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Discussion Boards => HO => Topic started by: charlii on June 28, 2008, 11:46:27 AM

Title: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: charlii on June 28, 2008, 11:46:27 AM
Couple photos of my scratch built Ma & Pa Clerestory passenger cars, less decals:

(Scratch built from basswood and brass from drawings by J. Harold Geissel)
At present I have built 10 Penn Green and 6 Tuscan Red in HO scale.
5 Penn Green and 5 Tuscan Red in N scale.

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc230/chuckaluick_photos/MAPaHOPassengerTuscanRed.jpg)

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc230/chuckaluick_photos/MaPaHOPassengerPennGreen.jpg)

Copy of drawings by J. Harold Geissel from 60's copy of Model Railroader

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc230/chuckaluick_photos/20a.jpg?t=1214764864)

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc230/chuckaluick_photos/20.jpg?t=1214765228)

HO scale Ma & Pa Baggage cars in process of being built, less truss rods, end rails, etc and decals.
I will post new photo's when completed.

Ma & Pa #35
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc230/chuckaluick_photos/BaggageCar35.jpg?t=1214769151)

Ma & Pa #44
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc230/chuckaluick_photos/BaggageCar44.jpg?t=1214769219)



Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: SteamGene on June 28, 2008, 12:53:15 PM
Nice job.
Gene
Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: Santa Fe buff on June 28, 2008, 03:51:16 PM
I went down the pictures and saw an N scale bobber!
Nice Work!
~Santa Fe
Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: Pacific Northern on June 28, 2008, 10:24:59 PM
Quote from: Santa Fe buff on June 28, 2008, 03:51:16 PM
I went down the pictures and saw an N scale bobber!
Nice Work!
~Santa Fe

Santa Fe
??

charlii

Excellent work
Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: Yampa Bob on June 29, 2008, 12:59:19 AM
Great looking cars!

How long are they, and what era do they represent?

Bob









Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: Atlantic Central on June 29, 2008, 09:43:02 AM
Bob,

To tell the short version of a long complex story, the Ma & Pa was formed in 1901. Some of the passenger equipment was aquired used - built in 1875 to 1890, but cars just like these models where bought new between 1902 and 1913. Coaches #11 thru #20 where built by A.C.F., Jackson and Sharp Works, Wilmington, Delaware.

One of them, car #20, is still in service on the Strasburg Rail Road today. Three of these coaches and several of baggage and baggage/mail cars served in regular service right to the end of operations in 1955, only #20 and baggage mail car #35 (B&O museum) were saved.

They where all 56'-4" long over the platforms, body length 50'. The curves and grades of the Ma & Pa would not have allowed anything longer.

Sheldon
Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: charlii on June 29, 2008, 09:53:06 AM
Quote from: Yampa Bob on June 29, 2008, 12:59:19 AM
Great looking cars!

How long are they, and what era do they represent?

Bob

Car length is 50', (coupler to coupler actual 56').
Era early 1900's, - 1955.
#20 went to Strasburg RR in 1958 where it is at present time.










Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: Yampa Bob on June 29, 2008, 11:39:32 AM
Sheldon and Charlii:

They would fit right into my roster of shorter coaches.

As you know, I am fascinated with these cars, but have a lot to learn about them so I have some more questions.

1. They appear to be wood sides, weren't the "woodies" banned at some time? I notice on my Roundhouse Overland sets, the coach has steel reinforcements on the sides.

2.  What was the seating capacity of each coach? (64 or 96) I was just going by the windows, 16.

3.  Were they generally classified as "Overlands" or did J&S have another name for them?

I particularly like the "Penn Green", would that look appropriate lettered as Denver & Rio Grande Western?

Charlii: You mentioned "scratch built", are they from kits or separate components from various sources?  With the demand for smaller coaches, you could probably sell these if you are so inclined. 

Also, I would like to have larger copies of the Geissel drawings,  if you can post them.

Thanks
Bob



Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: Atlantic Central on June 29, 2008, 01:59:34 PM
Bob,

They where never completely "banned", certianly not before 1955, but new construction of wood underframes was prohibited and interchange was later restricted. Not sure of the dates on that.

Many such cars had steel reinforced underframes when built or added latter, depending on the date of construction.

To most they are know as "Jackson & Sharp" cars, even cars built by other builders or railroad shops where to almost identical plans.

The "Overland" name is a SP/UP thing if I recall.

D&RGW cars where yellow.

I will look to see if I have the drawings, if so I will send you a set.

Sheldon
Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: Atlantic Central on June 29, 2008, 02:03:51 PM
Bob,

One more thing, I know there are lots of great tourist lines out west where you are, but if you are ever east you should make Strasburg a must see. Trains run every hour, every day, most of the year. All pulled by steam. In the busy summer season trains run every 1/2 hour and pass at siding. ONLY place left in America where a regularly scheduled steam train passes another regularly scheduled steam train!

Sheldon
Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: japasha on June 29, 2008, 08:10:54 PM
Sheldon is correct on visiting Strasburg. Even my wife was impressed and wanted a second trip. Across the road is the Pennsylvania State Railroad Museum and you can see at least one example from the Pennsylvania RR steam days. Plenty of fun there, the Toy Train Museum and Strasburg has a good hobby shop on board. You can even rent a coaboose to stay in overnight.
Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: SteamGene on June 29, 2008, 09:21:22 PM
It's also in the heart of Amish country, so plenty of buggies and such.  The only problem I have with it is the spiel is a bit hookey in places.
Gene
Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: jsmvmd on June 30, 2008, 11:33:52 AM
Dear Charlii,

Gorgeous!

You are quite a craftsman!

A client told me they stayed in one of the converted cabeese, and did not like it at all.

However, I was thinking of moving one to a place in the country to make a bachelor pad. Just the ticket for an old grizzley.

Would certainly advise a visit. Realize, though, the trip is 4.5 miles out and 4.5 m back, I believe. A very nice part of the trip is when the engine is un-coupled and taken to the "back" of the train for the return trip as there is no turn-around. You can get some very nice close up pix.

Another nice trip is the Western MD Scenic RR in Cumberland, MD. On that trip you will bet cinders in your eyes and hair!  Just remember to look down and blink to get the cinders out of your eyes.

Of course, the EBT gives you a variety of trips on live steam, diesel and electric trolleys. A must see for everyone who comes to the Mid Atlantic states!
Best Wishes,

Jack
Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on June 30, 2008, 04:08:19 PM
Quote from: SteamGene on June 29, 2008, 09:21:22 PM
It's also in the heart of Amish country, so plenty of buggies and such. 
Gene

And don't forget the shoo-fly pie. ...  ;)
Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on June 30, 2008, 04:12:47 PM
Quote from: japasha on June 29, 2008, 08:10:54 PM
Sheldon is correct on visiting Strasburg. Even my wife was impressed and wanted a second trip. Across the road is the Pennsylvania State Railroad Museum and you can see at least one example from the Pennsylvania RR steam days. Plenty of fun there, the Toy Train Museum and Strasburg has a good hobby shop on board. You can even rent a coaboose to stay in overnight.

The Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania has lots of relics of PRR steam, as it holds the equipment the railroad itself preserved.
Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: Atlantic Central on June 30, 2008, 04:16:06 PM
I've slept at the caboose motel, years ago in another life, not bad but not fancy by any means. The motel is right next to the tracks, great train watching all day long!

Sheldon
Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: Jim2903 on July 01, 2008, 03:45:46 PM
Quote from: Atlantic Central on June 29, 2008, 01:59:34 PM
D&RGW cars where yellow.

Sheldon


To my knowledge, only Rio Grande narrow gauge passenger cars were yellow, starting in the '50s after they were repainted yellow for a movie and the railroad kept them that way ("Grande gold," lasting until the present on the Silverton train). Before then, they were Pullman green back to about the teens, before which they were tuscan red. D&RGW standard gauge heavyweight/wooden coaches would have been green.
Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: Yampa Bob on July 01, 2008, 09:30:30 PM
I have researched the net for weeks and can only find vague answers to some questions I have about the "Overlands", so will ask them here.

Apparently the name "Overland" came from the old Butterfield Overland Stagecoach Lines, which was later replaced by rail. My first question is:  What car manufacturer made the 50' Overland passenger cars?

It was earlier stated that the name "Overland" is a SP/UP thing.  Now I realize model manufacturers tend to stick innappropriate road names on locos and cars.  But consider this, according to "Wig-Wag Trains", Athearn put the following road names on the Overlands, over the past 3 release years:

B&M, CN, CP, D&RGW, CNW, GN, NYC, SP, Santa Fe, Baltimore & Ohio, PRR, SOU, V&T.

It would seem logical that the same factory that made the "Overland" cars for western railroads would also have made the ones for "Ma & Pa".  If the eastern railroads didn't call them "Overlands", then what did they call them? 

Another question I asked earlier, but no one answered, "What was the seating capacity of the 50' coach?  One site hinted at 56, with the other 8 person seating used for a wood stove and conductor's station?

As far as I can determine, the 34' Overtons were mostly in "Bumble Bee Yellow", but the Overlands were, as mentioned above, made in both yellow and green.  I have both the D&RGW and SP Overland sets in green, the yellow version of D&RGW will be released later this year, I have it on pre-order. 
Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: Jim2903 on July 02, 2008, 11:50:21 AM
I think "Overland" was just a marketing name Roundhouse came up with, something that sounded western, evoking images of the Overland Express. Then they get painted in lots of roadnames so lots of people will buy them. I'm no expert, but I would guess most lines, east or west, just called 'em open-platform wooden coaches. They don't appear to represent any one specific prototype, like Harriman, Boonton or Stillwell -- they just look old-timey.
Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: Pacific Northern on July 02, 2008, 06:24:53 PM
I have a copy of the CPR Colonist Car series 1100 dated 1905. this car looks like the Maryland and Pennsylvania coaches.

The car was built by Crossen Mfg of Ontario Canada

http://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstock/builders/crossen.htm

Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: charlii on July 02, 2008, 07:22:54 PM
Photo of Ma and Pa #25, built 1903, acquired Ma and Pa 1914, rebuilt baggage/coach 1923. Next on my list to build. (Note odd shaped roof end)

(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc230/chuckaluick_photos/MaandPa25.jpg?t=1215040694)
Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: Yampa Bob on July 02, 2008, 09:04:06 PM
Jim,
I think you are correct about the "Overland" name, which explains why I couldn't find any reference to it.

According to this site, Jackson & Sharp made many cars for Rio Grande. The company was acquired by American Car & Foundry in 1901.  So I think it's safe to say that most of these "vintage" cars were built by J & S / ACF.

http://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstock/builders/jacksonsharp1.htm

J & S made hundreds of narrow gauge cars.  Since they were only 7' wide, they had 2 seats on one side, 1 seat on the other, then switched the arrangement at mid car for "balance".  That would make the seating capacity 48 maximum for narrow gauge, and 56 for standard.

Thanks for the suggestion, it makes sense to me.
Bob 
Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: Pacific Northern on July 02, 2008, 10:32:49 PM
RE the Ma & Pa #25

Check the description for Bullnose platform and the duckbill platforms

http://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstock/dictionary/dictionary1.htm#C

Title: Re: Maryland and Pennsylvania HO Clerestory Coaches
Post by: Yampa Bob on July 03, 2008, 07:28:43 PM
That's a great web site for my research on western coaches.  I found several floor plans for 34' to 50' coaches.

Denver & South Park had their own car building facility. Apparently the cars were built back east, then shipped in sections to DSP for reassembly, with some flourishes added.

Looks like I have some more car bashing to do.  I found a drawing of a coach 42' over the sills, 48' overall.  I have an extra set of 50' Overlands that will bash nicely.

They will fill the gap between my Overtons and Overlands.