I just got the F7B DCC/Sound unit for my Intermountain F7A DCC\Sound Great Northern. Using the instructions from Bachmann EZ Command Control's DVD, I had no problem re-programming it from Address 3 to the Address 1 for my locomotive. I have yet to measure whether or not the B unit increases the speed of my passenger train. Initially, running it & my Spectrum EMD SD-45 freight train slowed the freight, but, after a while, it re-gained some speed. I still run the 8-car passenger train at full throttle & the 18-car freight at 3/4 throttle to keep them at about equal speed.
I had to resort again to wiring 4 cars together, because the McHenry 52 couplers I used to replace horn & hook on my IHC cars don't seem to close as securely as some knuckle couplers.
Reading The Great Northern Railway: a History, I learned that the new Empire Builder of 1947 had 12 passenger cars. I have 8. Twelve 11" long passenger cars, plus the F7A & B, would make a train about 12' long, occupying almost a third of my 39' layout. I'd like to hear from anyone on this forum who runs a passenger train on a home layout. One option would be to use 72' cars, instead of 85' ones. Online sellers often don't state the length of their passenger cars, however.
WGL - just a few suggestions. I'm sure others will chime in later.
Speed - Give the engines some time to break in. Others will give you various times. I usually go between 30-45 minutes in each direction. Then check & oil if necessary with plastic compatible products. LaBelle makes a fine oil & grease.
Also some engines are geared differently. The "real" engines were geared for freight (slower) or passenger (faster) service.
McHenry couplers - Try a Kadee coupler of the same size. They are more durable - especially if you want to run long trains.
Good luck!
Jay
Unless you have a booster, you are exceeding the power capabilities of your E-Z Command System with two sound equipped locomotives - never mind about lights in the passenger cars.
Get a booster. Give the locomotives some break in time, as suggested. Run in both directions at variable speeds. They need a very very tiny amount of lubrication. Make sure you use a proper plastic compatible hobby lubricant.
Jayl1 & Nigel,
Thanks for the advice. I guess 10 minutes wasn't long enough for breaking in a locomotive.
Is LaBelle a thicker lubricant than the Wahl clipper oil many have recommended for retarding oxidation on the rails?
I think the Labelle 108 is a slightly thinner viscosity. (75 SUS @ 100 degrees F.) Labelle also makes #106 grease with teflon.
It would be helpful if manufacturers of locomotives included information about maintenance, including lubrication. Is there a site on the web that shows what parts to lubricate & when to use oil & when grease? Somewhere, I read that manufacturers often lubricate their locomotives too much. I haven't found any oil coming off my models onto my fingers, though.
I'd stay with eight cars on a 39' layout. I assume you mean 39 feet of track. If you have at least one of each type of car on the Empire Builder, you have selectively compressed the train. In addition, I imagine if they hadn't sold enough tickets the train might be reduced in the number of coaches or sleepers.
Gene
Yes, I have a 39' layout for the passenger train. I just got a Sheffield Farms milk tank car, because my grandfather Sheffield had a dairy farm. The information with it says that milk tank cars were coupled to passenger trains, because passenger trains were faster. The milk was chilled before loading into these unrefrigerated cars. However, my Intermountain F7A-B DCC\with sound passenger locomotive is not as fast as my Spectrum EMD SD-45 DCC\without sound freight locomotive.
Factories like to sell lubricants, but their use is over stated. I use a tiny bit of Labelle 106 grease with teflon on the worm gear and anywhere there is metal to metal contact, such as the axles on steamers. For plastic gears I use #108 light oil, applied with a toothpick or 4/0 sable brush.
The factories (and some modelers) tend to over lubricate.
Regarding the locomotives' speeds, as Nigel mentioned you are probably pushing the limit of the EZ Command without a booster. The available current is about 1 amp usable, although the specs rate it at 1.5 amp for an extra margin. The current has to be divided among all the locomotives in the consist or running separately.
The SD-45 pulling 8-10 cars is probably drawing about .3 amp. I have not tested the current draw on a sound loco, but I'm guessing about .6 amp or more in consist.
For locos in consist, the current isn't proportionally additive. That is, if a single loco draws .5 amp with 10 cars, 2 locos in consist may only draw a total of .8 amp since the load is shared.
As a real world example, when the 100 unit coal trains come through our ranch, the 6 to 8 locos are almost idling. All those locos aren't so much for sheer power, but to keep drive motors from overheating, better fuel economy, increased longevity of the engines and of course added traction.
You are probably running all the locos without the controller tripping, but the speeds are greatly reduced. Essentially your current "bank" is empty with no remaing margin. Keep in mind it also depends on the rolling resistance of your cars.
The only way to know for sure what your current requirements are, is to run tests with a meter. A handy instrument is the "RRAmpmeter" sold by Tony's, which measures true RMS values.
Yampa Bob,
Thanks for the advice on lubrication & the estimates. I wondered when Jim Banner said that the EZ Command is 1.5 amps but the manual says 1 amp. You explained the discrepancy. My SD-45 is pulling 18 cars. The EZ Command 5 amp power booster is so expensive that one could buy a Digitrax Zephyr for less, although it is just 2.5 amps. I am wondering which would be the better investment.
Either you're a nightowl like me or an early riser. I started for bed 3 hours ago, but just one more post. :D
The EZC power supply is rated at 1 amp but possibly derated.
You might look into the "Zonemaster" series by CVP Products. I think the dual is around $80, you also need the adjustable power supply. You can download the spec sheet and instruction manual from their site.
http://www.cvpusa.com/
I recently ran current tests on some Bachmann DCC equipped diesel locos, but only on DC power. The distributive and cumulative current results might be of interest to you....or not. :D
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,6229.0.html
I'm outa here, catch you later.
never, never, never use vasoline or 3 in 1 oil. Make sure the oil or grease is plastic compatable.
Yampa Bob,
Yes, I'm a nightowl & suffer from insomnia--except after supper. ;)
I tried my Intermountain F7A & B on DC. They wouldn't even start until I turned the throttle almost to maximum! At max, their horns sounded but they didn't move. After they got going, they would run at max & about 3/4 & 2/3 speed. Running them very slowly seems not possible.
model-city now has EZ Command 5 amp booster for $130--about half the list price, so I took the plunge.
pdlethbridge, right, I don't want to have to clean the gears, as someone was advised to do here after using 3in1 oil!
try your intermountain units one on the track at a time( no other locos or decoders running), see if they run better
Seems I was being too conservative about the current for sound locos. It would be nice if the factories listed the current requirements in the specs.
Glad you found a good price on the booster. Please keep us posted on results.
I just bought a larger power supply instead of a booster. It works fine for me I can run 2 F7A's with DCC and Sound in consist without a problem.
Don
How many amps is your larger power supply?
SD45's came along about the time milk traffic dried up. I don't know if GN had their own fleet of cars, but wood milk cars were gone by the 1950's. FP7's would be more prototypical. Milk cars usually ran in high priority unit trains directly to the dairy plant. In Boston, Hood Milk had a large fleet of their own cars, but B&M also had a good sized fleet(several exist strewn about the system). All in All, the FP7's would be more prototypical.
WGL,
Before you invest in a booster, perhaps some preliminary testing might be in order.
I don't have any sound locos to test. Would it be possible for you to turn off the sound with your EZ Command, then test the current draw of each individual loco, on a DC powered track, with a DC ammeter? Again, refer to my thread for distributive and accumulative current testing. Of course, if you have the RRAmpmeter, you can test on DCC power.
Your comment that the locos wouldn't move at all without a little push confuses me. I would expect them to run, but just at a reduced speed when in consist. Perhaps Intermountain locos are more current demanding, though they probably use similar motors as Bachmann. I'm thinking your locos might have excessive drag or binding. That's why I run any DCC loco on DC first, and monitor the current to be sure it is fully broken in.
I was hoping someone with sound locos had made these tests and would comment here. I researched several sound decoders, but none give any information about estimated current draw in actually running. Modelers are getting more concerned with technical aspects these days, the factories should include this information in their spec sheets.
The technology is here, but the information we need is being withheld. I feel every locomotive should have specs on the box: "This locomotive was tested and found to draw an average of X amperes of current at X voltage, as supplied."
Guilford Guy,
I coupled my milk tank car to my F7B. What does FP7 mean, passenger?
Yampa Bob,
I did read your thread on measurements of power use. I don't have any gauges for measuring power usage. I can turn off the sound with EZ Command but I don't know how I could turn it off on DC. My Bachmann & Intermountain locomotives came with little or no specifications, other than a manual from the maker of the sound system. These items are expensive enough to rate more information to be included with them.
I already ordered the 5 amp booster for EZ Command, because some have said that 2 DCC with sound locos are too much for the 1 amp power supply. I could not avoid getting my F7B unit with sound, if I wanted a DCC match for my Intermountain F7A. Sometime, I'd like to add sound to my Spectrum EMD SD45, which would mean running 3 sound locos simultaneously. I really like hearing the UP's horn when it passes north of town several times day & night.
The Intermountain F7A & B I ran separately on a DC track only 1 on the track at a time, after I'd initially run them on the DCC track. I did not push them; they just would not move until I turned the 7VA DC power pack's throttle to about 2/3 (My cheap F7 DC raced around the track). They run much better on DCC power. The SD45 now pulls 19 cars fast enough for me, about 80+ HO mph. I just wonder why the F7A & B aren't as fast. If their DCC sound drains power from their speed, then I hope the power booster will speed them up. If a passenger train is supposed to be faster than a freight train, I'd like mine to be so.
FP7's had a Steam Generator to provide Steam Heat, towards the rear of the Units. The few railroads who still ran Passenger Trains in the 60's/70's bought EMD's SDP35's and SDP40's, and CNJ used GP40P's on commuter trains. New Haven's FL9's were originally designed to have extra large Steam Generators so they didn't need to stop and top them off at one point during the trip. New Haven didn't need this so they ditched the Gennies and put 3rd Rail Hardware in its place.
Model Railroader Magazine has an occasional feature on "Pike-sized Passenger trains" which has been very helpful to me. There were many shorter yet still exciting passenger trains in The Official Guide. My small layout is based on passenger operations with a run-through passenger station and I've limited my trains to five cars maximum. Some of my trains are mostly head-end with a rider coach trailing the lot. This allows me to have the operation I like without my locomotives chasing their own trains' markers around a loop.
Now, some day, when I have more space....
A typical commuter train on the B&M was a steamer ( a 4-6-2, 2-8-0 ) and 5 coaches. A 2-8-0 was very useful on the lines that had stations very close, they were good at accelerating. Branch lines had the 2-6-0's with a coach or two and combine.
WGL
The power supply I am using is a Digitrax PS515Class 2SELV Supply- 15v 5 amp. It works fine to give me the extra power I need.
Don
Thanks for the information on FP7s, number of cars in passenger trains, & power supply.
I'm finding that, when the locomotive has plenty of power, the weak links are some of the couplers. Last night, I had to move a Bachmann boxcar with truck-mounted couplers from the front of the train to near the back so that it had less weight to pull. It was okay until I tried putting a hill under my track. :(
The Kadee clones are not the same as Kadees as they are plastic, not metal. Talgo (truck mounted) should be converted to body mounted if possible and clones converted to Kadees as they wear out.
Gene
Be careful of metal couplers causing shorts between engines, make sure they are electrically insulated or you'll go nuts trying to find the problem
Steam locomotives solve that problem. ;)
Gene
I think if you turn the sound off with EZCommand, it will still be off if you switch to DC power.
Since no one has tested sound locos and reported their findings here, and until someone says I'm wrong, I'm thinking that with sound turned off, you should be able to run 2 or 3 locos at good speed with EZ Command.
I could be wrong on both counts, let's see if this new "bait" catches any fish.