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Discussion Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: pdlethbridge on August 18, 2008, 07:36:59 PM

Title: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 18, 2008, 07:36:59 PM
I just installed a digitrax 123 decoder onto my turntable and it works great Its address 3. I can shut it off as its on a switch. Today I installed a decoder into my Bachmann 2-8-0, a 123 digitrax with the plugs on each end for a quick install. I clipped the capacitor as per instructions at NCE, Digitrax, Gateway, etc. I tried the engine but nothing, no lights, no movement, no nothing. Did I bust a wire someplace or is there another problem. I tried a second decoder with the same results.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 18, 2008, 07:42:42 PM
I tried the decoders in another engine and they still work. Worse case scenario I  would hard wire it if I have to.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: Yampa Bob on August 18, 2008, 09:40:59 PM
Hi Paul
Best I can do is offer some moral support.

The 9 pin plug that goes to the decoder has a notch, so it should only plug one way, guess you already noted that, so it must be ok.

I also assume you tried the 8 pin adapter plug both ways.

Did you try to run it again without the decoder on DC power? (with the jumper plugged back in) 
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 18, 2008, 10:31:50 PM
According to the instructions that I followed here http://members.shaw.ca/sask.rail/dcc/2-8-0/index.html (http://members.shaw.ca/sask.rail/dcc/2-8-0/index.html) it should be okay
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 19, 2008, 12:25:47 AM
does anyone have a schematic of the wires for the bachmann 2-8-0? It looks like I'll have to hard wire it. The product reference here shows the wires, but they are not marked as to what color or type.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: Jim Banner on August 19, 2008, 01:59:13 AM
Once in a while, a printed circuit board will have some extraneous bits of copper left on it when it is etched.  Some years ago, I ran into such a board in a Bachmann tender.  The rogue copper connected a couple of pins on the decoder socket.  As it happened, the particular pins were also connected together with the shorting plug, so there was no effect on dc operation.  However, DCC operation was affected.  That may be what has happened here and could be considered confirmed if the locomotive ran fine on dc with the shorting plug reinstalled.  My solution was exactly what you suggest - hard wiring the decoder, eliminating both the adapter board and the plugs and sockets.

As far as wire identification goes, an ohmmeter is your best friend.  The two wire plug carries power from the locomotive pickup wheels to the tender.  Your ohmmeter will tell you which pin connects to the left wheels and which to the right wheels.  You will probably have to use a fine piece of wire as a pin to connect the ohmmeter to the plug - a strand from a piece of #20 stranded wire is about the right size.  While you are checking pickup wheels, also check the ones in the tender to see which truck screw goes to the left rail and which to the right rail.

The four pin plug carries power from the decoder back to the locomotive.  Two wires go to the headlight, the other two go to the motor.  You can separate the two pairs of wires using the ohmmeter because they do not interconnect.  That is, from one motor lead to the other motor lead might be 20 ohms or so and from one lamp lead to the other lamp lead, it might be 50 ohms or so, but from either motor lead to either lamp lead, the resistance will be very high - a million ohms or more.  You can confirm which pair is the motor leads and which pair is the lamp by connecting a nine volt battery across them, again using fine wire as pins.  When the battery is connected to the motor leads, the wheels will turn.  When it is connected to the lamp leads, the head lamp will light.

I am confused by the "123 digitrax with the plugs on each end."  The DH123 has a nine pin plug on one end only and the DZ123 has no plug on the decoder itself.  But if it is the DZ123 that you are installing, consider installing it in the locomotive.  The advantage is that you need only 3 wires between the tender and the locomotive to make it work.  You need the red and black decoder wires to pick up power from the tender wheels and the yellow wire for the tender light.  You can connect the other side of the tender light to one of the wheels.  Even better, you can connect it to both wheels using a pair of diodes, one to each wheel.  Just make sure the diode cathodes (bar end) are both toward the lamp.  If there is no lamp in your tender backup light, just use a 12-16 volt grain-of-wheat bulb.

If you really want to, you can reduce the number of wires between locomotive and tender to just one.  Use just the locomotive wheels for decoder power pickup and use the tender wheels for just the backup light.  But with this scheme, you have only half as many pickup wheels serving the locomotive.  I personally prefer to use both sets of wheels to pick up for both.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 19, 2008, 02:45:33 AM
As I installed decoders in an athearn unit, that doesn't run either. dh123's have 1 plug  but the harnesses can have 1, 2 or 1 and clips like what is used on an athearn diesel. I am becoming convinced that I might have an address problem or power conflict. I use a MRC power pack for my switch machines. I have a dh123 hooked to the turn table and its working fine. I don't have a program track so that may possibly be a problem.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 19, 2008, 06:45:08 PM
I found a switch not in the right position so I got almost everything running. The Connie' is still dead. I'll have to get into it to check the connections. Nothing on it works.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: Yampa Bob on August 20, 2008, 12:36:32 AM
I recently installed a DH123 in a Roundhouse loco, which has a 9 pin socket.

The DH 123 sheet states "ready to run on address 03". (two digit address). Is this the same as the single digit "3" on my EZ Command?

I followed the instructions on page 5 of the EZC manual, using a programming track. It seems to be working ok on new address of "5", but the decoder instructions says to change CV01.

All my other locos are factory equipped, my first experience installing a decoder.  Am I missing something here?

Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 20, 2008, 01:52:51 AM
No, but I am. >:(
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: Jim Banner on August 21, 2008, 12:06:54 AM
Quote from: Yampa Bob on August 20, 2008, 12:36:32 AM
The DH 123 sheet states "ready to run on address 03". (two digit address). Is this the same as the single digit "3" on my EZ Command?

Yes.

Quote from: Yampa Bob on August 20, 2008, 12:36:32 AM
I followed the instructions on page 5 of the EZC manual, using a programming track. It seems to be working ok on new address of "5", but the decoder instructions says to change CV01.

That is exactly what you did by following the directions on page 5.  The buttons you pushed triggered a sequence of commands within your E-Z Command and they changed CV01 in the decoder to a value of 5.  And you didn't have to worry about scary things like CVs, programing modes, etc.

Quote from: Yampa Bob on August 20, 2008, 12:36:32 AM
I recently installed a DH123 in a Roundhouse loco, which has a 9 pin socket.

The DH 123 sheet states "ready to run on address 03". (two digit address).  Am I missing something here?

Yes - the complications of using a more comprehensive command station.  The more a command station can do, the more you have to learn to make it do it.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: Jim Banner on August 21, 2008, 12:09:37 AM
Quote from: pdlethbridge on August 19, 2008, 06:45:08 PM
The Connie' is still dead... Nothing on it works.

Still dead on dc with the dummy plug reinstalled or still dead only on DCC?
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 21, 2008, 01:09:54 AM
both ways, I got a new tender coming. I can use a 9 volt battery to check the engine.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: Yampa Bob on August 21, 2008, 01:48:17 AM
Thanks Jim
At first I thought about just trying to run the loco on address 3, but then I thought it would be prudent to use the instructions on page 5 with a programming track, in case the decoder was installed incorrectly.  Better safe than sorry.

I had a suspicion that the sequence might be changing the CV, but am relieved to have it confirmed.  The more I use the EZ Command the more I like it.  I especially like the one button transfer of control from one loco to another. 

Why don't the manufacturers follow the color convention in tenders for the wires leading to the loco,  orange / gray and white / blue?  How hard is that?

Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 21, 2008, 03:12:08 AM
It makes sense and is logical. The exact reasons why it won't be done. ::)
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: Yampa Bob on August 21, 2008, 05:03:50 AM
How about connecting the red and black pickup wires from the loco directly to the two wires leading back to the motor.  If it doesn't then run on DC, could be a poor plug in connection or something else in the loco. It it does run, that could indicate a bad pc board, so hard wire the sucker.  :D

All you need is a pair of jumpers with small alligator clips on each end.  I bought a bag of them in various colors from Radio Shack, very handy for bypassing suspected bad components, either directly or in conjunction with an r/c substitution box. 

I have some male connector plugs scrapped from vandy tenders, I soldered jumper wires from the 2 pin male over to the 2 pins leading back to the motor.  By plugging the adapter in, I can run the loco on DC without the tender.  Eventually I will build a small tank to hold a decoder, add a Kadee and use it for a yard switcher.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 21, 2008, 11:35:54 AM
I'm partial to crocodile clips, they hold better. ;D
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: Yampa Bob on August 22, 2008, 02:08:18 PM
The next time I visit the store, I will ask for crocodile clips.

On my last visit, I asked the clerk for 3/32" and  1/8" stereo plugs. The clerk said they are not made, adding she should know since she has worked there for 10 years.   Strange, as the parts drawer had tags for the items, but the bins were empty. 

Excuse number two:(after locating them at their warehouse)  "Oh, we have never stocked them, since they don't sell".

I said, "how can you sell them, or not sell them, if you never stocked them?"

Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: Steve G. on August 22, 2008, 04:23:08 PM
I had a similar problem installing a Digitrax decoder in a Doodlebug.  When I removed the old jumper plug from the PC board socket, the guts from the #1 socket connector came out with the plug.  Seems like the person that prepared the socket got a little too close to the connector with the cutoff wheel and damaged it. >:(

In my case it was the orange motor lead that was open.  I could get lights but the Doodlebug would not move.  Now, if a similar thing happened to your #4 or #8 (Red or Black track power circuits) you would get no track power to your decoder.  But, the decoder would work fine in another locomotive as mine did. ???

I removed the old 8-pin socket and replaced it with one that was carefully cut from the stock strip.  Why didn't I just solder direct?  I have an additional function only decoder in the Doodlebug for the passenger compartment illumination.  The plug and socket connection facillitates making changes and programming.  The motor decoder and the function decoder have the same address and you don't want to program them at the same time.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: Jim Banner on August 22, 2008, 04:42:48 PM
Quote from: Yampa Bob on August 22, 2008, 02:08:18 PM
On my last visit, I asked the clerk for 3/32" and  1/8" stereo plugs. The clerk said they are not made, adding she should know since she has worked there for 10 years.   Strange, as the parts drawer had tags for the items, but the bins were empty.

On your next visit, ask her if she has 2.5 and 3 millimeter stereo plugs.  Same thing, different measuring system.

By her logic, I am left wondering if this was the same woman who said she couldn't ship an item to Canada because she didn't do overseas shipping.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 22, 2008, 09:29:33 PM
Jim, it wasn't Canada, it was Mexico overseas. I think I found the connies problem. One of the 2 coils next to the capacitor was broken. 1 wire lead was off. I got an old athearn diesel going with a decoder. Ran pretty good, now I just have to put in lights and get everything insulated and taped and it will be good to go. I got a dz123 decoder for the 0-6-0 t and I'll try installing that this weekend. Jim, I'll be going to your site for instructions to do my Baby trainmaster. Excellent instructions, by the way. I also used the site for my connie. I checked the Engines plugs and they work fine so the tender is the problem. I'll be getting a new one shortly from the favorite spot.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: Jim Banner on August 23, 2008, 12:05:04 AM
PD, I am glad to hear you found the problem.  If you like, the coil can be replaced by a piece of solid wire but a new tender with a new board should do even better.

If memory serves, it was one of your postings that tuned me in to The Favorite Spot.  I ended up buying several trains worth of On30 locomotives and cars from him and found him great to deal with.  For that I thank you.  Now about my wife wanting to put a contract out on you ...
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: grumpy on August 23, 2008, 12:20:48 AM
Those crocodile clips can be tough on the fingers. They are a lot more aggresive than the alligator clips.
Don ;)
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 23, 2008, 02:30:53 AM
Australian croc clips are even worse :o
I got an athearn sw1500 going tonight. It worked great but when I installed lights the decoder went up in smoke. Not your typical electrical burning smell, but it did produce smoke and a black mark on the once new decoder. Poof Now I know that the gray goes on the bottom clip of an athearn diesel with it protected with electrical tape and orange on the top clip. Red to the metal l shaped bracket coming off the wheels and black to the light clip. After I got this far it was tested and ran real good. I put in front and back lights using the white wire for the front and yellow for the back. I had the proper resister installed for each light as well. The other leads off the bulbs were connected to the blue line. I had checked all connections but still got it fried. >:(
Jim, I tried to put a piece of wire at L1 but it still didn't work.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 25, 2008, 10:29:05 PM
Well, I was successful in screwing up another install. So now I'm bating 500. I got an athearn GP7 going last night. Works great. Do I have to program the lights to get them to work?
Today I spent about 3-4 hours trying a dz123 install in my Bachmann 0-6-0 T. It Was a no go. Things were going slow but okay until I popped the black wire off the decoder.  Looks like that will be in the shops for a while. It didn't go up in smoke, it didn't do anything. I think I'll stick to plug and play and athearn Installs. They seem to be the easiest for me. My problem is that I can't use the right hand like I want, can't grip tight enough and wires that small are very hard to hold.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: Jim Banner on August 26, 2008, 05:42:55 PM
PD, did you remember to isolate the Athearn headlight from its mounting bracket?  The bracket connects to the locomotive frame, which in turn connects to one set of wheels.  If you connect the blue wire to this bracket or to the outside shell of the headlight bulb base, it is the same as connecting the blue wire (an output wire) to the wheels (an input wire) which is a no-no.  Same goes for the rear light.

If you want to leave the headlight mounted that way, do not use the blue wire at all.  Just connect the white wire to the centre of the bulb base.  The return will be through the one set of wheels.  This has a down side if you are running some locomotives on address 0 (address 10 on E-Z Command) because the headlight will dim or brighten along with the speed of the dc locomotive.  Same goes for the rear light.

If this is what caused the demise of your decoder, then all you have done is blow one of the rectifier diodes on the decoder board.  Depending on the particular decoder, this may be anywhere from hard to dead easy to replace.

Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 26, 2008, 08:05:44 PM
Well, the lights were a add on and I had them totally insulated, including the resistor. The decoder was a digitrax  dh123. The burn mark was about 1/8" from connector on the high side of the connector. Burned right through the plastic wrap of the decoder. If the connector was in the 12 o'clock position, the burn was at 11 o'clock.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: Jim Banner on August 28, 2008, 12:05:10 AM
Quote from: pdlethbridge on August 26, 2008, 08:05:44 PM
Well, the lights were a add on and I had them totally insulated, including the resistor.
That puts a different slant on things.  Did you use a resistor because of a lamp current over 50 mA or to drop the voltage for a low voltage lamps or as a ballast resistor for an LED?  Did you use a similar resistor for the rear lights or were they different?

Did you happen to measure the lighting current before hooking up the lights?  It would be easy to say you should have -  but I won't because I say it to myself too often, usually right after things go sideways and I let the smoke out.  Speaking of which, I popped a DH123 decoder about a year ago.  I hope I can find it to see what is located at 11 o'clock.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 28, 2008, 04:05:45 AM
Jim,
I used the 12v 80mA from perfect with 33 ohm 1/4 w resistors. The athearn geep has the same set up but it runs, but no lights. I just got the Bachmann tender today for the connie and it is working great with the decoder, but no lights here either. Isn't there a rule 17 that has to be used for the lights? So far I have not programmed any of the decoders as I only have one unit running at any time. I got to look at the NCE manual to learn how to program. All I know now is use 3 for the decoder to see if it runs. I cut 1 end of the capacitor in the new tender and it works great. The tender was unlettered so I just swapped bodies with the other Maine Central tender. It seems like my computer building days, sometimes it would work, sometimes it wouldn't. The computers were much easier to deal with. These things are sooooo small. Paul
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 28, 2008, 08:52:01 AM
Bob, here's the link for the crocodile clips.
http://www.futurlec.com/Banana-Clips.shtml (http://www.futurlec.com/Banana-Clips.shtml)
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 29, 2008, 09:57:44 AM
After my 0-6-0 T install went up in smoke, I took a careful look at the innards of the engine. I carefully cut the circuit board out of the loco and had several wires coming in from different directions. There were 2 sets of green and red wires, the front set was curled under the circuit board and were for the front light. There is a tube just in front of the cylinder saddle that directs the light from the under floor bulb up to the front light. I guess if the lights get out of position slightly you'll not get a light. The other 2 wires are long and go to the floor under the cab. Again there is a tube to direct the light up and out. Attached to each motor brush are 2 resistors??? and I left them on for later use. The last 2 wires are red and black and come up from the wheel wipers. The motor is a tiny thing but works great. With the circuit board out, I'll try another install, sanes the circuit board.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: Jim Banner on August 30, 2008, 01:09:38 AM
Here is what a HD123 decoder looks like with its skin peeled off.

(http://members.shaw.ca/the.trainman/101_0441.GIF)

The four diodes form a bridge rectifier that convert the ac picked up by the wheels to dc to operate the motor, lights, and the decoder itself.  The two diodes on the left are connected from the left wheels (black wire) to the blue decoder wire (+ voltage for the lights) and to the decoder "ground."  The diodes on the right connect from the right wheels (red wire) to the blue wire and ground.  One of those left hand diodes blows if the blue wire accidentally connects to the right wheels.  And one of the right hand diodes blows if the blue wire accidentally connects to the left wheels.  When I say "connects to the right wheels" that includes connecting to anything that is connected to the right wheels.  Thus my concern about the headlight and rear light being isolated from the frame and from anything touching the frame.

The motor drivers each contain two transistors and some over current protection circuitry.  I believe the over current protection monitors the chip's temperature and shuts it down if the chip overheats.

The f0 light driver contains two solid state on/off switches to turn on the headlight and the rear light.  If the headlight or rear light draws too much current, this is the chip that pops.

The CPU or Microcontroller is the brains of the unit.  This is where the CV values are stored.  It also contains the firmware that makes the decoder do what it does.

The capacitor stores energy and allows the CPU to continue operating even during momentary power losses (think dirty track.)

A reminder to the uninitiated - the device shown in the photo is a "decoder."  It is NOT a "chip."  It contains half a dozen or more chips.  Each chip is a sliver of silicon (not silicone) with transistors, resistors etc. etched into it.  Each chip is encased in an epoxy package complete with external connections.  These are known as Integrated Circuits or ICs.  The decoder shown also contains diodes, resistors and a capacitor.  All these parts are soldered on to a double sided printed circuit board (PCB.)  The whole mess together makes a decoder.   
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 30, 2008, 01:18:28 AM
Great explanation! I've noticed a couple of things during my installs. Any resistors go on the blue wire, not the white or yellow. Whats with that? I have mine on the white and yellow wire. I tried to reset the factory settings on one decoder but could not do it by following their instructions of setting Cv 8 to 08.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 30, 2008, 08:53:45 AM
I want to try something. I have a decoder wired to the turntable. red and black take power to the decoder and the gray and orange go to the turntable motor. Now I still have a few wires left, blue, white and yellow. Could I use them to power the lights in the roundhouse? I have several 1.5 v bulbs wired in parallel in the roundhouse but all are connected to the same 2 wires for power. How much resistance do I need per bulb on this set up?
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: Jim Banner on August 30, 2008, 09:44:16 AM
On a simple installation where either the headlight is on or the rear light is on, the two lamps can share a resistor as long as the lamps are identical.  The shared resistor in this case has to be in series with the lead they share - the blue one.  They can share a resistor in this case because they do not use it at the same time.  But on an installation where the lamps are switched independently, you have to use a separate resistor for each lamp because the lamps might both/all be on at the same time.  In general, you also need separate resistors if the lamps have different ratings.

Putting the resistor(s) in series with the blue lead helps protect the diodes in case of a short.  For example, a 36 ohm resistor would limit the current to 1/3 amp if the down stream side of it was accidentally touching a frame that was connected to the wheels.  This would not pop a diode.  If the same resistor was in series with either the white or the yellow, it would still limit the current through the light driver to 1/3 amp in case of an accidental short but this is over 3 times the current limit of the driver.

In the case of a decoder with many function outputs, loss of one output is not a disaster.  You can just use another output and remap it to the control button of the faulty one.  However, loss of a diode adversely affects all the function outputs and the motor output.

The resistance per lamp depends on both the voltage rating and the current rating of the lamps.  It is equal to the amount of voltage you need to get rid of divided by the current the lamp draws.  For example, if your lamps were rated at 1.5 volts, 15 milliamps, and you were using an E-Z Command system, you would need to get rid of

Voltage drop = 17 - 1.5 = 15.5 volts.

Dividing this voltage drop by the current, the resistance required would be

Resistance = 15.5 / .015 =  1033 ohms.

A stock value of 1100 or 1200 ohms would be just fine.  However, if your lamp was rated 1.5 volts, 50 milliamps, and you were using a Digitrax Zephyr as your command satation the required resistance would be

Voltage drop = 12.0 - 1.5 = 10.5 volts

Resistance = 10.5 / .050 =  210 ohms.

You would probably choose a 220 ohm resistor.  Resistors also have power ratings, measured in watts.  This is equal to the voltage across the resistor multiplied by the current through it.  In the first case, the power dissipated by the resistor would be

power = 15.5 x .015 = .233 watts

You would choose a 1/2 watt resistor to make sure it ran cool.  In the second case, the power dissipated by the resistor would be

power = 10.5 x .050 = .525 watts.

You would want a one watt resistor in this case.

To recap

Resistance = voltage drop DIVIDED by the current.  Choose next larger standard resistance value.

Power = voltage drop MULTIPLIED by the current.  Use a resistor rated for double this power, or even more, to keep it from melting plastic.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 30, 2008, 09:54:27 AM
Ah nuts, My brain just cramped :'( I appreciate the info, but it really went over my head. I have 4 grain of rice 1.5v bulbs in the roundhouse. They are wired in parallel so if I loose one bulb I won't loose them all. I use the NCE power cab which has a 13.5VDC regulated, what ever that means, The decoder is a digitrax gh123.

An e-bay site that sells LEDs suggested that dividing your source voltage by .02 would give the resistor needed.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on August 31, 2008, 01:18:03 PM
While researching the use of bulbs and resitors on the net I found this info at tony's trains that might help someone besides myself.
http://www.tonystrains.com/technews/install-lamps-decoders.htm (http://www.tonystrains.com/technews/install-lamps-decoders.htm)
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: taz-of-boyds on August 31, 2008, 10:56:37 PM
Pdlethbridge,

The LED info will not help with the 1.5 v grain of rice light bulbs.  But you do have half of the info you need on the bulbs, that is the voltage (1.5v)  You also need the current of the bulbs.  Jim discusses current below, that is milliamps (or amps/1000), you will note in the text he says 15 milliamps, but in the equation it ends up as .015 because 15 milliamps = .015 amps.

So, you also need to know the current of the bulb when operated at 1.5 volts, then you can just follow Jim's equations, or we can show you with your example if you can find the current rating of your grain of rice bulbs.

Once you discover the current rating of one bulb there is one more thing, you will want to give each bulb its own resistor, because if you use one resistor for all four bulbs, and a bulb burns out, the other bulbs will likely go soon since they will be taking too much current.

Have fun carefully!
Charles
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on September 01, 2008, 01:03:34 AM
I was going to try method 3. I all ready have the parts ordered. It shows only 1 resistor for all the bulbs. http://www.tonystrains.com/technews/install-lamps-decoders.htm (http://www.tonystrains.com/technews/install-lamps-decoders.htm)
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: taz-of-boyds on September 04, 2008, 12:19:39 AM
Pdlethbridge,

You found some good stuff.  What I was warning you about is this, which is a simple circuit with one resistor:

"1.5 Volt Lamps - Wiring two 1.5 Volt lamps in parallel is not a good idea. When one lamp burns out, the other lamp immediately becomes bright and burns out shortly after."

The material you reference goes on to explain some more complex circuits that will allow bulbs to be wired in parallel.  Following the directions from your reference should work just fine.

Charles
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on September 04, 2008, 09:53:24 AM
I'll be trying it out today, just got the parts. I feel its better to ask than buy new light bulbs every day. ;D
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on September 04, 2008, 02:38:26 PM
I got the parts and checked everything. The lights were working before the install and the decoder was working as well but when I installed the circuit for the bulbs, nothing. The turntable still works but the lights don't. I have the NCE power cab that has the light switch right on the controller so I can turn lights on and off if I need to.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: taz-of-boyds on September 05, 2008, 09:10:36 PM
Do the lights operate while the turn table is moving?  Could you provide the exact details of the way you have the lights wired in the circuit to the controller?
Charles
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on September 06, 2008, 06:27:14 AM
I followed the step 3 instructions to the letter. While the turntable was moving I tried the lights and the turntable slwed a touch and when I shut them of the turntable sped up a bit. I used the blue and white wires off the decoder. My thoughts are that its working, but the circuit doesn't provide enough current to light the bulbs.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: Jim Banner on September 06, 2008, 02:30:42 PM
How much current do those lights draw?  If you don't have a meter to measure it, seriously consider buying one.  You can get a digital voltmeter (DVM) that measures resistance, voltage and current for about $15, which is less than the price of the cheapest decoder.

DVMs are pretty near bullet proof.  A typical analogue VOM (Volt-Ohm-Milliameter) will go up in smoke if you have it on the wrong range when you go to make a measurement but with most DVMs the worst you can do is blow a cheap, replaceable fuse inside the meter.  And that only happens when it is set for measuring currents and try to measure a voltage.

If you (or anyone else) does not know how to use one, let me know and I will post some kind of primer. 
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on September 06, 2008, 02:47:44 PM
I'm not at all familiar with the current draw but I do know that a  Rayovac alkaline aa 1.5 volt battery would light them all.
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on September 06, 2008, 02:57:57 PM
I've added another accessory to the layout, a Digitrax ds64 stationary decoder, to run my switch machines. I bought the recommended power supply ( ps12 ) for it. I wired it last night but didn't get to run it until this morning. Works great! I'm only using the first 2 outputs and I'm controlling 4 atlas code 83 switch machines with it, 2 crossovers. I'll get 2 more switches installed later, but if you want to control your switches, thats the way to go. That you can have routing, makes it a good investment. What I paid in switch machine controllers, which didn't work that reliably,  would have bought the ds64
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: Jim Banner on September 06, 2008, 03:06:04 PM
So the lights could be drawing several amps.  The down side of 1.5 volt lamps is that for the same light output, they must draw more amps.  Compared to a 12 volt lamp, a 1.5 volt lamp with the same output will draw 8 times as much current.

I am wondering how you calculated the dropping resistor for these lights without knowing the current.  
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on September 06, 2008, 03:09:59 PM
current to me is something that goes on toast. I don't know a thing about basic electricity. Which surprises me. If you saw the control panel I built for my brother and what I'm building now, you'd see why it surprises me. These are the bulbs I have.
Grain of Rice Clear 2.2mm (1.5V) Replacement Light Bulbs from Model Power
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: taz-of-boyds on September 07, 2008, 12:01:10 AM
Pdlethbridge,

What is the value in ohms of the optional resistor you included in your circuit.  The instructions indicate you need to know the current.

Charles
Title: Re: Decoder installation problems
Post by: pdlethbridge on September 07, 2008, 12:26:42 AM
51 ohm 1/2 watt for 4 bulbs according to tonys trains.
http://www.tonystrains.com/technews/install-lamps-decoders.htm (http://www.tonystrains.com/technews/install-lamps-decoders.htm)