Bachmann Message Board

Discussion Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: lanny on March 05, 2007, 07:46:17 PM



Title: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: lanny on March 05, 2007, 07:46:17 PM
Hi all,

Just wondering ('tongue in cheek' wondering :-) if this is what prototypical 'piggyback' freight is all about :-)

Evidently the grain train was going faster than it was supposed to be, and climbed right up on the back of the container train in front of it. The guy who sent it to me titled it 'restricted speed' ... he thinks someone is probably in big trouble.

lanny nicolet

(http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/4938/restrictedspeedrd1.jpg)


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: JM on March 06, 2007, 01:21:35 AM
 ;D  OOOOOOPS!!!!   Looks like UP is gonna be doing some repair work!   I wonder if they took the loco off the well car and moved it or just left it on?


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: martin_lumber on March 06, 2007, 11:16:17 AM
That must make it a little easier to clean up the mess! I never knew that was possible!

Phil


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: Seasaltchap on March 06, 2007, 07:00:58 PM

What weight will these well wagons take?

Surely the loco is more than 2 containers.


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: Mr Mekanik on March 06, 2007, 07:56:13 PM
Look at it this way. Now they won't need a crane to lift up the loco, it's ready to be hauled away.


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: Nathan on March 06, 2007, 07:59:10 PM
Two Questions:

1:  Is the 'ramp' version of the well car avaliavle in all scales?

2:  Does the combination shown count as one train, one train in two sections, or two trains?


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: Paul M. on March 06, 2007, 10:46:19 PM
That's amazing! I never thought that would happen!  :o


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: lanny on March 06, 2007, 11:35:17 PM
I, too, question how the container 'well' car could support the weight of that size diesel ... but being a 'steam era' modeler, I'll have to leave the answser to that to the 'modern diesel experts' on the forum.

I am, however, pretty well convinced that well container car would not have handled a standard or large size Mountain or 2-10-2 that tried to climb up like that for a 'piggy back' ride.  :-)

lanny nicolet


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: JM on March 07, 2007, 02:37:56 AM
In one of my books on the early days of railroading in the US, i saw a picture of a 2-4-0 that rear-ended a stopped freight, blew through the caboose and ended up sitting atop an empty flat car, apparently the loco was so well balanced and firmly wedged on the flat car, and the flat was still able to be pulled....they left it on and took it to the yard...which I'm guessing wasn't too far away. Makes an interesting model subject.


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: Seasaltchap on March 07, 2007, 03:06:06 AM

lanny : I attach a pic' of a special 18-wheel wagon used by the LNER to transport naval gun barrels.

The pic' was taken in 1942 in the freight yards outside Paddington Station, London.

(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/seasaltchap/GunBarrel-1.jpg)
© 1981, OPC.


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: lanny on March 07, 2007, 03:44:57 PM
JM,

Your account of the 2-4-0 rear-ending the feight, 'blowing through' the caboose, makes me feel very sorry for any workmen who might have been inhabiting that caboose when the steamer hit!

Seasaltchap,

Is that one of the barrels of a naval gun used on destroyers?! Wow!, what an immense thing that was! It would be interesting to compare the weight of that Naval gun to the weight of a modern diesel locomotive!

lanny nicolet


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: JM on March 07, 2007, 03:49:13 PM
I agree Lanny, not a pleasant thought about anyone who may have been in the caboose.
 I don't have the book here with me, but when I get a chance I'll post the title at least and see if I can scan the pic.  It's a very interesting pic to be sure.


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: Seasaltchap on March 07, 2007, 08:30:49 PM

Destroyer !!!!!

Looks more like the barrel for  the 15" shells of a Battleship!


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: HOplasserem80c on March 07, 2007, 08:55:53 PM
THATS NOT FUNNY. UNION PACIFIC DIDN'T MENA TO DO THAT STOP MAKING FUN OF THEM AND DO I REALLY HAVE TO SAY WHY I AM SAYIND THIS. COM ON UR FAVORITE RAILROADS HAVE HAD A CRASH NOW AND THEN.IN 1940 AND 2-10-0 OWNED BY THE ICRR FELL OF A BRIDGE INTO A RAVINE. AND IN 1885 A 2-6-0 FELL ON A TRESTLE I DON'T KNOW WHO IT WAS OWNED BY BUT GIVE THEM A BREAK.


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: JM on March 07, 2007, 10:13:46 PM
Dude you need to calm down!  wayyyy down!!!   as long as no one gets hurt/killed it IS funny. The UP isn't your personal railroad so why are you so upset?


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: Paul M. on March 07, 2007, 10:56:53 PM
THATS NOT FUNNY. UNION PACIFIC DIDN'T MENA TO DO THAT STOP MAKING FUN OF THEM AND DO I REALLY HAVE TO SAY WHY I AM SAYIND THIS. COM ON UR FAVORITE RAILROADS HAVE HAD A CRASH NOW AND THEN.IN 1940 AND 2-10-0 OWNED BY THE ICRR FELL OF A BRIDGE INTO A RAVINE. AND IN 1885 A 2-6-0 FELL ON A TRESTLE I DON'T KNOW WHO IT WAS OWNED BY BUT GIVE THEM A BREAK.

Let me repeat after JM:Calm down. Wayyyyy down. Just 'cause "union pacific rules!!!!!!!!! is the best railroad" doesn't mean we can't give them some jazz over it.


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: Sam Clavis on March 08, 2007, 02:01:20 AM
He Just likes UP a lot. I like BR a lot and I'd be annoyed if someone made fun of them. But that pic is funny.


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: lanny on March 08, 2007, 10:13:12 AM
Seasaltchap,

You mentioned; "Destroyer !!!!! Looks more like the barrel for  the 15" shells of a Battleship!"

You're absolutely right, of course. Shows how far I am from a knowlegable person about things 'naval' ... I did mean 'Battleship' ... those really huge, formidable WWII floating fortresses. I think one, the "Iowan" or the "Missouri" (not sure which one), was refitted for combat action and saw action during one of the Iraq conflicts. Anyway, that barrel sure would be heavy! Amazing to think that it is just one small part of an immense mass of steel that floats on water!

HOplasserm80c,

Sorry that I offended you ... I had no intention of making fun of the UP as a RR. The photo I posted was sent to me by an 'over the road' UP locomotive engineer. I've never seen anything like that, so thought it might be interesting to others.

When I have a moment, I'll post a photo sent to me by the same person, of a CN/IC wreck. Speaking of IC wrecks, I remember seeing a photo of an E7 or E8 years ago, that was on the head end of 'The City of New Orleans' that hit a gas truck tanker trying to beat it across a RR crossing. The crew in the cab of the E unit were killed along with the trucker. That is very sad, and certainly not to be made fun of.

lanny nicolet


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: lanny on March 08, 2007, 10:56:06 AM
Here is the 'promised' photo of a CN/IC wreck. I believe this happened in Canada, so probably these are not locomotives marked with "IC" lettering on the cab,  as currently seen in the US on the ICRR mainline.

THNAKFULLY (and suprisingly) no one was hurt!

(http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/6603/cntrnwreckpd3.jpg)

lanny nicolet


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: Paul M. on March 08, 2007, 12:26:12 PM
Sorry if anything I did affended you. Here's a link to all the T&P wrecks:

http://www.texaspacificrailway.org/?p=8


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: HOplasserem80c on March 08, 2007, 10:16:08 PM
it is ok everyone sorry i yelled i just hate when people make fun of train wrecks or trains in general. my friends say trains a stupid and i get tierd of them saying that but it is ok, and once again i am sorry.


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: Matthew Ginkel on March 08, 2007, 11:03:55 PM
This is a more common occurance than you might think, thankfully this time it was just a lone GP30, the engineer was reported to be under the infulence.
(http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/773/dsc01853mz4.jpg)

CSX work crew: I guess we wont be needing this!  ;D
(http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/3680/dsc01854pb4.jpg)


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: JM on March 09, 2007, 02:16:15 AM
Plasser, you're going to have to learn to stop overreacting.....just because someone pokes fun at something you like doesn't mean you can go off on a tangent and start yelling. My fiance makes fun of my ''tinker trains'' all the time, it's no big deal, not everyone is  impressed that I hand painted the 350+ figures that inhabit my empire, or all the re-painting and decaling  I did on the locos and rolling stock, or the thousands of details I included in the scenes on my layout.....it's NO BIG DEAL!!!  I don't have this hobby to impress anyone, I do it just for me and my enjoyment, if there are those that think it's stupid, that's their opinion and they can have it....I personally think that the goobers who spend the weekend sitting on the couch screaming at ball player guys on tv are stupid, but thats their ''hobby''  and thats my opinion. 
  In the future, Plasser, try not to get so worked up,you're going to find people that think this hobby is a waste of time and money and it's stupid all through life....and it's NO BIG DEAL!!


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: rogertra on March 09, 2007, 03:00:49 AM
Here is the 'promised' photo of a CN/IC wreck. I believe this happened in Canada, so probably these are not locomotives marked with "IC" lettering on the cab,  as currently seen in the US on the ICRR mainline.

THNAKFULLY (and suprisingly) no one was hurt!

[img width=348 height=500]http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/6603/cntrnwreckpd3.jpg[/

Two Canadian National Railway workers were pulled to safety on Thu Jan 4, 2007, after spending the night in a locomotive that slid down a steep hill in British Columbia's Thompson River Canyon Wed Jan 3, 2007.

The men were operating a Vancouver-bound freight train that went off the tracks after hitting a rock slide at about 1 a.m. local time (8 a.m. British time) on Canadian National's mainline, north of Lytton, British Columbia, CN spokesman Jim Feeny said.

Rescuers were able to use ropes to lower blankets and hot food to the train crew, but because of safety concerns decided to wait until daylight to attempt to bring them up the 50-metre (160-foot) embankment.

"It was steep and there were still some rocks coming down," Feeny said, adding that it was also safer to wait because the two men were not seriously injured.

The engineer and conductor were pulled to safety about seven hours after the accident in British Columbia's rugged Interior.

The accident has blocked CN's mainline through British Columbia for an undetermined amount of time, but the railway was working with Canadian Pacific Railway on temporarily rerouting trains.



Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: lanny on March 09, 2007, 11:11:21 AM
Thanks for that information, Roger. Again, I emphasize that I'm thankful this had a very happy outcome!

lanny nicolet


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: Paul M. on March 09, 2007, 12:34:40 PM
Nice pics, Matthew. Looks like there IS a model for everything. :D


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: Joe Satnik on March 09, 2007, 06:28:27 PM
Dear Lanny and Roger,

Great pic and explanation. 

Do ya think that the engineer and conductor had their seat belts on?  What a ride, eh?

Can anyone talk about rock slide safety issues?  For instance, do railroads detect slides in a slide prone areas, signaling trains to stop?  Could the rumbling of an engine/train trigger a slide (on top of itself)?

Thanks. 

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik 


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: SteamGene on March 09, 2007, 07:04:58 PM
The barrel in question was not for a destroyer.  Most allied WWII destroyers carried no guns llarger than a 5"38.  By 1942 the USN had standardized on 16" for battleships, 8" for heavy cruisers and 6" for light cruisers.  I'm not sure about the RN, though I know some of the battleships and battle cruisers (RODNEY, PRINCE OF WALES, HOOD) had 15" main batteries.  Whatever the barrel is, it's at least for a heavy cruiser, and I think a battleship, but not 15 or 16 iinch.  Both the RN and the USN had 14" and, I think, 12" battleships in WWII.  I'd guess it was one of those two calibers.
Gene


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: lanny on March 09, 2007, 07:49:18 PM
Hi Joe,

Others will be able to give you a much more definitive answer. However, the times when we have taken Amtrak through the Rockies (the Amtrak Zephyr) or through Glacier Park (Amtrak Empire Builder), I have noticed areas through deep, rocky gorges where landslides or avalanches might be a real danger, many wires strung along the tracks.

I have 'assumed' that these are 'warning' wires ... should a rock slide or something hit the track, blocking it, the wires would obviously be broken and a warning signal sent out.

That is only an 'uneducated assumption, but the amount of wires in these grids seem to have some reason for being there, and it certainly isn't to hold back the mountain if it decides to slide.  :-)

lanny nicolet


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: JM on March 09, 2007, 11:05:25 PM
In one of my books on the early days of railroading in the US, i saw a picture of a 2-4-0 that rear-ended a stopped freight, blew through the caboose and ended up sitting atop an empty flat car, apparently the loco was so well balanced and firmly wedged on the flat car, and the flat was still able to be pulled....they left it on and took it to the yard...which I'm guessing wasn't too far away. Makes an interesting model subject.

I couldn't find the book with the pic in it that I was looking for, probably out on loan, but I did find an interesting pic in a book called..''This Was Railroading'' by George Abdill, on pg. 180 it shows a Mogul type loco perched atop the tender of another Mogul, caption says the Mogul rear ended the tender on the Great Northern near Tampico July 4 1899,  it was so securely wedged on the tender frame that both locos were towed to the shop.  Judging by the distance the Mogul traveled up on the tender it wasn't moving slow!


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: lanny on March 10, 2007, 12:30:24 PM
Here's an interesting series of recent shots my UP engineer friend sent me. I don't know the speed of the Eurostar from Milan, Italy to wherever it goes, but I suspect its very fast. Again I say THANKFULLY somehow they got stopped before a major catastrophe! All is elevated trackage with concrete ties and heavy rails. Imagaine a SF 4-8-4, a NYC Hudson,  a Pennsy K-4 or a NW Mallet, etc., rolling into this washout!

(http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/4184/eurostar3vj9.jpg)

Here's 3 more views of the same track washout ... taken somewhere in Italy.

(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/8776/euro2jv7.jpg)

(http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/8020/eurostar1cj6.jpg)

(http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/2405/eurostar4fi8.jpg)

lanny nicolet


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: Alex V. on March 10, 2007, 12:37:32 PM
 :o That gives a whole new meaning to "high-rail"; it looks like a cross between railroad rails and a high wire.


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: Jim Banner on March 10, 2007, 06:07:42 PM
Can anyone talk about rock slide safety issues?  For instance, do railroads detect slides in a slide prone areas, signaling trains to stop?  Could the rumbling of an engine/train trigger a slide (on top of itself)?
Joe Satnik 

I had some involvement in avalanche/rock slide detection several decades ago.  The wires Lanny saw beside the tracks were indeed for slide detection.  If one or more wires are broken, the lights at both ends of the section turn red.  Apparently this did not happen at the CN accident in the photo.  There was a chain link fence just before the slide area.  I understand that these fences are threaded with detection wires, and the chain link keeps wildlife from breaking the wire and tripping the signals.  Other photos of the slide show that the fence ended about 50 or 100 feet short of the slide.  I cannot help but wonder if it was a case of saving $1000 on fencing but spending a couple of million to fix the damage. 


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: lanny on March 11, 2007, 06:06:00 PM
Jim,

I wonder if perhaps CN is 'rethinking' all of their 'rock slide' detector fences ater that derailment. It would seem to me that any well run company, seeing that photo, would decide to spend the money necessary to 'stretch' the length of warning fences ... but maybe the 'dollar' alwas wins?. (I'm sure CN is not the only RR in North America that probably ought to take a very good look at such things!)

Might be a good thing for 'super detail' oriented modelers to add to the scenery on their layouts where they have steep mountains and gorges.

lanny nicolet


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: Seasaltchap on March 11, 2007, 10:19:07 PM

Rocks on the line!

Has anyone heard of leaves on the line to shutdown traffic?

That is what they have every Fall in the UK. Track is laid with rubber insulation pads in the sleeper chairs, so that any short curcuit will set signals to red. The Guard has a rod to otherwise set across the rails to short them out, and set the signals to red, to avoid oncoming trains meeting an incident. I have never understood why the mass of the steel wheels and axles does not perform the job too: but a belt & braces system operates in an emergency.

The Fall season of leaves falling on the track also does a pretty good job, when a train is not present.


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: HOplasserem80c on March 11, 2007, 11:04:01 PM
not to be nagging again but why would anyone imagine a NYC huson running off a bridge? the nyc huson is on of the best steam locos in the world


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: JM on March 11, 2007, 11:07:51 PM
What's a ''huson''?   is that some sort of loco??   do you mean Hudson?  in order for us to understand what you're trying to communicate you're going to have to learn to spell.
  And.........I'm sure no one "imagined'' a Hudson running off a bridge....I'm sure it's actually happened.....and it probably wasn''t on purpose.


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: rogertra on March 12, 2007, 02:52:00 AM
Seasaltchap.

The UK suffers from "Leaves on the line" for several reasons.

The prime cause is since the end of steam in the late 1960s, trees and other plant growth has been permitted to flourish along the linesside to the extent that it now brushes against the passing trains.  In steam days, very few trees and bushes were permitted to grow inside the railway fence so that few trees came within 20 to 30 feet of a train.  The result is that these trees now drop their leaves (Not "Leafs" Toronto fans please note) directly onto the track and railhead.

The second cause is the almost 100% use of multiple units on passenger trains.  These units are lighter than their steam hauled cousins and they don't have a steam loco on the pointy end that had sanders.  Modern UK multiple units and many locomotives, were not built with sanders as they were considered, with modern computor wheel slip control, not to be required.

The third cause is the use of disk rather than friction brakes.  Friction brakes act on the wheel tread and thus, by their very nature, clean any crud from the wheel treads with every application.  Disk brakes act on the backs of the wheels and thus do not clean the treads.

The fourth cause is the leaves themselves.  Damp leaves, crushed by wheels onto a steel railhead leave a sticky, slippery, black crud that will not go away n its own.  A train making a normal brake application can pick up its wheels and slide right through a red signal, thus causing a SPAD (Signal Passed At Danger), which is a major offence for a UK train driver and can cause a driver to loose their job. 

Because of this crud, the UK runs "Sandtite" trains which spray a mixture onto the railheads to clean the crud from the rail head and provide grip to braking wheels.

This is why fall is a bad season for UK railways and trains are frequently delayed by "Leaves on the line".





Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: lanny on March 12, 2007, 09:50:45 AM
Roger,

Thanks for that excellent explanation of 'leaves on the track' ... that's one that never occured to me before. Amazing the number of 'problems' that RRs have to consider and be on the lookout for. The leaves changing color in the fall is so beautiful, few would consider that time of the year to be a time of increasing danger for certain railroads.

I can remember a CNW branchline (before it was shut down and became a bike trail) that had a problem with overhanging trees. Every so often they RR would go along the track with some sort of railroad version of an upright lawn mower (make that 'tree limb mower') to cut back all this growth and keep it back from the track.

Any ideas why the British rail systems don't do something like that?

lanny nicolet


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: Guilford Guy on March 14, 2007, 06:30:59 PM
THATS NOT FUNNY. UNION PACIFIC DIDN'T MENA TO DO THAT STOP MAKING FUN OF THEM AND DO I REALLY HAVE TO SAY WHY I AM SAYIND THIS. COM ON UR FAVORITE RAILROADS HAVE HAD A CRASH NOW AND THEN.IN 1940 AND 2-10-0 OWNED BY THE ICRR FELL OF A BRIDGE INTO A RAVINE. AND IN 1885 A 2-6-0 FELL ON A TRESTLE I DON'T KNOW WHO IT WAS OWNED BY BUT GIVE THEM A BREAK.

oh did you hear about the B&M X class 2-6-6-2 that fell off the deerfield river bridge outside hoosac tunnel and the boiler exploded and parts of it  are still there?


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: HOplasserem80c on March 14, 2007, 09:45:46 PM
why would i care about a boston and maine 2-6-6-2. as long as it isn't a big boy it really doesn't make a difference to me


Title: Re: Is this what 'Piggy Back' means!
Post by: Guilford Guy on March 14, 2007, 10:06:10 PM
i thought you  mite have heard of it