I am getting to the point where I think a booster will be necessary for my layout. What do you fine train-folk think of the boosters offered by CVP? A 5A system for less than $100 sounds good. But will it work with my EZ Command?
It should work with your EZcommand and the price is reasonable. I ,myself just increased the power supply with a Digitrax 5 amp power supply that was given to me. A larger power supply should cost less than a booster.
Don 8)
So Grumpy,
You are saying that I can just put in a larger capacity power supply in place of the wall wart that I got from Bachmann?
Others have said that if you input the EZ Command with any power supply other than the one supplied, you do so at your own risk, and I was also told the internal breaker is rated at 1.5 amps. Enough said.
The units offered by CVP appear to be true boosters, not just a larger power supply for the command station. You will notice the command station is hooked up to the booster, and only the booster is connected to the track. In other words it boosts the power from the command station. The command station is powered by its own supply as usual. I assume the booster has proper input receptacles to connect the command station output to it.
I downloaded the instructions and price list from CVP. It is a 7 amp system and requires a separate power supply, so the total cost for the single would be more like $150. I didn't see a 5 amp booster for less than $100. What is the model?
The dual system has an automatic reverse loop module built into the unit. I only did a quick read, so it may have many other nice features.
We have been advised in this forum that the EZ Command will power from 3 to 5 non sound locos without using a booster. With my small layout that is sufficient for my needs. I can't see a single operator running more than 2 or 3 locos at one time on a small layout.
My only comment is, if the units do what they say, then the price seems reasonable compared to other models on the market.
Bob
My bad, Yampa Bob. I did not realize that a separate power supply for the booster was required. A booster can not be had for under $100.
I'll study it more later. I didn't see any note in the spec sheet that the power supply was included, but the one they recommend costs $55. Another case of "batteries not included", but it is still a very good price overall.
Maybe they assume one already has a suitable supply, but most companies prefer to use their own. They should just make it as a package, as it is a bit misleading.
Bob
CVP Products makes excellent DCC products and I know of no reason to prevent their ZoneMaster Boosters use with the E-Z Command Control Center unit. Download the brochure and instruction manual and carefully read about the ZoneMaster Boosters. http://www.cvpusa.com
The power supply provided with the E-Z Command Control Center (Bachmann’s command station) is compatible with the circuitry and electrical components in the command station. Bachmann list the power rating of the system as 1.5 amps.
If you add a more powerful power supply as grumpy has done, you are potently creating a hazard and are dependant on the overload protection in the command station. You do not know how robust the overload protection is. The E-Z Command Control Center can not sustain a current draw anything close to 5 amps.
I recommend: Never use a power supply (transformer) with any DCC system component that is not rating compatible.
Here is what Bachmann recommends,
"The E-Z Command Control System is rated at 1.5 amps. You should use the transformer supplied with the unit. If you need additional power then you should connect your E-Z Command to a more powerful DCC booster for more power."
If hunt garantees the zonemaster with the ez command its gospel and go for it you see. Hes been posting excellent advice along time on here and if there was a problem with that he would know it. Meter your connections for a while and it should be fine and so forth. Yampa bob you may want to leave the driving to greyhound and yield your time to hunt on this with do respect since your only a model trainer for a short time and hunts been at it and advice way longer. Thanks.
Hunt: Somewhere on another forum I read that pigs don't fly and I could assume this to be true because nobody has ever seen a pig fly . I was watching a tv commercial some time ago and as part of the commercial they showed a pig flying . Pigs must fly ,the supplier said they do and to prove it they showed me a pig flying yet I have not personally seen a pig fly. I do not personally suggest that everyone should add a bigger power supply rather than a booster but it works for me. The price of another
ez command is about $80.00. The price of Bachman's booster is about $200.00. I wonder how many boosters Bachman has sold as a result of people being told that EZcommand is only fused for 1.5 amp which doesn.t make sense in the light of how many locos we have been told have been run by some modelers on EZ command.
How many people bought Pintos and Corvairs based on advertising and a sharp salesman until Ralph Nader showed up. I am not suggesting that Bachman is try to deceive us but it is good to question now and then, it helps to keep things straight.
Don ???
Quote from: CHUG on April 25, 2008, 09:45:02 PM
If hunt garantees the zonemaster with the ez command its gospel and go for it you see. Hes been posting excellent advice along time on here and if there was a problem with that he would know it. Meter your connections for a while and it should be fine and so forth. Yampa bob you may want to leave the driving to greyhound and yield your time to hunt on this with do respect since your only a model trainer for a short time and hunts been at it and advice way longer. Thanks.
CHUG, I did not see Bob’s reply before I posted my replied. What Bob wrote in this thread is okay.
When Bob first started to post on this board as Yampa Bob his desire to help got ahead of his knowledge and lead to some stuff I suppose based on assumptions and misunderstands. In a few posts, erroneous information he provided was corrected by Jim Banner, me and others. I don’t read everything he posts but the little I have read lately he seems to have put in some effort to get his facts right. My point --- anyone who has relevant factual information should be allowed to provide it.
Quote from: grumpy on April 25, 2008, 10:22:25 PM
Hunt: Somewhere on another forum I read that pigs don't fly and I could assume this to be true because nobody has ever seen a pig fly . I was watching a tv commercial some time ago and as part of the commercial they showed a pig flying . Pigs must fly ,the supplier said they do and to prove it they showed me a pig flying yet I have not personally seen a pig fly. I do not personally suggest that everyone should add a bigger power supply rather than a booster but it works for me. The price of another
ez command is about $80.00. The price of Bachman's booster is about $200.00. I wonder how many boosters Bachman has sold as a result of people being told that EZcommand is only fused for 1.5 amp which doesn.t make sense in the light of how many locos we have been told have been run by some modelers on EZ command.
How many people bought Pintos and Corvairs based on advertising and a sharp salesman until Ralph Nader showed up. I am not suggesting that Bachman is try to deceive us but it is good to question now and then, it helps to keep things straight.
Don ???
Don,
Your logic supported by a flying pig is without merit!
Now get real... What is the sustained amps you are drawing with maximum number of locomotives you have on track drawing power? You are doing it, so you know it is not more than the overload protection in the command station you have but is just above the power the Bachmann supplied transformer would deliver.
You should be concerned with someone adding a transformer based on your "I do it" and ruining their command station and something else. Your solution is a potential hazard waiting to happen.
How would you know Chug? You were only born yesterday, at least you act like it.
I don't mind being corrected if I am wrong, and always admit it when showed the facts. What I do mind is for a brown nose troll to evaluate my electronic experience and education, or my contributions to this forum.
I don't post anything that I can't back up with facts. My response to Paul's question was right on, based solely on information at the website.
The electronics of model railroading is very small compared to the vast expanse of digital technology. I have implemented digital packets for radio/gps for tracking emergency responders for many years and NIMS certified, so my longevity as a railroader is irrelevant.
In a typical clubhouse, idiotic innuendos and ridicule would not be allowed. Perhaps Mr Bachman should evaluate the membership of trolls who contribute nothing worthwhile to this forum.
Yampa Bob
yampa bob you took a wrong take on my words you see. No intent to diminish your interest, enthusiasm or contribution to the forum. Simple fact is hunt is a gold standard in this forum. If i needed advice on optics for spaceships or littleton trivia id ask you and so forth. Thanks
Hunt
Why should I be concerned . According to you my logic has no merit
and therefore no one will listen to me .I would like to know what tragic results will occur. If you put 4 locos with DCC in a consist you have exceeded the fused limit of 1 .50 amp which is supposed to be the fused limit of EZcommand (4 x .50 = 2.00 ) . We have had many claims of people exceeding this on this forum. The assumption I have made here is that .50 amp is fairly typical of a train with a load on DCC . If you drop the no . of units to three ; depending on loco and dcc decoder the 1.2 amps they may typicaly draw is just on the edge of the 1.amp power supply and below the so called 1.5 amp fused limit.
I have seen peop;le on this forum claim to have run 8 and 10 locos which you definitely can't do.
If you add sound to the equation you can only run 1 loco with no consist.
If you want to run 2 locos with dcc and sound you either have to buy a booster or bigger power supply. The cost of the power supply being free
and the booster being $200.00 I opted for the bigger power booster,and it worked and so I passed the information on.I originally put this in one of the threads a few months ago and asked Bachman to comment - no comment then or now. If Bachman was considering that I was giving out bad informayion I am sure they would have spoke up by now.
Hunt , a thought just occured to me ; are you in fact speaking for Bachman on this thread to discourage my input to the thread. I would like to see you discontinue expressing your opinions as fact . You have opinions as I have and you are entitled to express them as opinions The facts that I have expressed here I arrived at by experimentation. In my experimentation I have blown nothing up ;in fact nothing got hot. My locos are still running fine and so is my EZcommand.
I passed this information on and that is it .
Don >:(
I meant to say power supply and not power booster . Sorry for the error.
Don
Don,
I usually ignore spin and baiting but three things for others reading this thread.
1. As I have said before, I don’t speak for Bachmann or the Bach-man.
2. You should have already noticed the Bach-man rarely replies to a post with which he may disagree.
3. It is said, "A word to the wise is sufficient."
To that I will add… A word to the wise is sufficient but others are on their own. ;)
Bachmann’s recommendation I stated was already on their website about the use of a larger power supply with the E-Z Command Control Center unit when you first posted your experience using a more powerful power supply than provided by Bachmann.
Key caveat --- Others can expect the same results you have had using a more powerful power supply only if all the principal technical parameters are the same as you have or are compatible with the electronics of the E-Z Command Control Center unit.
One key technical parameter is known based on your representation. You have not yet exceeded the overload protection of the E-Z Command Control Center unit. Two key things that are not known are how robust is the unit’s overload protection and the maximum draw you are actually using.
There has been and still is a great deal of misunderstanding about overloads in electronic gear. Perhaps some explanation is in order.
Back in the old days when we controlled our trains with simple power packs, all the designer had to worry about was having a circuit breaker that would open before the transformer burned out. As long as the current rating of the transformer was higher than the current rating of the circuit breaker everything was okay, right? Well, not really. If the transformer could heat up faster than the circuit breaker could trip, a sudden short circuit could destroy the transformer anyway. Or if high ambient temperatures decreased the transformer's current rating more than it decreased the circuit breaker holding current, then again the transformer could burn out before the circuit breaker tripped. The designer was faced with matching the circuit breaker with the transformer over a wide range of conditions, and still sometimes we managed to operate our power packs outside the safe area and our power packs still sometimes failed.
Introduce electronic components and there are a raft of new ways that things can fail. They are mostly related to heat, but not always heat that you can feel. Transistors, which we use to control the output currents of all command control boosters, fail if their internal temperatures exceed about 150 degrees Celsius. But how their internal temperature relates to external conditions is what keeps electronic designers awake at nights. There is the obvious heating from prolonged power dissipation by the transistors. Just how much power the transistors can dissipate depends on their external temperature which in turn depends on the efficiency of heat removal and on ambient temperatures. The designer usually limits this type of internal heating by monitoring the temperatures of the transistors using thermistors or other temperature sensing devices. The closer the designer pushes the transistors to their limits, the smaller the transistors and heat sinks he can use and the cheaper (and more competitive) the final product becomes. And, unfortunately, the greater the chance that exceeding the specifications of the device, even by a small amount, will lead to permanent failure.
Then there is the not so obvious internal heating of transistors that occurs when the maximum current rating is exceeded. Exceed this maximum allowed current, even for a very brief time, and overheating occurs at microscopic levels inside the transistor. If this happens enough times, the transistor fails and the device along with it. External thermal monitoring will NOT control this type of internal overheating and failure. So other schemes have to be used. Excessive current can be controlled by adding a bunch more electronic components. However, the designer can minimize the number of extra components required and make the device more competitive by using an under sized power supply. Then the internal impedance of the power supply helps prevent excessive current flow when a fault occurs.
When considering the device under discussion, namely E-Z Command, we see two things when we examine its wall wart power supply. The most obvious thing we see is that the output is rated at 1000 milliamps (1 amp) which makes it somewhat under size compared to the 1.5 amp rated output of the command station. Less obvious is that the wall wart contains what appears to be a temperature sensitive resistor (thermistor.) I suspect this thermistor decreases the wall wart's output when it temperature rises from increased ambient temperature and/or from continued over load. Ultimately, this thermistor should act as a fuse by burning out if the over load condition exists for too long, for example, if the overload protection circuitry in the device fails.
What this suggests is that the E-Z Command relies on the characteristics of the wall wart provided with it for continued safe, proper operation. My personal recommendation is to NOT use any substitute, but if you insist, make sure the substitute has electronic current limiting to protect the E-Z Command or at least is fused at not more than 1.5 amps to protect the user when the E-Z Command current limiting circuitry fails.
And for the record, yes I am an electronics designer and have been designing power circuits, including model railroad control circuits, for more than forty years. Not bragging, not complaining, just stating the facts.
Hi Jim
Very well stated. Some problems do arise when the manufacturer over simplifies their instructions for electronic equipment. The manual for EZ Command is a masterpiece in clarity and brevity, a mere 8 pages.
Perhaps the manual should include a few "should nots". There are very few "NOTES", but there is one on page 4 that is interesting.
"NOTE: THE 1 AMP TRANSFORMER SUPPLIED WILL RUN TWO LOCOMOTIVES AT ANY ONE TIME. OPERATION OF MORE THAN TWO LOCOMOTIVES PER E-Z COMMAND CONTROLLER CAN AFFECT THEIR PERFORMANCE AND MAY REQUIRE ADDITIONAL POWER INPUT."
Now one could argue that they mean more power to the track, but we don't normally think of "track input", rather controller output. Perhaps the note should say: ..... "MAY REQUIRE THE CONTROLLER OUTPUT TO BE BOOSTED BY AN OPTIONAL ACCESSORY".
The average consumer will replace a failed OEM walwart with a factory unit if available, or they may look for a similar unit at an electronics store. Unfortunately most of these do not have thermal protection. The uninformed consumer might even end up with a DC charger for batteries, so they might also warn that only one with AC output should be used. The only hint is on page 2 where it says "16V AC IN".
Bob
I'll add this that if you add anything else to the system besides the 2 locos this will add to a burdened system. For instance, things that would tap off the 16 v AC such as lights for buildings and switch machines or more decoders that would control these items.
A good place to go would be Al gartner's site.
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/ (http://www.wiringfordcc.com/)
Quote from: Yampa Bob on April 27, 2008, 07:45:12 PM
Hi Jim
Very well stated. Some problems do arise when the manufacturer over simplifies their instructions for electronic equipment. The manual for EZ Command is a masterpiece in clarity and brevity, a mere 8 pages.
Perhaps the manual should include a few "should nots". There are very few "NOTES", but there is one on page 4 that is interesting.
"NOTE: THE 1 AMP TRANSFORMER SUPPLIED WILL RUN TWO LOCOMOTIVES AT ANY ONE TIME. OPERATION OF MORE THAN TWO LOCOMOTIVES PER E-Z COMMAND CONTROLLER CAN AFFECT THEIR PERFORMANCE AND MAY REQUIRE ADDITIONAL POWER INPUT."
Now one could argue that they mean more power to the track, but we don't normally think of "track input", rather controller output. Perhaps the note should say: ..... "MAY REQUIRE THE CONTROLLER OUTPUT TO BE BOOSTED BY AN OPTIONAL ACCESSORY".
The average consumer will replace a failed OEM walwart with a factory unit if available, or they may look for a similar unit at an electronics store. Unfortunately most of these do not have thermal protection. The uninformed consumer might even end up with a DC charger for batteries, so they might also warn that only one with AC output should be used. The only hint is on page 2 where it says "16V AC IN".
Bob
Bob,
Some history, the use of the word input at the end of the note on page 4 you bring up in the E-Z Command Setup and Programming Instructions was raised shortly after the product’s first availability. I raised it in background not in the online forum.
Bachmann clarified for all the issue when it made available the online E-Z Command ® Digital Command Control FAQ --- Specifically http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/newez/index.php?ezpage=4#properpower
It would be preferable, to me, if they would also modify the note on page 4 in the online E-Z Command Setup and Programming Instructions PDF.
How about you simply build your own booster and save some money (and arguements)...
the following boosters can be used on any brand system.
http://www.pdc.kth.se/~haba/slamra/dcc/booster/
includes thermal, signal and voltage protection
or
http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/HBridge.html
minidcc booster - very simple - less than 10 parts to wire up.
I looked at the mini boosters some time ago and felt that several of these, each powering its own power district, might be a better choice than one big booster and several circuit breakers. And cheaper, to boot. I see one seller on Ebay offering a pair of the LMD18200 ICs for $15 including delivery.
I have not tried this circuit out, but one conclusion I did come to was that you should use a separate power supply for each mini booster to limit the current in case of a shorted output. Otherwise, you would be relying on the IC's 10 amp internal current limiting which is enough to weld wheels and melt turnouts. This in turn would require connecting all the power supply negatives together to allow trains to cross the gaps between power districts. There is also a small possibility that you would have to fit the inputs with optical isolators in order to parallel them.
If you insist on a single, large power supply, you could try using a LM338 based 3 amp current limiter in series with each booster's positive power input. If this worked, and I suspect it would, the negative power inputs would automatically be tied together and optical isolators would definitely not be required.
Hi Jim, CVPusa is selling a Booster3 for 50$ or something. Is it worthwile looking into it? I do not need anything more than 3A as i have a small layout and i don''t want to spend 150$ for the bigger boosters like Bachmann or MRC etc. Thanks.
Just build your own booster, it is pretty much just an H-bridge. 8)
Matt
It doesn't hurt to have a little extra horsepower in case you expand. The single booster sells for $79, but it requires the power supply at $55. That's still reasonable. I would probably spend the extra $10 to get the single with reverse loop feature.
I ordered the power supply as I needed 24 volts to bench test solar pumps. Their peak draw is 4 amps so the pack is perfect. The adjustable output is a nice feature.
Prices of boosters will drop as more are produced. I remember my first calculator was $150, now you can buy a nice one for $5.
Bob
Bob
Have you looked at the possibility of building a booster as per the posting of GCDORI. Is it a reasonable answer to the cost of purchased boosters.
Don
Frankly I haven't considered building one. I spent all my life building things just to save money. I intend pampering myself for the remainder of my life.
You have to admit the Zonemaster is a very attractive unit for the money. The thing that impresses me most is the label on the front "Made in U.S.A.".
The brochure states the Zonemaster is compatible with almost all DCC systems. A compatibility list is needed on the site. There are several cautions listed, including compatibility to CVP3.
The EZ Command normally connects to any walk around Companions with a data cable. However the Zonemaster requires the data cable from the command station for input, and there is no restriction on the length of the cable. With this arrangement, the term "booster" is perhaps a misnomer, as the track power output of the command station isn't connected to anything.
This would also seem to preclude the use of a Companion.
At the present time any booster, including the Zonemaster, is a low priority for me, so please address your comments to the general membership. I'm just making observations. Do your own research and draw your own conclusions, I've already had sufficient admonishment regarding boosters.
Thanks
Bob
Bob
Thanks
Don
Don
You're welcome. :D
Bob
Did you try e-bay?
http://search.ebay.com/E-Z-Command-Booster_W0QQcatrefZC6QQfnuZ0QQfposZ60914QQfpos1Z60914QQfpos2Z60914QQfsooZ2QQfsopZ32QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQrprZ249QQsabfmtsZ1QQsacatZQ2d1QQsadisZ200QQsadis1Z100QQsadis2Z100QQsaobfmtsZinsifQQsargnZQ2d1QQsaslcZ2QQsatitleZEQ2dQ5AQ20CommandQ20BoosterQQsbrftogZ1QQsofocusZunknownQQxpufuZx
I think $100 is okay then.