Hi Bach-Man,
Is there any thought of introducing some European models for On30? I think in particular, to U.S. Army 60cm Gauge Railway locos (steam or gas mechanical) and rolling stock used in the First World War in France!
These locos and rolling stock were used of course at the end of the First World War In France (1917-1918) but not only!
Immediately after the armistice, the light railways were sold or given to the French and used to help in reconstruction…
They were used too by the U.S. army post-war, in different camps for example, at fort Benning (Georgia); fort Dix (New Jersey); fort Humphrey (Virginia), etc.
Locomotives and rolling stock were used too in domestic use post-war…in the U.S. and around the world like France (of course!); Brazil; Egypt; India; Australia…
Some locos and rolling stock are preserved in France by the APPEVA :
http://appeva.club.fr/index_e.htm
and in England by the LEIGHTON BUZZARD RAILWAY :
http://www.buzzrail.co.uk/)...
For more informations, look after the book : "Narrow Gauge To No Man's Land" By Rich Dunn, Benchmark…
Franck Tavernier,
Athies, France.
For a while now I have thought that the WW1 2-6-2t locomotive could be a good choice for Bachmann to make. They were first built by ALCO for the Briish Army. After the USA emtered the war in 1917 boadly similar 2-6-2ts were built by Baldwin (who had previously built a 4-6-0t for the British), Davenport and Porter. So USA army, British Army and post war versions could be made. There is a, somewat modified, ALCO 2-6-2t preserved at the Ffestiniog railway in Wales.
Some WW1 locomotives were regauged after the war, including to 30 inch. I am not sure if this applied to any 2-6-2t, but for a freelance line a regaged WW1 loco is (to me at least) plausible (and this could also be to 3 foot or metre gauge).
A good site for further information on the WW1 railways is http://www.wdlr.org.uk/WDLR/ (http://www.wdlr.org.uk/WDLR/)
Hamish
Dear Franck,
Actually, Mr. Riley and I have discussed these locos and cars regularly. We'll continue the discussion...
Have fun!
the Bach-man
What about that pocket size stem shovel that was used at Ft.Benning.
Royce Wilson
Hamish,
Yes ! The 2-6-2t steam loco would be a good choice, and after why not an ALCO ...The loco preserved at the Ffestiniog railway in Wales is modified loco, but there is an original sample of the ALCO 2-6-2t in France at the APPEVA railway!
The Baldwin 50 HP gas mechanical would be too a nice choice, there are differents models preserved in France and in England...
Hey Mr Bach-Man, the ball's in your court :) ;)
Quote from: the Bach-man on March 30, 2008, 11:41:50 PM
Dear Franck,
Actually, Mr. Riley and I have discussed these locos and cars regularly. We'll continue the discussion...
Have fun!
the Bach-man
Good News!
Don't forget, it's supply which create demand :) ;) It's what made the success of On30 here and in Europe!
on youtube there is a silent film posted that looks like a quartermaster training film for the soldier railroaders at Ft.Benning,GA. plenty shots of the 2ft gauge 2-6-2t in action. there is also engine facilites shots with all the engines steamed up!..thats neat! ;)
Royce Wilson
Count me in if the next loco is a 2-6-2 tank - but preferable the one made by Baldwin and used on the Victorian Puffing Billy society line.
Don't spose I could hope for a matching o/f 2-6-0 + 0-6-2 Garratt - like G42? :)
Steve Magee
Some of the WW1 2-6-2t's were made by Baldwin - but the Puffing Billy locomotives are considerably larger than the WW1 locos, and outside framed.
Living in Australia I would love to see a Puffing Billy loco - but I expect that the WW1 2-6-2t is more likely. As it can represent an American Army loco it could expect to have reasonable sales in the USA, as well as in Britain and other places where these turned up. The military association might help sales. At least one (Baldwin) WW1 2-6-2t operated in Australia post war, at the Fairymead sugar mill in Queensland. That loco is now in France.
I don't think the differences between the different makers of the American WW1 2-6-2t's were marked, the basic mouldings should do for different versions.
The Puffing Billy locos are typical American locos, but are not well known in the USA. Australian sales would be high (thanks mainly to Bachmann, ON30 is probably the most popular narrow gauge scale in Australia) but I doubt that the Australiian market is large enough for Bachmann to aim a locomotice at it.
As for the Garratt - again I would love it but can't see Bachmann making it. Outside of Australia would it have many sales? While Garratts were widespread none went to the USA or Canada and I think the Victorian locos were the only narrow gauge outside framed 2-6-0+0-6-2 versions.
Hamish
FWIW, the Lost River RR out in West Virigina acquired surplus WWI locos and equipment for its logging line out of Wardensville, WV. It connected there with the Winchester and Wardensville RR (now the Winchester and Western, running only to Gore, VA).
Hi Bach-man
This is my first post to the Bachmann Message Board as up until a few minutes ago I had always read the messages as a "Guest". ::)
I too would like to support some models of WW1 60 cm gauge equipment. Besides the 2-6-2T's built by the likes of Davenport, Alco and Baldwin, there were 495 Baldwin built 4-6-0T's as well as various gas-mechanicals. Many ex-WD locomotives found their way into industrial use after the War. They were used in France (sugar beet railways), UK, USA (Fort Benning and other locations) and even Australia (Queensland sugar industry). We had one Baldwin 2-6-2T (later converted to an 0-6-2T), now in France and three Baldwin 4-6-0T's. One of these survives as a 4-6-0 at a Gold Coast theme park.
Regards
curator49
I forgot ::) ::) :-\ :-\, you can find in France, two original ALCO 2-6-2t, one preserved at the APPEVA and one at the AMTP :
http://assoc.pagespro-orange.fr/amtp45/gb.html
2-6-2t were built too by Vulcan with some changes...
Ft.Benning,GA had one of those engines does anyone know if it is still there?
;DRoyce Wilson
Hey Royce,
It was as of last summer.Here is link with photo and info. The used during construction of Camp Bragg also.
http://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomotive.cfm?Display=369
Alan Ashworth
Quote from: curator49 on April 02, 2008, 04:53:08 PM
....now in France and three Baldwin 4-6-0T's. One of these survives as a 4-6-0 at a Gold Coast theme park.
Regards
curator49
Where are the two others preserved Baldwin 4-6-0t?
Franck.
Franck
I think you have misunderstood curtor 49's message. I read his message to mean that 3 Baldwin 4-6-0ts came to Australia, of which one survives. I don't think he meant that all 3 survive. As far as I know the situation is that only the Baldwin 4-6-0t at Dreamworld, unfortunately converted to a 4-6-0, survives.
Hamish
Hamish,
Thanks for your answer!
To my Knowledge, the loco preserved in France from Austalia, is a Baldwin 2-6-2t n° 46 828, and named "Felin Hen" converted to an 0-6-2t during his long career...This loco is preserved at the Tacot des Lacs in France :
http://tacotdeslacs.free.fr/index.html
The project is to restore it, to an 2-6-2t!
About the 4-6-0t, I know only one model restored in England at the Leigthon Buzzard railway, this loco came from India and was named "Lion"...
According to a friend, there is also a project to restore the Baldwin 4-6-0t preserved at the Imperial War Museum. This loco came from India and was named "Tiger"....
Franck
The Baldwin 4-6-0t being restored for the Imperial War museum, at one stage named tiger, is at the Welsh Highland Railway (Porthmadog) See http://www.whr.co.uk/s/stock/794
Hamish
Id really like one of thoughs 4-6-0's. As the one in steam is not that far from me.
I think it would be a great model for Bachmann to make as it has a big market as they were alot of these all over the world. You could do them in many liveries even including red like 590 that was on the Welsh Highland Railway. Bachmann could easerly do the two differnt cab styles that were made. One with a coverd bunker and one without.
This would be a really good idea for Bachmann to make one as they have never made a tank engine before (the forney doesnt count as its doesnt have tanks. But a bigger bunker instaid).
Of the three Baldwin 4-6-0T's that came to Queensland for the sugar industry two, that had worked at Marian Mill, Mackay, were scrapped and the third lay derelict for many years at Racecourse Mill, Mackay before being purchased for preservation. It was subsequently rebuilt as a tender loco and works at a Gold Coast theme park.
The 2-6-2T Baldwin came to Fairymead Mill, Bundaberg from the Penrhyn Quarry, Wales where it had been named "Felin Hen" It was converted to an 0-6-2T about 1954 at Fairymead. The story is that the leading wheelset was used to convert a John Fowler 0-4-0T at the nearby Millaquin Mill into an 0-4-2T.
Curator49
The link I posted to the Baldwin 4-6-0t at the WHR(P) appears not to be working (it did when I posted it), the following worked for me a minute ago http://www2.whr.co.uk/s/stock/794 (http://www2.whr.co.uk/s/stock/794)
Personally I would be happy with any of the WW1 narrow gauge steam locomotives - I suggested the 2-6-2t as this version was the one chosen by the USA when she entered the war in 1917 and thus I thought this version would have more appeal to Americans and therefore the version Bachmann would be most likely to maket. As far as I know the Baldwin 4-6-0ts, although made in the USA, were not operated by the USA army or operated in America after the war. Living in Australia my freelance line would have bought any version as long as the price was right!
In fact the most common WW1 loco to come to Australia was the Hunslet version of the 4-6-0t, so this would be the most likely one for my line. However as this is very much a British outline locomotive I do not expect Bachmann to make it.
Hamish
So what is this 2-6-2t you speek of? Sounds interesting.
Max
It is the 2-6-2t already mentioned in earlier posts on this thread by myself, Franck, Royce, Tarheelrrds and Curator 49. They were originally built by ALCO for the British Army, later Baldwin, Davenport and Vulcan built very similar (though not necessrily identical) locos for the US army. The ones at Fort Benning and in the video mentioned by Royce are examples.
Hamish
Hamish,
Thanks for sharing! I would be happy too with any of the WW1 narrow gauge steam loco and 2-6-2t would be a good choice for Bachmann...
I expect too Bachmann make a Baldwin 50 HP gas mechanical one day ;) ;D ;D
Sorry Hamish, I wasnt paying attention. So basicly the engine has the same body as the 4-6-0 but is a 2-6-2 instaid.
http://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomotive.cfm?Display=369 (http://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomotive.cfm?Display=369)
So that means I should be easy to convert. Maybe using the Henry chassis like the 2-6-0 convertion.
Im happy with that. Ill have two then. ;D
I agree that the WW1 engines would be a good choice - since they were widely distributed after the war. I always liked the Pechot-Bourdon as a smaller relative of the
Garratt - such as the Tazmanian K-1 (I always considered using a couple of the smooth running Porter 0-4-2s as the basis for a Garratt). Many of us would appreciate an approximation of any of these engines. It would interesting the see how well a universal "kit" loco would sell. The current 2-8-0 has enough spare parts packed in teh box to create some completely different looking engines - I know that drove me to have to have more than one. Spare parts to change the appearance or the availablity of alternate parts to purchase combined with rub-on lettering or decals nay just allow Bachmann to profitably enter the lower volume market for us small layout niche modellers.
Recently the BBC series "WW1" was rebroadcast on cable. One episode featured lots of pictures of the 60 cm gauge trians in action. Those trains got a lot of work - just feeding all the horses required trainloads of fodder.
A couple of those little engines would be a great addition to the Bachmann On30 Line.
I once saw a model of one of these engines at a train show and it was a very intresting size.
if Bachmann produces this prototype I hope they have the foresight to manufacture it where it can be narrowed to On20.
Royce Wilson
There were two sides to this too aferall. I already have (Roco and Bemo) HF110C and HF130C models in H0e, not sure if the same have been made in Oe/On30 by any model makers?
Henke in Germany makes a HF 110C in Oe/On30...not cheap, though!
Cheers NB
Hi Bachmann ? mr Riley
after reading the posts on this subject with which I agree
its time that Mr Riley and your self encouraged the broadening of the 0n30 range to ijntroduvce some more "internztional " items such has occured in the other Bachmann ranges such as in England and Germany not to mention China
there is in England a very strong following for O 16.5 or On 30 as its called on your side of the pond
Ragards to all
Brian
Chichester U K
Some suggestions...
China: C2 or C4 0-8-0 - the C2 would also please the Eastern European/Russian fans as they are copies of locos delivered to that part of the world;
Germany/Austria: Hey, what about carrying on from where Fleischmann Magic Train stopped?? A U-class 0-6-2T (cheaper than Henke's, please!!!), bogie (double-trucked) coaches and freight cars, some modern equipment, maybe even a 99-series 30" 2-10-2T???
UK: Welshpool & Llanfair equipment; my vote for a loco goes to the Sierra Leone Hunslet 2-6-2T, this is a loco which could have been sent to all over the world...
Cheers NB
Quote from: Nick_Burman on April 22, 2008, 11:08:23 AM
Some suggestions...
China: C2 or C4 0-8-0 - the C2 would also please the Eastern European/Russian fans as they are copies of locos delivered to that part of the world;
Germany/Austria: Hey, what about carrying on from where Fleischmann Magic Train stopped?? A U-class 0-6-2T (cheaper than Henke's, please!!!), bogie (double-trucked) coaches and freight cars, some modern equipment, maybe even a 99-series 30" 2-10-2T???
Cheers NB
Offered the C2 years ago on the old forum, when I had drawings of it and its Russian Pt-4 counterpart...could lup the Px48 in this lot also? These classes numbered in the thousands and were built in many countries, including for reparations.
Bachmann already have a U class, in H0e through Liliput. I have three here.
The problem here may be market share as H0e has more of a following.
Hi guy's,
Announcing...
Frank Pearsall will be at Narrow track 08, Brevard, North Carolina, on Friday and Saturday, October 10 and 11, as "60cm narrow gauge U.S. Army railroad in WW I" clinic presenter!
Convention hours are:
Friday, October 10, 2008â€"2 p.m. to 9:30 p.m.
Saturday, October 11, 2008â€"8:30 a.m. to 9:30 p.m.
;)
I believe that the British specified the 4-6-0T configuration for the trench locos supplied to the Brit Army for use in France.
The US Army used 2-6-2Ts in France and Army bases in the States. Have seen a photo of a Baldwin pulling a Passenger train in Oahu in 1929.
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa1/damsonskin/WW1trench.jpg)
From memory the main difference between Alco and Baldwin locos was at front deck. The Baldwin had a plate front beam where the Alco had a rectangular box girder,and the side tanks extended forward of the smokebox.
A couple of years ago on some group, there was a post from an ex-serviceman who saw a (polished) Baldwin still in steam decades after WW1 at a US Army depot. Seems that it was the COs "Pet".
Eric UK
Looks like a wealth of potential modeling subjects--great topic. gj
I second the request for UK or European outline trains. I think there would be a strong demand worldwide, and Bachmann would virtually have the market to itself. It's obvious that Fleischmann is just going to let it's Oe line die out, even if Fleischmann survives.
Quote from: HarryHotspur on June 04, 2008, 07:37:46 PM
I second the request for UK or European outline trains. I think there would be a strong demand worldwide, and Bachmann would virtually have the market to itself. It's obvious that Fleischmann is just going to let it's Oe line die out, even if Fleischmann survives.
Fleischmann has recently been bought by ROCO, or more accurately the holding company that owns ROCO. It remains to be seen what the new owners will do with Fleischmann's Oe line (or the other Fleischmann products for that matter).
Bachmann has its own German and UK companies. Making UK or european outline O narrow gauge would, I presume, be up to these companies. I would love to see it, but the Bach Man, and this board, only relates to the American arm of Bachmann, Bachmann Industries. I can't see american Bachmann making non-american outline locos (although they occasionally import foreign items made by other braches of Bachmann, e.g. the Chinese SY Mikados made by Bachmann China). Of course Bachmann quite popular in some overseas countries, so there is scope for making american outline locos that have a particular appeal overseas as well as in America. The WW1 american locos are an example of this.
Hamish
Hello All,
I would like to add my contribution.
The idea of a 2-6-2 T and a 4-6-0 T from Alco and from Baldwin will be very interesting for French modellers (I'm a French 0n30 and Oe16.5 modeller). In France, we had a lot and a lot of locomotives as these ones which stayed in France after the WWI. They used them very often for industrial railways (for example : sugar-beet industry).
I model an industrial 60 cm gauge French narrow gauge railway in O scale who's name is "Le chemin de fer de Vis-en-Artois" ( see : www.jackymolinaro.com (http://www.jackymolinaro.com) ) and I had built a 2-6-2 T from Baldwin with the inside frames : it's the easiest to do. I'm building a 4-6-0 T Baldwin. And I would like to build a 2-6-2 T from Alco just after.
I would like Bachmann will release all these locomotives. There is a lot of interest for French narrow gauge modellers !
The Vis-en-Artois railway had 30 4-6-0 T in the fifties !!!
PLEASE MR BACHMANN : MAKE THE BALDWIN FOR US :)
Here are two photographs of my work.
All the Best,
JJM-0n30 (France)
The 2-6-2 T on my layout :
(http://i47.servimg.com/u/f47/11/97/54/34/2-6-2_10.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=27&u=11975434)
And the 4-6-0 is made with a heavy modified 0-6-0 T HO scale Bachmann chassis !
(http://i47.servimg.com/u/f47/11/97/54/34/4-6-0_10.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=28&u=11975434)
Superb modelling JJM!
Hamish
Dear JJM,
Very, very nice!
Keep on Trackin',
the Bach-man
Hello all,
this is the last photograph of my scratchbuilt 4-6-0 T (with the help of a Bachmann 0-6-0 ST in HO scale deeply modified).
(http://i57.servimg.com/u/f57/11/97/54/34/230t_b10.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=32&u=11975434)
Please Mr Bachmann : make a model of this loco in 0n30 for us !!!
Jacky
Nice job Jacky, Congratulations!!
That's looks great, Jacky! And thanks for reviving this thread. I had recalled discussions of 2-6-2T's in military service. As I'd like to see Bachmann create a 2-6-2T model, I hope they see the possibilities out there so that they can get a lot of mileage out of their investment.
Mark
Hello all,
on the 8th and 9th of November, in Vis-en-Artois (North of France) has took place an intersting exhibition about the "Chemin de fer à voie de 60 de Vis-en-Artois" (literaly : "the 60 cm gauge railway of Vis-en-Artois).
Vis-en-Artois was the centerplace of a large industrial system where we could find at least three 2-6-2T Alco and thirty 4-6-0T from Baldwin. There was about 700 wagons all from English War Department and Pershing from USA. A very interesting layout which ran from 1926 to 1957.
This subject is very interesting and well known for French and English people.
So, Mr Bachmann - make a 4-6-0T and a 2-6-2T please. We have a lot to do to model this railway !
The exhibition report can be see on my website on the report page at : www.jackymolinaro.com / report / Vis-en-Artois ...
These were neat locomotives.Ther several that survived until the 50's here in the south.Some were used as logging locomotives and as construction locos. Here is a video of them working at Ft Benning GA where one is still on display.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BTtncKnS9k
Loco at Ft Benning
http://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomotive.cfm?Display=369
ALan Ashworth
Hello all,
In France, in 1954, at the Vis-en-Artois system (sugarbeet industrial railway located in the North of France) a 4-6-0T Baldwin was modified into a "modern" diesel locomotive by the workshops of Vis-en-Artois themselves.
Here is a photograph of the first modified Baldwin : (official document of 1954)
At the backscene, we can see two of the 30 Baldwin of the company.
(http://i77.servimg.com/u/f77/11/97/54/34/chassi10.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=36&u=11975434)
I have modeled this locomotive in zero scale for my layout : (the photo was shooted on a friend's layout).
(http://i47.servimg.com/u/f47/11/97/54/34/jm-17211.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=14&u=11975434)
JJM
Hi Guy's,
Good News!
Benchmark Publications has reprinted Rich Dunn's Narrow Gauge to No Man's Land (US Army 60cm Gauge Railways of the First World War in France - With notes on 60cm gauge US Army railways in the USA).
(http://www.karensbooks.com/images/covers/15166_sm.jpg)
http://www.karensbooks.com/cgi-bin/shop/karenscart.cgi?func=buildProduct&product=908&back=javascript:history.go%28-1%29
Have fun,
Franck
And...Some photos of Jacky's layout, Vis-en-Artois :
(http://images110.fotki.com/v1582/photos/0/1222910/7997474/IMG_1150-vi.jpg)
(http://images53.fotki.com/v1574/photos/0/1222910/7997474/IMG_1141-vi.jpg)
(http://images43.fotki.com/v398/photos/0/1222910/7997474/IMG_1143-vi.jpg)
(http://images50.fotki.com/v395/photos/0/1222910/7997474/IMG_1144-vi.jpg)
(http://images50.fotki.com/v399/photos/0/1222910/7997474/IMG_1146-vi.jpg)
(http://images46.fotki.com/v400/photos/0/1222910/7997474/IMG_1147-vi.jpg)
(http://images110.fotki.com/v1582/photos/0/1222910/7997474/IMG_1149-vi.jpg)
(http://images110.fotki.com/v1582/photos/0/1222910/7997474/IMG_1151-vi.jpg)
(http://images50.fotki.com/v392/photos/0/1222910/7997474/IMG_1158-vi.jpg)
(http://images53.fotki.com/v1578/photos/0/1222910/7997474/IMG_1154-vi.jpg)
(http://images51.fotki.com/v751/photos/0/1222910/7997474/IMG_1157-vi.jpg)
(http://images46.fotki.com/v400/photos/0/1222910/7997474/IMG_1167-vi.jpg)
(http://images36.fotki.com/v1175/photos/0/1222910/7997474/IMG_1159-vi.jpg)
(http://images50.fotki.com/v397/photos/0/1222910/7997474/IMG_1161-vi.jpg)
(http://images53.fotki.com/v1578/photos/0/1222910/7997474/IMG_1164-vi.jpg)
(http://images34.fotki.com/v1147/photos/0/1222910/7997474/IMG_1169-vi.jpg)
(http://images50.fotki.com/v406/photos/0/1222910/7997474/IMG_1177-vi.jpg)
(http://images51.fotki.com/v730/photos/0/1222910/7997474/IMG_1178-vi.jpg)
Enjoy!
Franck
Merci Franck pour ces superbes photos.
A couple of points--
Notice that the loco on display at Ft.Benning was built by Davenport. Some were also built by ALCO. If you study the head-on pics of the models you can see slight differences.
The 'standard' loco was a 2-6-2T; the 4-6-0Ts were built to UK War Dept. specs. who preferred this wheel configuration for some reason.
Think that most of the locos used postwar in the States were ones that had not been shipped to Europe by the end of the war.
The 1940 video shows an Instructor with a class of trainee engineers; some of them may have ended up at the US Army Loco depot in South Wales UK where locos were prepared for service on the Continent after D-Day.
Eric UK
Quote from: renniks on October 28, 2009, 06:17:34 AM
.
The 'standard' loco was a 2-6-2T; the 4-6-0Ts were built to UK War Dept. specs. who preferred this wheel configuration for some reason.
Eric UK
As I understand it the Hunslett and Baldwin 4-6-0ts were made from 1916, before the 2-6-2ts were introduced. Baldwin got into the act as Hunslett couldn't produce enough locos quickly. ALCO then produced a batch of 2-6-2ts for the British and French, and, after the USA entered the war in 1917 the 2-6-2 design was adopted as the standard design for the USA army, but not for other combatants. The USA had the advantage of being able to learn from the experience of the earlier designs made before the USA entered the war.
The most common German design was the 0-8-0t Brigadelok.
Irrespective of the particular design these WW1 locos are fascinating and I would love to see Bachmann make one
The photos posted by Franck are wonderful and Jacky's modelling is superb!
Hamish
Quote from: Hamish K on October 28, 2009, 09:22:53 AM
The photos posted by Franck are wonderful and Jacky's modelling is superb!
Hamish
Hamish thanks for the kind words! ;)
I Hope too, to see Bachmann make one, one day soon ;D ;D
Franck
Hello all,
thank you Franck : your photos are very good !
Thank you Hamish !