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Discussion Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: Frisco on September 17, 2008, 08:57:02 PM

Title: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Frisco on September 17, 2008, 08:57:02 PM
According to Trains magazine News Wire Grand Canyon Railway is no longer running steam :'( :'( :'( :'( and the locomotives will be displayed outside. Acording to the company that owns the locomotives it was fro "enviramentile reasons" but many things point to it being over $$$. Subscibers can view more information at www.trainsmag.com . I emailed them about it and will post the reaturn when I get it.
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Yampa Bob on September 17, 2008, 11:22:42 PM
As I mentioned in another thread, Georgetown Loop Railroad near Denver is using a diesel switcher.  I had a chance to interview some of the passengers regarding the change from steam locomotives.

Only one guy, a modeler, said he missed the steamers but it didn't really matter. Another passenger said he liked the change, as the steamer smoke used to fill the cars as they went over the Devil's Gate Viaduct. 

All the cars were filled to capacity as usual.   
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Woody Elmore on September 18, 2008, 09:31:19 AM
Well, duh! The great thing about riding steam trains is the smoke and soot! What kind of diesel do they use - and is it smoke free (if it's an old Alco I doubt it).

Maybe they should go back to horse drawn trains but - oops - horses pollute but their pollution is natural and biodegradable. Just watch wear you walk.
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: epeorus on September 18, 2008, 11:02:26 AM
That conclusion must have been reached since this past May.  When I rode it in mid-May, they were very proudly announcing the acquisition of an SP&S steamer (a Mikado, as I recall) with the idea of adding horsepower to pull the cars without the aid of their FA units!

A pity, if it's true.  The steam was great fun!

Jim
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: pdlethbridge on September 18, 2008, 11:06:47 AM
One railroad that has been running steam since its inception over a hundred years ago just got its first bio diesel running up the hill. The mt Washington cog railway has been using steam exclusively until this year. Their steepest grade is 37%. Another one is Steamtown in Scranton, Pa. If they don't get their act together soon. they will go down too.
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Yampa Bob on September 18, 2008, 01:47:33 PM
I took pictures of the switcher, but haven't identified it yet.  The mechanics at the engine house were off duty.

If I can't find a reference, will post a picture later.
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: epeorus on September 18, 2008, 02:23:27 PM
Quote from: pdlethbridge on September 18, 2008, 11:06:47 AM
One railroad that has been running steam since its inception over a hundred years ago just got its first bio diesel running up the hill. The mt Washington cog railway has been using steam exclusively until this year. Their steepest grade is 37%. Another one is Steamtown in Scranton, Pa. If they don't get their act together soon. they will go down too.

I was in Conway, NH, on other business, but had the pleasure of photographing the cog railway the last day under full-steam (they had six fired up at once and I was at the inauguration of the biodiesel engine as well.  Nice sound but I like the soot!

Will post a picture later today.

Jim
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: nhmanhere59 on September 18, 2008, 07:28:26 PM
I was a New Hampshire resident for over 50 years,and have ridden the Mt.Washington Cog Railway many times. The last time was on a return trip in 2002. I will certainly miss the smoke,soot,and clatter of the steam locos,but can understand the change over for economic and ecological reasons. I rode the Georgetown Loop before the steam loco broke an axle. Hopefully,they will be able to return it to service.
  David
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Yampa Bob on September 19, 2008, 01:33:57 AM
Frisco, Hope I'm not "pirating" your thread, but thought this info fit the topic. Keep us posted on the Grand Canyon report.

I called the GLRR mechanic at the engine house today, he was eager to share information about the switcher.

It's a "Porter", 80 ton, with a "Cooper" 600 hp engine, built in 1945.  It originally was owned by US Gypsum working San Diego, along a line near Tijuana. GLRR bought the loco 4 years ago, had it rebuilt by Sumpter Valley Loco Works in Oregon.  It's a beautiful engine, closely resembles a GE 70 ton, whisper quiet and clean running. Very elegant in black with yellow stripes.

I have a lot of information about their steamers being rebuilt, but will reserve that for a separate thread. One thing is definite, steam will return to the Georgetown Loop.
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: epeorus on September 19, 2008, 09:29:22 AM
Here's a picture in May of this year!  Soon it will be gone?  I'm glad I got ride it before it was lost.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3071/2870368130_efcf6967d5_b.jpg)

Jim
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Terry Toenges on September 19, 2008, 09:58:06 AM
Having been on a number of tourist train rides around the country, I can say that the the diesel rides don't do much for me.
When I ride a tourist railroad, it's for the experience of seeing, hearing, smelling, and "feeling" the steamers.
If I just want to look at scenery, I can do that in a car for a lot less money.
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Yampa Bob on September 19, 2008, 12:18:13 PM
When you cross the Devil's Gate high bridge, you momentarily forget what the loco is, you're thinking, "Gee I hope this thing doesn't collapse."  I think my wife held her breath all the way over. It's the "highlight" of the ride, pardon the pun.

The trip is very short, about 30 minutes for the 6 mile one way. We like to watch the train leave Georgetown, then drive 2 miles up the interstate to Silver Plume and watch it arrive. 

Unlike some excursions which require you to pay for a photo shoot, GL encourages railfans and photographers.
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Frisco on September 19, 2008, 10:09:41 PM
I got a reaply from them today.It re says that is is for the enviroment.When I have some more time I will tipe it out on here.
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: pdlethbridge on September 20, 2008, 01:00:06 AM
You want to read this:
http://www.williamsnews.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=8132
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Paul W. on September 20, 2008, 11:12:19 AM
Thanks for the link!
I personally think this is terrible. There are so few steam RR's left running excursions, to see one that is pulling steam off it's roster, that's very sad. If you want to voice your opinion to this, you can contact their corp office and let your voice be heard.

http://www.thetrain.com/company/


There are alot of other things they could do to help the environment other than cut out steam. They are also going to put quite a few people out of work do to this move, sad, very sad.
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: az2rail on September 20, 2008, 11:48:34 AM
 The park service is going to cut back on the amount of cars and buses allowed into the park at any one time. Many tourists will have to use the train if they want to see the canyon. Have you seen the price to ride the train? Also these people will need a place to stay, and eat. Looks like Williams will get a boost.

Bruce
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Yampa Bob on September 20, 2008, 01:49:44 PM
There's also a push by the "cheese and whiners" to designate our forests as Wilderness areas.  That means no vehicles, no excursion trains, not even snowmobiles in the winter.  Some used to allow horseback riding, but even that is being phased out.

The only way to see these beautiful areas is on foot.  That's fine for the hiker enthusiasts, but what about the people with handicaps.? 
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Frisco on September 20, 2008, 02:31:57 PM
Thanks, for the link to the Williams news. Although it probaly won't go verry far I hope that every-one that wan'ts steam to stay sends them a email. Hope-fully if they get enough emails and their ridership goes down enough they will bring it back.
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: pdlethbridge on September 20, 2008, 03:02:05 PM
Your dealing with a 'green' company. It will never switch back to steam. Unless the railroad is sold and the new owners want steam, you'll never see steam there again.
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: RAM on September 20, 2008, 04:15:09 PM
The only green issue here was the back pocket.  The 20 jobs, s and the 113,000 gal. of diesel fuel.
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Dusten Barefoot on September 20, 2008, 08:30:58 PM
Thats what you get for burrning oil in a steam engine. I am a advid coal person ;D. But the discontinual of steam on the line is very heart breaking. So I have no reason to visit the Grand Canyon now. And green my rear end. Im sick of the green. I want some nice coal smoke to fill my lungs.
Rock On!
Dusten
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Frisco on September 20, 2008, 10:43:15 PM
As promised here is the reaturn letter.                                                             Dear Mr. Marrs Thank you for your message expressing disappointment regarding Xanterra Parks & Resort's recent decision to eliminate the use of steam locomotives on the Grand Canyon Railway between Williams, Arizona and the Grand Canyon Depot.      It is obvios from your e-mail that nothing we say will convince you otherwise, but we want you to know that our decision was prompted byenvironmental considerations. The move was made to save a considerable amount of fuel and water and to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and air pollutants associated with steam engines.          Xanterra Parks & Resorts had been the recipient of over 50 awards for outstounding achievement for our commitment to environmental causes during recent years, including multiple awards from (more places than I have paience to type out). We do not think it is keeping with ou environmental mission to continue to operate steam engines based on the following.                            FUEL SAVINGS our steam locomotive uses appoximately 1,450 gallons of diesel fuel per day.Our diesel locomotive uses approximatly 550 per day.Thus switching from steam to diesel saves approximately 900 gallons per day of diesel fuel. If we run approximately 126 steam trips per year that would total 113,000gallons of diesel fuel saved per year.                                                            POLLUTION PREVENTION ASSOCIATED WITH STEAM LOCOMTOIVES  By removing steam locomotives from our operations we reduce pollution associated with maintenance  and operations of the steam train. This includes eliminating the use of : journal oil, steam oil, bearing oil,and more than 25 different kinds of boiler chemicals. Yhese petroleum products tend to leak onto the train tracks during operation and also become a waste product during routine maintenance of the trains. By contrast , our diesel locomotives capture any oily lubricants used during operation in designated tanks. That waste oil is burned for heat back at the maintenance shop.                   WATER SAVINGS   Eliminating steam locomtives  willsave approximately 1,200gallons of water per day .Using diesel instead of steam for the estimated 126 train trips per year will save 151,200 gallons of water.                      GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS AND CRITERIA AIR POLLUNTANT REDUCTIONS  Using diesel instead of steam will save 1,264 tons of CO2 emissions 1.1 tons of nitrogen oxides and 8.5 tons tons of sulfur oxides per year. Xanterra already uses ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel in its trains.This relatively new fuel contains 97% less sulfer than conventional diesel, reducing sulfer content from 500 parts per million to 15 parts per million.                                                                                                                 So while we certainly understand and appreciate your fellings regarding our decision to suspend operations of the steam engines, we hope the obve points will help you understand our decision. Finally, it is our intention to display the steam engines as living exhibits at the depot in Williams so that this and future  generations will be able to see and enjoy the story of steam locomotive, Fred Harvey, and the Santa Fe Railway's history of train travel into the Grand canyon. However this is one of several thoughts under consideration and no final decision regarding the two steam locomotives has been determined.       Thanks for writing Judi Lages
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: PRRThomas11 on September 20, 2008, 11:51:58 PM
This is very sad. I was fortunate enough to visit the GCRR this summer. When I looked inside the cab of the recently overhauled steam engine i saw that all of the gauges were red digital readouts rather then the way more common dial. The diesel put put way more emissions that the steam engine. When I saw the Alco leave it spewed out so much thick black exhaust it could be mistaken for a steam engine. They have four operational steam engines I believe, and that's four steam engine that will never run again. They could at least give them to another railroad that could really use them. Too bad.
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: pdlethbridge on September 20, 2008, 11:55:31 PM
They will save a bunch of money, thats why they call it a green company.
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: kevin2083 on September 21, 2008, 01:07:59 AM
The thing I don't get is how they say they're saving water, like it's something that will put out pollution. I'm pretty sure that steam locomotives aren't the sole cause of so-called "global warming."  I, too,  am sick of all this 'green' and how EVERYTHING has to be 'green' or it's not accaptable in society. Even the laptop I'm typing on has something saying it's 'green'. But, right now I'm smelling the wonderful aroma of the neighbors who think it's a good idea to burn their horse manure, after it's been soaked in diesel, of course (it's their summertime tradition).
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Guilford Guy on September 21, 2008, 01:29:25 AM
I'm all for the environment... So maybe car usage should be regulated... Maybe trucking rates should be increased... If I stated what I really think is going on this would get severely political so I won't... Its a real shame, since Steamtown is barely scraping by on its income, and their steamers are due in for 5 year rebuilds soon... If 3713 and 26 aren't finished by then, Steamtown will be in the words of a good friend- "Dieseltown."
Anyways, once this country gets that Middle East Oil Deal, there will plenty for everyone... and lots of Green for those with stocks in Oil... Atleast until we run out of that and have to go and kill all the Alaskan Plants and Animals to quench our addiction...  ::)

Steam locomotives are the history. Steam Excursions shouldn't become History...

Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: glennk28 on September 21, 2008, 01:41:10 AM
Our loco,  YW 19, burns reclaimed motor oil --has to be treated to remove heavy metals, but then we can burn it.  Runs a nice clean stack--sometimes too clean.   gj
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Yampa Bob on September 21, 2008, 03:53:32 AM
We have thousands of gas wells here, with one of the largest pipelines in the country.  The vegetation and animal population is better than ever before, due to required reclamation.  No animals were killed in the process.  In fact, many species of ground nesting birds, once almost gone, have returned in huge numbers due to the improvement in habitat.

Just setting the facts straight.

Back to steamers, I will miss them too, but we have to face facts. Grand Canyon RR has already made the decision, a million emails won't change that. Apart from the environment issue, they are in business to make a profit, and employees need their jobs.

Georgetown has been using a diesel and their business is thriving. However, as I mentioned, they plan to get 2 steamers back on line, having to renovate in house is a slow process.  Now that I'm retired I plan to visit the railroad often. (of course with side trips to Caboose Hobbies)  :D
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: pdlethbridge on September 21, 2008, 04:04:04 AM
There's a man who knows his priorities  8)
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Yampa Bob on September 21, 2008, 04:42:09 AM
Yup, I can't wait to get my hands on those AC4400, and Caboose Hobbies is awesome.

I may volunteer some time on the restoration. I've always wanted to kitbash a real Prairie.  Just kidding, but you should see the parts everywhere, looks like a huge kit. The one I really want to see progress on is their 1884 Porter 2-6-0. Heck, I would even pay them to let me work on it.  :D
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Dusten Barefoot on September 21, 2008, 11:43:21 AM
Send'em to Strasberg, and let them run there. Why in the world would anyone let a beatiful item of history sit and rust in the weather. It is very dissopointing.
Dusten
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Paul W. on September 21, 2008, 12:39:21 PM
My wife and I just watched on the travel channel "America by rail", and wouldn't you know there was the Grand Canyon RR, talking about how the "current owners" saved the RR, and put steam back in service for all to see and enjoy.

There are many more options they could have taken to "go green" other than eliminate steam from their roster.

The two can co-exist!
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: az2rail on September 21, 2008, 01:49:35 PM
I am sure there is more too it. I don't know where Williams gets their water from for the engines, but I do know that water is in very short suppy in that area.
If you want a glass of water in a reataurant up there, you have to ask for it. Flagstaff is in a battle for more water. Washing your car is frowned upon, and you can get a fine if you water your lawn at the wrong time of day, and for to long. I would not be suprised if Williams does not not have to truck in their water.

Bruce
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Dash-9 on September 21, 2008, 03:09:03 PM
i think this is very sad and i do not agree with the ides that the grand canyon rail road has made.  >:( and what I've been told the alco diesel gives more pollution than the 4 steam engine. so as i said before i think this is very sad  :( :( :( :( :(
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Guilford Guy on September 21, 2008, 03:15:29 PM
If you think of all the things that Pollute, Steam Locomotives would be low in the List... Its not really how much per unit it pollutes. 1 Car pollutes less than 1 Steam Locomotive... But when you look at the Ratio of Cars compared to Steam Locomotives...
Look at it this way- If you completely restrict Automobiles, and only let the train run in there, the steamers WOULD be more eco friendly, but in today's world, no one wants to get out of their automobile, and the safety of the air conditioning and fast food in cup holders...
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Yampa Bob on September 21, 2008, 04:12:57 PM
While we're at it, why not just eliminate all cars, trucks, buses, airplanes, motorcycles, factories, power plants, hair spray....then we could bring back the steamers in all their glory, along with stage coaches and penny candy bars.

Oh, let's also forget the handicapped or health impaired who need the convenience and security of their car, and wouldn't be comfortable or safe on a train.

Change is inevitable.  We can either live in the past, or look to the future.  I like steam locomotives as much as anyone but their time has passed.

This is interesting conversation, but aren't we just beating our heads against a stone wall?  Steam fans represent what percentage of the nation's population?

Someone might say "Well, I wouldn't walk across the street to ride a diesel train". So who are they hurting?  Not me, not the train lines, not the billions who couldn't care less about trains.  It's called  "cutting our nose off to spite our face."

I will ride any excursion train regardless of the loco used and thoroughly enjoy the experience.  The retired steamers will be preserved for future generations to see.
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: SteamGene on September 21, 2008, 05:50:32 PM

The solution would be to switch to coal - but that might be difficult to deliver in the quantity needed.  Another possibility is to use Bunker C, which is what oil fired locos used in the beginning. 
Gene
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: RAM on September 21, 2008, 09:49:25 PM
The sad thing is they are going to set these out on display to rot.  All of the tools and skill to restore locomotives are being lost. 
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Yampa Bob on September 21, 2008, 10:23:40 PM
Some are simply too costly to restore to operating condition, the best to be done is keep them painted and clean.  Rio Grande #268 is now undercover, and other Historical Societies are putting locos inside or in shelters.

Of course, all this takes money.  If we truly care about preserving these locos, we need to dig into our own pockets, and make sizable donations to the effort. Otherwise we are just "blowing smoke".

I believe in "action", not "reaction".  If every steam fan donated $100 to $500 to their relevant society, we can make a difference. I did, how about the rest of you?

I agree they shouldn't be left at the mercy of the elements.
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: PRRThomas11 on September 22, 2008, 04:10:23 PM
If they're not running them, one of those would look really nice in my back yard ;)
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: kevin2083 on September 23, 2008, 12:17:08 PM
this may seem a little random, but I figured out that I could have a scaled up HO 15" radius oval with two 9" straights (220 ft x 350 ft) in my backyard. I wish.

kevin
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: ebtnut on September 24, 2008, 02:30:03 PM
I suspect the underlying reasons for quitting steam have to do with the bottom line.  Steam is expensive to operate and especially to maintain.  Diesels are much like cars--something fails, you go get a replacment part.  With steam, you may very well have to MAKE the part.  The "green" thing makes for good PR, and there is some truth in it.  Water in the southwest is a precious commodity.  Steam engines use thousands of gallons of water a day in full operation.  Diesels have closed cooling systems like cars and trucks.  And steam engines are only about half as efficient as diesels in operation.  And whether its Bunker C or diesel, its still oil, and at $110/bbl, it's expensive too.  Converting back to coal isn't that simple.  You would likely need to cast new grates, insert the grate hanger equipment, install shaker bars, etc.  And the sparks from cinders are much more likely to set fires along the desert-dry right-of-way. 

Don't get me wrong on this--I'll go ride/fix/run a steam loco any chance I get.  One just has to recognize today's realities.
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Yampa Bob on September 26, 2008, 03:03:05 PM
Future generations won't appreciate our railroad heritage, nor will they care what happens to surviving steamers on display.

I foresee custom built 300 hp "green goats" in the 44 ton style for better visibility, with bright excursion colors to attract tourists.  GLRR has a rebuilt 20 ton that's very attractive, and a couple of small "critters".  By putting a critter on each end, they wouldn't have to run around for the return trip.

By replacing the generator with lots of batteries, the engine could be a small propane or gas powered battery charger, similar to hybrid autos.  Whisper quiet and no pollution.

Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: rogertra on September 26, 2008, 05:39:34 PM
What surprises me is that the U.S.A., with it's much bigger railfan base has so few "heritage" railways run mainly by volunteers with a core staff, management, a couple of engine crews, maintentance people, both plant and rolling stock, on hand to support the volunteers who do most of the operation.

Look what happened to that GTW 4-6-2 back in the 1970s,(?) cut up for scrap for unpaid bills.  That would never have happened in the UK, for example.  Why railfans in the so called "richest country in the World" let that happen still baffles me.

In the UK, there are dozens upon dozens of steam hauled, volunteer run, "heritage" railways.  The volunteers restore steam from scrap yard condition, overhaul their working steam locos every ten years (UK law.  A steam locos boiler must be removed and overhauled every ten years max), lay track, clear rights of way, rebuild bridges and culverts, lay new track, build buildings, operate steam locos, act as "guards" (Conductors) signalmen (Towerr operators), signal maintainers, station staff etc., etc.. In fact, practically every job required to run a steam railway.

Why not in North America?
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Dusten Barefoot on September 26, 2008, 08:07:32 PM
Greeddy greedy people. Oh and let us not forget the average freakin' green man or portester. Our country has alot of greedy people looking to make a dime, not a great tour. >:(
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Yampa Bob on September 26, 2008, 09:24:44 PM
I am curious as to why any individual, company or corporation, wanting to earn a living, improve their status, provide jobs for others, would be called "greedy".

I worked hard all my life to achieve success, and now I'm comfortably retired.  Was I being greedy?  I provided for myself, so that others wouldn't have to provide for me.

The problem is there are too many people not willing to work to earn their keep.  For 20 years I tried to hire ranch hands.  Their first question: "How much does it pay".  My response was: "How hard are you willing to work?"

In life you don't get paid to work, you work to get paid.
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Santa Fe buff on September 27, 2008, 01:09:03 AM
Ah Bob,
   I've tried to stay out, but when you posted that... :-\

My mother knows this man, who is currently retrofitting an old house for the city of Kankakee, IL.So he's hiring people who are welcome, he pays them flat out $50.00 each, and puts them to work. He said, "After about 3 or so hours, they wanted to give out after I told them they had to do 5 hours." All my money is earned by chores, birthdays, and helping on jobs. I do use if for a cause, because I've always dreamed of a good college, I've been saving up with a savings acount with First American Bank. So far: $655.55, after only about 5 years. I'm going to need to improve the rate FAST, so I donate all my money to half at times. :)

Money well earned, is well spent, and it feels so good and right. ;)
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: SteamGene on September 30, 2008, 04:39:07 PM
Roger raises a good point and I'm not sure the answers so far are as good as the question.  A couple of possibilities:
Sheer size.  British locomotives are much smaller than American.  In addition, England is much smaller than the US.
When steam departed.  In the US steam was gone long before in the UK.  The men working on them today actually saw a lot running when they were kids. 
Attitude of railroads concerning retired steam.  Did they make it easy to restore them?  Do they want them running on their rails? 
Quite frankly, I'd rather see one running than four rusting.
Gene
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Yampa Bob on September 30, 2008, 07:53:07 PM
I can't speak for the rest of the country, but in Colorado there are thousands of volunteers working hard to keep the excursions rolling. There are also a lot of sponsors who help financially. I am proud to be one of those sponsors.

Being more outspoken than most people, when I hear complaints about the current status of excursions, I have to bluntly say "Put your money (or your back) where your mouth is". Most excursions are owned by various Historical or Preservation Societies, and expenses are at all time high.

Forget operating, repair and maintenance costs, and forget the pressures imposed by the EPA.  A major expense for companies operating the excursions is Liability Insurance.  People are "sue crazy" today.

The "Georgetown Loop Railroad" for instance involves 2 separate entities.  The Colorado Historical Society (CHS) owns the tracks and land, but THE Georgetown Loop Railroad, Inc. (GLRR) provided the engines and operated the line until 2004.

GLRR lost the contract in 2004 because they wouldn't agree to the liability requirements imposed by CHS. The loop has been operated by "Railstar,Inc.", for the seasons 2005-2008.  Steamers owned by GLRR are currently displayed at the museum in Golden.

http://www.savethetrain.org/id3.htm

There are also business "politics" involved.  Area businesses rely heavily on the tourist trade, and bitterly opposed C&S's petition in 1939 to discontinue  operation.  But now that the line is back, (at the expense of CHS) these same businesses do not provide adequate support for the line.  There are only two small exit signs on the interstate, and very little publicity by business groups or news networks.

Having served as President of several Chambers of Commerce over the years, I have a grasp of the intense competition for local and tourist dollars. It's not greed, merely survival.

Baldwin #12 ("Pineapple Princess") was acquired by CHS, but it needed assistance of a diesel to negotiate the steep grades.  (see story and pictures at above link) The "Princess" and other steamers are currently being rebuilt.

CHS is making a sincere effort to restore steam to the Georgetown Loop, but it will take more than volunteers.  Refer to the "Sponsor" page at the above link and write out a check.  If you aren't willing to chip in, with either your time or money, then don't complain.  Remember the old saying: "Talk is cheap".
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: pdlethbridge on September 30, 2008, 09:11:41 PM
Yes, talk is cheap, but fixing a steamer for todays standards is extremely expensive. 20 + years ago we were scheduled to take a fan trip behind Nickel Plate 2-8-4 #765. The run would have started in Buffalo, gone east through Rochester to Lyons, then swing south through Geneva to Corning. After a 2+Hour layover in Corning, it would head back to Buffalo going a different route over the high bridge at Letchworth State Park. 3 days before the excursion, it was canceled due to liability rates. No trains have run any part of that route since. There were well over a 1000 heart broken and angry at Conrail fans.
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Yampa Bob on September 30, 2008, 09:31:15 PM
Back in the horse and buggy days, around 1900, people also said:  "I wouldn't have one of those new fangled contraptions".

Well, the horse and buggy are history, and let's face it, so is the "Iron Horse".

If they could build a diesel disguised as a steamer, with sound effects and non-polluting steam from the stack, would that make everyone happy? :D
Title: Re: Grand Canyon Railway quiting steam
Post by: Paul W. on September 30, 2008, 10:12:36 PM
I do agree that things change, and we move forward. However, take the Amish, they still to this day travel with horse and buggy, and live the same lifestyle as their parents and grandparents.
However, restoring and keeping history alive is important. That's why folks restore clasic cars. It's a part of history that can be driven, heard, and rode in. I've restored several antique tractors, and although I do it because I enjoy the process, to see peoples face when they see it running in a parade, or even plowing a garden is very satisfying.
I also donate money to support several local RR's, and belong to the RR museum of PA.
If this whole issue was indeed about money, I'm sure folks would have stepped up and made donations to keep the steam alive.
The Grand Canyon RR is a scenic excursion, and one of just a handful of places to ride behind a working steam engine. It is a true loss to deny folks the chance to experience a ride in a beautiful area behind a living piece of history. I'm very thankful that I live within driving distance of several steam RR's. I visit them often, and enjoy it each and every time!