Are all the logging and mining engines that you see on various layouts only available in larger scales then HO?
The "logging" 2-6-2 and 2-8-2 catalog engines of the early 20's holler to be offered as contemporary Bachmann HO Spectrum style models. Years ago they were in brass but as we know, with only a few exceptions brass models were not paragons of smooth operation like today's engines are.
"Logging and Mining" engines covers a pretty broad range of models. Graywolf, it would help in queries like this one if you could flesh out your question a little bit, as we can't read your mind or know what you are seeking.
That being said, there have been a lot of HO scale logging and mining locomotive models produced in both brass and plastic through the years. Off the top of my head the plastic models I can come up with include Bachmann's 3-truck Shay, 2-truck Climax, and 3-truck Climax; Model Die Casting/Roundhouse also made 2- and 3- truck Shays and Class A Climax locomotives; I think it was AHM that made 2- and 3- truck Heislers, Rivarossi later released updated and improved versions; and Mantua made 2-6-6-2 "Loggers" in two types of saddle tank and a tender equipped versions. I don't think any of these are available new now, and several have been out of production for many years, but they are readily available through all the various used markets.
In addition to the above list there are a number of smaller plastic steam locomotives that could readily be found on logging railroads. Bachmann and Mantua both made smaller 2-6-2 prairies that could be reasonable stand ins, the Bachmann is still available but the Mantua has been out of production for many decades. MDC/Roundhouse "old time" 2-6-0 and 2-8-0 models are both good starting points for logging locomotives, and Athearn has released upgraded versions of these in their Roundhouse line. Ten wheelers were rare but not unheard of on logging railroads, and Bachmann's 4-6-0 would be a good starting point.
Logging and mining steam have been incredibly popular in brass. There have been many, many brass models of Shays, Hieslers, Climaxes, and Willamettes in many shapes and sizes produced. Some of the logging rod locomotives produced in brass include 2-6-2T and 2-8-2Ts; four or five versions of 70-ton logging mikados; three 2-6-2 prairies; several variations of the 2-4-4-2, 2-6-6-2 and 2-6-6-2T logging mallets; plus some smaller locomotives like 0-8-0T, 0-4-4-0T, and a Vulcan Duplex. As in plastic there are also a fairly large number of other small brass steamers that can be easily adapted for logging railroad service. Unfortunately, most of these models date from the 1960s/1970s, can be expensive to purchase, and generally require motor replacement and substantial drive train upgrades if they are to be operated today.
I'll echo what Trainman203 said, that Baldwin 2-6-2 and 2-8-2 logging specific prototypes would be most welcome additions to Bachmann's line. As noted above, there have been three logging specific prairies produced in brass, the generic "Prairie King", Polson/Rayonier #45, and the Oregon-American #105. The "Prairie King" is closest to the earliest versions of the Baldwin logging prairie from the late 1800s/early 1900s, while both of the others are models of essentially one-off prototypes that had relatively few to no others like them. I'd love to see a "modern" Baldwin prairie (middle 1920s), along the lines of the Dolbeer & Carson 3 or McCloud River #20/#21. As for the Mikados, the brass versions produced have been a late 1890s Brooks mikado, two versions of the Polson/Rayonier #70, Brooks-Scanlon/Georgia Pacific #5, and the Owen Oregon/Medford Corp/California Western #3/#45. All of these are in the 70-or so ton weight class, which were on the smaller end of the Baldwin logging mikado. I'd love to see a model of a Baldwin 90-ton logging mikado, but I've pretty much given up that it will happen.
Jeff Moore
Elko, NV
Pole road locos.
https://www.mendorailhistory.org/1_railroads/pole_roads.htm
Rich
Thanks All for the education. It seems there is little demand or we would see some offerings.
For one thing, logging locos run maybe ten miles per hour. They did not want to dump those log loads.
My rebuilt MDC Climax with sound runs at eight MPH and sounds a lot faster. The Climax type MDC modeled was a two cylinder geared down steam engine.
Rich
Brass:
Shay (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50152001783_0eec291d56_k.jpg)
One of my favorites, a vertical boiler Climax.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50152554481_13ef7a0267_k.jpg)
...and let's not forget the obscure, Vulcan duplex.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50152788207_237e9d0e71_k.jpg)
I've got another half dozen or so brass loggers, but as TM203 said, they are sluggish runners.
Ken
Very nice Ken, thanks for the photos.
Oh man.....that Vulcan :o
Sid
This page may be of interest here, even if rather specialized. It does include notes about models of logging Mallets made over the years in HO scale, including some that were mass produced by Mantua.
http://loggingmallets.railfan.net/
I'm no logging road expert, even though I've spent a lot of my adult life in Mississippi, a very unknown and never-modeled logging/lumber export locale compared to the familiar Pacific Northwest. There were dozens of logging railroad operations here, and they all shared a couple of things- terrible track and very slow engines because the track was so terrible. I always get a laugh out of "logging" layouts with ballasted very heavy mainline type track. Maybe it existed somewhere but I would think heavy duty track would have been the exception. One thing I know that happened here was lumber company trains, with company road locomotives , crews , and cabooses being run over a Class 1 host railroad from the cut site to the lumber mill, in once case 50 miles away I'm told. The logs came out of the woods on jackleg cars over constantly relocated jackleg track very slowly pulled by geared steam engines down to a regular railroad, where they were then loaded onto more roadworthy cars for the possibly rather long trip to the sawmill, often a much more massive operation than commonly thought. This is where regular "rod" engines, lettered for a lumber company, can be utilized on a layout.
I love the way all the lumber industry railroad stuff looked...... but if you ever spent an August day down in Mississippi deep in the woods doing any kind of work ..... you really would not want to have been a logger down here back in those days.🥵🥵🦟🕷🐜
The Mantua 2-6-6-2 locos are a bit oversize for HO, but make a good starting point for an 'S' scale narrowgauge loco.
Len
So would the very oversized "HO scale" Sierra 4-6-0 No. 3 that Tyco made way back, for a lumber company road engine or mill switcher.
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_JxNE7QxVZbQ/SFweEV44pHI/AAAAAAAAAHI/Z7ac6CWAf6M/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/OO+004.JPG
Yes, I have that loco and it is oversize but nice. I re-geared it and put a can motor with flywheel in it many years ago. The same gear setup used in MDC, Roundhouse locos. What a sweet runner it was.
Rich
Wasn't the late Harold Minky doing narrow-gauge S scale using HO track, wheels, and engine mechanisms? What was that called? Sn-something. Maybe close to a prototype 42" gauge? Unusual but not unheard of. Seems like the Tyco 4-6-0 would have been almost perfect for that right out of the box. He often used small HO steam engines but redetailed them with S scale cabs and fittings if I recall.
I believe Harold Minky was doing Sn3 in 1:55 scale, which can operate on HO track. Which is one of the reason the Mantua 2-6-6-2 makes a good starting point for an Sn3 locomotive. Sn3 in 1:64 scale has a narrower track gauge, so track would pretty much have to be hand laid.
Len
Someone with better math skills tell me. At true 1/64 scale, how many scale inches wide is HO track? I believe it to be 40" but my math skills dried up years ago.
At 1/64 scale the track gauge would be 14.3 mm or 0.5629921 in.
1/64 = 0.015625, so 0.5629921"/0.015625 = 36.0314944", call it 36" for practical purposes.
And there's not a lot of that size track available commercially.
Standard gauge HO track, 16,5mm (0.649606299213 in.) gauge. In 1/64 scale would be 0.649606299213"/0.015625 = 41.574803149632" or pretty close to 42".
Len
At some point in time I saw photos of Shays going to a 42" gauge railroad, maybe down in South America.
I'd rather model a 42" gauge line than a 30" gauge one. I love the On30 stuff the Bach Man has offered over the years but those wide engines on that narrow little 30" gauge track always made me think of a circus bear riding a bicycle.
I disagree on the demand part, the lumber industry always has been a popular model subject, and Bachmann in particular hasn't seemed to have many problems selling their geared steam locomotives when they make them available. And unless someone has them unreasonably priced brass and plastic logging locomotives have no trouble selling on the auction sites.
In order to understand geared steam locomotives one really has to understand the logging industry and how it operated, which has been alluded to a time or two on this thread. Sawmilling had mostly been a local industry until the early 1800s, when lumber demands shot up as cities started expanding. The development of the railroad network really allowed for the economical transport of lumber long distances, and sawmill sizes progressively grew to meet demand. The problem this creates is that a sawmill of any size will very shortly cut through all the immediately available timber, which means that logs either have to be hauled over ever increasing distances or the sawmill has to frequently move. Relocating sawmills became increasingly difficult as they transitioned into large industrial facilities, and so the industry had to develop ways to economically move logs over ever increasing distances. It's no coincidence that the cradle of the modern sawmill industry lay in the Great Lakes region, as water provided the best way of moving logs, either floating across lakes or in the great "log drives" down rivers. This only works for as long as the woods and the mill are on contiguous waterways. Animals- usually oxen or horses- provided the next best way to move logs, but log size and friction limited the length of such moves, which led to greased skidways and then primitive animal powered tramways, and then in 1876 a southern Michigan logger built what is generally credited to be the first logging railroad.
Logging railroads faced several problems. Railroads always have been incredibly expensive to build, equip, and maintain, and generally the costs associated with logging railroads had to be charged as part of an operation's logging expense and would have to be recaptured with lumber sales as logging railroads rarely produced any other revenues for their owners. This translated into some of the cheapest railroads an operation could get away with building- rudimentary at best engineering, ties laid directly on the ground, little to no ballast, a minimum of earthwork or grading, and light rail. This in turn limited the size and weight of equipment operating on these roads, and most mainline equipment could not tolerate lightly built trackwork or steep grades found on most logging railroads. Ephraim Shay solved these problems when he invented the locomotive that would be named after him, and its success prompted others to invent the Climax and Heisler and a few other less successful variations. The geared engines essentially operated in the equivalent of a car's first gear all the time, and the short wheelbases of the powered trucks made them adept at negotiating the roughly built trackage. These were the considerations at play that dictated speeds, not keeping the logs on the cars as stated. Logging railroads expected logs to roll off cars, and almost every operation would run a special train usually towards the end of each season to pick up all the logs that prematurely rolled off the cars along the line. Most log flats had some sort of cheese block to prevent logs from rolling off cars, and chained log loads to the cars as well. By the later years log bunks became standard equipment on almost all log cars.
However, logging railroads tended to grow along with the industry, and by the early 1900s the ever increasing distances between the woods and the mills forced logging railroads to develop well built heavy use mainlines to bridge that distance. Geared steam locomotives were simply way too slow to be used on those operations, and most larger railroads tended to start using them only on the temporary spur line trackage built into the woods while the 60- to 90- ton 2-8-0s, 2-6-2s. and 2-8-2s would handle the mainline hauls. A number of the larger operations simply got rid of their geared steam altogether and found it cheaper to build the logging spurs to a high enough standard to support the lighter rod locomotives.
(http://www.mccloudriverrailroad.com/LocomotiveRoster/MR24_MovingDay_1934.jpg)
(http://www.mccloudriverrailroad.com/LocomotiveRoster/MR24_Whitehorse_Circa34.jpg)
(http://www.mccloudriverrailroad.com/LocomotiveRoster/MR21_WhiteHorsearea.jpg)
Hopefully the images come through okay.
Trucks largely replaced spur line logging starting in the late 1930s, with the conversion complete essentially by the late 1950s. Of course, most operations found it cheaper just to keep the logs on the trucks once there for the entire haul to the mill, and by the late 1950s/early 1960s the only logging railroads really left were a few mainline hauls where enough timber existed in one place to keep the railroad cost competitive with trucks and publicly financed highways.
(http://www.trainweb.org/highdesertrails/oce/WTCXBaldwins_5small.jpg)
When it comes to logging modeling, the most popular form seems to be the earlier era, with a geared steam locomotive or two hauling a few carloads of logs to a mill so small that its production would have taken many days to fill a standard gauge boxcar and would have never been able to afford a logging railroad in the first place, but hey, they look cool in model form.
Lastly, while most Shays and geared steam were built to either standard of 36" gauge, there were some built to oddball gauges, a few for domestic use and some for export. Perhaps one of the more unusual gauges were four two-truck Heislers built to 45-1/4" gauge, used on the Northern Redwood Lumber Company logging railroad out of North Fork (later Korbel), California, on the northwest coast in the redwoods. m All were later rebuilt to standard gauge.
I hope this helps.
Jeff Moore
Elko, NV
That is a fine summation, well done.
Found this a few year5s ago. Used in Maine I believe. Google the loco for more info.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFxXqr-6Sdc
Rich
That is neat with the steerer and the whistle blower up front.
Power steering. Driver puts all his power into steering.
Rich
Go to the video on Youtube that Rich sent and then continue on to a video that shows a parade of steam vehicles. Sorry I just checked and it seems the videos on Youtube don't repeat the same pattern I saw.
You are correct You Tube play with the Videos. Owned by Google I think.
Rich
Hi Guy's
Newbie here, thought you might like a small video of a couple of my HO Logging Locos.
Mantua 2-6-6-2 (MRC decoder)
Rivarossi Heisler (ESU decoder)
Regards
Gary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2Sgk8RQowE