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Discussion Boards => Large => Topic started by: tommygunner on January 17, 2008, 07:55:38 PM



Title: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: tommygunner on January 17, 2008, 07:55:38 PM
The counterweights on my k27 are wobbly/loose. The screws are tight ,that was the first thing I checked. Is anyone else suffering this malady? Anyone have a cure?


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: calenelson on January 17, 2008, 08:13:16 PM
This is a link to a list of links and you may find your answer there?  I've read elsewhere about this issue, but can't remember where-sorry!

Good Luck
cale


http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/4/postid/5892/view/topic/Default.aspx (http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/4/postid/5892/view/topic/Default.aspx)


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: tommygunner on January 17, 2008, 08:27:38 PM
Thanks for links but this problem was'nt on the list.


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: Tony Walsham on January 17, 2008, 09:01:00 PM
Yesterday Stan Ames said there was nothing wrong with the counterweights.


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: Matthew (OV) on January 18, 2008, 03:36:24 PM
Yesterday Stan Ames said there was nothing wrong with the counterweights.

Interesting.  I know there have been several reported instances of this particular issue, and that a related end-user modification has been developed that modifies the part of the locomotive in question to optomize its performance.  I have requested that that correction be applied to my locomotive, along with some of the other modifications that have been discovered to be helpful while it's having some other work done prior to arriving on the Slate Creek.

I suspect, once the various official channels have been cleared, that the modification will be publicly available.  Until that time, those who want to apply for such a modification, or how to accomplish it themselves, should probably check with the usual sources of such things.

In the event that it's determined that there is actually a problem, I will be ahead of the game, having already chosen to have installed an optional modification that would, coincidentally, fix a problem of the type being described here if indeed it's a problem.

Matthew (OV)


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: tommygunner on January 18, 2008, 05:07:24 PM
Matthew, who is doing your repair on the problem that doesn't exist? I need help fixing my loco that acts like it's unofficailly broken!! You can contact me meeage board if you prefer.


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: Matthew (OV) on January 18, 2008, 06:26:54 PM
Silly.  Nobody can fix something that's not broken.

On the other hand, if you're looking for a good source of aftermarket consumer modifications, Cale has a lot of good information in that link.

Oh, and your e-mail doesn't show up in your profile.

Matthew (OV)


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: Steve Stockham on January 19, 2008, 11:41:26 AM
Funny, there was a gentleman over on one of the LS forums that said he was able to spin the counterweights completely around with his finger(!) As I have purchased one but have sent it off for "aftermarket modification" ;) I am interested in the outcome! (I'm pretty sure that the counterweights are not supposed to do that!)


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: tommygunner on January 20, 2008, 09:49:08 AM
I took a counterweight off yesterday. The screw was tight. There is a lock washer under the screw. IMHO I dont think the tiny screw has enough strength to flatten the lock washer. Maybe a star type washer would work better. There is also a flat washer under the lock washer. The hole in the flat washer is pretty big allowing counterweight to wobble.

Can any one E mail me the name of the  person who is fixing this non existant problem. Thanks   dsfunk2@yahoo.com


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: Bill375 on January 20, 2008, 06:31:52 PM
Hi Guys,  This is my first time responding to a post. I've been quietly reading the forums here for sometime now saying nothing, but now I feel the need to put in my fifty cents. I just recieved my k27 464 a few days ago.  As with most of you guys I was really impressed.  Speachless to say the least. WOW !!!  However, I was a little disappointed when I began running the engine to find some binding in the running gear, but kind of expected it to have a few glitches considering it is a new product.  I took the top styrofoam shipping container that the engine came in to use as a cradle to support the engine upside down.  First thing I noticed was alot of wobble in the counterweights. They were loose, really loose, all eight of them.  Like most of you guys the first thing I tried to do was tighten the counterweight screws only to find them all tight.  Being somewhat mechanically minded, I decided to take the counterweights apart to inspect. With the counterweight off the axle I removed the screw and washers from the center of the counterweight and placed the counterweight back onto the axle.  Upon inspection of the fit between the axle and the counterweight I noticed alot a excessive play between the two.  There is a flat area machined about a quarter way through the axle that mates up with a flat area molded into one side of the counterweight axle hole.  I could twist the counterweight about 1/8 turn in each direction.  Way too much slack in my opinion.  I cut some small brass shims about 1/8" squares to insert in between the two on the flat area to take up the slack.  I had some .005" and .002" brass sheet stock on hand.  The magic thickness for all eight counterweights was .007". With the engine upside down in the cradle I put the small brass shims onto the flat area of the axle ( flat area turned up) held in place with a small screwdriver and pushed the counterweight back onto the axle.  The result was very little or no twisting slack.  With the screw reinserted and tight, the counterweight still appeared to be loose as far as there was some in and out slack ( not twisting ) on the axle.  It looks as if the screw bottoms out on the axle before the screw and washer tighten against the counterweight.  I removed the counterweights and lightly made a couple strokes across each axle end with a file. I probably didn't even remove a .001" from each axle end.  With all counterweights reinstalled brass shims and all,  the axle counterweight joints became rock solid.  Upon fixing the loose counterweight problem it appeared to fix my other problem of the running gear ( siderods ) binding up.  In my opinion the loose counterweights twisting, and all becoming out of quarter, directly contributed to the binding and jerky motion of the engine while running.   When all was done with the engine and put back into service on the rails, it ran like a dream.  I hope that this might be of help to someone.  I was happy with the engine to begin with and even happier now.    Thanks guys, Bill


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: Matthew (OV) on January 20, 2008, 09:23:41 PM
Well, heck.

I was being careful, because, when Dave Goodson told me that he'd done EXACTLY what you're talking about three weeks ago, and then submitted to the folks at Bachmann,  I was thrilled that my engine would be fixed, and not have the problem.  The difficulty was, because he had sent the information to Bachmann, he didn't want to go "public" with it before someone there approved his doing so, or decided how they were going to proceed with releasing and publishing the "fix," and while I wanted to make sure that Tommygunner got the information he needed to fix his locomotive ASAP, I wanted to be respectful of Dave's wishes to not broadcast what he'd figured out before it was OK with Bachmann to do so. 

Another consideration was, that if Bachmann was going to come up with their own solution, like replacement cranks, or something, I didn't want to muddy the water with folks spending the time and effort to cut shims, or pay someone to do the job for them, when the "official" fix was going to be something a lot different, and accessible to all.

If I'd have known that someone would coincidentally come up with the identical procedure to the one I'd signed up for, and put it up on Bachmann's own board, I wouldn't have worried about it, and have just told you what I'd learned, and to call Dave directly -- mine's one of a big pile of K-27's delivered to him over the last couple of weeks for just this kind of improvement, and you could have had what you needed immediately.

Sorry for all the unnecessary cloak and dagger!

Matthew (OV)



Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: bobgrosh on January 20, 2008, 11:42:28 PM
Three weeks!!!!

So, when I left home a week ago, I could have brought my huge stock of brass shim, and something to cut it with.

I'd have fixed the thing by now.

As it is, it will be next weekend. If only our national security was kept this secret.

Maybe I should just send the Kay to Bachmann, VIA FedEx.

If you are a dealer, or an installer, why are you hiding important information from us plain ordinary users?

Why would you even THINK you should keep such information from the end users? Is it the desire of the installers, dealers, reviewers, and other insiders to insure that we users CAN NOT SUCCESSFULLY get our Kay's to run?

Is it your intent to hide the fixes from the users and force us to send our locos to you for "upgrades"?

Sorry, but we are all grown up. We understand about new models. We understand about Bachmann
I have dozens of German locos. I open the boxes in my back yard and they go straight from the box to the rails. They stay there for years, running any time I feel like it. They come with the sound and DCC installed and working. I don't even lubricate them for the first year two. I never take them inside.

Yet, I still buy a few Bachmann locos.

The Kay came without DCC or sound for the same price I paid for a German Mikado with DCC and Sound.

I just finished getting my 3 truck shay with DCC and sound to work, Took me 6 weeks to get it working. Ended up riping out all the Bachmann stuff to install the DCC and a sound card. So it is not like I didn't know it was going too take a while to get the Kay to work.

It sure would be a lot easier if people would just POST the drawing, schematic, pictures, step by step procedure's.

Instead they are going back channel, emails, got to know the password and secret handshake, swear an oath, WHISPER on the Chats but only during certain hours late at night.

 GIVE ME A BREAK!

I like The BIGNESS on 1:20
I like the Grubbiness of geared locos and outside frames.
I like the quaintness of narrow gage.
I like the detail. (But I wish it was sturdier)

Now if Bachmann made locos I could take of of the box and run on my RR, I'd have SEVEN Bachmann 38 ton Shays and ONE German made Forney instead of the other way around.


I'll take the time to coax a few Bachmann locos to life. But, I'm not interested in the Secret societies, Hidden agendas, Mafia connections, and all the rest that seems to go along with prying loose the "SECRETS" to some rater simple, and in my opinion minor things needing to be done to make the Kay a wonderful new addition to my RR.

SO BE WARNED
YOUR SECRETS ARE GOING TO BE LET OUT OF THE BAG.
So, you might as well post what you know now and have bragging rights to being the first to publish.

I got my Kay Friday, was wasted by food poising Saturday. It's now Sunday.
I've found:
solutions for four lockup problems,
how to fix the smoke being sucked down the stack,
corrected three errors on the wiring diagrams,
found out  what causes the short in the headlight circuit,
found out how to get the motor driven axle to float up and down like the rest of the axles,
how to install a Kadee on the front so it will magnetically uncouple and not stick out as far as the Bachmann Knuckle, 
traced out lands of 5 different circuit boards,
found out why the "load-complensated flickering firebox" is not.

AND I'M JUST GETING STARTED
I have three differentt control sysems and a half dozen sound cards I plan to try in the Kay.

Believe me, I won't use "modify or upgrade" when I mean "FIX or REPAIR".
It's a "Bachmann K27", not "some ghost loco".
I don't hide behind emails or require a secret handshake.

Remember, whatever your little click was, it's been infiltrated by REAL users who actually ordered and paid for their locos.

I'll try to be as outspoken and as matter of fact as someone I USED to idolize. Maybe the old TOC will return to us, or maybe he as gone over to the dark side. KeyRice, sometimes it's hard to remember if I'm reading a reply from the Dave or Stanly, have to go back and look at the Avatar to see who is being evasive.

B0B


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: Steve Stockham on January 21, 2008, 08:58:49 AM
Not fair Bob. If you want info from Dave all you have to do is ask him! He has never been one to obfuscate or evade the truth! For over 11 years he has evaluated, analyzed and ultimately devised "fixes" for the myriad of little "problems" that inevitably crop up with new engines! Dave is not an employee of Bachmann!
  Look at it from his perspective: if there's a potential problem that he has found, wouldn't it be better to advise Bachmann of his findings so that their engineers can evaluate his findings and "fix" the problem? Wouldn't blurting out "Hey everybody! Look what I found!!" before Bachmann had a chance to respond be unfair (and unprofessional?) Far from being evasive, Dave has posted over on Large Scale Central what he has found but within his self-imposed constraints. Can you honestly say that you spoke to Dave either on the phone, in the forums or on Chat and he misled you? (Note: I'm only referring to Dave and not to anybody else that have been frequenting the chat rooms and forums and offering technical advice!)
  It has been my experience that Dave has been one of the most forthright, objective and helpful people that I have had the honor to get to know and call "friend." In my opinion, Bachmann is lucky to have someone like Dave doing "Beta testing" (even if after the model has been released!) Give him a call! I'm sure that, after talking with him, you'll agree!

(Note: The views and opinions expressed in this post are exclusively those of myself and do not necessarily reflect those of anybody else.)


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: Matthew (OV) on January 21, 2008, 09:22:04 AM
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is proof that it's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

Go ahead.  Post everything you find out.  Be sure to call what you post "Fixes" so you can be accused of bashing the manufacturer.  Let folks accuse you of trying to make money by inventing problems that they don't believe exist.  Watch what you carefully work out picked to pieces, ridiculed, and modified by people who suddenly "have a better idea."  And, when it's all over have the folks you tried to help so firmly entrenched in the idea that you're out to get them personally that it's nearly impossible to make a positive contribution.  Have fun.

As for me, I think I'm about done.  I'm not gonna lose any more friends or sleep over this; enough damage has been done in both departments already.

Someone call me when the next large scale release comes out.  Provided it'll actually run on 45 mm track, and is somewhat compatible electrically with similar large scale equpment it might find itself running with.  Otherwise not.

Thank you, and good night!

Matthew (OV)



Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: tommygunner on January 21, 2008, 06:21:16 PM
I did'nt want to cause a rucus over the counterweight issue. I was just  seeking answers to a real problem my loco was having.
Dave G  (TOC) has helped me in the past on other locos and I appreciate his help. I only see one loco (mine). He sees many locos and can see if a problem is isolated to one loco or common to all.
I had my loco on 12-28 -07. After being initially wow'ed by the loco I started to experience the problems in my posts.
  I delayed bringing these problems up because if I had the one lemon why should I spoil the joy everyone was having anticipating their new K's.
 I also didn't want to discourage undecided buyers away from the loco,as I want this loco to be a sucess for Bachmann so that they might do other DRGW locos. Yea It's self serving to a certian extent as I would love a C-19 !!
 As I look at the exploded view of this loco and the hundreds of parts involved it is amazing that Chineese teenage girls can actually get them together! I sure as heck wouldn't want to build them all day long!! 
Maybe I should be  greatfull that some one else builds them and all I have to do is repair them .
 It still is disappointing to have to deal with repairing something that I feel should have been fixed at the engineering level not the customer level.  IMHO maybe these locos should have been delayed until the bugs were all out of them!!
I do thank all who have replied and helped me to fix my loco.


Title: Bill 375 Fix- Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: Jon D. Miller on January 21, 2008, 11:06:41 PM
Bill 375,
Thank you for your clear and concise posting on fixes for the loose counterweights.

I didn't realize this was a national security issue, or whatever. :o

I followed your procedure with the K-27 today. For my K-27 it took .008 to tighten the counterweights on the axle shaft.  In fact two could have probably used .009.  I used brass from a shim pack that is intended for adjusting Model A Ford connecting rods.  When split each shim is .004, so two did the trick to get to .008.

Also took a file to the axle ends, since as you pointed out they are a tad too long to allow the counterweight to seat.

The K-27 is now tight as a tick, thanks to you.  The locomotive was approaching 38 hours of run time and I had noticed that the counterweights were just about to the point to cause a lock-up.  Now all the crank pins are in quarter.

Again, thank you for sharing the information.  We're ready to rock and roll again.  What a sweet locomotive. 8)

JD


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: Bud Steinhoff on January 22, 2008, 10:17:21 AM
I also have put shims in the flats of the axle/wheels and it has corrected the sloppy problem.
My question is what is Bachman doing to make a permanate fix for this problem?
I do not hear any response from them .
Love the loco but it appears that some one did not check or control tolerances on these parts.
Bud


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: Steve Stockham on January 22, 2008, 12:12:29 PM
  It will be interesting to see what Bachmann's "official fix" is for this problem (and the five or six others that have cropped up!) Well, Dave's got mine and I'm sure that it's going to be a sweet engine when it gets here! Considering that the K-27's innovations are as far above the 2-8-0 Connie as it was above the Big Hauler, "teething problems" are not only understandable but expected! The trick is not to "blame" someone who is trying to help but to take it all and use it in the spirit for which it was intended!
  If there is a criticism to be labeled it would have to be that certain people at Bachmann seem to want to hold all of these innovations "very close to their chest" without consulting with the people that would have found some (if not most) of these "problems" ahead of time! This goes back to marketing as well as research and development.
  Be that as it may, that part is over for this engine and the main focus now needs to be working together to "iron out the wrinkles." Please hurry up Bachmann and "officially" address them!


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: Phil Stump on January 23, 2008, 11:21:51 PM
You all seem to be getting all upset over something that is so easy to fix. I repaired mine today in less than 1 hr at no cost. I cut 1/8 x 1/8 shims from plastic and put them in very easily. the screws tighten up with no effort and the problem is solved. This is the engine we have been waiting on for so long. lets just enjoy it.


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: Phil Stump on January 23, 2008, 11:25:40 PM
You all seem to be getting all upset over something that is so easy to fix. I repaired mine today in less than 1 hr at no cost. I cut 1/8 x 1/8 shims from plastic and put them in very easily. the screws tighten up with no effort and the problem is solved. This is the engine we have been waiting on for so long. lets just enjoy it.


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: rslater on January 24, 2008, 08:39:35 AM
Bachmann should send shim kits to all who returned their warranty cards.  I will fix mine before they arrive, but it would be nice to have an extra set.


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: Bud Steinhoff on January 24, 2008, 11:51:28 AM
I have mine shimmed and filed the ends of the axles which is a good temporary fix.
But it seems that Bachman is just following the temporary fix as their permanent fix.
For a proper repair, replacement counterweights with the correct  toleranced hole to fit the axle would be more professional and permanent, especially on parts that are functional and drive the wheels.
I use to shim rod bearings on my cars but eventually found out that it was just  a quick fix that did not last.
Still think it is a great loco but had to voice my view.
Bud


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: jsmvmd on January 24, 2008, 04:09:33 PM
Dear Tony,

I get your drift, but hope your conclusions are not the case, since I would hope the posters here would be equitable and realize certain experts got that way from years of experience and doing the job.  In Dave's case, I presume he was told to keep mum, and being the good soldier he is, complied.

My hat's off to Bachmann, Mr. B and Dave for being the good friends they are.

Best Wishes,

Jack


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: Tony Walsham on January 24, 2008, 06:49:22 PM
Bud,
Personally I agree with you.
New counterweights would be the better long term solution. 
However they will take some time to produce.

For the short term the shim kits will solve this particular problem for Bachmann.

Next on the list should be a solution to the chuff timer that does not work with most popular aftermarket sound systems running on regular DC.  A solution that does not require the consumer to purchase electronic parts and mount them themselves.

I would then expect Bachmann to announce that the next production run will incorporate all the fixes found to be necessary to turn what is an excellent model into a superb one.


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: glennk28 on January 24, 2008, 08:48:06 PM
At what point should a problem become evident?  I have only been running my loco back and fortgh on the banch--about 12 feet.Is the looseness radial or lateral? Should something drastic happen suddenly, or is this a thing that develops over time?


Title: Re: Loose counterweights on K-27
Post by: soulmann on January 24, 2008, 11:53:46 PM
I wanted to chime in and thank everyone for their time and advice in trying to fix this problem.

I have not yet run my K(LOTS going on); I'm curious if my example has the same problem as well. I'm a beginner, and though I think I understand the instructions, I'm wondering if anyone can post any close ups of the procedure. I'd really like to get this right the first time.

Thanks,

Soulmann