Hi All,
Looking to start with a HO set feature sound and DCC control, but I have a few questions.
What Bachmann HO starter sets feature sound/DCC locomotives? It's not easily determined. I see some sets say DCC enabled, but no sound. Does that mean I can add sound to the locomotive? Also, is DCC an industry standard? Would I need a DCC controller, and do any starter sets come with that? Appreciate any input. There is a lot of questions to start and I realize it is a long process, but I don't want to buy uneducated.
Thanks!
DCC ready means that it does not have a DCC decoder and speaker but has wiring "ready" to install them. DCC equipped means that the DCC system is already in the locomotive.
Direct command control is a relatively new invention in the last 20 years or so, in model railroading. It is a universe apart from the old transformers and power packs that used to run train sets. The operation of the train is not controlled by variation of the voltage of the track, but rather variation of the voltage within the locomotive via coded (hence " decoder") electronic commands, sent through the rails to the engine. Other coded messages sent to the engine control sounds At one time some decoders only controlled the train speed, with no provision for sound, but I believe those days are past. Since you are individually. controlling locomotives, you can run several on the same track at one time completely independently of the other.
The only DCC thing resembling a " controller", ie a single operating module, that I know of is the Bachmann EZ command, which also is the simplest to for a beginner. Do not try to run DCC equipped trains with an old toy train transformer. I will destroy the decoder.
DCC is a wonderful thing and if you are just getting started with Model Railroading , I'd advise that you start with it at the beginning instead of thinking you'll save money now and upgrade later. When I first got DCC, the difference in the fun quotient was astronomical, unbelievable.
Hi Nate,
I'll answer your questions one by one:
What Bachmann HO starter sets feature sound/DCC locomotives?We currently offer two DCC Sound Value equipped HO starter sets:
- 00825 Echo Valley Express (https://shop.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=258_269_620&products_id=4586)
- 00826 Thunder Chief (https://shop.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=258_269_620&products_id=4587)
We also offered the Limited Edition 00827 Transcontinental (https://shop.bachmanntrains.com/images/HO_Scale/00827.jpg) a few years ago.
I see some sets say DCC enabled, but no sound. Does that mean I can add sound to the locomotive?Generally, the answer is "yes", but it depends on the specific locomotive. You will need a sound-equipped DCC decoder and a speaker. Most of our newer locomotives that are not already sound-equipped will have a space and holes in the chassis for a speaker, and may even come with a speaker pre-installed. Others may not have a specific space for a speaker, but you can still install it with some modification to the body and/or chassis. We recommend to contact the decoder manufacturer to get their specific advice on installations.
Also, is DCC an industry standard?Yes, DCC was developed by the National Model Railroad Association and has been adopted as an industry standard. There are many different DCC decoders and systems available, but as long as they are NMRA compliant, they all interface with each other. For example, you can control Bachmann DCC locomotives with any DCC control system, and you can control non-Bachmann locomotives using the Bachmann E-Z Command system. You can learn more about DCC and how it works on the DCC Wiki. (https://dccwiki.com/Introduction_to_DCC)
Would I need a DCC controller, and do any starter sets come with that?All of our DCC Sound Value sets, as well as the 00501 Digital Commander (https://shop.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=258_269_271&products_id=1814) (which does not have sound) include the E-Z Command or E-Z Command Plus DCC controller. DCC locomotives can be controlled with a standard DC controller, but you will not have access or control of all the DCC functions (for example, in a sound equipped locomotive, the whistle/horn and bell will play automatically based on speed control.)
Let us know if you have any more questions, and have fun!
Speaking of the old Transcontinental... any chance of that making it back onto the catalog...? ;D
Hi NerdlyNate;
Welcome to a great hobby... best to learn it one step at a time... learn something new every day and build a solid foundation of knowledge. Trainman and Yard Master have covered DCC (digital) basics and just touched on DC (analog) systems. You'll need to understand both and when locos are interchangeable. DCC locos will run on DC too... but need to have DC turned "on" in DCC programing. [Most DCC locos come with DC ops already turned "on"]
Visit NMRA to learn DCC standards. Understand that DC locos that are "DCC Ready" come in two flavors... [1] 'plug and play' simply plug a decoder into a socket for 8Pin, 21Pin, 18NextPin, etc or [2] requires mini (micro) soldering the decoder and sound speaker. You have to read the loco instructions to understand which DCC Ready the mfr means... plug-in or soldering. Also industry standard is that NIB DCC locos come with a DCC Loco "address" of "3".
Learn what DCC "Functions" are (lights, sounds like bell and horns, etc) and that EZ Command DCC controller will handle up to 9 DCC locos. It will play sounds like Bell and Horn, turn lights and sound on/off, etc. The EZ Command does not program DCC locos, like higher level DCC Controllers do. But, it allows you to change DCC Loco "address" to a number 1-9. Three years ago, I was where you are now... it's a fun trip into running DCC...
Enjoy it and keep smiling.
" Do not try to run DCC equipped trains with an old toy train transformer. I will destroy the decoder."
If you are talking about the AC transformers used to operate Lionel, Marx, American Flyer and other O/O27 trains, this is true.
It is not true for DC output power packs typically used to operate HO and N trains. As long as the decoder is set for 'dual mode', they will operate on DC fine. The only problem is the decoder will 'eat' roughly 5 volts of track power before the motor starts turning over. So the throttle has to be turned higher than you'd expect compared to a straight DC only locomotive. If the decoder is not set for 'dual mode', it will just sit there regardless of the DC voltage on the track.
Len
Thanks all, much appreciated!
One thing you'll find is that model railroaders are generally a helpful lot. This is a big hobby, and it is impossible to know everything, so we all have our areas we specialize in. By participating in this forum, you have access to all of our various experiences. It's a great resource to have at your fingertips.
The road you take will depend on what you want out of the hobby. It can be a little intimidating at first, but you'll soon find out the parts of the hobby you enjoy, and what you don't particularly like. Don't hesitate to ask here if you have questions, and you will have many. We're here to help if we can.
Quick question, foam board, is there a "standard" type of 2" foam I should get, or just what the hardware store carries?
I'm planning on a 4x8 plywood base, foam, and laying track to get started.
NerdyNate, the pink or blue foam board, sold by hardware and big box stores as insulation, will work just fine. I've been using it for years. It cuts just fine with a sharp knife and you can use the score and snap method to cut it to size. Hope this helps.
Nate, there are dozens of websites and YouTube videos about how to build a 4 x 8 model railroad table, how to put foam insulation on it, etc. And a lot more about beginning with model railroading in general. I wish all that had been around when I started. It will help you avoid a lot of mistakes that the rest of us made in the past. Just start searching on YouTube. You'll be astounded at how much stuff there is there. Do be advised, though, there are often several different ways to do a particular task, and a different video and opinion 😱😂 for each one. Just spend a few evenings exploring those.
If it were me, and I was just getting started today, I'd get one of those two train sets that the Bach Man mentioned. Steam or diesel, your choice. And get a few more freight cars. I'd stick with buying new ones at the moment, there's always hundreds of them on eBay but they are all pigs in a poke with all kinds of issues that you don't know about yet. When you eventually do start wanting those cars, there's a bunch of people here to help you, myself, Jeffrey Ward, Terry Tonges and other regulars, who are here all the time.
Those two train sets come with an oval of the Bach Man's EZ track. There are more various pieces available to expand your layout beyond the oval that comes with the set. And there are books with track plans using that track along with lists of what pieces you need. I used that track on my mainline when I first built my present layout 17 years ago. It's still there, although painted and covered in ballast now, and it's working fine. I did find that it did not fit well with the desired geometry of my yards and sidings, so I used other brands of track there.
Good luck and please report back as you progress.
One last thing. Paint that insulation board the minute you get it down on the table. All the books recommend "earth colored latex paint." That's a hard thing to find. One of the books recommended Pittsburgh "tobacco," although soil colors vary widely by region. My friend's paint store was able to match that color so I've got a gallon of it and I've been putting it down on a little second layout that I'm building at the other house.
Quote from: trainman203 on March 01, 2023, 10:05:57 AMAll the books recommend "earth colored latex paint." That's a hard thing to find.
If you have a Home Depot in your area you can get just about any 'earth' color you can think of, except they don't call any of them 'earth' color. They have names like "bison brown", "Canyon View", etc. If you go to their web site and search for Behr Paint, then select Brown/Tan familiy over on the left, you'll be able to see what they have. And you can get roughly 1/2 pint sample bottles of the colors to try out and see what works best in your lighting.
Len
The problem with " earth" color paint is not the availability of colors, it's the ability of my eye to see how "earthy" it really is. I must've tried four different times getting a sample pint but once I put on the layout, it looked like anything but earth. That's why I finally gave up and went with the Pittsburgh color from the book. It doesn't look anything like earth in my area, but it looks good in the scenery in that particular book. It's going to be really underlayment more than anything else, to keep the pink or blue from showing through your scenery that you'll be putting on later.
I like the pink board the best. Everyone has their preferences. I've seen folks talk about green board but we don't have that around here where I live. When I first started, I used the 1" blue board and didn't care for that. Trying to cut it would break little hunks off.
I usually use small paring knives like these. I have used a variety of knives and hobby saws and meat carvers in the past. I've found that the thin blade of a paring knife makes a nice cut.
(https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/333559362_2584371601703141_7043247155697175832_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p280x280&_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=XQD4qVbUKxIAX9ARJ2g&_nc_oc=AQn42E8j-ohMnJfu1Pa7wdm631toWn3Xvo518APRU1qNIft8qie-P8odGl9Hv0CCYcpIdfQOCsZ53LBXWSPoCTpw&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AfADD5n2GEORMis2ukpN60JDeoTILckIL7-IlAaKel18YQ&oe=64057A1A)
As far as base color, look at a lot of other layouts on the net and see what appeals to you. My first one, I tried kind of a dark tan and it was ok. Then I went with a dark evergreen paint and I liked that. Now, I just have it all white for snow.
I never got around to doing much scenicking because I kept changing my mind on what I wanted. Just when I thought I had everything decided, the On30 bug bit so I had to change again. I did that for a while and went back to HO.
Now, I'm just doing a Christmas themed layout. Every year I was dressing up the other layouts with Christmas stuff so I figured I might as well just do it all Christmas.
I may be in the minority but I don't use foam board at all, except for maybe building up mountains. My track is all laid on white pine dimensional lumber, cut and fit to support the track only. Most of the time I use the hard shell method for scenery, where the plaster cloth is laid over mountain forms made of crumpled newspaper or cardboard strips. I don't skimp on my subroadbed to keep weight down. experience has taught me that sturdy construction is best, and I don;t trust foam board to hold up under a move. You will never regret overbuiding your layout, but you will kick yourself if an underbuilt layout sags and warps causes endless derailments.
Since the OP said he was going to use a foam base and the discussion went that way, I didn't say anything about the non-use of foam either. My layout is only 17 inches wide, and doesn't have much room for any other scenery past the track. Some of my track is Bachmann EZ track, and the rest is mostly Atlas flex track and number six track switches on cork roadbed or cork sheet in the yard. It is, however, 48 feet long, which gives me a nice long run between terminals on either end. The layout itself is three-quarter inch thick 8' long shelf boards, a 1x12 and a 1x6 next to each other except for one narrow run on a 1x6 only. They are adequately supported on metal storage shelf units. I refuse to use power tools after nearly losing a couple of fingers when a skil saw bucked up on me a while back, and this layout has not one saw cut anywhere on it.
The OP said he's going the 4x8 route, so the 2" foam on top of the plywood makes sense if he want's an easy way to make rivers and gullies. It's a lot easier to carve the foam than to saw up the plywood table top and drop sections to create rivers. And the foam pieces removed to create the rivers and be flipped over and used to create small hills to break up the view a bit.
Len
Here's something the OP Might be interested in, to make a 4 x 8 layout appear larger.
https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/199869.aspx
Quote from: trainman203 on March 04, 2023, 09:03:59 AMHere's something the OP Might be interested in, to make a 4 x 8 layout appear larger.
https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/199869.aspx
The only drawback to the scenic divider idea is that it effectively increases the space a layout needs. You can't put the layout back in a corner of the room with a divider because you wouldn't have access to anything behind the divider. If you plan to have a aisleway on at least three sides of the layout, a divider will work well. If, like me, you don't have room for the aisleway having a backdrop along the rear of the layout, and designing it so that all switches are within arm's reach of the access you DO have will accomplish much the same thing.
A 4x8 layout with a scenic divider needs access on all 4 sides to work well. But... a 4x8 all the way up to the walls in room corner... can you really reach across to re-rail something? Or solder a bad rail joiner? Or even get the scenery done?
The last time I had a 4x8 layout, I was 15 years old, and skinny enough to get around to the back through the 9 or 12 inch space to the wall, whatever it was, it wasn't much that's for sure. I ended up cutting that board into two 2x8's and making an L out of them, creating the first Midland Western... essentially what I have now times two to make a U-shaped layout in two rooms. basically the the same basic track plan as today, just times two today. I've really been building the same layout for 60 years now. My Missouri Pacific branchline narrative has never changed since back then.
Can you put a 4x8 back in the corner and have a workable layout? Yes, model railroaders have done it for generations. As a matter of fact, John Allen's original Gorre & Daohetid was just such a plan, with everything that needed to be accessed on a regular basis within arms reach on only two sides. Most derailments occur at switches, and he kept them all relatively close to the edge.
Building a layout to fit in a corner means some of model railroading's most sacred cows must be sacrificed. For one, in order to have access to the rear of the layout you must either design it using an open grid framework to provide access via an access hatch, or bury the track in a tunnel where you can reach up inside the mountain to retrieve derailed cars. Or you must build strong, sturdy benchwork that will support your weight if you need to crawl up there. Both of those fly in the face of what the current crop of self proclaimed experts are pushing in the model railroad magazines.
My current layout offers a good example of how a corner layout works. I've built a tunnel along one side on one line, with the second line curving around the mountain. Scenery started at the backdrop along the sides against the walls and progressed outward from there. The center of the layout will be an access hatch. The benchwork was designed to provide enough room for me to pop up in the middle of the layout.
Trackwork was painstakingly laid, tested, and all joints soldered before scenery was started to ensure no problems with derailments or loss of power in those hard to reach spots. The only issues I have there are when I haven't run trains in awhile and the track gets dirty. But I am working on a permanent solution for that in the form of a deadrail track cleaning train. It will be powered by rechargeable batteries, and controlled by bluetooth similar to EZ App.
Because I took great care in the construction of the track, and built a sturdy subroadbed as a foundation for it, derailments are nonexistent in the back areas. The worst problems I've had have been in dropping my 20 car test train down the 3% grade on the back track. Trains that heavy must be handled with care lest the sheer weight of the train pop cars off the track. But 20 car trains are not run in regular service. The normal train is between 5 and ten cars. Keeping the speed down and a steady hand on the throttle will get those test trains down the hill in one piece, just the same as the real railroads keep the speed down when descending the heavy mountain grades my railroad represents.
I guess the main thing here is not to be in a hurry to plaster everything over in a rush to get the scenery built before you have the bugs worked out of the track.
I quit listening to the pontifications of the Gods in Milwaukee a very long time ago, so I don't know what they're saying now. Anything you need to know about Model Railroading is on the Internet for free, so who needs them?
I know that a full size layout can be pushed up into a corner, but as you've said, it needs very careful planning and attention to avoid problems.
One of the best and most ingenious solutions I ever saw to accessing far reaches of a deep layout was done by a guy who had a lift out panel in the middle of the layout. He screwed a construction hardhat helmet to the underside of it so that when he had to get through that hole, he'd crawl under the layout, put his head inside the hardhat, and then stand up through the hole, with the lift out sectional on top of his head.
I laugh every time I think about this, but it really is a good idea.
The best way to go if you have your layout in a corner - rollers. I just roll it out to do anything that needs to be done in back. I used a metal bed frame as a base with plywood screwed to it. Then I put the foam on top of that.
(https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/334946210_129733046487100_6062396769331283881_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=etniVDOta-8AX82STaz&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AfBquR5MSRo5SbTgesipKQqklfhaDW2QFA94qGWUpP87sA&oe=640BAAA7)
Pretty low. You must have good knees.
😂😂😂
If it was high the little kids wouldn't be able to see it. I use a rolling stool often.
(https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/133457336_10159075681165522_2131475581623819564_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=0debeb&_nc_ohc=V-fe3fQI0VcAX_lf231&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AfCPcyBO0vK9Wk8sWtRLmqTe1egFrWLn8nixj8e4H9oe4g&oe=642DBF63)
Quote from: Terry Toenges on March 06, 2023, 12:14:38 PMThe best way to go if you have your layout in a corner - rollers. I just roll it out to do anything that needs to be done in back. I used a metal bed frame as a base with plywood screwed to it. Then I put the foam on top of that.
(https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/334946210_129733046487100_6062396769331283881_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=etniVDOta-8AX82STaz&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AfBquR5MSRo5SbTgesipKQqklfhaDW2QFA94qGWUpP87sA&oe=640BAAA7)
Yeah, I forgot to mention mine is on casters too. I forgot about that. I've got so much stuff in the room I have nowhere to roll it to, but it will roll away from the wall if I need it to. Overall layout size is 4.5 X 10, in two sections bolted together to form one solid unit.
That photo is how many of us first started with Trains back in the Jurassic.
I'm not new to modeling but this topic, seemed to have morphed into layout material, so is using foam cutters (hot wire foam cutter) not a sound way to put together a layout?
I used to have one of those some years ago. It worked for me but I didn't like the smell. I just went to knives, saws, files, rasps, sandpaper, graters, wire brushes in various stiffnesses, dry wall tools. Things I can find in the kitchen drawers like paring knives and turkey carvers.
It was mostly about layout surface to start with.
Thanks Trainman!
I did just purchase the Expanded track set and am planning on a 4x8 layout, haven't built the table yet.
Trying to figure out how to connect my switch power for the turnouts since the included red wires don't have a connector that fits into my powered derailer, and since I have the EZ command controller, it only has the one power plug, No terminals. Am I missing something simple here?
thanks!
Quote from: trainman203 on March 01, 2023, 09:54:10 AMNate, there are dozens of websites and YouTube videos about how to build a 4 x 8 model railroad table, how to put foam insulation on it, etc. And a lot more about beginning with model railroading in general. I wish all that had been around when I started. It will help you avoid a lot of mistakes that the rest of us made in the past. Just start searching on YouTube. You'll be astounded at how much stuff there is there. Do be advised, though, there are often several different ways to do a particular task, and a different video and opinion 😱😂 for each one. Just spend a few evenings exploring those.
If it were me, and I was just getting started today, I'd get one of those two train sets that the Bach Man mentioned. Steam or diesel, your choice. And get a few more freight cars. I'd stick with buying new ones at the moment, there's always hundreds of them on eBay but they are all pigs in a poke with all kinds of issues that you don't know about yet. When you eventually do start wanting those cars, there's a bunch of people here to help you, myself, Jeffrey Ward, Terry Tonges and other regulars, who are here all the time.
Those two train sets come with an oval of the Bach Man's EZ track. There are more various pieces available to expand your layout beyond the oval that comes with the set. And there are books with track plans using that track along with lists of what pieces you need. I used that track on my mainline when I first built my present layout 17 years ago. It's still there, although painted and covered in ballast now, and it's working fine. I did find that it did not fit well with the desired geometry of my yards and sidings, so I used other brands of track there.
Good luck and please report back as you progress.
I'm not much help because I have never used powered track switch machines on any Railroad I've ever had. I've always held the opinion that manual track switches let you be the switchman.
Does DCC require more than one power/Command Plus to terminal connection?
At its most basic on the smallest layouts, DCC requires only two wires from the power source such as the EZ command, one for reach rail. I'm no electrician, but since DCC supplies around 14 V AC to the track, one wire might be called hot and the other neutral, but someone more knowledgeable please correct me on that.
Larger layouts can require more refinements of power distribution, please see books on DCC for those.
It has been a very long time since I ran a layout using EZ command. Remote control track switches have power requirements not related to actual track power. I do not recall if the EZ command has separate outputs for such accessorys. Someone please elaborate on this.
EZ-Command does not have any accessory power outputs. For remote control switches, a 14-16V AC or DC "wall-wart", rated at least 1 amp, power supply will work.
Len
So after purchasing the Bachmann 45 piece track expansion, I'm not having any success operating the 4 turnouts that came with it. I'm powering the switch from the power derailer track that I use to connect the EZ command controller, and I know it has voltage to it. The expansion pack came with an additional derailer/power piece. When I operate the switch for the turnout, I get no movement, just a quiet buzzing sound from the turnout. I'm at a loss here. Calls/emails to Bachmann have not resolved the issue. It seems like you can only get info on returns or links to online documentation, but no real "how do I" type assistance.
Quote from: trainman203 on April 15, 2023, 10:22:02 AMIt has been a very long time since I ran a layout using EZ command. Remote control track switches have power requirements not related to actual track power. I do not recall if the EZ command has separate outputs for such accessorys. Someone please elaborate on this.
You cannot power the switches from the EZ command control.
Like Len said, you need separate power supply. as in a (wall wart)
Willis.
Quote from: NerdlyNate on April 18, 2023, 02:47:59 PMSo after purchasing the Bachmann 45 piece track expansion, I'm not having any success operating the 4 turnouts that came with it. I'm powering the switch from the power derailer track that I use to connect the EZ command controller, and I know it has voltage to it. The expansion pack came with an additional derailer/power piece. When I operate the switch for the turnout, I get no movement, just a quiet buzzing sound from the turnout. I'm at a loss here. Calls/emails to Bachmann have not resolved the issue. It seems like you can only get info on returns or links to online documentation, but no real "how do I" type assistance.
This question has been answered on this forum many times. I recently answered it in another thread.