I know this is the Bachmann bord but I thought this needed to be told. By reason of the law-suit MTH will be getting the folowing BLI tooling 1.The Big Boy 2.the GG-1 3.the P-A 4.the F-A 5.the F-3 6.the F-7. They also got the former Lionel HO gas turbine and challenger. As soon as they find a way to put their system inside them they plan on selling them :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. You can view the rest of the story on Model Railroader.com On the subject of the MTH system if you can't say anything nice about it start your own topic.
Whoa! Man, and I liked the BLI looks of the locomotives. Well, I do love MTH, I would like to see what the turnout is. This is a very interesting topic, the best locomotives by MTH. I'm a good MTH fan, but I wonder just what this will do the all the effected companies.
Quote from: Santa Fe buff on August 13, 2008, 06:51:52 PM
Whoa! Man, and I liked the BLI looks of the locomotives. Well, I do love MTH, I would like to see what the turnout is. This is a very interesting topic, the best locomotives by MTH. I'm a good MTH fan, but I wonder just what this will do the all the effected companies.
I do hope that it does not get BLI shut down. I am not woried about Lionel as they were not even producing the locomotives.I am shure that they will be better locomotives and I just emailed MTH to see if they will have the operating couplers and smoke.
It was so sudden, I just saw the BLI F3 2 weeks ago. Oh, I hope MTH makes it purr real good. Oh, and I don't want Lionel to die, I wanted to at least get my own Lionel set first...
My opionion on this subject....MTH needs to get his head.....nevermind...not going to finish that one....but seriously....does he really need to put out more F7's, BIg Boys and Challengers? The market's been flooded with F7's by athearn. Big Boy has been done by Rivarossi(which IMO looks the best out of the many out there) Athearn, and BLI/BLI Blue Line, AHM, Older Rivarossis....Challengers have been done by Athearn, Rivarossi, AHM.(I know AHM and Rivarossi are the same, but i noticed with pure Rivarossi has more detail to them paint and detail wise then the AHM).
Also heres how i feel about MTH....I hate them with a passion. They put so many features in the engines you need their DCS system to run it. And from what i hear you cant run a DCC engine with the DCS system. (I know you can run this engines on DCC but you can't get all the features)
Bachmann is being smart. doing locomotives that have not really be done before ie that 4-4-0 Richmond and a highly detailed well running street car. Notice how many other manufactures are trying to meet that now? Con-Cor and Bowser both are now tyring to bring out the PCC's.
and one last question....why are Lionel and BLI Molds in the middle of this? I know that the plant in china makes Lionel BLI and MTH....but why are they in this?
If I understand this correctly, the toolings are being given to MTH by MKT as settlement for some other lawsuit which I am not familiar with. QSI also seems to be involved due to MTH filing a patent-infringement lawsuit. Here's one story on it: http://www.trains.com/mrr/default.aspx?c=a&id=2665
As for me, being an N-scaler now, none of this really matters to me personally. But if I still modeled in HO, I would be very upset. I have no intrest in sound, and even less in MTH's DCS system. But MTH forces me to buy both, even if I have no intention of using them. Why should I pay $150 for electronics I'm probably just going to remove? Paying an extra $20 for a built-in DCC decoder I can take, but I do not want to have to pay $250 for a GG-1 with features I don't want!
Timothy
Tim,
You are right. This is very bad for the hobby. Mike Wolf will now continue and advance his crusade to force people to use his control system. He will fail, but damage will be done to the hobby in the meantime.
I do model in HO, but the models mentioned are of no interest to me since I don't model the UP or PRR and don't "collect".
I have been known to buy BLI/PCM models and remove the DCC/sound when "stealth" versions are not available. But I only do that when the price is right.
MTH will not get any of my money until they build a loco that works correctly on 12 VOLTS DC!
Bachmann, Athearn and Proto get most of my loco dollars because they offer DC versions or DCC versions with easily removed decoders that did not jump the price through the roof.
This settlement seems strange since the NMRA has been challenging the patents held by Real Rail Effects and there is some indication the NMRA might win. As I understand it, this would put the idea of a sound decoder in the public domain and end all this stuff.
Sheldon
Frisco,
The purpose of message board is discussion. Discussion by definition means not eveyone will agree. They would be no need for discussion if everyone agreed on everything. People should express their views in a respectful manner, as everyone has in this thread, but you should not expect everyone who responds to just echo your view.
In fact you view is not shared by very many who have been in the hooby a long time and/or have a great deal invested in DC or DCC and have no intention of buying the MTH system. Especially since it will not run other brands of locos they already have.
And not everybody likes or wants sound, I know lots of people who don't like sound in smaller scales.
Sheldon
Frisco,
I have to agree with Sheldon on both Mike Wolf's tactics and his displeasure on attempted censorship.
If you like the system, fine. But others do not. I remember the MR rating did its very best to avoid saying many bad things about the MTH PRR K4, but I got a sense they weren't sold on the idea.
Gene
Frisco,
As a point of clarifing the obvious, I have lots of models F7's, F3's, FA's PA's - none of them manufactured by BLI/PCM. Nor would I have ever considered buying any of those models from them, again, since I don't use sound/DCC.
So maybe there is a silver lining in this dark cloud, MTH will get those locos and only sell them with their system in them. Then Bachmann, Proto (Walthers), Athearn, Intermountain and Bowser (Stewart) will all sell more of their versions of these locos - all of which work on DC or are offered both DC and DCC.
Hear that Walthers, its time to fire up the dies for the Proto FA's and make another run!
Sheldon
I've been noticing something here...
You guys are all mad at MTH for them pushing their DCS system on you, as you can not access all of the cool features with just DCC.
What happens with all of us DC guys who want a new model that is DCC/Sound only?? It's happened, and we are eventually messed into getting it, and paying more money for something that we don't care about (Sound and DCC)
You guys are going to have to live with it, and just use DCC and forget the DCS part. It happens to us, and we don't complain.
I am really sick and tired of the BLI/PCM BS that they have. Models announced 4 years ago still "need their tooling finished"
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?
Phil
Since I have mostly Bachmann and a few Roundhouse, I don't have a "dog in the fight" so to speak. At my old age, I have adopted a new philosophy, goes like this:
If my friend and I agree, no need for discussion we both go forward together.
If we don't agree, still no need for discussion, we just agree to disagree and go forward together.
There is some additional information coming forth on a number of other sites concerning the lawsuit.
What I found most interesting is that the tooling was not the property of BLI, it is/was in fact MTK's (Korean Brass).
Wait, Bob, are you saying that when people disagree, they should say absoluely nothing ? Since when has debate been a bad thing? As long as it's kept reasonable and intelligent (no "MIKE WOLF MUST DIE!!!!!!"), people should be able to talk about why they agree or disagree. That's my philosophy at least; your mileage may vary.
Timothy
I would try to edit this into my last post, but the forum is acting up and refusing to let me edit, so I'll have to double-post (a pet peeve of mine). Someone on the Atlas forum found this on the Model Railroader forum, and I thought it would be only fair to repost it here. It's MTH's official response to recent events.
Timothy
In reviewing the posts on the various online forums over the past couple of days, it's clear that there are a number of misconceptions about M.T.H. Electric Trains, our recent settlement with Korea Brass/MKT and past rumors about our company that are causing some posters confusion and angst. Hopefully the following will clarify the recent legal actions that have elicited a variety of consumer opinions and better illustrate our market driven approach to building products that model railroaders can enjoy.
First, there are some posters who continue to wrongly assume that M.T.H. is engaged in lawsuits or threats of lawsuits towards the DCC community. Further, some in the market believe that M.T.H. has claimed certain attributes of the DCC protocol (typically cited in these claims is back EMF) as our own and have incorporated those attributes into our own patents. Such concerns and beliefs are nonsense. M.T.H. has not sued or threatened to sue anyone in the DCC community and M.T.H. has not incorporated DCC features as "our own" into our patents. In fact, in regard to our patents, we have always encouraged the marketplace to review our claims and if evidence of prior art exists that would invalidate those patents to present that evidence to us so that we can revise or retract the patents with the USPTO.
Secondly, there are some who believe that we are forcing our DCS system onto the marketplace by including it instead of DCC in our HO models. Despite M.T.H. promotions to the contrary, some folks continue to miss the fact that every M.T.H. HO locomotive is equipped with a DCC and a DCS receiver. This ensures that DCC fans can run our engines in DCC mode using any DCC controller available (and access all the features their DCC system is capable of controlling). While it would be a marketer's dream to believe that we have the power to force people to accept our "way", the reality is that the model railroad community will ultimately determine the appeal of our DCS technology. Contrary to some opinions, we are quite content if customers choose to run our trains under DCC should that be their operating system of choice. We believe that no matter how our products are run, the customer will be thrilled with an M.T.H. locomotive's operation and features and as a result will consider additional M.T.H. offerings in the future. Admittedly, we're not apologetic that our HO models have more features when operated under DCS than when operated under DCC. These features exist only under DCS control because DCC doesn't yet, and may never, have the ability to control the sheer number of features we build into every one of our engines. Such is the difference between an older form of technology and a more modern version. One only has to look at the cell phone industry to understand this analogy. Try surfing the 'net on your 1990s circa cell phone!
Next, the settlement between M.T.H. and MKT benefits the market, including Atlas customers, because it also settled the patent infringement claim between Atlas, American Hobby Distributors, QSI and Real Rail Effects. While the Real Rail Effects patent may ultimately be overturned, the lawsuit against Atlas, American Hobby Distributors and QSI was very real and cost those firms money to defend. We were able to resolve those disputes while also protecting ourselves against any future infringement suit Real Rail Effects may have aimed at us for the same reasons they went after Atlas, QSI and American Hobby. We tried very hard to create a resolution that would have eliminated the Real Rail Effects patent threat for the entire railroad industry, much as we successfully did with the Union Pacific trademark lawsuits two years ago (saving the manufacturers and ultimately, the consumer, additional and in our opinion, unnecessary costs). Unfortunately that goal proved to not be in the cards this time, but we take some satisfaction in knowing that at least those who have been sued were spared this leagal threat.
Fourth, some confusion exists in the market that Broadway Limited may have legal recourse against M.T.H. regarding the transfer of the tooling defined in the settlement agreement. This simply isn't true and it's important that the market understand that all of these tools were owned by Korea Brass/MKT not Broadway Limited. In fact, it was Korea Brass that originally created the Broadway Limited entity. There is nothing stopping Korea Brass/MKT/Broadway from retooling these same engines in the future. When M.T.H. releases these engines under our own banner, they should include a wide variety of improvements that will distinguish them from their previous incarnations that will appeal to consumers, even those who purchased them the first time around. For example, our GG-1 will feature operating pantographs that automatically raise and lower themselves on a direction change. We've long had this feature in our Premier Line O scale models and will be releasing it in our RailKing One Gauge (1:32 scale) GG-1 this month.
Fifth, M.T.H. has long believed that product choice is a benefit to the consumer and will grow the hobby. A good example of this can be seen in the introduction of the SD70ACe to the O scale marketplace in our Premier Line one year ago. Simply put, we gave consumers another choice from a previously produced, very expensive all-brass o scale model. Our model sold for around $400 and has proved to be the best selling diesel we've ever built. We worked with EMD, not a brass model, to design our engine and we believe the end result of an alternative SD70ACe o scale choice was a positive for the marketplace. We simply don't subscribe to the belief that the market shouldn't have choices for fear that a subsequent iteration of a previously produced or promised model from another manufacturer will hurt that manufacturer's feelings or disrupt their own ability to bring out the same model. It's ultimately about the consumer. The more competitors there are, the more choices you have. The more choices you have, the more features you get, and ultimately, the more value you receive for your hard-earned money.
Certainly each of us has the right to voice our concern regarding events in this hobby. We know there will be some who find our products unappealing for personal reasons. No product can appeal to every customer every time. In time, though, we trust that the market will see past the innuendo and inaccurate reports of our intentions and vote with their pocketbook based only on our model's attributes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Edleman
Vice President - Marketing
M.T.H. Electric Trains
Again,
To clarify MY position:
I do NOT take exception to one word of the reposted comments from Andy Edleman of MTH - on the points he makes I understand and agree.
I also understand the ownership of the tooling, this is not the first time something like this has happened in this industry.
But Andy failed to address my complaint about his company and their products.
I will repeat MY personal objection to MTH and their "view" on marketing in this hobby. Their locomotives DO NOT RUN CORRECTLY ON THE NMRA STANDARD 12 VOLTS DC.
This alone will keep my money going elsewhere. MTH fails to realize that DCC useage is only about 30% of the market and seems to have leveled off. This has driven EVERY other manufacturer to offer more DC friendly models in one way or another.
Bachmann gives modelers the plugs to allow simple removal of the decoder, and the street prices of the DCC versions are only a few dollars (literally) more than their non DCC versions a few years ago.
Atlas, Athearn, Intermountain, Walthers/Proto, and Boswer/Stewart all offer both DCC and DC versions.
Broadway Limited/PCM has introduced the Blue Line to appeal to DC modelers and still promote their commitment to sound. And, has offered a number of DC only versions in their "Stealth" line.
I wish MTH the best of luck building products for only 30% of the market - no one else has been able to hold to that idea and make money.
Signed - Still using DC and not interested in onboard sound
Sheldon
Do you think DCC has reached a saturation point, at least with "committed" modelers?
I like having choices, and refuse to pay for something I don't need or want. That's about all I can add to this topic.
Quote from: Yampa Bob on August 15, 2008, 08:57:10 PM
Do you think DCC has reached a saturation point, at least with "committed" modelers?
I like having choices, and refuse to pay for something I don't need or want. That's about all I can add to this topic.
I would imagine that the new model railroaders would tend to go the DCC systems from the start. Being informed that you can run a number of engines individually at the same time without special wiring would certainly be reason enough..
Sound, I think is a personal preference While I have a number of steam and diesel engines with sound I do at times turn off the sound. Sometimes it just gets too noisy.
Bob,
Just going by the modelers I know, the layouts I have visited in the last few years, and conversations with shop keepers I know, DCC conversion by established modelers seems to have leveled off.
I agree with Pacfic Northern that many if not most all new people will go directly for DCC.
And that will result in DCC becoming the primary system, IF, and only if, nothing better comes along to displace it. Remember cassette tapes, which replaced 8 track which replaced vinyl records?
I still have 1500 vinyl records, they sound better then any tape and better than most compact discs. Newer is not always better.
Established modelers, with DC control systems that work well for their needs, who have not already embraced DCC, are not likely to unless something prompts them, like having to rebuild after a move, etc.
The cost and complexity of DCC will continue to stop some, simple lack of need will stop others from converting. Possible advancements in DC such as plug and play computerized block control, or simple systems like my walk around block control system, could easily find their own niche groups or even grab large market shares in the future.
Layout based sound, now available for DCC, is very viable for DC systems and would change the landscape for the sound crowd quite a bit.
My system will soon be installed on its first layout, which will be on our NMRA Regional tours and other open houses this fall. We will see how well it works and how other modelers respond.
Sheldon
Companies must be selling complete sets by the thousands or they would quit making them available. Roundhouse recently released sets with vintage loco, Overland cars, EZ Track and controller. I did my share of promoting the hobby by buying 3 sets. They are DC sets, but the loco is DCC ready so it does give me choices.
Yesterday, a new modeler reported buying a complete Zephyr controller for only $15 at a yard sale.
rather late for this topic since i've had this to MTH snice they opened, same as B&Ofan, i hate them with a passion. they think they know what there doing but they don't. there trying to take the HO scale market as they tryed with the G scale and have done with O scale. one thing and one thing only i have to say about them and that is that they just suck, suck suck suck. sorry to any MTH fans but to me and some others(alot of people i know as well) agre that MTH is the root of all evil as far as model railroading is concered. sorry to all but to some thats the way it is.
ok another note that may be kinda mean but now i am royaly screwed because i was going to order a FA-1 A-B set in NYC colors from them but now i can't cause of F@$#ing MTH, so thanks for making my day MTH, you screwed another modeler.
On the subject of the MTH system if you can't say anything nice about it start your own topic.
[/quote] Every-one always has to be negative about this(The quote was just a nice thought) if you don't like them don't buy from them. If anough people don't buy from them they will quite HO scale. For myself I like them and since they got tooling for HO scale locomotives in the law-suite instead of just money I don't think they have any thought of leaving HO.Also ( I know you will all attack on this) I wish HO scale would standardize on their system(since it is better in EVERY way). I know that this probaly won't happen, but if you think about it if you were starting out without much of a collection then would'nt you go with there system(operating couplers on the diesels, good smoke units on the steam and about 30 functions instead of about 12).
well i'm running on DCC and i don't what people whining that i don't use all the functions cause mabey we don't need all that stuff,.........or atlest the modelers that don't like to show off, besides BLI had made those engines a hell of alot better then MTH will cause all they can do is add there stupid DCS system and call it theres
CMRR401,
You comments are rude and uncalled for. Regardless of your age, grow up and be respectful.
FRISCO,
You fail to realize or fail to understand that not everyone wants DCS, DCC, sound and/or smoke.
Personally, I think cheezzy smoke and silly sounds like station noises, etc, etc, are too toylike and take the "model" out of model railroading. If you like that stuff, fine, but don't expect everyone to.
I looked very hard at DCC and decided against it, I will not repeat all my reasons again. But I do not want to pay the extra money for sound and DCC that I will not use, AND, I will not buy locos like those from MTH that do not run CORRECTLY (that is full scale speed) on 12 VOLTS DC.
Every MTH HO loco so far released requires 16-18 VOLTS DC to reach normal top speeds on regular DC. My control system will not provide that voltage and it would damage my other locos.
DO YOU GET IT NOW?
Every other manufacturer has acknowledged these things and offers both or, in the case of Bachmann, includes the jumper pins to remove the inexpensive decoder that adds very little to the price.
Why dosen't MTH offer DC versions? - because Mike Wolf thinks he knows more about what I want than I do - he is wrong - my money will continue to go to Bachmann, Proto, Intermountain, Athearn, etc, etc.
Sheldon
I agree with Sheldon on the issue of NMRA compatibility. While I am no longer a member of NMRA over how DCC was implemented, the idea of compatibility for those not using DCC was addressed well. If one manufacturer runs off and does it's own thing, it had better have a reason other than some marketing guy's fantasy.
In 1973 I was building radio control Diesels for my own pleasure but made them 12 volt compatible so I could turn off the radio and play at the local club. In many ways it was similar to the sys. tem used for the G scale big haulers using an FM carrier with amplitude modulation for speed control. Very simple and bullet proof The idea fell on deaf ears and the hobby ran off a direction that the marketeers control. I am like Sheldon, I build extremely well filtred DC power supplies and am playing with sound. HO speakers leave a lot to be desired in sound generation I am experimenting with speakers under the layout. Just a simple radio signal runs it. PFM and PBL offer systems like this you can buy and it sounds much better.
While some dreamers want automated real trains, the reality is that humans will be operating the for many years to come. I prefer human intervention at the throttle, on the brakes and coupling and uncoupling, just like the prototype.
I have about $20K of MTH O gauge stuff I'm selling. It is badly designed electrically. Lionel isn't too much better. The lawsuit proved only that someone could lie better than the other guy.
The HO scale MTH locos, [ K-4 and Triplex] run just fine on D.C., NMRA Compatible DCC and the MTH DCS systems.
MTH is not forcing anybody to purchase a DCS system.
if you have a DCC system that goes to 28 accessory functions, [MRC Prodigy Advance Squared or Wireless], or the Bachman Dynamis System, [has 21 accessory functions] you can really enjoy the sounds of these locos and get the max out of them.
of course on D.C. you are limited as to what sounds you get, but that is the same with all dual mode sound locos on the market today, [athearn, bli, atlas, proto 2000, etc., etc.].
In any hobby there will be choices . Buy what you like and need and let others make their own choices . Marketing wants to sell you everything imaginal , vote with your money . John II
grumpyoldtrainguy,
You are missinformed, the MTH K4 and Triplex do not run "just fine" on DC. At 12 volts they run very slow, it takes 16-18 volts to get a normal speed from them. The NMRA standard propulsion is 12 volts.
As for sound, don't want it or care how it works or doesn't work on DC, but again, I will not buy locos that do not work CORRECTLY on 12 VOLTS DC.
And, I will not pay hundreds extra for features I don't want.
Jhanecker2,
I just voted with my money by purchasing several more Bachmann 2-8-0's and two DC powered F7 ABA sets from Proto2000. MTH missed that $1,000.
Sheldon
That Ebay listing appears to be a mistake on the part of the lister, the link to the MTH feature/detail page clearly lists it as O, not HO.
Sheldon
I can see the point of view for those who do not want sound or DCC, but for those who run DCC there is no reason not to get them, because they cost pritty much the same price as comparibale sized BLI and Bachmann locomotives you can think of the extra functions as something that is thrown in for free that when the rest of the hobby catches up (more DCC systems offer 28 functions) will be waiting for you, same for the smoke unit it is not costing you any more and can be turned off if you do not want it(myself I think it is one of their best items). I do wish they would offer locomotives just DCC ready so that I could just get one or two sound/DCC/smoke locomotives per set. I think the reason that they are not doing this is because of all the items you would be loosing with it for example the working mars light on the GS-4.
Quote from: Frisco on August 21, 2008, 02:45:06 PM
I can see the point of view for those who do not want sound or DCC, but for those who run DCC there is no reason not to get them, because they cost pritty much the same price as comparibale sized BLI and Bachmann locomotives you can think of the extra functions as something that is thrown in for free that when the rest of the hobby catches up (more DCC systems offer 28 functions) will be waiting for you, same for the smoke unit it is not costing you any more and can be turned off if you do not want it(myself I think it is one of their best items). I do wish they would offer locomotives just DCC ready so that I could just get one or two sound/DCC/smoke locomotives per set. I think the reason that they are not doing this is because of all the items you would be loosing with it for example the working mars light on the GS-4.
There can be a way to include a working Mars Light on DC. My P2K E8 has one and it's from the early 90s.
Quote from: Frisco on August 21, 2008, 02:45:06 PM
I can see the point of view for those who do not want sound or DCC, but for those who run DCC there is no reason not to get them, because they cost pritty much the same price as comparibale sized BLI and Bachmann locomotives you can think of the extra functions as something that is thrown in for free that when the rest of the hobby catches up (more DCC systems offer 28 functions) will be waiting for you, same for the smoke unit it is not costing you any more and can be turned off if you do not want it(myself I think it is one of their best items). I do wish they would offer locomotives just DCC ready so that I could just get one or two sound/DCC/smoke locomotives per set. I think the reason that they are not doing this is because of all the items you would be loosing with it for example the working mars light on the GS-4.
If you check the street prices and not the MSRP you will find the MTH engines are more expensive than BLI or Bachmann Spectrum.
It will be interesting if the MTH units sell well in comparison to their competition. If model railroaders willingly pay the premium price I will be surprised. I would gladly purchase a GS-4 or GS-6 if I could find one at a competitive price and run it on DCC.