I bought a complete Walther's modern roundhouse on e-Bay some time ago and have the kit. I have a question of anybody with the Walther's 130' turntable, though the 90' may answer the same question. If I build the second roundhouse with the adjacent wall and glue the two walls together, will the turntable be able to index to the tracks in both roundhouses? This may be moot as one roundhouse will have to be cut to fit the back wall and at least one stall will be far too short for any engine. One, at the most two stalls will be useful - the two closest to the full size roundhouse.
Gene
Gene
The 90ft table will index anywhere except at two 180 degree points that are clearly marked on the bottom of the tabe rim.
I'd think, and this is only a guess, that you may need to slightly bend the stall approach tracks to the table to make up for the what. 1/4" thickness of the double walls? I'm having a problem figuring that out in my head. It may need to be drawn on paper to figure it out.
I have purchased a seconn Walther roundhouse, not the "modern" one but the older looking one so that when the GER expands, I san have a six stall Vs three stall roundhouse. I was thinging of just adding "ledgers" to the existing exterior wall to mate the extention roof and walls of the addition to the exististing roundhouse thus, hopefully, avoiding the need for your question.
Either way, given the large number of indexes possible with the table, you won't have indexing problems.
I chopped one up like that too Gene, and ended up not even using it...yet. But, if you are certain you will put 2 kits together, don't start the one till you buy the other, as you are laying it (the floor) out, you will easily see what should NOT be assembled- IIRC, there was instructions for additional stalls??? did you open the box yet?? Have a read...
Tony - one kit was bought assembled off e-Bay. The other has the floor and nothing else assembled. There are enough interior roof supports so that the "wall" next to the assembled wall could be a roof support and not a wall. Unfortunately the instructions for assembly using the "add-on" kit say "Instructions for assembly using the add-on kit are in that kit."
but putting them side by side and checking the difference in measurement between tracks within each segment and between tracks on the adjacent sides of each segment sounds like a good idea.
Gene
I received a suggestion on the Yahoo steam locomotive group to build both of them separately and have a single open track between them - dead track, storage, whatever. That would cover any indexing problem.
Thoughts? Also suggestion to paint the interior dark below the windows and a light color above it. Sounds like a good idea, though there will be little chance of seeing interior detail due to the distance from the layout edge.
Gene
U R modeling 1957? I would say the whole interior was charcoal black by then. The track between 2 houses was - I would think- one of 2 reasons, one RH was older than a new one built much later in history, or like that optical illusion twin turntables, the open line was a lead to -something further inback... 'the back shop'? or another turntable, but something active enough it didn't just continue thru a stall. I wouldn't think it is going to be necessary, did you butt the two together yet? I bet there will be nothing to fret about..
The second one is the flooring and the painted interior bracing. I'm liking the two round houses with a track open to the weather between them.
Gene
Gene. Most roundhouses were painted white, usually from about foot feet up from the floor with the lower foor feet painted at darker colour but not always. Walls were white as were ceilings. The interior of roundhouse never got overly dirty as few locos were stored in the roundhouse in steam and only went inside for maintenance and then in light steam, probably with little fire in the box. After all, it was a workplace for the maintenance staff and the last thing they wanted in the roundhouse was a smoke beltching locomotive.
Look at photos, always the best bet when checking on details and ideas for modelling, and you'll see what I mean about clean(ish) white interiors.
Remember, never model other people's model railroads, always copy from the prototype.
Very true, Roger. And most had an enormous smoke vent over where the stack would normally be. I know there was a locomotive with the fire up in the Scranton roundhouse when I was there and nobody was choking on smoke. I like the fact that Walthers makes the walls in two pieces. It will be easy enough to paint the interior wall one color (two colors) and the exterior wall a different one - at least for the one I'm constructing.
And yes, I do have more than one caboose. ;D
Gene
Gene;
Unless they were being stored for an extended length of time, the firebox had a banked fire to keep things "to heat" for the next run. One of the night watchman's jobs was to keep an eye on those fires. This was easier than starting a fire from cold, as it took an extraordinarily long time to do that. I am not sure of the usual status, but unless there were mitigating circumstances I would tend to believe that the locomotives were fueled and watered before their stall time and kept that way, banked fire.
Rich, I have an idea as to how long it took to bring a locomotive up to full pressure. :D I've painted the interiors (or am painting) a light gray down to the bottom of the windows and then natural brick below that. A compromise as I don't think the interior is going to be very visible any way. And I'm almost probably going to leave the two sections with a track running between them - going to the second turntable. ;D
Gene
Gene;
I have to hand it to you-you are a lot more ambitious than I. I have just started working on my coaling tower for the main terminal-roughly resembling that facility at New Haven, so I am just starting laying out the whole terminal-which will be surrounded on two sides by "water". I think that may look pretty neat.
Rich, the track between the round houses will go ... nowhere. But it may be I will have six useable stalls - even if one is only good for 0-6-0.
Gene
I know nothing about turntables or roundhouses, but speaking in a geometric sense, the centerline of all exit tracks must be precisely in line with the pivot point of the table. Relate this to radius lines of a circle, "X" degrees apart, all lines emanating from the center pivot.
You might have to remove the adjoining walls and modify the floor and roof to maintain the radius symmetry.
If I was to scratch build the roundhouse as a 6 stall unit, I would get the track and floor right, then build/modify the rest of the structure to fit.
Hope this helps
Bob
You mentioned the center track not going anywhere, wouldn't that make a good RIP track (Repair in place), for cars that need minor repairs?
Bob
Quote from: Yampa Bob on April 01, 2008, 08:31:41 PM
You mentioned the center track not going anywhere, wouldn't that make a good RIP track (Repair in place), for cars that need minor repairs?
Bob
RIP tracks are rarely accessed from the turntable Bob. They're usually but not always double ended and have a large concrete or blacktop working space around the tracks.
Well, I did say I know nothing about turnhouses or roundtables.
I always thought a roundhouse was round, with the turntable inside, like pictures I once saw of G.C.S. in Chicago. Of course a roundhouse in Pinochle is Kings and Queens around IIRC.
By the way, do you know what day it is? LOL.
Bob
Bob.
In the UK, roundhouse, as we know them were quite rare. However, there were a few that had up to four turntables inside and all four under cover. Mind you, they'd only be 60 to 65 foot tables, not the big 90 to 120 footers common in North America.
Bob,
Most roundhouses in the US were/are semi-circular or less. The turntable was outside the building in most instances - but that was shear size. Consider the disaster in Baltimore several years ago when the weight of the snow collapsed the roof of the roundhouse at the B&O Museum.
Gene
I can see where exterior turntables would be troublesome in this area, where we are accustomed to snow from 10 to 30 feet. I read that turntables were used where there was insufficient land for reverse loops and wye turnarounds. Out here we have plenty of land where the latter are used. Interesting, as I've said many times, so much to learn and so little time.
Bob
My understanding is that the Atlas turntable is patterned on a Canadian prototype, built that way to prevent snow build-up and that in several states with high snow fall the same pattern was used. Interestingly enough, Newport News, Virginia, which is where the big coal piers of the C&O were located, had no turntable or roundhouse. The locomotives turned on the Hampton wye. There was one at Phoebus for awhile, but that got replaced by a wye, too.
Gene
Out in the west the outdoor tracks were referred to as garden tracks for the hostlers to fire up or keep hot locomotives that had been serviced or required very little service. I would use you outdoor track for a hostler track. Most shops would not have a hot engine in if any work was to be done, mostly for safety reasons.
The SP had a large roundhouse and turntable at Sparks and Roseville specifically o service cab forwards being used in the Sierras. They also had a turntable at Norden to turn helpers. This was entirely under a snowshed.
SteamGene
Many UK turntables were similar to the Atlas table, with a deck over the pit so that staff could not fall into the pit. It was particularly common on turntables that were completely inside the roundhouse.
japasha
"Garden Track(s)" is a common term for the tracks radiating from the turntable that are outside and not inside the roundhouse. That's what they're called on my GER as it happens. :)
Some thoughts have been rattling around in my brain all day, so I'd like to throw them out for comment.
"Rip tracks are rarely accessed from the turntable".
I seldom ask why or why not, my father broke me from asking those questions, and they are taboo in the military. While I know little about roundhouses and turntables, I do know about maintenance. We operate a large fleet of tractors, equipment, trailers and support vehicles. When something needs repair that can't be fixed in the field, the unit is towed, trailered or driven to the shop, the shop is not taken to the equipment.
Ok, I'm President of a small private railroad, and my maintenance chief might advise me thusly:
To save money and make the most efficient use of personnel and resources, we need to concentrate facilities and equipment in a central area, rather than being scattered all over the yards, or sliding around in vehicles, subject to damage or neglect. He would also list a hundred reasons why the most logical place for repair of any stock, including freight cars, is in close proximity to storage and maintenance sheds or tracks. The reasons; TOOLS, of every conceivable type and function. Utilities, water, ladders, compressors, welders and torches, jacks, hoses and air tools of every type. Being able to turn a car around for sand blasting, painting or many other tasks would also be convenient, without the need for dangerous hoists and cables.
Based on this advice I would then direct him to install the RIP track by the sheds, either as a separate spur from the rear or side , or as an exit track from the turntable. Provide drainage, concrete, scaffolds or whatever is needed.
Logistics? A 110 foot turntable, 40 to 50 foot cars in need of refurbishing, and a compact 40 foot goat. If the RIP track aligned with the turntable lead track, as Gene has considered, then several cars could be moved into and out of the RIP. I can't imagine a turntable with a sign "For loco use only".
I can accept "rarely" as the status quo, but always struggle to keep "Can't" and "Impossible" out of my vocabulary. They do have a habit of popping up now and then in my life, that's my cue to try harder. The only box I think inside of is my lunch box.
Of course, when all else fails,there is always "Rule Number One" :D
Bob
If I build the round house as two units with a track going between them, it will be just a piece of track going somewhere. It might lead to a RIP track, it might lead to another turntable, it might lead to something else. Who knows? In actual fact, it will lead to the back wall. :D
Gene
Might that back wall be a good place for a painting of a building, or one of those silhouette thingies?
Bob
Gene;
If you are looking for "expansion", a mirror might do well there. One time, I placed a mirror across a wall about 3 feet and about 6 inchesd high. I installed a highway overpass over the yard, and it looked like the yard went on forever. I got the idea from S. Broadway in Boston, Mass.
I'm thinking a background building would be a possibility - though the one round house goes all the way to the walls and the other is tight, at least on one side. I've done some thinking about mirrors, too.
Gene.
Gene, don't worry, lots of roundhouses were butted up against steep hills, CV in New London AND White River Jct. come to mind. I wouldn't sweat about two buildings either, I've learned not to come unprepared for this class, but I just can't find pics of the RH's I've seen that were just additions to additions, I would think like city buildings, an archetect or some code would decide if there was an alley, firebreak or a shared wall with an older building.. And you say this RH is about 5-6 feet from the visitors? You can leave it till later, much later... unless they bring field glasses. Gosh, I can't see details I know are there when 3 feet away, I get a good look when there's a wreck and I have to lurch right in the scene.... as for Yamba, RIP is just short for 'repair in place', inotherwords, it doesn't have to limp back to a proper car shop, just dropped off at a hard surfaced later 'paved' area around a section of track so the repairmen could jack up, crawl under and otherwise get the car going again. For the sake of time, it would be a loop siding rather than a spur, so the train crew didn't have to kill even more time switching it around. And as it was ready to go, a couple guys with an 'armstrong locomotive' would move cars in and out of the operating room. Yes, a small machine shop building and sheds, and tons of parts, extra wheelsets, trucks, bearing dodads, brake and coupler stuff, cars that were really wrecked had to get carried to the shops, or the wooden ones, emptied, burnt, and the metal bits used again as spare parts. There was a big wreck on the Rutland in my mom's hometown, in the depession. People had kindling for years afterwards. Years ago, I would say a long road would have a rip track every 40 or 50 miles or so, that way a cripple didn't have to endure more than 20-25 miles of 'risk'. And dead slow at that. For a really cool rip track, I have the 'slim rails thru the sand' a hardbound, but look for the SP narrow guage - Laws or Bishop, Cal? Everything, all the tools, were just layed out on this paved area. Hey. No rain for 200 miles, no thieves for 200 miles..... but the oxy acetelene cylinders just sittin' there in the Death Valley sun.... no OSHA back then...
I said "if it couldn't be fixed in the field" LOL
RIP also stands for "Rest in Peace" or "Really in p...s poor shape" :D
Bob
Well, I'm more familiar with the shorter earlier Walthers roundhouse kits, but they were designed to be 'modular' so you could put as many together as you wanted to, like three kits together to make a 9-stall roundhouse. I believe they're made to allow you to leave one wall off so they will all work together and all stalls will line up.
Otherwise, it wasn't uncommon because of space restrictions etc. for a turntable to serve two separate roundhouses. I'm sure you could find cases where a RR built a small roundhouse and a few decades later built a larger one separate from the first one for their newer larger engines. IIRC GN's Superior WI roundhouse had a fire or something and several stalls of the roundhouse were torn down, leaving a couple of open tracks between what was in effect two separate roundhouses.
Quote from: SteamGene on April 02, 2008, 02:57:05 PM
My understanding is that the Atlas turntable is patterned on a Canadian prototype, built that way to prevent snow build-up and that in several states with high snow fall the same pattern was used. Interestingly enough, Newport News, Virginia, which is where the big coal piers of the C&O were located, had no turntable or roundhouse. The locomotives turned on the Hampton wye. There was one at Phoebus for awhile, but that got replaced by a wye, too.
Gene
This is the Revelstoke roundhouse, note the Altas like wood deck on turntable.
http://www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/cgi-bin/www2i/.visual/img_med/dir_160/a_09598.gif
Wow. Look at the size of those domes, is Yamba Bob taking notes? I bet that is a UK import, can anyone focus in on the #? I can't imagine how they ever opperated 'without' this style turntable. 10 feet of snow falls in a hole 5 feet deep...now what? Shovel?
Yeah, I'm taking notes. In my younger days we called those, uh never mind you kids wouldn't understand old timer humor. :D
Bob
wjstx,
Yes, the Walther's round house kit is modular and it's designed to have add ons added to it. As stated, my problem is that I have two round house kits and not a kit and an add-on. The instructions for adding on, come with the add-on but the kit has an extra interior brace and it may be the add-on is missing both side walls.
But I'm liking the idea of the two round houses separated by a garden track going somewhere. Maybe I'll paint the ties gold and put something green at the end. :D
Gene
Gene,
I'm currently building the Walther's modular roundhouse myself. I have both the roundhouse kit and the add-on kit. The instructions for the add-on kit is the same as the main roundhouse kit except it doesn't have the sidewall assembly intructions as they are the only parts that don't come with the add-on kit. You can use your second roundhouse as the add-on by not using the the extra sidewalls. If you want, e-mail me offline and I'll scan the add-on kit instructions and send them to you.
Good luck with the kit.
Tom
I have a Korber roundhouse in the box, three-stall with a two-stall bonus. I also have a SS LTD Sterling, Colo. roundhouse in the box. That is one of my "retirement kits" when I can bury myself in this shoppe come winter and chortle sardonically at the world...Ah yes; retirement!
Back to serious; I am not sure if I want to do the Korber kit. I do like that Heljan kit; and with some modification, it can become really Amerikanerized.
I am still out on the turntable. Walthers, Diamond scale, or Bowser all look reqlly good. Am halfway through the coaling tower, so I have time here.
Tom - that's what I thought. Thanks for the offer, but you've told me all I need to know. I MAY look at the completed kit - the one I bought on eBay and see if I can remove one side wall easily.
But I'm liking the two sections and the garden track. What I really ought to do is try to make more dummy stalls.
Gene
Gene.
I think I've already mentioned that I purchased another Walthers roundhouse kit, the "old" roundhouse not the "modern" one, with a view to expanding the Granville Junction roundhouse.
As I didn't purchase the expansion kit I am planning on adding "ledgers" to the outside of the existing walls to support the roof and wall additions. The existing wall will simply be painted white on the "outside" to match the existing insdie wall colours and become a inside firewall, with an extention added to the roof to model the firewall extention above roof level. Perhaps a bit of overkill having a firewall in a six stall roundhouse but I think this is the easiest way to expand the existing roundhouse.