From my limited research, I understand Edward Harriman's railroad career started in 1881, He apparently had much influence on standards for locomotives, cars, even bridges, and owned or had interests in many railroads, including IC, SP, CP and UP.
He was also one of David Moffat's nemeses, and along with Gould tried to block all of Moffat's ventures. Moffat was not allowed to use the facilities of Union Station in Denver, so he had to build his own depot for "The Moffat Road".. It's ironic that the company that fought Moffat the most today benefits from the Moffat Tunnel. Harriman was indeed a shrewd and formidable adversary who always managed to get what he wanted.
I often hear someone refer to a "Harriman Locomotive". Being a bit steamer challenged, I get no picture in my mind of what that means. So please enlighten me, what characteristics distinguish a "Harriman" from other locomotives?
One site stated that from 1903-1913, many loomotives were "Harriman's design", including Mikados, Pacifics, Consolidations and Atlantics, which must be referring to W. Averell Harriman since Edward's death is listed as 1909. W.A. apparently "controlled" UP by virtue of financial investment, but didn't become Chairman until 1932.
Union Pacific's ten wheeler #1243 is often called a "Harriman engine" because it is the only locomotive still owned by UP from the era when Harriman controlled the railroad.
So...isn't the term "Harriman Locomotive" pretty vague?
http://www.hoseeker.org
Checkout the 1993 Roundhouse catalogue. There are a number of Harriman locomotives contained in it.
An example is:
http://www.hoseeker.org/mdclist/roundhousecatalog1993pg08.jpg
Well, I see the pictures, and the caption says it's a Harriman. But that doesn't really answer my questions.
Let me put it another way. Suppose someone handed you a locomotive but didn't tell you what it was, or you saw one on someone's layout. How would you be able to identify it as a Harriman? By the cab, driver spacing, boiler, valve gear, etc...what? If there is a label or sign that says it's a Harriman it's a no brainer.
Without an identifying label, to me it's just a 2-6-2. For that matter, what makes it a "Prairie"? I know what a Connie looks like as I have some. I can count the wheels, and I know the Whyte notation, that's about it. LOL.
Bachmann makes a 2-6-2 "Prairie". Would the one for UP be a Harriman? Harriman owned UP, it must have been designed to his specs? I'm trying to look beyond "I know it's a Harriman because it says so on the box".
Back in the 50's and 60's I could identify any car or truck by its appearance. Today, without a name on it, they all look alike.
Another example of a Harriman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Pacific_745
And a bit more information
http://www.lasta.org/about.htm
Bob,
Most steam locomotive wheel arrangements also come with a name, often for a reason, sometimes rather vague. Many have only one name, though some of the modern ones have more than one. Here's a sample:
2-6-0 Mogul
2-6-2 Prarie (it was used by several prarie railroads)
2-8-0 Consolidation (appeared at the time of a major consolidation of several northeastern railroads)
2-8-2 Mikado (first of this type bought by Japan) (there was an effort in WWII for Mac Arthur - no go)
2-8-4 Berkshnire / Kanawha (First appeared in New England/ C&O was not going to use a damnyankee name)
2-10-0 Decapod - from number of drivers: Russian Decapod - remainder of orders stranded here by Russian Revolution
2-10-2 Santa Fe - Developed by the AT&SF
2-10-4 Texas - Seems obvious - a Texas size locomotive <g>
4-4-0 American or American Standard - standard loco on American rails for 40 some yearz
4-4-2 Atlantic Developed, by think, by the ACL
4-6-0 Ten Wheeler - count them
4-6-2 Pacific - like the Atlantic, developed by a railroad with "Pacific" in its name
4-6-4 Hudson - by NYC - should be obvious - though first design was by Milwaukee Road and called "Baltic" - running out of oceans! :D
4-8-2 Mountain by C&O to overcome Blue Ridge and Alleghany Mountains/ Mohawk by NYC
4-8-4 Northern by Great Northern or Northern Pacifc, iirc - Greenbriar, Dixie, several other names by Southern roads - again no damnyankee names allowed
Few articulated had names: 2-8-8-4 Yellowstone, 2-8-8-2 Chesapeake (by C&O only), 2-6-6-6 Allegheny (misspelled by builder)/Blue Ridge, 4-6-6-4 Challenger, 4-8-8-4 Big Boy (not official name, which has been forgotten)
Switchers named "Coupled" with the number of drivers: 4 Coupled, 6 Coupled, ----
As for the second, the Harriman was normally a smallish version of the wheel type with a straight boiler and a characteristic spacing/shaping of the domes. May have had a unique cab, but I'm not a western guy.
Gene
I think that Harriman engines may have had a very distinctive cab roof line. The domes were also very unique . Of course there is the oil tender that was often seen on the Up and SP.
There must be a book out there about the Harriman owned lines.
If one looks at the 1977, 1983 and 1993 MDC Roundhouse catalogues the Harriman features for the locomotives are most apparent. Distinctive boiler shape - tapered, smaller domes and the unique cabs.
It is similar to seeing the Mantua/Tyco/IHC engines series where one sees the same boilers on various wheel arrangements.
Lets not forget the Harriman coaches as well. Quite a difference from the Heavyweight Pullman's of the day.
I'd like to have one really good book, with shop drawings, about all the different types, styles and classes of steam locomotives, including Harriman. I found such a book, IIRC "Steam Locomotive Encyclopedia", but I lost the link. Kinda expensive, around $60.
Guess I'll keep researching, maybe in 10 or 15 years I'll learn all this stuff. I searched for "Harriman Locomotives", lot of info about the man, but little on the loco designs. I know UP was partial to Stephenson valve gear, that's a start.
As for the coaches, I couldn't tell a Harriman from a Pullman unless the two were shown side by side. Can anyone post comparative pictures?
Unanswered question: Is the Bachmann UP 2-6-2 Prairie a Harriman?
Model railroader has the steam loco cyclopedia
http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/01001.html (http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/01001.html)
Bob,
The Bachmann 2-6-2 is a USRA light switcher with fake pony and trailing trucks added. Note the two sand domes.
Funny thing about the Steam Locomotive Cylopaedia. I had one and it got destroyed in storage. My wife told me to buy a new one and she'd pay for it. I asked about for a used copy without results, so I ordered a new one. Then a guy named Andy said he had an extra. Those of you who have been around can figure out who Andy is. Anyway, I got the new one, not Andy's old one.
Darn.
Gene
Thanks Paul. I really don't enjoy reading anymore, but hopefully it has lots of pictures. It's like any other activity, takes a while to get familiar with everything.
Next time I visit Caboose Hobbies, maybe my friend there can show me some of the details, they have thousands of locomotives.
You should see their inventory of brass locomotives. I asked my friend if they were just bought by millionaires. He said, no, just the ones who think they are. I saw one price tag of $5900.
Was it a model power engine with some brass parts?
It was an O scale steam locomotive. I'll have a closer look next time, my wife seemed anxious to get me by the display case.
Quote from: Yampa Bob on August 02, 2008, 09:37:36 PM
I'd like to have one really good book, with shop drawings, about all the different types, styles and classes of steam locomotives, including Harriman. I found such a book, IIRC "Steam Locomotive Encyclopedia", but I lost the link. Kinda expensive, around $60.
Guess I'll keep researching, maybe in 10 or 15 years I'll learn all this stuff. I searched for "Harriman Locomotives", lot of info about the man, but little on the loco designs. I know UP was partial to Stephenson valve gear, that's a start.
As for the coaches, I couldn't tell a Harriman from a Pullman unless the two were shown side by side. Can anyone post comparative pictures?
Unanswered question: Is the Bachmann UP 2-6-2 Prairie a Harriman?
http://www.hoseeker.org
Check the catalogues as mentioned, lots of pics.
Read the posts, look at the pictures..................
Once you see a Harriman Coach you will note the differences... Harriman, more or less first light weight coaches. Efficiency.............
Look at the assembly instructions for an Athearn box car!
Gene
In your search, look for "Harriman Common Standard" locomotives and cars. SP, UP, Chicago & Alton, were the main "Harriman" locos--and the name does refer to Edward. I think the feds broke up the Harriman lines around 1913, which accounts to that date after EH> died. Cab style, headlight style and position, types of appliances such as Worthington BL feedwater heaters, Vanderbilt tenders, style of pilot, all contribute to the "family appearance. Passenger cars were characterized by an arch roof rather than the more common clerestory roof. Even the 1923 Pullman built commute cars found on many short lines and tourist roads are known as "Harrimans" since they were built to the earlier Common Strandard design. gj
Glenn,
A search for "Harriman Common Standard" got me what I needed. The SP Historical Society has diagram reprints for Harriman passenger cars.
http://www.sphtsstore.org/servlet/the-88/Southern-Pacific-Passenger-Coaches/Detail
Reprints for tenders:
http://www.sphtsstore.org/servlet/the-87/Southern-Pacific-Tenders/Detail
The search also found many sites with excellent pictures and documentation, including the Harriman Consolidation 2-8-0.
Thanks