Someone gave me the information earlier but I forgot to put in my log book. I'm sure Gene or others can refresh me on this. I don't recall if the information was posted here or came in a mail.
Seems most steam locomotives have the number on the cab, and the name and logo on the tender. One exception I noted is Santa Fe, which has a large number on the tender but only the name initals on the cab.
Then some have the same number on both the loco and tender, for example Illinois Central. Perhaps Lanny mentioned it at one time, but thought a post here might be interesting to others as well.
Oh, would a loco and tender ever have different numbers?
I guess a yard manager knows the various numbering routines of different railroads for identification. Any information helpful
Thanks
Bob
"Oh, would a loco and tender ever have different numbers?"
No. Not running numbers. If the engine displays No. 1234, then the tender will dispay No. 1234. All tenders carry the road number, with no exceptions. Some in big bold numers on the side of the tender, some in bg bold numbers on the rear of the tender and some will small numbers on the rear of the tender but they all carried the road number.
However, some railways did number tenders in their own series. This would be for accounting and maintenance records only. The same as some railways had 'classes' of tenders, just like they did with locomotives, freight cars, passenger cars and cabooses.
It is no simple matter to separate loco and tender. If you think unplugging the Bachmann electrical plugs is difficult, try separating a modern tender from a modern locomotive! It had to be done once a year. The only objection I have to Roger's statement is that I can see some freak accident where two locomotives wrecked and one damaged the loco and the other the tender, so it might be that loco A received tender B and they weren't repainted at once. Also, most locomotives had between two and three tenders during its life time.
As a rule, after 1920 or so, railroads east of the Mississippi carried the road name on the tender on the side while some western roads - Santa Fe, IC, and several others carried the road number on the tender. Prior to 1920 some eastern roads, C&O being an example, had the road number on the tender sides.
Gene
"All tenders carry the road number, with no exceptions. Some in big bold numers on the side of the tender, some in bg bold numbers on the rear of the tender and some will small numbers on the rear of the tender but they all carried the road number."
Norfolk and Western did not have a locomotive road number on their tenders. They only carried the equipment number on the rear.
Well, another take on this was, early engines with the square headlight with a kerosene lamp and polished reflector usually didn't have an illuminated numberboard, 'cause it was useless, just too dim. With acetylene it was sometimes visible to a station agent or interlocking tower as it rolled by in darkness. So, huge numbers on the side of the tender had a better chance of being read by the dim light of a kerosene lamp on a platform etc. As electricity became manditory on trains in US & Can. after WW1, numberboards were bright and clear, and as juice reached further into the wopwops, and onto the platforms, huge white and silver #'s on the tenders weren't necessary, but SF and a few others prefered to keep them, handy for workers at night or in the distance in a big yard with a 100 of these things stuck all over the place. And, about repairs, a tender is miserable thing, a plumber's putty squished between lines of 1 inch rivet holes, maybe thousand's of them, and the 'bad water', rust, vibration, hard hits when coupling - wooden flatcars were all that's under the early ones, lots of down time. Some roads just hand painted small numbers to match whichever engine it was hook to at the moment. On the back, again to save steps for hosler's and yard men. Like DRW just said, maybe just an inventory code #. Many UK lines and other countries had 'one size fits all', no numbers, no special functions, just grab a good one and let's get back on the board. As Gene stated, not an easy coupling, water hoses, brake and heat lines and more. Hours insted of minutes. But, whenever, however often as necessary, if the locomotive was roadworthy, hanging around a day for tender repairs was money down the tubes. Many people don't realize the selling point of diesels, the final $$$ nail in the coffin. One diesel, atleast one run, two jobs?, or more?, in 24 hours. Steam, for every two needed for traffic, atleast one in the shop getting ready to fill in. And maybe another one stone cold in the 'back shop' possibly ready later that week....or month. Hum.. Seems tenders are not a very romantic subject....
The Southerm Railway put numbers on the tenders of freight engines. Somebody told me that the SRy engine number would be the train number. So if engine 3457 was leaving the yard with a train it would be train #3457. I have never seen or heard this from any other source and it seems like a strange way to do things..
Then there is the SP practice of posting the train number on numberboards at the front of the engine. This was different than the locomotive number.
All these railroads were private companies so there is no standard method used.
B&M used a simplified scheme on switchers of having the Road number on the tender, and no markings except for a small "B&M" beneath the cab window. This faded in the 20's when they began putting the Box Herald on the tender, and the road number on the loco's.
This is interesting. I thought each company had a certain scheme, but it seems to have no set rule, even within each railroad. I bet it drove the yard manager nuts.
I suppose later radio communication made it easier, but I also assume there were some pretty large yards before radio. Then the engineer or someone had to "check in" with the yard office. Do you think they ever "lost track" of a train?
Bob
Sure, read "A Subway Named Mobius."
DRW807 wrote: -
"Norfolk and Western did not have a locomotive road number on their tenders. They only carried the equipment number on the rear."
Not saying you're wrong but I do find it hard to believe that the N&W did not put the engine number on the rear of the tender. If the engine is in the roundhouse with the tender at the door, the usual way for engines to sit in the roundhouse, how could you read the engine number if it's not on the rear of the tender? If the engine is running in reverse, how could operators know the engine number of the approaching locomotive for train orders?
Again, not saying you are not correct, I just find it hard to accept.
What do you mean by "equipment number"?
The ATSF had lovomotive number on tender and on number boards on the locomotive. SPs GS
locomotive did not have locomotive numbers on tenders so they could switch tenders if one need
to work done on it and not keep the locomotive out of service.
"What do you mean by "equipment number"?"
The tender number.
Check O. Winston Link's Book, The Last Steam Railroad in America, on page 25 and 36 for two quick examples. The pictures show the tender number and the tonnage.
Pg. 25 it's Number 90030 and 15tons.
Pg. 36 shows number 130030 and 15tons.
That is the only writing on the rear. The sides had Norfolk and Western on the tenders after about 1936 IIRC. Prior to that the N&W had the name in small letters on the cab under the window with the engine number over the name. There was nothing on the tender sides, as demonstrated on the current Life-Like heavy Mountain N&W model.
You can find pictures here also:
http://imagebase.lib.vt.edu/browse.php?folio_ID=/trans/nss
Be prepared to spend a lot of time on the Virginia Tech site.....
Now that makes sense. They should all have large numbers somewhere on the loco, and the tender with just a roadname and or logo.
The reason I asked, I bought several USRA standard unlettered tenders, DCC ready. I switched the circuits from 3 of my vandys over to the standard. My connie locos are now numbered 611, 612, 613 and 618. The 618 still has the vandy which is protypical for the Heber Valley Railroad which now owns the loco.
I plan to just put the UP shield on the locos as I only run modern excursions just like HVRR. In other words, YVRR owns all the locos, so I am not concerned about prototypes.
I don't know if those numbers are consistent with UP loco/tender type. It was just the easiest way to change the numbers. Also I can address my EZ command as 1,2,3 for the 3 connies. The 618 remains in the box for backup.
Bob
Mr. Yampa, remember one thing about the www, garbage in, garbage out. Remember another thing about Confusius, a picture tells a thousand words... well, maybe it was chairman mao, I forgot, but I have more books and photograghs of railroads than I do websites by a long shot. Me & DRW gots books.. even if I 'am' illiterate, I like ta look at the pictures... I have seen several pictures of Rutland, NYC and others, with tenders that did not match the engine #. No big deal, it was a piece of the pie, a train had better not be identified by whay ever end is coming at you, but by the number on the engine- yes, Woody is right, SR and several -many- others, Virgina and Truckee come to mind, who used engine numbers as train numbers, many- if not all extra trains went by the engine #, like "DRGW X-144 to Durango", and the espee had individual slits on those # boards- so it was like a bus with the roller affair. Or the people at the gas station wearing out that pole... As GG said, 'at one point in time' the B&M had big tender #'s, then logos, and like the New Haven in the first Morgan/ Mellon empire, nothing on the tenders .... 'blank tanks'. But there had to be #'s on the cab or dome, as well as up front. As for Rogertra's concern about 'a number', I would think a piece of chalk from the call board took care of that formality, but, by the book, the leading locomotive # was the one they had to go by. Seen a few snapshots of that chalk work too. Except for a 'dynamo' I would say the USRA lost all control of these inhouse issues, and it -was- extra worry for station agents and tower crews on a line with foreign power trackage rights, and lots of wrecks because of it. A Central Vermont/ B&M fatal cornfield meet in the early 70's was blamed on a misunderstanding of numbers. They were entering train numbers in a log book in a 'non agent' closed station. B&M also had espee style number board slots... As for nowadays... when I 1st saw an 'NdeM' chugg past me, I figure all bets are off....
Wow guys, there is a wonderful wealth of information on this site. There is so much for a newbie to learn about.
Pete
Bob,
If you want to create the fiction of a large railroad, instead of 611, 612, 613, 614, 618, try 611, 624, 630, 647, and 698.
Gene
DRW807
Thanks for the info re N&W tenders. that comes as quite the surprise.
Bob.
What can I say?
He bit through his leash. :(
Roger;
You're welcome.
Something I've learned in 56+ years of rail interest is that there is no universal rule when it came to railroads. Even the N&W, back in the 1800s, had the engine number on the side of the kerosene lantern mounted on the slopeback tenders. But they apparently did away with that in the late 1800s.
And transition era tenders had the tender number, capacity, AND N&W on some of them, as well as tech info for employees use, such as "Stoker sides removed from tender - beware of screws..." etc. (That last info was even included on the Bachmann model of the N&W J class tenders.)
QuoteAll tenders carry the road number, with no exceptions. Some in big bold numers on the side of the tender, some in bg bold numbers on the rear of the tender and some will small numbers on the rear of the tender but they all carried the road number.
I have learned to never use phrases like "no exceptions" or "
all carried"
when talking about railroads..
There were all kinds of exceptions..
and far from "all" tenders carried a road number. ;)
you could say "with few exceptions" or "most carried" and be accurate...but never say "all" unless you have personally viewed every tender than has ever existed in the entire world. ;)
Scot
Norfolk and Western didn't roll to a different drum - it had an entire different band!
Gene
Most steam engines had a tender behind :) Tony, when my brother was last down at steam town, the guide told him that 3713 had wheels on it from several of its sister engines. Tenders were swapped often, especially on the pennsy. so I guess numbering for them might have been a problem
Bpb, the East Broad Top interchanged with the Pensy, but, being narrow gauge, never left the home rails. It was only some 30 miles long, but all the engines had numbers - they are necessary for crew identification. Of course, you could give them names: Trigger, Scout, Silver, Seabiscuit, Fluffy, Fido, etc, but numbers are easier.
Gene
Don't forget 'Millie" :)
Thanks Gene, I never thought of that. All our cows had names, why not our locomotives. Maybe just a small number somewhere to code my EZC. :D
By the way, railroads have to pay for any livestock killed on the tracks.
Bob
Why would the railroads pay? The cows are trespassing on railroad property?
Doesn't work that way. It's my property, the railroad only has a right of way. The right of way agreement says they have to build and maintain all fences through ranches and pay for any damages. We had several cows killed by trains over the years, the railroad paid full market price for them.
Bob
So if you drive your car onto the tracks in front of a train and your hit, the railroad must pay in full for your car because its your property?!
Railroad's own the property they run on, thus if someone or something gets on the tracks, its owner is responsible...
Steam Engines and their tenders were matched in number when they were placed into service.
The number on the Engine was the only number used in identification of the train for operational purposes.
the number of thye tender was just that, a number just like on a boxcar to identify a specific tender. This number was recorded when work was performed on it as well as for locating it. As it was reported in a train consist.
It was possible, and happened no telling how many times, that an Engine would be operated without the matching numbered Tender. The tender mighht be bad order and work would have to be performed on it at the roundhouse. The Engine would be placed into service with another tender if available and later they would be placed back together.
Like someone stated before some roads numbered their tender and engine in numbers under the window of the unit and large nubers across the tender others had only number boards on the engines and large numbers on the tender. Then some had the numbers on the tender in other places and small in scale.
It was left up to the road how they numbered their tenders like someone said they just had them in a series similar to locomotives today.
However all locomotives were required by Rule Book in effect to have the numbers on the front of every locomotive and roads adopted a number board on both sides on the front.
This code of rules, the first form of uniform regulation of the railroads was created by and enforced by the roads themselves. There was the Uniform Code (The CB&Q adopted it), The Standard Code (ATSF adopeted it), The Consolidated Code (The Missouri Pacific adopted it) and other Roads chose which one they wanted.
Each Code had certain Rules that the Railroad could not vary from other rules had variations that each road was free to select just what rule they wanted. The differences were in wording and interpretation.
The roads did this in an effort to prempt federal intervention however the rising death tols of workers as well as passengers brought in the government to ride shotgun on the roads and the implementation of the Rules governing their operations.
The governing body over all Roads rules exist today as well as the various Codes that thye roads use. The main difference is that the Federal Railroad Administration and various entities have a say as well as input in the formulation and interpretation of any rule or any Code of Rules in effect.
Redtail67
Thanks Red
So the governing body that sets the rules is the "Federal Railroad Administration". I asked that question earlier and got no response.
It was just a curiousity to me. I could not imagine why there was such a lack of uniformity. Like Colorado requires license plate front and rear. Other states only require one. But at least within a state there is uniformity.
I don't like federal controls, but sometimes the anarchy becomes chaos.
Bob
Wrote a big long winded answer and tried to post it and i had timed out....lol
Well here it is No the FRA does not write the rules I can not recall the specific name of the body. I know it as the National Rules Committee. It is a body compsed of the nations railroads Rules Department representatives.
The write, change, delete and or add to any and all rules on the roads in the US.
The FRA has an approval role in the formulation of the rules they can suggest and in some cases mandate rule changes and or additions.
At the request of the BLE I was involved in reviewing and suggesting some rule changes in the 1980s'. The roads had for years been letting the Unions participate but we had no final say.
I had been a dedicated student of the rules since I hired out and was fascinated as how the rules worked together and I wanted to learn how it all came about. My position as an engineer required a thorough understanding of these rules as well as my being a Union representative for 30 years.
I had been certified and accepted by several courts as an Expert on the Rules as it was required to be so accepted to testify in court both for and against the carrier.
Also as a note about the right of way part of this thread. It is the responsibility of the railroads to fence all right of way to prevent access of stock to the tracks. This started because of many wrecks and resulted in many deaths when trains struck livestock and derailed.
The railroads were required to fence the stock off their tracks and provide means for stock to access other pastures on the other side. They pay for it and maintain it. If stock gets killed on the right of way they pay the rancher and they are liable if the train derails and injures anyone or for damages.
Did you know that the orginal telegraph poles were waist high or so? They were torn down by migrating herds of buffalo and the roads raised them to a standard height of 30 feet I think. This was to clear wagons and horseback riders. Later the cattle and sheep herds. There is a story on the C&S of 5 miles of wire being torn down by buffaloe moving south to Texas between Clayton, NM and Des Moines NM. When I left the railrod there were still about 15 of the orginal waist high poles with insulators attached at Des Moines.
Redtail67
And e-pal, a N&W "expert" confirmed that the N&W did NOT paint loco numbers on its tenders but painted the tender number in six inch numerals on the rear of the tender which I must admit, was a it of a surprise.
Just goes to prove that you live and learn.
I just got the new copy of the C&O Historical Society magazine. There is a picture of a C&O G-9 (2-8-0) # 991 acting as a shifter. The rear of the tender has soot on it, but it is totally impossible to see if there is a number on the rear. Normally the C&O had the engine number on the rear of the tender and could or could not have other data such as "C&O", coal capacity, water capacity, etc.
Gene