Hello Bach Man,
I've sent my new (purchased in late June 2008) Spectrum 4-8-2 Heavy Mountain to your repair department for warranty repair of defects due to poor (or incomplete) design and inferior materials. The tiny and fragile wires from the tender to the locomotive have broken and the "wipers" (electrical pick-ups) on the drive wheels are bent and broken.
Perhaps you could suggest to the engrineering and mfg. depts. that they resolve the following issues:
1. Use tougher wires and connectors and/or provide strain relief between the locomotive and tender. When the loco and tender separate (during a derail) the tender is dragged by the wires which puts stress on them and causes them to break at the connectors. Some sort of "safety chain" or perhaps a "c" clip on the tender draw bar post to prevent it from coming off the draw bar would resolve the issue.
2. Use thicker and less brittle "wipers" to carry voltage from the drive wheels to the motor, etc.
I'm 61 yrs. old and the only person who has operated this locomotive. It has not been abused ...just operated. When it is serviceable, it is the smoothest and strongest single locomoitve in my line-up. Only a Proto 2000 A&B unit (both powered) can match it for pulling power. It is a beautiful example of the prototype however, the above listed defects need to be addressed before I can recommend it to anyone else.
I'm very dissappointed in the short life span of these parts and it does not bode well for future sales of your Spectrum line. I expected to get far longer service from this locomotive before it needed repair. Please bring these issues to your company management.
Sincerely,
Garry
Garry,
I think most of us with modern steam models want the loco-tender connections to be better. So far nothing has worked as well as it should from any company. (My opinion.)
Gene
Why ask Bachmann to add a "retainer" (which would also add to the cost) when you can do it yourself? Just slip a short piece of 1/16" silicone fuel tubing over the drawbar post and you won't have any disconnects and broken wires.
I always thread the post a bit with a 4-40 or 6-32 steel nut just to make the tubing "grab" the post better. A few strokes with a thin file will accomplish the same thing. I also bend the drawbar so it will ride in the center of the post, so as to not create any up or down pressure on the tender front, which can cause derails.
The wires have to be thin and flexible for the same reason. Heavier wires would be cumbersome and unwielding. The plugs are also necessarily small and must be handled with care.
If the wipers are bent or broken, they either came that way, in which case you should return it to the store for a refund, or perhaps you took it apart and didn't assemble it correctly. Heavier wipers would add extra friction and increase rolling resistance. Stiffer wipers would also inhibit the natural kinematic side to side movement of the drivers which makes the Bachmann locos track so well on tight curves.
I have 4 Bachmann 2-8-0 Connies, and have never had the problems you describe. There are so many good things to be said about Bachmann quality, I don't let minor details get in the way of my enjoyment. By the way, I'm 70, and as a craftsman, I have learned over the years that nothing is ever perfect, but a modeler can always improve it with a little ingenuity.
Dear Garry,
I'll forward your concerns.
Have fun!
the Bach-man
I support Garry and his comments regarding pick ups on the 4-8-2, in my case both the light and heavy as they both use the same chassis.
The pick ups are too flimsy and are easily bent out of shape.
Heavy wipers will not adversly effect tracking but will improve electrical pick up.
Yampa Bob,
Thanks for the tip on the shrink tubing. It's a great idea and I happen to have the ideal size on hand.
I understand your point about the flexibility of the wires but, there are other wires and connectors available that would meet the flexibility and durability requirements. I modified an "old" model War Baby 4-8-4 (with split chasis) for DCC and mounted both motor and sound decoders in the tender which required a pair of wires from the locomotive to the tender. I happened to have an old pair of lightweight ear phones and stole the wire I needed from them. It's very flexible and much sturdier than that supplied by the factory (strain relief applied at both ends). I would be happy to pay a small increase in price for more durable wire and connectors.
However, the bottom line is strain relief. Why should we have to provide something the factory should provide? It probably all comes down to money but, the little saved in NOT providing it costs them double or triple in warranty repair. How many folks buy these locomotives and don't have the skills or know-how to apply the modification you recommend?
On the issue of the wipers, a more durable alloy would allow them to keep thickness the same. In any case, I still say they are poor quality. Maybe the wipers on my locomotive were from a bad batch. If you had seen the condiion of them you would likely agree with me. I certainly appreciate the fact that they provide electrical pick-up on all wheels and the tender but, the locatioin of the wipers (on the outside of the inner drive wheels) was not well thought out. They are vulnerable to damage when (not if) a derail occurs.
As I said before, when the loco is working it is a beautiful piece of machinery and I have enjoyed owning and running it. However, when I buy a company's "best" product I expect good quality and longevity. I got neither. These two issues seriously detract from an otherwise great product.
RJ
Quote from: rowdyjoe on September 05, 2008, 11:53:09 AM
Yampa Bob,
Thanks for the tip on the shrink tubing. It's a great idea and I happen to have the ideal size on hand.
I understand your point about the flexibility of the wires but, there are other wires and connectors available that would meet the flexibility and durability requirements. I modified an "old" model War Baby 4-8-4 (with split chasis) for DCC and mounted both motor and sound decoders in the tender which required a pair of wires from the locomotive to the tender. I happened to have an old pair of lightweight ear phones and stole the wire I needed from them. It's very flexible and much sturdier than that supplied by the factory (strain relief applied at both ends). I would be happy to pay a small increase in price for more durable wire and connectors.
However, the bottom line is strain relief. Why should we have to provide something the factory should provide? It probably all comes down to money but, the little saved in NOT providing it costs them double or triple in warranty repair. How many folks buy these locomotives and don't have the skills or know-how to apply the modification you recommend?
On the issue of the wipers, a more durable alloy would allow them to keep thickness the same. In any case, I still say they are poor quality. Maybe the wipers on my locomotive were from a bad batch. If you had seen the condiion of them you would likely agree with me. I certainly appreciate the fact that they provide electrical pick-up on all wheels and the tender but, the locatioin of the wipers (on the outside of the inner drive wheels) was not well thought out. They are vulnerable to damage when (not if) a derail occurs.
As I said before, when the loco is working it is a beautiful piece of machinery and I have enjoyed owning and running it. However, when I buy a company's "best" product I expect good quality and longevity. I got neither. These two issues seriously detract from an otherwise great product.
RJ
I know many owners of Spectrums agree with your complaint concerning the weakness of the current electrical connectors between the engine and tender.
Of the various steamers I have I would judge the BLI as having the best electrical connector sets, with the Proto next and the IHC next with the Spectrums in last place.
Having said that I still consider the Spectrums excellent units overall. I my self would not stop purchasing the engines because of this defect.
Are you saying that because of the electrical connectors you will now cease purchasing any additional Spectrum steamers?
I will not dispute the view that these aspects of spectrum locos could be slightly better designed or manufactured, however, I must say that niether the wipers or the plugs/wires have been a problem for me.
I have developed a a set of standard modifications for most of the spectrum locos I own, some of which do address issues with the wires and plugs.
Carefull handling has never caused any problem with the wipers, although a few have needed adjustment right out of the box.
I add weight to all my spectrum tenders to help with preventing the wires from being a cause of derailments. I also modifiy many of the drawbars to allow more room for the wires. the Heavy Mountain in particular gets a "dip" right where the plugs are to provide free movement.
I have said before that the manufacturers/designers did not intend these locos to be repeatedly assembled and disassembled, their vision was more like, carefully plug it in, put it on the layout, and leave it there! This solves the problem of the plugging and unplugging - or - simply take your time and be carefull. In all my years in this hobby (since 1967), I have never seen any well detailed model stand up to lots of handling.
These wires are the necessary evil of DCC and/or improved pickup schemes, so I will live with them.
Sheldon
Garry
You mentioned "shrink" tubing, that is perhaps an option but would require heat which might melt the post. I was referring to the 1/16" I.D. silicone tubing used for model plane and car fuel lines. With the post slightly roughened, the tubing (about 1/8" long) will stay put. Being somewhat clear, it is barely noticeable.
On the rare occasion the plugs need to be removed, I find fingernails over the raised edges work well. I never subject the plugs to any tool.
As a matter of interest, on my Roundhouse vintage locos, the drawbar is "permanently" attached at both ends with screws, and the wires run straight through the tender with no plugs. Very nice setup, after my usual preliminary inspection, I put them on the track, no hassle at all. After hours or running, not a single derail.
If I didn't intend to buy more of the Spectrum line of locos I wouldn't bother with recommendations to make them better. My Heavy Mountian is the only Spectrum loco I own (although I have a "standard" quality also) and I'm impressed with the detail, smoothness, and overall performance of the loco. However, I'm disappointed in the porr durability of the parts I disussed.
RJ
Quote from: rowdyjoe on September 08, 2008, 03:39:42 AM
If I didn't intend to buy more of the Spectrum line of locos I wouldn't bother with recommendations to make them better. My Heavy Mountian is the only Spectrum loco I own (although I have a "standard" quality also) and I'm impressed with the detail, smoothness, and overall performance of the loco. However, I'm disappointed in the porr durability of the parts I disussed.
RJ
I totally agree with you on the aspect of the electrical plug ins for the tender and engine.
Surely it would not add significantly to the cost to upgrade the connections. Hopefully, Bachmann is listening.
I know of a few local members of the model railroad club here who sent their steamers back for repair. Actually make that replacement, when canvassed no one in the club is aware of repairs being made, only replacements. Those who sent in a note did get back their original steam engines that had been custom painted or weathered.
PN,
Gee, that news is sort of disappointing. Instead of replacement, I was hoping they would repair it and improve the durability of those two issues. The wipers need to be moved in toward the axles to protect them in case of a derail. They should not be located where they are now ... it's like they planned for the wipers to get beat up and eventually break. The engineer who came up with that briliant (not) idea should be looking for a new job ... maybe in a clothes pin factory.
Yampa Bob's fix of putting a piece of tubing (snug fitting) on the draw bar pin is a very easy fix for anyone to do but, we shouldn't have to go to that trouble. The factory should provide a removable "keeper" of some sort.
If anyone has a fix for the "wiper" issue, please let me know. If they replace rather than repair mine, I'll need some help doing the modification. It's such a nice locomotive and I'd like to keep it working for a long time.
RJ
Bachmann's service department doesn't have the facilities to make these modifications, or do custom work to your specifications. The most they can do is replace parts with OEM, or replace the locomotive.
When I got my first Spectrum locomotive, I didn't just take it out of the box and throw it on the track. First it went to my workbench for a careful analysis of the various design and engineering features. From the very start, I noticed the loose drawbar and thought this had to be addressed. First I threaded the post and installed a small nut. That was a fix, but looked unsightly. I replaced the nut with the silicon tubing and problem solved.
The pilot truck was binding on the spring, so I removed the spring and added a touch of light oil to the pivot bolt.
Then I noticed the front of the tender was a bit "light on the wheels", so I took the tender apart and added some weight to bring it up to NMRA recommendations.
When the loco was finally placed on the layout, I was confident there would be no problems.
The point I'm making is, as modelers we can't just assume that the loco will arrive in perfect condition, or meet our engineering standards. Until such time as Bachmann "upgrades" their locos to your specs, the fixes are very easy and cost practically nothing.
I can't address the wiper issue, as I only have Connie 2-8-0 and the wipers have performed perfectly. However, you mentioned that the wipers get bent after a derail. If your trackwork is correct and the loco set up properly beforehand including adding weight to the tender, you shouldn't have any derails.
I applaud Yampa Bob for his approach to model railroading.
I think very few modelers take the time to know and understand how these engines work, or how a little bit of tweaking will help alleviate running problems.
If you search the forums you will find that model railroaders are tweaking other brands of model railroad as well. It is not just Spectrum steamers that are requiring alterations in order to maximize their running capabilities.
I have had the same problem my Spectrum 2-8-0 had the wires pull out when it was on the front of a heavy train then derailed it will be going back to Bachmann. I also have a light 4-8-2 in Frisco that has pickups that short but this one is no longer made so I will have to figure out how to fix it. I agree that this should be changed.
PN,
Thank you for the kind comments. At my age I seldom receive accolades from others.
I suppose my pre-operation procedures are a holdover from many years designing and flying radio controlled airplanes, and from flying full scale as a private pilot. A pilot never takes off without a thorough pre-flight inspection, whether a model or full scale.
Economically, there is a limit to the amount of engineering and design a factory can apply to its products and keep the price competitive. Throughout time, it has been proven that a modeler can always improve the engineering and make the product better, at least to his/her satisfaction.
The best connection I have seen is on the Athern Challenger 2-6-6-2. The drawbar snaps into a pocket in the tender. It would take an extremely strong pull to separate the two.
Don
I've been involved in this hobby since May this year and was not aware of the defects that some locomoitves come with from the mfg. I expected to pay my money and throw them on the rails and have it run for at least a year providiing regular preventive maint. is performed. Looks like I expected too much in the case of Bachman steam locomotives.
Now, I'm a bit more experienced and a tiny bit wiser and will perform the inspection that you describe. I have some mechanical skill but, I wouldn't call myself a craftsman. I'm a "remove and replace" kind of guy. I do very little parts fabricating or repairing. I can make a decent solder joint as I've had training and experience at it but, these tiny wires are a challenge even with a quality soldering staation, small tip, and small solder.
I just performed a baisc "field strip" of a Proto 2000 FA1 unit to find and repair a short circuit. I found one broken wire and resoldered it but, that didn't seem to fix the short. I sprayed the heck out of the contacts, motor brushes, etc. with electrosolve and tested it and found that the probelm was gone. I lubricated all moving parts and reassembled the loco and ran it with the "B" unit for at least an hour this evening.
I shouldn't complain too loudly because I bought this locomotvie at a very good price on-line. However, I didn't expect it have poor quality parts and require early repair. It is, after all, one of Bachman's "top of the lline" locos.
I'm not asking Bachman to make custom modifications to my locomotive, I'm asking them to improve two important parts on this product. Yampa Bob has given "us" the "fix" for protecting the fragile wires but, the issue of the unprotected and fragile "wipers" is still there. Will I have to return it for repair again in 2 months? I certainly hope not BUT, I will if that's what it takes to keep it running. I LIKE this locomotive and want to keep it in serviceable condition for a long time. I'd also like to run it on my layout often ... like everyday for an hour or more. If it won't stand up to that, I won't be buying Bachman products anymoe.
RJ
If one takes the time to search this forum it is evident that Bachmann is aware of these deficiencies. Members of this forum have in the past referred many times to the problems.
The problems users/customers have had relating to the electrical plug in, the post an bar issue as well as the problem with the wipers is documented.
Some of the problems such as the post and bar and electrical leads can be cured by repositioning the electrical leads and by bending the bar in some instances and of course the use of tubing to keep the post from separating from the bar.
I am confident that Bachmann will address/correct these deficiencies in due time. As an owner of a number of Spectrum steam engines I at least have a warranty that will ensure my engines are replaced/repaired as required. Yes, there is a cost involved but given the overall quality of the Spectrum steam engines and their price in relation to competitive brands I am very satisfied with the Spectrum engines.
I have over two dozen Spectrum Steamers and have had problems with a couple. On the other hand I have several Proto steamers and essentially have had problems with ALL of them in respect to running/quality issues that could not be resolved. I would also note that the street price for the Proto Heritage steam engines is about double that of a Spectrum steam engine.
I wouldn't call these issues "defects" exactly, perhaps "under engineered" might be more appropriate.
As PN mentioned, Bachmann is aware of the complaints from this forum, but remember we represent only a tiny fraction of all modelers. Any consideration of making upgrades has to be based on the number of complaints overall. How many complaints? Perhaps thousands, or the factory might be prompted if sales for a particular product were on the decline.
Are we all willing to pay an extra $10-$20 or more to cover the factory cost of re-tooling just to correct a couple minor problems? I'm not, especially when the fixes are so simple.
However, Bachmann did make a major design change in the wipers on the Connies a few years ago. On the original version, you had to remove the entire bottom/wiper assembly as one unit, which caused a lot of damaged wipers by unsuspecting or inexperienced modelers. Now you simply remove a cover plate for access to lubricate the drive gears, without disturbing the wipers.
So don't despair, if enough people complain about the wiper issue you mention, I'm sure Bachmann will eventually take heed and make necessary corrections.
Like Bob says, not really "defects", the locos do work, defect implies that they don't.
Since so many are harping on this, I will repeat some of my comments.
I do not consider any of the wipers defective or inadequate. Never had a operational problem. I have had a few that needed adjustment out of the box, which I believe was just poor handling during packing.
As for the wires, they can effect operation if not carefully positioned, and, I do ajust/modifiy drawbars and add weight to tenders in addition to careful positioning of the wires when placing locos on the the track. Adding weight to tenders is necessary not just because of the wires, but because I pull (and push) long trains.
Again, at the risk of offending a few, these are not toys, they are delicate operating scale models. If you want toys, dig deeper in your your pocket and buy Marklin, it lives up to the "plug and play" ideal.
As for keeping drawbars connected, I really don't get that one. while I do modify somedraw bars for better wire clearance, I always disliked the old fixed drawbars used by Mantua and others. I have never had a drawbar come uncoupled unless a loco derailed.
In the recent Kadee news letter, "Sam the Answer Man" just recently commented on the lack of basic modeling skills by many new people today that contact him for info on installing Kadee couplers - and most importantly the seeming lack of interest by many in learning these skills.
This has been discussed on here at great length in the past as well. I will say plainly that the "plug and play" mentality has been a direct cause for me personally to offer less advice on this board than I have in the past.
I have been building model trains since the young age of 11 some 40 years ago and have willingly offered my experiance to others, but recently many new people to the hobby (new people of all ages) don't want to learn how to "do" anything, they just want to take it out of the box and play. Again to them I suggest Marklin, it's designed for exactly that.
To the orginal poster of this thread I have a simple message, one Bob has stated as well - at the current street price of Bachmann Spectrum locos (and other brands as well), they represent an extremely good value compared to days gone by in this hobby. I don't want them made "better" (read more toylike and industructable) at a higher cost or a loss of detail and "fineness".
Since I have said this much, I will add one more thing, which I have said on here before. None of the other (mostly higher priced) brands are without problems similar to the ones mentioned in this post.
A few examples:
PCM Reading T-1 - I had to grind the front edge of the tender frame to allow the drawbar proper swing in the close position and had to add weight in the empty smoke box (left empty for a future smoke unit - how silly) to get it to track correctly.
Athearn 2-8-2 - completely disassembed and rewired and weighted for balance and pulling power.
Proto FA - Added weight for proper balance and replaced defective wheelsets with free replacements from manufacturer.
Proto GP7 - same wheel set issue.
BLI 2-6-6-4 N&W class A - disassembed tender and repositioned wires as too much wire was sicking out of tender from factory. Reworked pilot to intall working front coupler that did not stick out too far. Purchased extra tender from BLI and wired for DC only operation as orginal DCC dual mode operation was not acceptable/compatable with my control system.
And I could go on and on.....
Sheldon
Like Sheldon, the longer I remain on this board, the less I am inclined to comment on these issues.
Anyone can learn basic modeling skills if they have the desire. Crafting is crafting, trains is just another medium. Some say to me "Well, Bob, I don't have your modeling skills". Vince Lombardi once told me "There's no patent on brains, we all have one."
For those willing and eager to learn the skills, I will bend over backwards to help them. I have already devoted hundreds of hours writing tutorials for this forum. Others can either learn from them or ignore them, it's their choice.
Some modelers on this forum are severely disabled, but they continue to build and craft to the best of their ability. So if you still have 2 good eyes and 2 good hands, learn to use them.
If someone doesn't like Bachmann quality, there are other options. Buy any other brand you wish, but don't expect the grass to be greener on the other side of the fence.
Yup, this is one of my "tell it like it is" days. I'll try to be nicer tomorrow. :D
Bob
I know people with two good eyes who are blind.
Don
I have one eye and poor sight in the other.
Does it stop me? No, though sometimes it can be &$%^&^ frustrating.
As many of you know, I take perfectly good (and expensive) Spectrum, Genesis and P2K steam locos and take a jeweller's saw to them. I have never sent a locomotive back for warranty work.
Like Sheldon, I fix all the problems myself, even the broken gears on my Genesis 4-6-2s and 2-8-2s.
Bent or damaged pick wires? Pah! Nothing to it. Fix 'em yourself with a pair of fine point tweasers. Learning to be a model railroader rather than someone who plays with toy trains is what it all comes down to.
Follow Bob's advice only I'll go further, if you don't like Bachmann's quality or Athearn's quality or P2K's quality, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Sometimes I think the current generation is cursed by the need for instant gratification without having the patience to actually learn how to actually do anything . It's a shame that parents don't encourage children to take care of themselves and do things , instead of being waited on head and foot. When did having mechanical and other manual skills become unneccessary in a technically advanced civilization.
One time I built a house in a week with a pair of tweezers and a flat rock and I had two broken arms and a headache. ;D
Sheesh, you guys take the cake. Your idea of quality went out with high-button shoes and is far below what is acceptable today. If you want to repair your locos yourself instead of return them for warranty work, knock yourselves out. As for me, I'll return it to the mfg. for warranty repair and when the warranty runs out, I'll fix it myself ... if needed.
Some of you more "experienced" model railroaders have been a large help to many folks new to the hobby. However, your superiority complex really turns people off. Perhaps it's time you passed the baton to someone who can keep their ego in check. Thanks for the help but, since it comes with the attitude ... there's the door. Don't let it hit you on the way out.
Frankly, I don't know why I bothered posting anything here. I should have listened to my firends who have posted here. They were right. All I got in return were snide remarks made by egotistical know-it-alls who look down on folks who believe in making the mfg. responsible for the defects in their product.
Sincerely,
RJ
Joe,
Yeah, I admit to being a bit overbearing at times. It comes with old age, and I get tired of people bashing Bachmann products. It's nothing personal.
It's not a perfect world, and in life we just have to roll with what's thrown at us. Believe me, I know. I lightened up my last post.
Have fun.
Joe,
A few simple thoughts:
It is rather nice of our host to even allow you to criticize their products, sorry we offended you by not agreeing with you.
In your amittedly short time in the hobby what makes you an expert on acceptable quality? Just be cause you and a few others had a problem? I know, "always the equipment, never the operator".
This is so typical these days:
Someone drives an SUV too fast with under inflated tires but it is the manufacturer's fault when it rolls over.
Someone holds up a bank and shoots the teller and the gun manufacturer is at fault.
Someone spills their coffee while driving and it is the fast food stores fault.
etc,etc,.......
I own a piano, it is not maker's fault I cannot play it. I own a table saw and I can and have built many things, the table saw did not make me able to do that.
Again, if these delicate models are not within your skill set or you have no interest in learning these skills, I suggest you try Marklin, world class plug and play toy trains of the highest quality.
I know you think this is an arrogant view, but it is no more arrogant then your assumption that your short experiance with model trains is equal to my 40 years.
If your not happy, vote with your wallet, it has always been more effective than words. There are many products out there that do not live up to my engineering standards, front wheel drive cars for example, so I don't buy them - that does not make them "defective".
Sheldon
As one who has spent more than half a century playing with steam locomotives from N-scale up to full scale, the only ones I ever found that you could just run and run and run with no twiddling was the clunky old Lionels. Other than them, all the other locomotives require three things - cleaning, oiling and adjusting. Only the size of the tools change.
In H0 I have a number of different brands of steamers and they all need regular cleaning, lubing and adjusting. I have got in the habit of cleaning locomotive and tender pickups, then adjusting them and finally oiling them and the rest of the locomotive every time the wheels need cleaning. As far as derailments go, every derailment gets written down then investigated and all necessary repairs made. Sometimes it is just cleaning the wheels but other times it could be anything from reaming the trucks, replacing wheel sets, regauging wheels, adjusting couplers or kin pins, or repairing some fault in the tracks. But derailments are never just ignored. Some of my model railroading buddies consider these efforts as excessive but then marvel at how we can go through whole operating sessions without a single derailment and never having to push a stalled locomotive.
Joe, I am not telling you or anyone else how to run your railroad. Just pointing out what is possible. For me, one of the pleasures I get from my model railroad is the fact that it does run well. In fact, rule #3 in my railway's rule book says "When a choice must be made between looking good and running well, running well will always be selected. Running well will not be compromised for any reason."
Joe.
Perhaps I did go a bit overboard but one does get a bit fed up with constantly hearing people complaining about what are simple fixes that any so-called "model railroader" should be quite capable of fixing.
Even "Model Railroader" in it's reviews of several Bachmann Spectrum steam locos have mentioned bent or damaged pick-ups straight from the box and commented on their rather frail and exposed positions on the back of the driving wheel rims. However, in the same reviews they have stated that this was easily fixable with careful use of fine point, tweezers.
As Sheldon said, these are delicate models and even with careful shipping and handling, and you know how often that doesn't happen, minor misalignments are bound to happen.
Sending a loco back because the pick-ups are slightly out of alignment falls under the heading of "Routine Maintenance" and should well within the skill level of any modeller. It's not a candidate for a warranty return.
Sorry if I was a bit too hard on you.
Quote from: rogertra on September 16, 2008, 07:52:27 PM
Joe.
Perhaps I did go a bit overboard but one does get a bit fed up with constantly hearing people complaining about what are simple fixes that any so-called "model railroader" should be quite capable of fixing.
Even "Model Railroader" in it's reviews of several Bachmann Spectrum steam locos have mentioned bent or damaged pick-ups straight from the box and commented on their rather frail and exposed positions on the back of the driving wheel rims. However, in the same reviews they have stated that this was easily fixable with careful use of fine point, tweezers.
As Sheldon said, these are delicate models and even with careful shipping and handling, and you know how often that doesn't happen, minor misalignments are bound to happen.
Sending a loco back because the pick-ups are slightly out of alignment falls under the heading of "Routine Maintenance" and should well within the skill level of any modeller. It's not a candidate for a warranty return.
Sorry if I was a bit too hard on you.
Re-reading the original post the primary problem with the engine was the separation of the wire from the electrical clips.
This certainly would be reason to return the unit for replacement for most users. I know for certain should the wiring separate from the clips that my engines will be sent in for replacement. Until then I will certainly ensure the wiring is not hanging up nor has the bar separated from the post.
My Dad was a mule skinner in his youth. When someone asked why he carried a club in the wagon he said "Sometimes I have to get the mules' attention, then they drive just fine".
As Gene mentioned awhile back, some lessons are hard learned. We experienced modelers tend to be a bit harsh on newcomers, but it's not a matter of arrogance. We have "been there" and hope to keep others from making the same mistakes we made.
So newcomers, if we hit you with the club, it's to get your attention. If you won't listen to the voices of experience, all we can do is wish you luck.
Roger T. I know the feeling.
Have you ever skinned a cat?
To skin a cat you don't need a club. You need some patience and a cat key.
Don ;)
Quote from: rowdyjoe on September 16, 2008, 12:17:29 AM
One time I built a house in a week with a pair of tweezers and a flat rock and I had two broken arms and a headache. ;D
Sheesh, you guys take the cake. Your idea of quality went out with high-button shoes and is far below what is acceptable today. If you want to repair your locos yourself instead of return them for warranty work, knock yourselves out. As for me, I'll return it to the mfg. for warranty repair and when the warranty runs out, I'll fix it myself ... if needed.
Some of you more "experienced" model railroaders have been a large help to many folks new to the hobby. However, your superiority complex really turns people off. Perhaps it's time you passed the baton to someone who can keep their ego in check. Thanks for the help but, since it comes with the attitude ... there's the door. Don't let it hit you on the way out.
Frankly, I don't know why I bothered posting anything here. I should have listened to my firends who have posted here. They were right. All I got in return were snide remarks made by egotistical know-it-alls who look down on folks who believe in making the mfg. responsible for the defects in their product.
Sincerely,
RJ
There certainly seems to be very active segment that seems to have taken over this forum.
I am surprised that there appears to be little or no activity on behalf of Board Administrators deleting the many needless/superfluous repetive postings. What ammuses me though is how they strive to give examples that prove/support their view.
Then again I guess it would be possible that they are the Board Administrators.
I have a HO Richmond 4-4-0 and a low driver 4-6-0. They are both well made and operate just fine. The details are a little fragile but this is to be expected with a model this size. I have snagged the sander pipes a couple times because I was impatient. The connectors and wires are just fine. I have had mine apart a few time while converting to sound decoders. A gentle pry with a jewelers screw drive and the connectors pop out of the socket. There is a possibility that my definition of "handling gently" is different from other peoples version.
Rich
Dear PN,
As long as the posts are basically positive and friendly, they will stay. The threads I've deleted have devolved into unfriendliness and personal attacks.
Have fun!
the Bach-man
Perhaps I am one of those who tend to speak in "parables". When I was a kid, I often didn't understand the principles my Dad was trying to teach me, so he would give an example to make his point. He taught me kindness, generosity, courtesy and respect for others, but most of all discipline, by real world examples.
The way I see it, we're a bunch of modelers sitting around the clubhouse discussing trains. Sure, we wander away from the topic at times, as in any conversation, but we always accomplish the "Prime Directive", helping others find the answers.
I, for one, have no delusions of grandeur, nor am I seeking any stature on the board. My purposes in being here are for relaxed fellowship and helping where I can, but I like to also have fun. If you notice, Mr B. always signs his replies: "Have fun !"
Bob, you can take your crown off and get down from the throne and join the rest of us Pius-less humans,
Gee, I've been "de-throned". >:(
The only throne I have is in the reading room. I have been "crowned" a few times for disobeying my wife. :D
Haven't we all ;D but not by your wife, of course :-X
See my post "New 2-8-0 Woes and Fix". To cure one poor running and noise problem with a non-sound DCC 2-8-0, I ended up removing the power wipers from the in-board drivers. The outboard drivers and tender wheels supply plenty of power contact. Mine were badly mis-shapen in manufacture or assemby, beyond repair. Remving the in-board axle contacts also GREATY simplifies reassmebling the bottom end of the engine. If you've tried, you know what i mean!
Understand, this modification likely voids your warranty, but it was less hassle than boxing it up and sending it back. This poor lockey had even more severe problems (missing worm gear shaft bearings allowing the worm gear shaft to wobble), but with some patient, enjoyable engineering, The B&O 2781 is as fine a steam loco as any now.
If you find the driver spur gear to slip on the worm gear, make sure it has bearings of some sort in place. I retrofited mine with K&S brass tubing that fit perfectly, and consider removing the springs from the #4 and #2 axles. The springs have too high a spring rate and deform the thin plastic drive axle bearing plate enough to allow the worm gear to not mesh with the driver axle spur gear. Once "rigid" I had no nore slipping gear problem, it tracks fine over 0 percent to 2 percent to 0 percent grade transitions and handles my tightest curves (18") still like a champ.