm going to explain what I had particular issues with:
•The DCC-Equipped Thomas the Tank Engine seems to have been discontinued, with Percy now being the only engine with DCC fitted. I was honestly hoping see another DCC-Equipped Engine, such as Toby.
•The roster of starter sets is literally the saddest thing on the planet. All we have is the Ringling Bros. L'il Big Haulers Set, The North Woods Logger, and the Night Before Christmas Set. Every other set, including the Percy Set, have seemed to have the way of the dodo. I don't seem to understand the logic of discontinuing the Thomas starter set, as Thomas is the one character EVERYBODY wants for their layouts, and yet, we can only get Thomas as a separate sale item.
•The Motive Power Department is severely lacking. We are lacking some of the quintessential engines, such as the Shay, Outside-Frame 2-8-0, 44-Tonner, Gas-Powered "Diesel", etc...
•Rolling Stock is even more lacking, as our selection seems severely limited compared to what we had in previous years.
Bachmann, I really desire to see more from your G Scale Line. You're the leading manufacturer of G-Scale Narrow Gauge Equipment. I desire to see you give us a little more thah what we currently have.
And I suspect it will stay that way. Mr. Riley was the big champion of 1:20.3. In a way you can not fault Bachmann. Everyone wanted this or that but waited until basically Trainworld or similar blew them out at very low prices. Guessing not too much return for example on a Climax at MSRP 1299 and blow out of 200.
I am also dissappointed with the Large scale parts division offerings.
If we can't get the new engines, we should at least be able to get the parts needed to keep our older Bachmann engines running otherwise we are looking for dead donor engines to pop up on ebay or having to buy a second new engine to cannibalize for parts and that's a waste.
Otherwise we're looking at possibly having to build the parts ourselves from scratch which takes a lot of time and labor like on the real engines.
For the Bachmann Spectrum Climax, Shay, Heisler, and 45-ton Diesel, replacement trucks should be readily available, circuit boards should be readily available, for the 2-8-0s, 4-4-0s and 2-6-0s, the new metal gearboxes and axles should be readily available along with replacement metal pilot and tender trucks now that North West Shortline is out of business.
Cosmetic parts such as bells whistles, smoke stacks, and headlamps, domes, cabs, cross head pumps, and handrails would be nice to have readily available, but not as essential as drive train components, structural components, and circuit boards like cylinder assemblies, boiler assemblies, power trucks, motors, gear box assemblies, pilot, and tender trucks.
I understand the lack of new inventory, but at the very least, we can have replacement parts readily available to keep our older engines in working order as parts and components wear out over time. And some of those parts that have run out of stock, are not being re-stocked, and the parts department is almost never helpful over the phone, so it's very disappointing that not only the new inventory is lacking, but the lack of availability of replacement parts inventory.
Kader (who own Bachmann) normally does not make detail parts except at time of a full manufacturing run. The exceptions are normally "consumables" like couplers, wheelsets, etc. (and the way they are "consumed" this should include drive gears).
With the slowdown in production of G scale, so go the parts.
It's unfortunate, since I believe the parts business can be made profitable, but as in the last post, people want a wide selection of parts, and it most likely does not make economic sense. (One could argue in fact it makes perfect sense, Kader has determined parts only is not profitable as evidenced by their decision to not have all parts available all the time).
Aristo-Craft was make by Kader too and the owner made it clear that the factory did not like making parts, in fact would just provide a few extra locos and let you pull the parts from them, kind of like owning a Jag and having a junker for parts.
Greg
I can certainly see why Bachmann is backing off from G scale. They are not in business to loose money.
I have a beautiful Buick rail truck that needs a bevel gear that is not available. I also have a 4-4-0 and the companion 2-6-0 that are absolutely beautiful models. However I am reluctant to run both as parts are scarce. I also realize that they can fail in the box (plastic gears splitting on axles). I have been tempted to purchase one of the Climax locomotives. However, I don't need another dead locomotive when the inevitable happens. I wouldn't mind paying list price for a model that I could keep running for decades. I do have several locomotives that have been running on my garden railway, due to the availability of spare parts, for over 30 years.
Quote from: greevesqub on March 04, 2020, 01:48:43 PM
I can certainly see why Bachmann is backing off from G scale. They are not in business to loose money.
I have a beautiful Buick rail truck that needs a bevel gear that is not available. I also have a 4-4-0 and the companion 2-6-0 that are absolutely beautiful models. However I am reluctant to run both as parts are scarce. I also realize that they can fail in the box (plastic gears splitting on axles). I have been tempted to purchase one of the Climax locomotives. However, I don't need another dead locomotive when the inevitable happens. I wouldn't mind paying list price for a model that I could keep running for decades. I do have several locomotives that have been running on my garden railway, due to the availability of spare parts, for over 30 years.
There is a gentleman in MA making replacement gears in Delrin for the most popular/problematic gearboxes. His email is girotek@rcn.com and he is quite active on Facebook.
Fred, therein lies the rub for many of the senior modelers. I, like many, do not get on Facebook. Aside of the fact that my employer HIGHLY RECOMMENDS us NOT open our security to a medium that has many time displayed it's inability or lack of desire to secure folks PII.
Beyond that, Facebook is a 'Gossip Fence' in that it is 'here today gone tomorrow'. There is no effective search feature to locate a single piece of data you are interested in. I don't have hours to scroll through hundreds of posts to find the one item I want. As a hobbyist Facebook is useless to me for finding parts, etc.
Sorry to offend the Facebook foamers, but that is my thoughts. By the way, it would have been nice if you included a means to find this Facebook provider for those who wish to pursue that avenue.
What was a good idea to start, turned into a drama machine that just wants to profile you like Google and the rest. Don't waste my time on it.
And I thought profiling was illegal :(
LOL I completely agree with all those things about Facebook, but let's not stray too far away from the topic in this chat room. I think it's wonderful that someone has stepped up to provide necessary parts. Some individuals doing this have been quite successful in the HO scale market abundant with parts, so I can only imagine how successful individuals producing large scale parts can be.
Hi All,
The aftermarket parts makers are the future for us, and 3d printing makes it all possible. I see some nice things being made with 3D printers. But those guys need to make a profit too. I see some 3D printed detail parts coming out that I would really like to have, but the prices are too high for me right now.
As for the market for G scale overall I feel that the level of detail on those products now being made lack good detail. At the same time many long out of production locomotives and cars made by USAT Aristo and Bachmann are going for much higher prices in the aftermarket than ever. I wish Bachmann could produce some of the old Aristo models, since Kader owns the dies. But an inside source told me that Kader has moved their factory to a new location and many of the old dies are lost or damaged. Seems a shame. I model the steam to diesel era and would love to see a Baldwin switcher and road unit.
Enough whining on my part ;D, I think I will go play with my trains ::)
Loco Bill
Bill, exactly! As an engineering student, I can tell you that CAD files take an enormous time investment to make to particular specifications from new, let alone trying to copy another part exactly. And the cost of 3D printers, don't even get me started :o ......
I take issue with that statement. Obviously you have NEVER spent any time reverse engineering a product on the drawing board with real drafting tools. Try working in india ink on 4 mil mylar in a white shirt and tie....and don't get the ink on the shirt or tie. (Oh wait, you probably don't even know what either one of those mediums are.) I can do in modern CAD in 25% of the time what it took to do engineering on the drawing board.
Yes, doing the reverse engineering to make the models of the parts takes time. I have reverse engineered hundreds of items in my career, and know well what time it takes. It takes more time to engineer the original than the copy. Reverse engineering the parts is only a small part of the cost associated with generating a production part. Cost one - getting the reverse engineered part RIGHT. When you reverse engineer a part, you are measuring a part that is usually already worn to some degree, and was originally built within some tolerance range to make the part both manufacturable, and cost efficient. Where are the measurements you are taking relative to those unknown numbers.
Next, when you are generating 3D stl files, dependent on the size and shape of the part there will be bridging elements that will be put in by the printing software to keep the part's shape during printing. If there, someone has to remove them after print. Now you test fit you part and hope you guessed right on the critical dimensions the first time. If not, it goes back the the model and adjustment are made and a second round of print and test.
Now add the cost of the printer into the mix. If you are aiming for production level capability you are looking at a moderately priced piece of gear, somewhere in the $20K range (this being for a machine with a large enough bed to produce near anything in one piece or quantities of pieces). Then quantities of parts in one pass requires an assembly model to be produced to move forward with multipart prints.
Oh, and did we discuss the individual who is doing all the work? I will venture a bet that he would like some compensation for his time and investment in the hardware and filament to generate the parts.
I think if you break all that information out and do an honest analysis, the price for those otherwise unobtainable parts is not so steep after all.
I have spent 49 years in the engineering profession. Started in 1971 as a drafter making hand drawn ink on mylar drawings, and worked my way through AutoCAD, AutoDesk Inventor, Solid Edge, SolidWorks and PTC ProE/Creo. I know how long models take to make, they are a breeze next to board drawings, patterns/casting/machining/welding/etc to get a part.
@armorsmith, as I said I am a student. I don't have years upon years of experience in the field, so my skills are not as sharp as yours. I am not looking to stir up controversy, just addressing someone else's concern.
-Jay
That was exactly my point. My intent was not to 'call you out' but rather to bring to light that what an item costs vs it's perceived expense sometimes needs clarification for those not knowledgeable in the fields of engineering and manufacturing.
The cost per piece is governed by many factors, but one that is not usually considered is 'how many pieces in a production run. All the costs associated with manufacturing that part are borne out over the number of parts manufactured. The same burden cost (engineering, tooling, machine set up, etc) to manufacture an axle gear for the Bachmann mogul is there regardless of making one piece or 1000 pieces. However when you distribute that cost over 1000 pieces plus the actual part cost (material), the per part cost is much less for the multi part run than for making one.
Considering that the modeling time to generate the file for a 3D printed part is really not readily distributed over a large run, that cost is going to make the part seem expensive. And consider that when someone says an item is expensive, it is based on his perception. You as a student should understand the restrictions of fixed income vs escalation cost of products. Bill's perception of cost relative to his income situation is likely far different from folks still working and making a good living or those in the high income bracket that think $5K for a live steam loco is a drop in the bucket.
Perception IS reality.
I wish you well in your studies, and I would encourage you to continue on to your degree and beyond. As an old fart, I wish schools taught more of the basics I learned oh so many years ago. I believe it would make better designers and engineers of young people.
Quote from: Chris9017 on March 03, 2020, 03:55:17 AM
Cosmetic parts such as bells whistles, smoke stacks, and headlamps, domes, cabs, cross head pumps, and handrails would be nice to have readily available, but not as essential as drive train components, structural components, and circuit boards like cylinder assemblies, boiler assemblies, power trucks, motors, gear box assemblies, pilot, and tender trucks.
I understand the lack of new inventory, but at the very least, we can have replacement parts readily available to keep our older engines in working order as parts and components wear out over time. And some of those parts that have run out of stock, are not being re-stocked, and the parts department is almost never helpful over the phone, so it's very disappointing that not only the new inventory is lacking, but the lack of availability of replacement parts inventory.
I have never found ANY pat that I need in stock.
and here in UK, buying another loco to keep one going is just not cost effective. Would YOU pay $500 for an older Climax, plus maybe another $50 for shipping?
Again, basically Kader is out of the 1:20.3 scale. Doubt it is ever coming back.
Improvise, substitute, try to find junkers to strip.
With the shrinking population in the hobby, the used market is alive and well....
Greg
Greg is right about the used market, it is very strong!! I have noticed that many out of production used G Scale (all sizes) are going up in price. I am seeing a 7 to 15% increase in prices from over a year ago. Low production items even more. I can't believe some of the prices, A UP USAT GP9 with all the parts missing, including the swing hangers, just the loco and trucks and no box just went for $370 used, and a USAT ALCO S4 just went for $530.
Bill
A fool and his money are soon parted. People's desire to own something often over rides their common sense. I recently purchased at an estate sale, a large scale K27 for less than half what I paid Caboose Hobbies for my first one in 2008. I have looked for another for several years, but was not willing, and am still not willing, to pay inflated prices.
I have heard way too many horror stories about eBay sellers to trust eBay listings. I generally don't troll eBay, but trolled the On30 listings last evening. Almost every listing I looked into said almost nothing in print about the item with the statement "photos are part of the item description". Some were stock photos taken from manufacturer's web sites. How do I know that the photos of the item are photos of the item I am bidding on? Do I trust seller ratings? HELL NO!! The rating system is a sham. I am of the mind set that if I cannot inspect the item before purchase, I don't need it. Years ago eBay was a good place to do business. eBay has become far to commercialized and protects the sellers (who pay the eBay fees) to the extent buyers are left relatively on their own. Yes there is a system, but I don't have weeks or months for my money to be tied up in eBay investigations.
I have always believed that the used market should not draw more than 50% of new STREET price, not MSRP. Pay attention that MSRP is Manufacturer's SUGGESTED Retail Price. That number has all kinds of movement for middle men, wholesalers, and retailers. When the product is new, the price at the retailer is the price that is likely what will make the retailer a reasonable profit margin based on how long he feels he will sit on the item before it sells. In recent years manufacturers have put large minimum orders on retailers making their prices rise to cover the excess inventory they are forced to bear if they wish to market a given product. Manufacturers are moving to these restrictions to assure they recover the manufacturing costs associated with a given product. This has resulted in the blow out sales we see when a retailer has gotten all the profit he believes he is going to make on that product, and now he is selling to recover his actual cost (or very near) and get the inventory out of his possession and off his financial books.
I have no problem with people making a profit on their products. I have a problem with profiteering and gouging, and that is where I see the used market heading.
My opinion for what ever that is worth.
You just have to face the reality folks. The era of Large Scale Boom is over. It is a miracle that there are still some plastic models produced for the European market. Other than that we should pray for Live Steam to survive for a few more years. Better learn some skills, scratchbuilding is fun. Best wishes from Indoors, Zubi
Quote from: armorsmith on May 23, 2020, 11:20:46 AM
Fred, therein lies the rub for many of the senior modelers. I, like many, do not get on Facebook. Aside of the fact that my employer HIGHLY RECOMMENDS us NOT open our security to a medium that has many time displayed it's inability or lack of desire to secure folks PII.
. . . .
Sorry to offend the Facebook foamers, but that is my thoughts. By the way, it would have been nice if you included a means to find this Facebook provider for those who wish to pursue that avenue.
You really were on a roll that day. Completely ignored the other part of my statement:
"There is a gentleman in MA making replacement gears in Delrin for the most popular/problematic gearboxes.
His email is girotek@rcn.com and he is quite active on Facebook."
Quote from: armorsmith on May 31, 2020, 12:57:45 PM
I have heard way too many horror stories about eBay sellers to trust eBay listings. I generally don't troll eBay, but trolled the On30 listings last evening. Almost every listing I looked into said almost nothing in print about the item with the statement "photos are part of the item description". Some were stock photos taken from manufacturer's web sites. How do I know that the photos of the item are photos of the item I am bidding on? Do I trust seller ratings? HELL NO!! The rating system is a sham. I am of the mind set that if I cannot inspect the item before purchase, I don't need it. Years ago eBay was a good place to do business. eBay has become far to commercialized and protects the sellers (who pay the eBay fees) to the extent buyers are left relatively on their own. Yes there is a system, but I don't have weeks or months for my money to be tied up in eBay investigations.
Personally I don't think I'd go as far to say that eBay protects the sellers, as just from my experience buyers seem to have more leverage. I've been selling on eBay since 2008 and within the last 6-7 years or so, I've watched selling on the site become more and more of hassle than it's worth. Like I've told a few people, if eBay wasn't my only source of extra income and method of getting rid of items I have, I honestly wouldn't bother with it. At the same time though, I'm not going to just donate thousands of dollars worth of models to Goodwill.
There are many cases where I've watched buyers take advantage of the system when it comes to items I have sold. I had a case last year where an item got delayed at a sort facility, and the buyer opened up a case because they hadn't received it. Even though I provided tracking information to show the item was arriving late, eBay still went ahead and refunded the buyer and closed the case. They're reasoning behind it was that I did not provide sufficient tracking. The item did get delivered and I did manage to get it back, but I had to message the buyer several times stating that I had tracking information that showed the package being delivered right to their doorstep. This isn't the only time this has happened...
Another issue I had years back was I mixed up shipping labels with 2 orders. Order A was worth $40 and Order B was worth $175. Buyer B received Order A, and when I found this out I contacted Buyer A and asked them to just reject the box (which was still in transit) and send it back to me. Rather than doing what I said, Buyer A opened the box because they stated "I needed to make sure it was the wrong item." When I received the box back, several items were missing, some were damaged, and more packing material had been added to the box. I told Buyer A I wasn't going to refund their money because of this, but eBay forcefully refunded them stating that it wasn't their fault the items were missing and that someone in the Postal Service probably opened the box. In the end I had to refund Buyer B their money as well and I never got the item back from them either. Regardless, I'm partially to blame for that $200+ loss simply because I was the one who mislabeled the boxes...
Lastly and most recent, just last week I had a buyer leave negative feedback because she bought an item from me and her kid managed to break the thing while making a movie. I don't see where I'm held responsible for that, but the real issue is the buyers feedback history. Looking through their profile (Feedback score of 70) on feedback left for others, they have only left 1 feedback ever which was the negative feedback they left for me. I don't know where eBay stands on buyers who only leave negative feedback, but I've seen several cases out there of buyers who do such things. Whether this is just to gain something from eBay or just troll sellers, I don't know. Sellers on the other hand can't leave negative feedback because eBay say's it will cause buyers to lose faith in the site.
Now I'll admit in the past I have been on the buying end where I received a model that was damaged, and rather than the seller just giving me a partial refund to buy replacement parts, eBay stepped in and gave me a full refund and let me keep the item on top of everything. While some may look at this and say I made out in the deal, I don't enjoy benefitting in the hobby of model railroading at cost of others. For that reason, I just gave the model to charity rather than having to look at it everyday...
Now I am no way trying to call anyone out on their opinions of eBay, I'm just stating my thoughts based on what I've seen through my own experience with the site. At the end of the day, it all comes down to the fact that there are a lot of people out there who want something for nothing and are willing to go out of their way to screw over anyone they can. I feel the big issue with eBay is you don't know who your buying from or selling to. When you do business with someone face-to-face, you can see just what kind of person they are and overall it makes for a better buying experience.
-Rusty
Certainly ebay is not end all, but there are just very few rr swap meets anywhere.
Considering at least two LS makers just gave up. This is where things are at.
Hi Chastity,
Which are the two companies who just gave up??? I must have missed the announcements since I have not seen any recently.
Thanks,
Bill
Bill, I believe she is referring to Hartland Locomotive Works and MTH.
Hartland has a notice on their web site that due to conditions they are suspending production indefinitely. Suspending does not indicate to me they have tossed in the towel. Hartland is a sub business of a large injection molding company as I understand it, and I believe that they are realigning efforts to maintain the bigger business so that in the future when conditions improve they can bring back the H-L-W line.
MTH is another story. The owner is retiring. I have no doubt that market conditions have had a strong bearing on that decision, but again this is not just quitting. MTH will be taking and filling orders through sometime in 2021. Plenty of advance notice, and I understand that there is some negotiation for the continuation of some of the product line already.
I do wish that if folks are going to make announcements, they would make a complete announcement. You can read the Hartland announcement on their web site, and I understand there is a nice write up on the MTH Facebook page (I don't have access to Facebook).
Hey thanks for the news, I must be out of it, as I missed both announcements. Then again I am not on facebook either. Still in all it is not overall good news, and not a good sign for O scalers and our scale. Seems like everything is now focused on HO and N scale. Ebay prices for many G scale items are surging, I am out of the buying mode, and just cannot afford what is on offer, worse shipping cost have gone out of sight as well. Like you maybe they will come back in some form.
Thanks again for the detailed post!
All the best,
Bill
I just did not want to mention names on the Bachmann site.
Technically Bachmann is not out of 1:20.3 but I think we pretty much know it is likely not coming back.
Yes HLW is suspended but pretty much that do not look for new production anytime soon.
MTH has a chance of reorganizing but I would suspect the LS offerings will not be there. Tinplate repros gone as well and they will concentrate most likely on O scale.
Let us face it, there are not as many people doing model trains. That combined now with economy people start looking elsewhere to spend if theybhave it.
From what I see being offered, and some of the most activity in LS seems to now be live steam.
That being said as older Bachmann 1:20.3 disappears what does show up is commanding some good prices.
Virtually the last four K-27s all used have gone for around a thousand US dollars.
Collectors, parts engines or something else?
The newer generation Moguls, Climaxes, C-19s, and new Big Hauler 4-6-0s coming out soon, are the models we'll want to invest in, because they're built with good quality construction for a reason. They were built to last, and if properly maintained, can probably last for decades. Yes the paint will wear off, but we can always find someone whose skillful enough to touch up the paint with the right colors, or weather them as far as cosmetics go, but mechanically, they should last us a long time without needing parts replaced as long as their maintained right.
Phoenix Sound and Tsunami I believe will also be around for a while because they'll always be demand for sound units, but if you're looking for newer model trains from Bachmann to get, best it be the newer generation Climaxes, C-19s, 2-6-0s, and 4-6-0s since they're probably are gonna be the ones that last a long time as parts become more scarce.
Oddly enough, the German Elephant sells large overpriced locos as fast as they can produce them.
Perhaps The Bach-Man should produce European models as well.
Wait, I've made this suggestion before.
Models of European/English/Australian/South African/Indian locos seem to sell well even at ridiculous prices.
Bach Man,
You have been very quiet lately. Hope you are well. I watched with much anticipation the TrainWorld NMRA Show announcements.
I know MANY will be extremely excited about the release of the Dash 9 Locomotive. However, it was not the announcement I expected. Sure was waiting for updated info on the release of the long ago announced 4-6-0 upgrade. I know there is also a Thomas diesel announced on Facebook that was not in the TrainWorld show, so maybe you can give us some inside info regarding the 4-6-0 Rio Grande schemes.
Happy Rails To You,
Ted
Teaser vid of a pre-production sampler, B'mann D'9 (in NS paint) ? ;
https://www.facebook.com/Bachmanntrains/videos/588363408769356/UzpfSTE4MjY1ODI1NTc2MDoxMDE1ODM1NDU5NzY2MDc2MQ/?ref=tahoe
doug c
Since Bachmann is going to start selling std gauge trains in from the Aristo molds, any chance they will start producing the Aristo NG (Delton) models? C-16 would be really cool
Quote from: LarryD on July 19, 2020, 10:06:18 PM
Since Bachmann is going to start selling std gauge trains in from the Aristo molds, any chance they will start producing the Aristo NG (Delton) models? C-16 would be really cool
That C-16 is 1/24th scale. There are lots and lots of them available on the secondhand market, so I doubt it will be high on the list.