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Discussion Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: Summertrainz on February 16, 2008, 12:22:09 AM

Title: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: Summertrainz on February 16, 2008, 12:22:09 AM
i have a feeling the times are changing,
the kid's ask for train set's less  :-\
and the "original" model fans are... dare i say it
getting... even more elderly.   :-X

technology might get  better... maybe more digital trains with the digital age... more reliable things.
model trains shows are still largely attended.
Mostly by family's with 5 year olds

Can anyone tell me what they think the possible future could bring?
???

But in my perspective, it looks like model railroading is a dieing hobby.
i honestly hope not  :-[
and how is Bachmann's  stock doing?

Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: BIG BEAR on February 16, 2008, 01:16:36 AM

    Hey Summertrainz, 

          Yes things are always a changin'. Back in the 40's & 50's Lionel pushed the Father / Son aspect. By the late 60's & later, over 1/2 the marriages, ended in divorce.
       Not all is lost. I see things in the recent past ( less than 10 years ),
like The Polar Express, Harry Potters' Hogwarts Express, & yes even Thomas, helping to introduce trains to the younger generations.
      The model train world is already oxploiting these to their advantage & good fortune. Who knows what book or cartoon or story will be out next to promote trains in a good way?

          Enjoy,
            Barry 
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: Yampa Bob on February 16, 2008, 01:40:52 AM
"Original " fans as you call them are getting older, that's true.  But there are more older people now, longer life expectancy.  Retired men, like myself, looking for something to occupy our time after 50 years of hard work.  And while it may be less "Father and Son", there is a lot more "Grandpa and Grandson".

My son is 48, a Grandpa himself.  I sent him all the trains and track to start a layout, and he is building one now.  During the last year I spent over $3,000 on train stuff.  I call that an investment, the returns will be priceless. 

Younger men are facing greater challenges of survival in a tough world.  I made it through, my son has finally built up a good vocation as a Diesel mechanic, helped send 4 kids through college.  His son is now hooked on trains and helping with the layout. 

Trains are here to stay, trains for the young kids, and trains for us old kids. 

Bob





Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: geoff on February 16, 2008, 04:14:05 AM
I wonder about that myself. Most younger people I have come across seem to want more instant gratification with video games etc. Short term entertainment. Something you can pick up, do it and put it down again. Model railroading takes time and patience. Even a medium size pike can take years of work. It also requires a certain amount of commitment to the hobby. Today everything seems to be getting more temporary and generaly speaking model railroading is not the most portable hobby. I also don't see young boys learning to use there hands on woodworking or mechanical projects with their fathers as much as when I was a boy. I have always had a passion to build and tinker and I have always enjoyed working with my hands. In my opinion working with your hands is a must for a model railroader unless you have someone else build your railroad, and then, what's the point? It is the most multi facetted hobby and will provide you with a lifetime of learning. I just think that kind of commitment and sence of permanence is becoming more rare. Who is going to start a railroad in the basement if you may have to move again next year? One thing is for sure, I would not want to compete with one of todays youngsters on a flight simulator or even MS Trains! By the way, no intention of slighting the ladies, there are some, but very few in our hobby. Id like to see more!
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: Paul W. on February 16, 2008, 08:02:20 AM
I don't believe trains are on their way out, but times are ALWAYS changing. When I was growing up, yes my Dad and I were into trains, and had multiple layouts in the basement. Then I started dating and trains were forgotten about for years. Years after that, I got married and guess what got me back into trains.....my wife! She had never had trains, but loved watching them, so one year we bought "her" a large scale B-mann set for under the tree. We now have numerous large scale trains, we have also gotten my dad back into the hobby which we both enjoyed growing up. The tides turned, he originally brought me in, now we returned the favor. It gives him and I a chance to spend time together. During open houses, and garden tours, my wife and I take him with us to visit other layouts, and I cherish this time I still have with my Dad.
As for the younger generation, like him or not, Thomas brings kids into this hobby. My nephew loves Thomas, he has been to Strasburg to actually ride behind him, and that also introduces him to the "real" trains of the past and present. He has a layout in his basement, and yes for now it's every Thomas train you can think of, but hopefully this will eventually lead to his first HO or O starter set (I don't think his mommy would go for large scale....). This year we will be taking him along with us on garden tours, so here we have re-introduced my dad (older generation), myself and wife (middle age), and our nephew (younger generation) to this hobby. 
The popularity of large scale right now (in my opinion) is growing very quickly. We we take garden tours, more and more people are joining in, and even using suspended systems in their homes (like we did for my dad).

So yes, things always change, but there are always some constants that always stay around, and thankfully in my eyes, trains are one of them!
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: Guilford Guy on February 16, 2008, 10:12:24 AM
Quote from: geoff on February 16, 2008, 04:14:05 AM
By the way, no intention of slighting the ladies, there are some, but very few in our hobby. Id like to see more!
Oh I am positive there are!
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: Dusten Barefoot on February 16, 2008, 10:35:13 AM
What kids need is to visit a tourist steam railroad to get the blood flowing. That is how I got hooked. ::)
Rock On & Live Strong
Dusten
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: TonyD on February 16, 2008, 10:53:22 AM
Always seems that way, but the West Springfield show had nearly 30,000 people in 2 days, munchkins, yeah, teenagers, a few, but the bucks were flowing with the 35-65 crowd, and that's what makes the world go 'round. Little kids can't do much in the hobby unless the parents are into it aswell, a 10 year old can't budget one engine a year, in the late 60's, I could buy one a month. Teenagers...hey, a car soaks up all your money for the duration, life is hard enough, unless they already have a nice layout to escape to, that's it until things get better in their late 20's- or later. Then the dcc push turns off the crowd who now has the bucks, but get frustrated, it wasn't around when they were a kid!!!. Then..things get good. The over 40 crowd lays out the big bucks that keep new stuff in the works, and that's all that counts. It was Quantum sound that got me back in 6-7 years ago, after 10-12 years in the boxes. I found no use for the 8 bills I spent on dcc, that in what's in the boxes now! It would be perfect if kids got into this at 5, at kept it up, but life don't work that way. As for the gals, yep, some the best scenery and details are from the people with a well developed artistic side, the beauty they create encourages us all. As for 'investing', no swet. As fuel goes up, money gets tight, people stay home. This is 'thee' at home family hobby. Don't worry as age groups change, street rodders, custom cars are the same. Years ago it was teenagers doing all the work, but...spent little money at it. NOW..middle aged guys are laying out untold zeroes into their cars and projects.... which grew the custom parts industry 10 fold in 40 years. now the few teens that 'can' do the work, can afford the huge choices of stuff there is now. Go to the bank. take it all out, invest it in model railroads.....maybe Mr. Bachmann will sell you some shares!!
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: r.cprmier on February 16, 2008, 12:18:06 PM
maybe Mr. Bachmann will sell you some shares!!

Bachmann is publicly traded?

Rich
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: rains train on February 16, 2008, 01:07:10 PM
Elderly?  :D I'm quite the opposite, and I'm not five either. 13 is a pretty good age I say.

Alex
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: RAM on February 16, 2008, 02:28:40 PM
Barry you forgot Back in the 50's Lionel pushed the Father / daughter.  Or maybe it was mother daughter.  With the pastel train sets.  They did not sell, but there are a lot of ladies in the hobby today.
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: Guilford Guy on February 16, 2008, 02:40:27 PM
loll, 14 is better  :)
Its ever so much more fun when your girlfriend is qualified to run trolleys in Maine  :)
There still is a fair trend for trains, and Thomas the Tank Engine seems to have brought it out of the dark ages in the 70's-80's... I have to admit, as much as I find them annoying, its better to have Thomas Fans than to not...
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: TonyD on February 16, 2008, 03:31:28 PM
I'll tell ya, with all the threads about code so and so track, and a curve radius that takes up the whole room, hey, if my layout looked and ran like the fidor grand trunk or whatever it is, I'd be more than happy!! I bet that is a huge guage.... when I go into my second childhood....(next month?) I'll start collecting  Thomas stuff for myself, the kid's has eyes that roll in his smoke box door- do they all do that???.....
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: SteamGene on February 16, 2008, 06:37:01 PM
I spent most of the day at the Hampton, Va train show (more of that later) and there were A LOT of FASCINATED kids and parents.  And there were a lot of things that seemed designed to draw kids toward trains.  I'm reminded of the Greek, 2500 years ago who lamented the end of civilization as "we know it."  Seems we muddle through, though things change.  I picked up a kit in January with a copyright date of 1939.  The first instruction was close to "Find a good, straight trunk hardwood sapling about three feet high..."  Big difference from today.
Gene
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: Conrail Quality on February 16, 2008, 10:46:11 PM
Contrary to what many seem to think, there is a sizeable group of teenage model railroaders (myself included). As TonyD has said, we don't spend as much on the hobby as the other age groups, but 20-30 years, we'll be the ones economically driving the hobby. And for those just starting out in the hobby ther is  good news. Despite prices rising on the higher-priced stuff (Atlas, Bachmann Spectrum, etc.), the lower-end stuff is still quite affordable; One can still get an HO train set for under $100. That's a bargain compared with $300 most video game console cost. In addition, train sets have come long way. Now, most include can motors and some form of knuckle coupler, a far cry from the days of unreliable pancake motor drives. With more reliable equipment, the begining modler is less likely to leave the hobby in fustration. So, in short, I think there is a bright future for model railroading.

Timothy
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: TonyD on February 17, 2008, 01:02:53 AM
Gosh when I was a teenager, it was "Penn Central' not even Conrail... you are so right, the quality of even mid range stuff is better than top of the line 30 years ago....and the bad ol' days of the 70's and 80's, gosh, Spectrum's BL-2 was the ONLY decent thing out there, everythign else was on a slide, lucky things got to the point we enjoy now. But, you young guys got to do what some of the old timers ride ya about- you don't have to scratch build with steam gene's baby tree, but do some kitbashing of buildings and structures, then diesel and car shells, steam boilers if you're into that stuff. Some one was on the B man about a GP-38? compare to GP38dash2. Like one or two barely visable changes to a door. Years ago people took a geep anything and HAD to make it into what you wanted....I wanted early U23b's, D&H, several differences from late version models out there. Had to cut up and splice together 3 different shells to get what I wanted...not that long ago either...The collection of tools, knowledge of materials and SKILLS you will gather while killing time, will stay with you forever. My modeling skills got me jobs, fixed stuff on or in the house, and even airbrushed little 'accidents' to the car paint. Rather than wait till places freeze over for a certain model - you just pick up the closest thing, and MAKE it into what you want. What do Marines say? IMPROVISE?? Yeah you will trash stuff, but it doesn't get thrown out, it eventually becomes part of another project... someday, if you are carefull, you kids will have as much junk as us old guys.....but it will be leftovers from some awesome projects you didn't just scratch up the money to 'buy'... but -you- made....... 
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: r.cprmier on February 17, 2008, 09:57:41 AM
Tim;
You make some good points.  While I don't plan on being around in thirty years, I do hope that the hobby is still flourishing-and you are quite correct:  You and your peers will be economically driving this hobby.

Rich

PS:  Tony D;
When I was a kid, it was New Haven...Steam and electric.  It sounds crazy, but I would have liked to grow up around Blatchley Ave in New Haven; not far from Cedar Hill, Motor storage, and the Gilbert Hall of Science!!!

Man; trains and pitching little league...What a gas!!
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: Atlantic Central on February 17, 2008, 10:53:06 AM
Truth is, this has always been a hobby of "old men". I started when I was only 12 but quickly realized I had a lot to learn and the old guys where the place to learn it.

Many years ago MR did one of their first "surveys" of the hobby. The average age was 34. I would imagine it is still about the same, maybe a little older with the shift in population age.

And, truth is, its a hard hobby to afford until you are established in the world.

But in spite of all that, I think the hobby is doing just fine and there is lots of "new blood" regardless of the age of that new blood. Some are young people and that is great to see, some are older people who never had the time or money when they where younger, it matters not.

The hobby is ever changing but doing just fine. Quality RTR has allowed skilled modelers to build larger more complete layouts than could have ever been dreamed of years ago. Technology has given us wonder products both in the RTR and craftsman sides of the hobby. Its a great time in the hobby and that will fuel its continued growth.

Sheldon
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: rains train on February 17, 2008, 12:29:18 PM
Quote from: Guilford Guy on February 16, 2008, 02:40:27 PM
loll, 14 is better  :)
Its ever so much more fun when your girlfriend is qualified to run trolleys in Maine  :)
There still is a fair trend for trains, and Thomas the Tank Engine seems to have brought it out of the dark ages in the 70's-80's... I have to admit, as much as I find them annoying, its better to have Thomas Fans than to not...

Oh really? Good then, I'll be 14 on May 27th!!  ;D

Alex
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: Kevin Strong on February 17, 2008, 02:53:03 PM
I'm not too worried about the future of the hobby. I think it will always be there in some form or another. I've always been into trains since, well, since I could crawl, really. I grew up going to local train meetings, and listening to the "old guys" lament that the hobby was fading; that kids in that day only wanted to play video games (Atari!!! Woo hoo!!!) and play in rock bands. By and large, that's what kids my age were doing, so it's easy to understand their concern.

However, 25 years later, those same kids who were straining their thumbs on joysticks now have kids of their own, and are settled down to where they have some extra time and money to spend on a hobby. I'm no longer the "lone" member of my age group. A fair number of folks on this (and other) boards are in our 30s, and will hopefully be around for another 50 or so years, introducing our kids and grandkids to model trains.

Later,

K
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: Yampa Bob on February 18, 2008, 03:08:09 AM
I sometimes wish I had made the transition to trains earlier, say 15 years ago, more years to enjoy the hobby.

But then I think, well suppose I had started earlier?  I would now have a bunch of worn out locos, poorly detailed rolling stock, horn couplers, obsolete track and turnouts.  At least I'm starting with what I consider state of the art, including DCC equipped and well made locos.   

I'm satisfied with the timing,  I'm probably farther ahead now than I would be if I did start many years ago.  I got my son and grandson into the hobby recently.  They are building a large layout that will have both trains and slot cars.  Someday all my stuff will be shipped to them.

Bob



Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: HoboHarley on February 18, 2008, 10:53:28 AM
Our thoughts on this subject are mostly our opinions. My opinion is there will always be model railroading as long as there are trains and kids. The glorious model steam engines so many of us treasure in owning will give way to the power of today: Diesel Locomotives. There is still some fantasy and attraction to railroading in general and not to worry about the hobby disappearing.
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: TonyD on February 18, 2008, 12:00:22 PM
Your hunch is right on Bob, 15 years ago was the 'comma' in HO, large scale was where the action was, until I heard a Broadway Hudson...there was 2 decades of watching a sheet of paper matt grass grow...you didn't miss nothin'.....Like Carly Simon sez "these are the good ol' days"!!!
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: Beatle (TrainBrain) on February 18, 2008, 06:03:00 PM
OK, the first 2 posts have Bob Dylan's "The Times Are A-Changin'" running through my head.

I think modeling can go either way. It could slowly fade away, or kids could start to enjoy using a controller that does something in real life. I think if companies advertise: "It's a real life video game!" the business will boom.

Hopefully, not literally, with kids thinking there's guns & rockets involved...
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: Yampa Bob on February 18, 2008, 08:05:06 PM
My biggest concern is the current technology explosion.  We buy something today, tomorrow it's obsolete.  That's ok for the manufacturers, they just keep pumping out new stuff, and we end up with yesterday's garbage. 

This is the age of expendability.  You don't repair a computer, just trash it and get a new one.  This craziness is spilling over to the young people.   

Think about this: Millions of years from now, when the Earth is a barren lump, archaeologists from other planets will land here.  Imagine what they will think about the "treasures" they dig up.  Someone should put a Bachmann train set in a time capsule.

Bob
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: CHUG on February 18, 2008, 08:39:21 PM
yampa bob has a point about new technology and so forth. Companies keep making new technology and then the old stuff needs to get trashed. Somtimes i dont think there thinking right. Golf clubs and balls are in the same boat because they keep selling new ones every year and you need to trash the old ones or not be able to hit it as far as everybody else and nascar does sort a the same thing when they let people change teams and colors after everybodys already got shirts and hats and so forth in the other colors so everybody needs to get the new ones or look like a goof in the old ones. jr has the same number but holy toledo hes got way new colors. Also sport teams with there new uniforms. its bad customer relationships and business and bachman shouldnt do it you see. Thanks.
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: Woody Elmore on February 20, 2008, 01:34:05 PM
Yampa - your comment about obsolesence is right on the mark. Just yesterday Toshiba announced that it was giving up on HD DVD. Blue Ray has won but what about all the folks with HD DVD players. When it comes to technolgy we can qoute Donald Rumsfled "We don't know what we don't know." The file of electronics changes by the minute.

Hmmm.... I guess  I should see if I can sell my CB radio, 35 mm camera and cassette tape deck on Ebay. I bet I can get a great bargain on an HD DVD player!
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on February 20, 2008, 03:33:30 PM
Quote from: Woody Elmore on February 20, 2008, 01:34:05 PM
Hmmm.... I guess  I should see if I can sell my CB radio, 35 mm camera and cassette tape deck on Ebay. I bet I can get a great bargain on an HD DVD player!

Anybody interested in an 8-track player?  ;)  ;D
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: TonyD on February 20, 2008, 04:22:53 PM
who was it that had an AMC Pacer??? I'd prefer a Gremlin, but if I ws offered a nice Pacer at a good price...ooooo...how 'bout a swap for some extra HO stuff...seems like my eyes were bigger than my layout.....pre dcc HO stuff too....
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: SteamGene on February 20, 2008, 05:32:42 PM
Tony,
Like a LeCar?  I have an old Adam computer, too.  Neither is train equipment (mandatory mention of trains in the message)
Gene
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: Yampa Bob on February 20, 2008, 08:57:05 PM
I still have my first computer, a Commodore VIC 20.  I keep it as a reminder of those so-called good old days. No software, had to write programs in BASIC.

One time I had a huge derail that reminded me of one I saw on TV.  It was a coal run, engine front and back.  The lead loco went off and the rear just kept shoving everything off the track..I suddenly had a flashback impulse to grab a huge hammer, as was often suggested for computers.

I'm  thinking magnetically controlled  Monorail might be the next step in trains. Unlimited speed, impossible to derail.  We might be in awe of our current trains, but as often quoted "You ain't seen nothin' yet"

Bob






Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: TonyD on February 21, 2008, 12:31:14 AM
Bonjour gene, coma ca va? Le Car a vente? quel an? Ces possible, le transmission automatique? No petite Gremlin pour moi? gosh. I want some of Bob's solar panels too, I better get my trailer out of the snow bank huh? And my commodore 64 is sitting in a box waiting for me to fling this rig out the window..... same as the open motor engines were sitting in the round house door, like Thomas and freinds, gloating as they watched the dcc trials go downhill...
Title: Re: IS there a bright future for model railroading?
Post by: Yampa Bob on February 21, 2008, 02:52:14 PM
Since this thread is about the future, it might be appropriate to elaborate on the solar modules,  they are a viable option for a portable or garden railroad, perhaps at a remote cabin, outdoor exhibition, etc. 

Solar technology is fairly simple,  layers of semi conducting material (silicon) doped with additives (boron) to produce a  Photovoltaic cell.  A single cell generates about 1/2 volt of DC electricity, so it takes 36 cells to provide a nominal 12 volts (18 volts peak) module.  Modules are arranged into panels and arrays to provide higher voltages and amperages needed for homes and other application.   

Pure DC, and wired just like batteries, in series for more voltage, in parallel for more amps. 

You see the small modules along railroad tracks for signaling and communications, by highways for emergency phones and traffic warnings, anywhere that the grid isn't available.

With some exceptions, including water pumping, solar panels don't power anything directly.  They are used to charge batteries, the batteries provide the power, either as DC, or through an inverter to provide AC.   Batteries are dangerous, a car battery can generate an instantaneous amperage of thousands of amps   Always remove the negative cable first, and reinstall the negative terminal last.   First off, last on.  I forgot myself once and welded a wrench to the car frame while taking off the positive terminal first. 

Batteries to power your trains?  Nothing new, we did it many years ago before the REA ran lines to farms. Ever see a windcharger on an old farm house?  Yup, it was charging surplus telephone batteries to light the home.  

If you only want to run your trains when the sun can hit the panels, you can wire them directly.  There's  a catch.  Sun goes behind a cloud, the train slows or stops. Solution:  Get a small hobby battery, 12 volts at 5 to 7 AH, a charge controller to regulate the charging current from the panel, and you're set to go. 

Quality modules are scarce as most are being shipped to Germany. This site has some inexpensive ones that will work.

http://www.northerntool.com

There are some errors in their catalog, I haven't checked the specs on the site lately.

You only need a small charge controller for this, not the huge one they list for large arrays.  Charging amps for small batteries are usually C/10, meaning  1/10 the battery ampere/hour rating, or .7 amp.  The Tower wallwart charges at 600 milliamps or .6 amps.

A 15 watt panel  $80, charge controller  $30, battery  $25  Add your own protective stuff like fuses, current limiters (light bulbs)or resistors.  That's still a fairly weak panel, only provides 1.25 amps of charge, a little better than a trickle charger, as here is the theory: 

Say your loco draws .8 amps. Run your loco for one hour. You just used .8 amp hour of current from a 7AH battery, about a 10% discharge.  The charge controller should just keep the battery peaked and into the float stage.

Of course if you only run for a short period, use a battery or two and forget the panel and charge controller.

You still need a throttle. Take apart a standard DC controller, bypass the transformer and rectifier circuit, you only need the rheostat.  You can leave the delay action circuit breaker if you want, but I would still use external fusing.  Add polarized plugs for the battery leads.  Any rheostat of adequate power rating will work. 12 volts @1 amp = roughly 12 to 15  watt. It may get a little warm.  If you are not comfortable doing this, find an electrical savvy person to assist. Use fast action fuses and get a bunch of them, 1 amp just like your controller. 

If you need  3 amp for a garden loco, you need a 50 watt panel a high power rated throttle and a larger battery, say 28 to 30 AH.  Be careful as this many amps can do some unwanted welding.  You can still use the small charge controller, but it won't keep the battery peaked.      

For DCC you need a pure sine wave inverter to change to AC, but most inverters are only square wave. I don't recommend DCC as it may ruin your controller or power panel.

Battery from Tower Hobbies is  gel electrolyte  so no acid to spill, buy the wallwart charger also. You can get a digital voltmeter from some NAPA stores for $10 (bargain  bin) It measures  DC and AC volts and  DC current to 10 amps.

Bob