Bachmann Message Board

Discussion Boards => On30 => Topic started by: Frisco on July 26, 2008, 09:10:36 PM



Title: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: Frisco on July 26, 2008, 09:10:36 PM
Okay I realize that it is done and alouthough I am not happy I am not complanning just wondering why did you do the 4-6-0 styled for ET&WNC which is only one road name when if you had changed a few details it would have worked for SPNG and RGS.


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: Charlie Mutschler on July 26, 2008, 10:30:24 PM
The ET&WNC 4-6-0 isn't likely to be an easy conversion to a dead-on model of the ex F&CC 4-6-0s that went to the RGS.  But, I suspect some enterprising people may feel that this locomotive can work for a number of prototypes.  The problem is that most of these other locomotives were slightly smaller than the ET&WNC locos, but, as I say, this may be a good starting point. 

ET&WNC 10, 11, 12, and 14 (Baldwin, 1916 - 1919) had 16 x 22 cylinders and 45 inch drivers.  Slide valves, Walschaert valve gear.  Not a lot of other 4-6-0s built for other narrow gauges in the US this late, but there are a few that are close. 

ET&WNC 8 and 9 (Baldwin, 1911) were slightly smaller - 15 x 22 cylinders, otherwise very similar - 45 inch drivers, slide valves, and Walschaert valve gear.  Seems as if these could be conversions from the model being developed.  One of these was ex Twin Mountain & Potomac  No. 2, one of a pair of identical 4-6-0s so there's an opportunity for those who demand something that isn't Colorado or well known. 

Slightly smaller, with 16 x 20 cylinders and 44 inch drivers, slide valves and Walschaert valve gear were Nevada California Oregon 11 and 12, built by Baldwin in 1911.  These had whaleback tenders, and were sold about 1927 or 1928, with No. 11 going on to be Pacific Coast 111, and No. 12 became SP 18.  SP 18 survived to go on display, PC 111 went to the Oahu Railway for use there during WW II, and was scrapped after the OR&L abandoned main line operations. 

Sumpter Valley No. 50 (Baldwin, 1916) also had 16 x 20 cylinders, but 42 inch drivers, slide valves and Walschaert valve gear.  Here's one to go with the cabbage stack the Bachmann team has developed.  The SV burned wood for most of 50's career there.  She went on to Peru. 

Also, ET&WNC 10 and 14 went to the White Pass & Yukon in 1942, and had a very short service life there (about a year) before being damaged beyond repair in the Whitehorse, YT engine house fire.  So there are some possibilities for this one, but not really F&CC / RGS 4-6-0's.  Still, this is a model which should have some nice possibilities. 

Charlie Mutschler
-30-


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: drgw268 on July 27, 2008, 11:59:37 AM
Okay I realize that it is done and alouthough I am not happy I am not complanning just wondering why did you do the 4-6-0 styled for ET&WNC which is only one road name when if you had changed a few details it would have worked for SPNG and RGS.

For some reason, after the initial run of cars (box car, short caboose, etc.) Bachmann has mostly lost interest in western prototype narrow gauge equipment for On30.  I know the vast majority of On30 modelers are freelance modelers interested in making small equipment running on backwoods shorter-than-short lines, but there must be some interest in it as "poor man's narrow gauge", as MMI has very agressive plans for Colorado narrow gauge in On30, Broadway Limited has dabbled with a few engines, and San Juan Car Shops is making all their kits available with On30 wheelsets.  They even cranked up an RTR line.

Bachmann is making some dandy western equipment in Fn3 (1:20.3) scale, though.  I guess I just need a little more space...


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: WVM_guy on July 29, 2008, 09:56:26 PM
Well don't you guys think it's about bloody TIME that Eastern/Southern NG got some play? You can't find jack for Eastern in HOn3. Hallmark EBT locos from the 80s are demanding exorbitant prices if you can find them.

I say a hearty thanks loads to the Bach-man for finally recognizing that there are OTHER NG roads besides those in Colorado/California.


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: Matt Bumgarner on July 30, 2008, 10:00:09 PM
AMEN!!


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: Dusten Barefoot on July 31, 2008, 12:28:49 AM
As Matt said, Amen!!!!!


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: Frisco on August 01, 2008, 12:15:26 AM
My wants apart what I am saying is that Bachmann could have had 2 roadnames for one locomotive instead of one. I will probaly get a painted unleatered any way and letter it for RGS. Also just in case any one wants to know Micro-Mark is selling the painted unletered for $186 each wich is the best price I have been able to find. Just email them for the product numbers.


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: Tomcat on August 01, 2008, 10:56:36 AM
Same about me, Frisco:

IŽll get me a unlettered version - RGS would mean we would have to use a Wood Cab version but avoid the fluted domes - the RGS No.20 would need straight domes, though.

Not sure yet if this combination will be available - Bach-man?
As I had understood the steel cab will have straight domes, the wood cab will have fluted domes...?!?! Or is there any chance of some kind of mixture..?

Kind regards, Tom


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: Charlie Mutschler on August 01, 2008, 01:41:25 PM
Actually, Bachmann has done rather well in giving broad geographic coverage with their selection of prototypes.  A gentle rejoinder to WVM Guy, Matt, and Dusten - the On30 offerings actually has a preponderance of eastern prototypes, and the argument that Colorado prototypes seems odd when you consider what the prototypes for most of the models are.

In motive power it comes out two  Colorado prototypes- the rail truck (RGS Goose 1), and the C&S 2-6-0.  The Porter tanks are ubiquitous, the Shay and Climax are pretty generic, as is the Davenport diesel.  The announced rail bus and trailer  is of an eastern prototype (albeit standard gauge), the 2-6-0 without the air tanks on the boiler is very close to Ohio River & Western and Washington & Waynesburg locos; the 2-4-4 Forneys  are very close to SR&RL prototypes, the inside frame 4-4-0 is a Cornwall & Lebanon prototype. 

The freight car fleet is very largely eastern prototypes - again Ohio River & Western cars wee the basis for the flat, low side gondola, and box car; the log car looks very close to cars used by the Surry Lumber Co, and the Ely-Thomas Lumber Co.  the pulp wood car is a SR&RL prototype.  The twin hopper is based on a very small number of two bay hoppers on the East Broad Top.  While most of these cars are available lettered for western roads, the fact is that many, if not most of the Bachmann On30 freight cars are based on eastern prototypes, regardless of how they are lettered.  If you don't like the western lettering on these eastern prototypes, get some paint and decals, and re-paint them.  Gosh guys,  doesn't anyone actually -model- any more? 

I think the Bachmann team has actually done remarkably well in offering a wide variety of prototypes for a wide variety of audiences.  One thing strikes me - this is actually a good time to be in the hobby, because there is a lot of material out there for many audiences.  No manufacturer will do it all.  For the RGS fans, I think I would try and talk to one of the other manufacturers, because when the prototype RGS 20 returns to service, there may be much more interest in a model.  Right now, the ET&WNC 12 has been in service and has been seen, while RGS 20 has hot turned a wheel under steam for over 55 years. 

YMMV etc. 
Charlie Mutschler
-30-


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: Matt Bumgarner on August 01, 2008, 09:00:53 PM
Charlie-

Thanks for your thoughtful post. I am like you, I think Bachmann has done a helluva good job serving all geographical areas. I made my comment because I was, and still am, amused and somewhat taken aback by the "Bachmann lost interest in western roads" remark.

That being said, and I do realize that it might just be inborn geographic semantics, but to me, there is a world of difference between the Colorado roads, the Maine roads, and the southern roads. And down here in North Cackalacky (that's Carolina), to call some of the rolling stock "East Coast" when its based in the Ohio River just doesn't hold quite true. From here, it might as well be lettered Chicago & Northwestern or Burlington.

But like you said, it is a GREAT time to be a modeler, especially for those of us east of the Mississippi and south of the Mason Dixon Line. When I was cutting my teeth in the 1970's, the only available factory "Southern" rolling stock was a bright red Tyco pulpwood car lettered "The Southern Railroad", which is laughable on so many fronts. Then, through about 1984, all we had was a Lifelike F7, an Athearn SW7, and a horribly painted Atlas SD24. Oh, and I can't forget that horribly ugly lime green "Cresent" pacific that AHM had. Geesh, that was one ugly engine. On the other hand, one could find nearly anything, including bridges, lettered Santa Fe, Union Pacific, Pennsylvania, Southern Pacific, and B&O.

So again, sorry if it is semantics, but those of us here in the southeast have come a long way.

And don't call us hillbillies- we prefer the term "Appalachian Americans"

And also remember to visit us in 2011- the site of the National Narrow Gauge Convention that year!

Matt



Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: Tomcat on August 02, 2008, 04:32:06 AM
Charlie, Matt - right you are, folks!

Actually, the new 4-6-0 would give a perfecet RGS No.20 and we may of course see a increasing demand when the real No.20 will be put back to the rails which wonŽt be that far.

The 4-6-0 has an enourmous potential, if one adds the right tender (from Keith Wisemans range for example) plus changes some minor details and the pilot - there you are. The question is, if we can get a straight domes boiler plus a Wood Cab together in one Loco...?

Any suggestions, Bach-man? ;) ;) ;)
Or - wouldnŽt that be cool to have the domes exchangeable like the Stacks in future?

Anyway - The Bachmann folk has done greatly again, researching and giving us two more beauties to run on our rails - love both...

Kind regards, Tom


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: mmiller on August 02, 2008, 02:18:42 PM
Quote
Actually, the new 4-6-0 would give a perfecet RGS No.20

well no, the new Bachamann 4-6-0 (while appearing to be a wonderful model) doesn't have much in common with the RGS 20 other that the wheel arrangement.

To me the big problems are the driver spacing, the valve gear and the cylinders. Also the boiler is kinda big and the smoke box is too long (and I suspect the boiler will be metal with the domes cast in place making modification difficult), not to mention the stack, cab, domes and other "details"...the boiler can probably be worked with (or replaced) but the running gear just doesn't look anything like the 20's

(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m85/mransr/messageboards/ETWNCvRGS.jpg)

again, this doesn't mean I'm not happy Bachmann has made another inside frame rod loco...and it doesn't mean I won't be getting one or two...I just don't think there would be much left of the ET&WNC 4-6-0 by the time it gets turned into an RGS 4-6-0 (IMHO the 2-6-0 is probably a better starting point due to the driver spacing and size and the plastic boiler)



Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: Frisco on August 02, 2008, 03:23:04 PM
Thanks for the pictures I did not realize that they were that diferent.


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: Charlie Mutschler on August 02, 2008, 04:39:22 PM
Mike made the point much more emphatically that I tried to make gently earlier.  The E&WNC 4-6-0 will be a wonderful model which will be very well suited to the wants of many modelers, and I am pleased to see it.  However, if you are (like self) an RGS modeler, this is NOT going to be an easy starting point to obtain a model of the ex Florence & Cripple Creek 4-6-0s.  Not quite as much of a stretch as trying to build a model of the CP "Jupiter" from Athearn F-7 parts that was a common joke at model railroad conventions, but not a simple conversion.  The driver diameters are different, driver spacing is different, valve gear is different, and so on. 

I don't think it will be a good starting point for the Schenectady 4-6-0s built for the F&CC.  I don't see this as a problem.  This is a model which will be very attractive to many people - the prototype is seen by many visitors to a well known theme park, and it may be a starting point to modeling some similar Baldwin ten wheelers.  Mike Miller may be able to tell us how close this one will be to the NCO locomotives (excepting the whaleback tenders), so possibly a budget 'close to' SP 18 may be possible.  That will make some SP narrow gauge fans happy. 

As I said, perhaps when the real RGS 20 is back together and operable, more interest in a correct model of that group of locomotives will lead to one being produced.   That is a way in the future, but who knows?   If not by Bachmann, perhaps someone else.  For now, I think there's plenty of opportunity out there.  Bachmann has provided a lot of nice locos and cars which have really helped give a boost to narrow gauge modeling.  No, they haven't done my favorite locomotive in On30.  But they have done some which I'm very happy to have.  And I'm one of the weird people who re-gauges mine to On3.  The C&S 2-6-0s look great with another manufacturer's C&S freight cars, including a very nice C&S caboose.  The Climax was easy to re-gauge, and it looks fine with another manufacturer's Pacific Car & Foundry log cars.  The rail truck was an easy conversion.  Too bad RGS 1 had such a short service life! 

Happy modeling and modifying
Charlie Mutschler
-30-


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: Frisco on August 02, 2008, 05:54:04 PM
Thanks, if they run REALLY good then I might get one and just letter it RGS. Otherwise I will just hope some-one will come out with one.


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: mmiller on August 02, 2008, 09:06:01 PM
I guess while I'm about it...here's the new 4-6-0 compared to SPNG #18...

(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m85/mransr/messageboards/ETWNCvSPNG18.jpg)

I know there are some significant differences beyond obvious "cosmetic" ones, like the driver spacing, but I think that it's probably a do-able conversion...especially for a "stand off scale" modeler like me


(BTW I understand that is Cliff Grandt, of Grandt Line, standing in the 18's cab)


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: Royce Wilson on August 02, 2008, 10:00:45 PM
Recentenly I picked up a copy of a book called "Rails,Sagebrush and pine "and there are some very interesting conversions as Charlie Mutschler pointed out, particularly the 4-6-0. I don't understant why this narrow road "Sumpter Valley" never got more attention than it did as it such a neat road to model with the wood loads piled as high as the top of the engine smoke stack. besides from what I understand Oregon is a beautiful place anyway.
I think the Portland convention will help that out though.                                                                                                                                                                                  Royce Wilson


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: Charlie Mutschler on August 03, 2008, 03:47:15 PM
Rails Sagebrush & Pine is a great book.  There is more there than just No. 50.  There is a Class B Climax which came originally from Hallack & Howard in New Mexico which might be close to the steel cab version of the On30 Climax for conversion.  I think that one had a Radley - Hunter stack instead of the cabbage stack on many of the Oregon Lumber and SV locos.

Happy research and happy modeling.  The SV is vastly under appreciated and the SV restoration people have done a beautiful job on the their Hesiler (W. H. Eccles No. 3) and SV ALCO mike No. 19.  well worth the visit.  But be aware that because it is an all volunteer operation, the train only run week ends. 

Charlie Mutschler
-30-


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: Royce Wilson on August 03, 2008, 04:38:43 PM
Charlie
         Was there a special trick to handeling the wood slabs from the top of those tenders in a safe manner?
that sure would make a intresting model,

                                                                             Royce Wilson


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: japasha on August 03, 2008, 04:53:18 PM
That is Cliff in the cab of #18.  There are a few more differences, the smokebox is the extended type for an ash net used only with a coal burner. #18 does not have one and has a shorter smokebox. The wheel spacing isn't exact but is passable. The domes and an SP type cab would be the harder parts to model.

I have modified a number of G size Tweetsies to look like #18 over the years. Not so hard once you bite the bullet. As stated by others, they make passable models. This is the way HO was for many years. Guys like Bill Schopp were wizards doing conversions.


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: Frisco on August 03, 2008, 09:28:05 PM
Thanks, for the photo's that looks much more easy. The SV is a great ride and all the workers are verry freindly and can anser all your quistions. The problem with them is unless you come towards it from Idaho you have to drive through about a day of dead grass and towns that have a sign for pop 2.


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: Charlie Mutschler on August 05, 2008, 03:30:15 PM
Royce, looking at the photos in _Rails Sagebrush and Pine_, and observing the crew of W. H. Eccles No. 3, the practice seems to have been to stack the first row back from the gangway low enough to not interfere with the cab roof, and to stack the rows behind much higher.  The fireman could pull a stick of wood off the top of the pile using his poker, which looks looks the usual fireplace poker but much longer and much heaver, so that he can adjust wood in the firebox when needed.  I don't think the current SV people have wooded No. 3 up as high as the photos in the book on any of the times i have been there. 

I would think that pulling a piece of wood down from a high stack would call for a bit of care and experience, to avoid braining the fireman or hitting the engineer with a bounced piece.  I think the wood for the SV was cut to about 30 inches long - but that's just recollection, not given as fact. 

Interesting subject, though. 
Charlie
-30-


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: Gunslinger87 on August 06, 2008, 01:47:48 AM
Does anyone know where I could find more Photos of B-mann's new 4-6-0?


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: finderskeepers on August 14, 2008, 12:08:06 AM
More photos of upcoming bachmann releases are on this webpage
www.voiemetrique.org/


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: NarrowGSouth on August 24, 2008, 10:44:44 PM
Disclaimer: The statement below is by no means a biased statement in anyway, well, maybe just a little bit.

Well who says Bachmann can't produce the other 4-6-0's? I, personally think it was smart for Bachmann to choose a well known eastern prototype, which has been immortalized by the Tweetsie Railroad theme park.

I also think they chose the ET&WNC ten-wheeler because they were familiar with the prototype. For those drawing blanks to that, I am referring to the large scale 4-6-0.

However, I hope that Bachmann will not limit itself to one 4-6-0 and considers the RGS, F&CC, SPNG, and D&RG (COUGHT12COUGH) for future release.

NGSouth




Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: finderskeepers on August 27, 2008, 05:25:09 PM
Sure does look a lot like the ex Alaska engine at the Huckleberry railroad in Flint Michigan though, like the green jacket too
(http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/0/9/2/4092.1203267600.jpg)
picture by Michael Allen


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: C.S.R.R. Manager on August 28, 2008, 03:39:02 PM
Michael, that got me thinking...  It would be cool to compare the new Bachmann loco to the Alaska #152.  I've got to admit, it's really close.  The only major difference I see is that the tender on #152 looks more like the tender from the 2-8-0.  The cab on the model also looks longer, the domes are bigger... and the snowplow, obviously.

And I agree about the green boiler -- That would be a great alternate paint scheme for the new Bachmann loco.

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/Gresham.Media/SLb3Ugw2S_I/AAAAAAAAALs/3yHfy2s9-tc/Bach-152_Comp2.jpg)


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: Frisco on August 28, 2008, 03:53:06 PM
I hope they do another version like they did with the 4-4-0. I am holding my breath for something more exciting (for me) at this years National Narrow Gauge convention this September. :-* :)


Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: WVM_guy on September 01, 2008, 12:39:11 PM
Oh come on, can't you guys tell a West Virginia Midland 4-6-0 when ya see one  :P

Actually, the domes on the WVM unit are round and not fluted, but uh....we replaced them in 1945...yeah, that's it.



Title: Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann
Post by: finderskeepers on September 04, 2008, 08:31:51 AM
Here is a better shot of the alaska engine, sure is pretty no?
(http://www.alaskarails.org/pix/former-loco/GT-152.jpg)