I don't have any steam locos. What's the sharpest curve the 2-10-2 will run?
Probably 22" radius. It wouldn't look good on anything less.
Good Morning All,
It is my experience that whatever the stated minimum radius is, figure on 2 inches more, therefor, 22in is really 24 inch.
A 2-10-2 will operate better on 24 or greater radii if it is an engine such as those offered by Bachmann, BLI, and Walthers. If you have a brass engine, the my guess is a 28-30 inch radius will be needed.
I'll see your 30" and raise you 32" ;D ;D
I agree 22" is minimum, 24" even better.
One overlooked aspect of a trailing truck loco is the distance from the rear driver to the drawbar pivot/end of cab. I tried a Mikado on my 18" track, rounding a curve it literally yanked the tender sideways off the rails as the cab swung outward. It looked bad, not to mention the engineer getting whiplash.
It had some other problems, so I returned the thing for refund.
The 2-10-2 is a great looking loco, but for a first steamer, I recommend the 2-8-0 Connie. The UP version #83607 has Stephenson valve gear, much easier to work on. Sometimes smaller is better.
You could also get the 4-4-0. I just got my spectrum and it runs great. It would look okay on 18" radius curves but larger are always better. Hidden tracks could be smaller radii, no less than the curve your biggest engine can handle, but visible curves should always be broader for a good appearance.
Quote from: WGL on October 02, 2008, 02:23:50 AM
I don't have any steam locos. What's the sharpest curve the 2-10-2 will run?
From the Model Railroader review August 2006 issue.
Bachmann's HO USRA light 2-10-2
This powerful HO 2-10-2 may be called a "light" 2-10-2, but it's still a big steam locomotive by most model railroad standards. For its size, this new Bachmann locomotive is surprisingly flexible and capable of negotiating 18"-radius curves. A factory installed automatic dual-mode decoder allows it to operate on either DC or DCC (Digital Command Control).I forgot to include the portion dealing with the DCC slow speed , this engine was rated at a .3 mph
I agree that the 18" radius just does not look right - looks awful, but if you want the engine you can run it on 18" if you have too. My layout has two 18" curves that I have more or less hidded but they are there and the 2-10-2's handle the trackwork without problems.
Also with 18" you do need to worry about clearances as well.........
Thanks everyone, for your advice & expertise. Thanks for the review, Pacific Northern. I was wondering whether or not to bid on a Spectrum 2-10-2 DCC DM&IR on eBay. I have 2 ovals, the inner with 18"r & the outer with 22"r.
I'm interested in the era of the 1930s & '40s. Since steam locos with DCC cost more than diesels, I am looking carefully at prices. I'd prefer a Great Northern, something that would have hauled freight or 100-200 iron ore cars, but models of certain railways seem to be more available & cheaper at the moment.
You might care to look at the new Blueline USRA heavy Mikado by Broadway Limited Imports it comes in the GN.Glacer green scheme numbered for class O-3 2-8-2 no.3202.
Its sound equipped and DCC ready meaning it runs on DC right out of the box AND' its on sale on their website and at Factory Direct Trains.
BLIs blueline sound is outstand by the way.
So if your really interested in GN.steam its a bargain.
I have a 2-10-2 and all my curves are 18" . It is a great engine and unless you are a rivet counter looks good on the curves. The 2-10-0 will go around the 18"curves but has to fight its way around .
Don
Thanks, GN2-6-8-0! I'll check that loco out! I might prefer DC with sound to DCC without, as long as I have one DC address on my E-Z Command.
Thanks, Grumpy. I wouldn't be as fussy as purists about how it looked, if it managed the curves.
Quote from: WGL on October 02, 2008, 07:58:37 PM
Thanks everyone, for your advice & expertise. Thanks for the review, Pacific Northern. I was wondering whether or not to bid on a Spectrum 2-10-2 DCC DM&IR on eBay. I have 2 ovals, the inner with 18"r & the outer with 22"r.
I'm interested in the era of the 1930s & '40s. Since steam locos with DCC cost more than diesels, I am looking carefully at prices. I'd prefer a Great Northern, something that would have hauled freight or 100-200 iron ore cars, but models of certain railways seem to be more available & cheaper at the moment.
Since you mentioned GN I should adivse you that the IHC 2-10-2 steam engine is availble with the Vandy tender.
There have been good reviews of this engine, and unlike most IHC engines does come with a fair amount of detail. In fact I just bought one as it was just too good a deal to pass up.
The IHC outpulls the Spectrum.
Gene
Have you made comparison pulling tests? I would be interested in the results. I bought an IHC Mikado, the performance was terrible, and the detailing was non existent. I might just have received a dud, but I sent it back. Not a very good first impression.
Quote from: Yampa Bob on October 03, 2008, 04:54:33 PM
Have you made comparison pulling tests? I would be interested in the results. I bought an IHC Mikado, the performance was terrible, and the detailing was non existent. I might just have received a dud, but I sent it back. Not a very good first impression.
The older locomotives have no detail(even the new ones have only about as much as standard Bachmann) but from all my lcomotives I have from them they run great. I have a 2-10-2 in Frisco a 4-6-2 in Chessie( I didn't know that the Chessie Steam Special was pulled by a T-1 when I bought it) a 2-8-0 in Santa Fe and a 2-6-0 in Central Vermont. I have gotten the 2-10-2 to pull 45 cars on 22" curves up a .5% grade before it started to slip. Now it just needs a sound decoder. All of them run well although the 2-10-2 runs the best. The new 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 have better details(about as good as the 2-10-2), have RP-25 wheel flanges and are DCC ready. You can see a review of the new 2-8-2 in the latest issue (November 2008) of Model Railroader.
Quote from: SteamGene on October 03, 2008, 04:38:14 PM
The IHC outpulls the Spectrum.
Gene
Not so, according to Model Railroader review see excerpts of reviews
2-10-2 Spectrum - Reviewed by Model Railroader August 2006Drawbar pull: 3.7 ounces, 52 free-rolling freight cars on straight, level track
Engine and tender weight: 20 ounces (engine alone is 15 ounces)
Minimum radius: 18"
There are no traction tires, but the 2-10-2 produced sufficient tractive effort to pull 52 free-rolling cars on straight and level track.
Bachmann's new USRA light 2-10-2 offers good looks and excellent performance.
IHC - Reviewed March 2007 Model Railroader excerptSample produced a drawbar pull of 3.2 ounces. That's equivalent to 45 free-rolling freight cars on straight and level track.
Then according to MR standards, "free rolling cars" must be defined as requiring only .0711 ounce of pull per car. That seems very low.
I'm curious about their test procedure / instruments.
Its really not important. Its still a lot of cars and more than all but a few would ever even try it. Most of our layouts are small, 4x8 to 6x10, where you would have, at most, a dozen cars and a crummie.
I realize there is fierce competition among locomotive manufacturers, but I can't see defining a standard down to a precise .0711 ounce.
I think that equates to "a pinch of salt" if you get my drift.
Did the tests consider motor efficiency, torque, gear ratios, friction in motor bearings, gears, axles, castings, current draw, lubrication, weight distribution, etc?
I would call it a draw. :D
Maybe you should just round off the number to .08 or, better yet, .1
Quote from: Pacific Northern on October 02, 2008, 02:13:27 PM
Quote from: WGL on October 02, 2008, 02:23:50 AM
I don't have any steam locos. What's the sharpest curve the 2-10-2 will run?
From the Model Railroader review August 2006 issue.
Bachmann's HO USRA light 2-10-2
This powerful HO 2-10-2 may be called a "light" 2-10-2, but it's still a big steam locomotive by most model railroad standards. For its size, this new Bachmann locomotive is surprisingly flexible and capable of negotiating 18"-radius curves. A factory installed automatic dual-mode decoder allows it to operate on either DC or DCC (Digital Command Control).
I forgot to include the portion dealing with the DCC slow speed , this engine was rated at a .3 mph
I agree that the 18" radius just does not look right - looks awful, but if you want the engine you can run it on 18" if you have too. My layout has two 18" curves that I have more or less hidded but they are there and the 2-10-2's handle the trackwork without problems.
Also with 18" you do need to worry about clearances as well.........
May as well add in the rest of the competition
Proto Heritage Reviewed June 2007
Drawbar pull: without traction tires, 3.7 ounces (52 cars on straight and level track); with traction tires, 200 cars
BLI Reviewed Jan 2007
With its traction tires in place, this 2-10-2's drawbar pull is equivalent to 80 free-rolling freight cars on straight level track. Even without the traction tires, using the optional driver set included, the engine handles about 40 cars.
Drawbar pull: 2.88 ounces,
5.44 ounces with traction tire
Engine and tender weight: 27.5
ounces (engine alone weighs
21.5 ounces)
Bob,
I don't have the data, but trust me, the IHC outpulls the Spectrum in the 2-10-2 format. It's not going to be soon, but perhaps I'll do a test.
Gene
Thanks Gene
I guess I have more confidence in actual modeler's experiences than I do in the magazines. That's why I ran my own current tests recently.
I noticed all the MR reviews were around 40-50 cars, with an average of 47. I suppose this is significant to someone who runs lots of cars, but since I usually pull only 10-15 cars, it's not an important issue to me.
Has anyone ever seen a bad review in MR? I wouldn't know as I don't buy magazines.
GN.2-6-8-0.
That Blueline 2-8-2 Mikado Great Northern is a handsome locomotive! With DC sound & DCC ready, it compares in price with IHC's 2-10-2 DCC-ready Great Northern. Counting wheels, I'm guessing that it is more suited to sharper curves than the 2-10-2. I couldn't find a Bachmann 2-10-2 Great Northern.
The wheel base is shorter and the loco will go through sharper curves, but 18" should be the absolute minimum with larger radii used where ever possible. Not only will it run better but it will look better
Quote from: WGL on October 04, 2008, 02:43:30 AM
GN.2-6-8-0.
That Blueline 2-8-2 Mikado Great Northern is a handsome locomotive! With DC sound & DCC ready, it compares in price with IHC's 2-10-2 DCC-ready Great Northern. Counting wheels, I'm guessing that it is more suited to sharper curves than the 2-10-2. I couldn't find a Bachmann 2-10-2 Great Northern.
There is no GN Spectrum USRA 2-10-2 unfortunately.
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/misc/usra.shtml
I agree the BLI 2-8-2 in the GN livery is a great engine but be aware the street price is more than the ICH if you check around. But if you did pay more you would as indicated be getting a steamer with sound. I would opt for the BLI on your layout.
Quote from: SteamGene on October 03, 2008, 10:19:52 PM
Bob,
I don't have the data, but trust me, the IHC outpulls the Spectrum in the 2-10-2 format. It's not going to be soon, but perhaps I'll do a test.
Gene
I would be interested in your findings.
A few weeks ago I purchased a IHC 2-10-2 and did a test with my Spectrum 2-10-2.
I can not remember which rolling stock exactly I used so the exact weight of the cars is unknown. Note that I have not set my car weights to conform to any standard. However, the Spectrum pulled two more cars in the consist I set up using freight cars and one extra car on a consist of Heavyweight passenger cars.
This was not on a level track and my layout has a 2% and a 3% grade on it.
I made no adjustments for any variables, simply pulled the same consist with each engine until it started to slip. The starting positions for each engine were set to the same point.
The grades certainly reduced the number of cars that each engine could pull without slipping from the number indicated by Model Railroader. In both cases it was less that 1/3 of what had been reported for level pulling.
Factory Direct Trains has the GN. Mike listed at $174.99 Bit more than the IHC unit but you get sound +outstanding service... BLI wins hands down. ;D
Quote from: GN.2-6-8-0 on October 04, 2008, 07:38:43 PM
Factory Direct Trains has the GN. Mike listed at $174.99 Bit more than the IHC unit but you get sound +outstanding service... BLI wins hands down. ;D
Klien has them cheaper, note that there is a QC problem as reported from
Tony's Trains.
http://www.tonystrains.com/tonystips/2008/091908.htm
http://www.tonystrains.com/technews/bline_prog_reports.htm
Thanks for the advice on wheelbase & quality of engine. I looked up the Mikado on Wikipedia & learned that it was very popular & used up to the end of steam.
I muffed a chance to buy the Blueline GN Heavy Mikado from an eBay store last night for $150 with free shipping. Pacific Northern, thanks for the tip: I just bought one from MBKlein for $150 + $10 shipping. I have gotten good buys from them several times in the past. Once, they sent the wrong locomotive (DC, instead of DCC), signed off by 2 inspectors, so I hope they get this one correct (after the boss chewed their butts). I'll probably just test it & then have to put it away for Christmas.
I did read the report on DCC decoder problems, but I think I'll just run it as the one DC loco from my E-Z Command.
Too bad about the one that got away on e-bay.
I was lucky enough to find one of the first release GN Mikes in the Green livery, paid a bit more,but it come with DCC installed and Quantum sound.
I never buy anything without first checking with MB Klien, have never had a problem with them. That sure must have been a disappointment to have received a DC engine instead of the DCC which you ordered. Oh welll, we are only human.
Quote from: WGL on October 05, 2008, 02:33:38 AM
Thanks for the advice on wheelbase & quality of engine. I looked up the Mikado on Wikipedia & learned that it was very popular & used up to the end of steam.
I muffed a chance to buy the Blueline GN Heavy Mikado from an eBay store last night for $150 with free shipping. Pacific Northern, thanks for the tip: I just bought one from MBKlein for $150 + $10 shipping. I have gotten good buys from them several times in the past. Once, they sent the wrong locomotive (DC, instead of DCC), signed off by 2 inspectors, so I hope they get this one correct (after the boss chewed their butts). I'll probably just test it & then have to put it away for Christmas.
I did read the report on DCC decoder problems, but I think I'll just run it as the one DC loco from my E-Z Command.
Just so you know the EZ Command can JUST BARLEY handle the electrical load required for sound.
The reason why Spectrum doesn't have a Great Northern 2-10-2 is simply that Great Northern didn't have any USRA light 2-10-2s. I don't even know if Great Northern had ANY 2-10-2s. IHC still puts road names of railroads who never ran tht particular locomotive. For instance, it has C&O on both its light Mike and light Pacific. But C&O never had any USRA Pacifics of any sort and the only USRA light Mikes it had came from the PM and didn't last long at all.
Gene
GN did.
CLASS Q * SANTA FE * 2-10-2
Designed for heavy freight service, the 2-10-2 Santa Fe was known as a class Q engine on the Great Northern. No. 2100, a Q-1, was the first of 30 built for GN by Baldwin in 1923. Not shown in the builder's photo is the Franklin booster engine which was later applied by the railway. The conical boiler with Belpaire firebox and the Vanderbilt tender carrying 15,000 gallons of water and 25 tons of coal were intriguing features. Overall design was simple and clean, and is an excellent representation of heavy freight power of the period.
Not a USRA design.
Gene
Quote from: WGL on October 05, 2008, 02:33:38 AM
Thanks for the advice on wheelbase & quality of engine. I looked up the Mikado on Wikipedia & learned that it was very popular & used up to the end of steam.
I muffed a chance to buy the Blueline GN Heavy Mikado from an eBay store last night for $150 with free shipping. Pacific Northern, thanks for the tip: I just bought one from MBKlein for $150 + $10 shipping. I have gotten good buys from them several times in the past. Once, they sent the wrong locomotive (DC, instead of DCC), signed off by 2 inspectors, so I hope they get this one correct (after the boss chewed their butts). I'll probably just test it & then have to put it away for Christmas.
I did read the report on DCC decoder problems, but I think I'll just run it as the one DC loco from my E-Z Command.
Check it out the engine is indeed prototype, USRA 2-8-2, O3 series
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/mikado/gn3200.jpg
For the Great Northern, 2-8-2s were Class O while 2-10-2s were Class Q. The GN had several sub classes in O - up through O-8, I believe while only one Class Q, 30 non-USRA 2-10-2s.
Gene
Here is a link to some Great Norther 2-8-2 info. I have found out that Google books has an extensive collection of books. Some you can download or subscribe to Google and store the books in a online Google library.
I happen to have a Google web based email service.
I search out and find a lot of info concerning the 1900 railroad era, air pumps, arc lamps, car heating, etc.
http://books.google.com/books?q=great+northern+2-8-2&btnG=Search+Books
Rich
Quote from: SteamGene on October 05, 2008, 05:49:21 PM
GN did.
CLASS Q * SANTA FE * 2-10-2
Designed for heavy freight service, the 2-10-2 Santa Fe was known as a class Q engine on the Great Northern. No. 2100, a Q-1, was the first of 30 built for GN by Baldwin in 1923. Not shown in the builder's photo is the Franklin booster engine which was later applied by the railway. The conical boiler with Belpaire firebox and the Vanderbilt tender carrying 15,000 gallons of water and 25 tons of coal were intriguing features. Overall design was simple and clean, and is an excellent representation of heavy freight power of the period.
Not a USRA design.
Gene
There also was the class Q2 2-10-2 which were rebuilds of the early P1 class 4-8-2 mountains...
I would have to class the BLI GN. USRA as built ,note the lack of westinghouse dual compound air pumps of the smokebox,no GN.headlight and the turbo generator before the stack I found a picture of 3202 taken in 1946 in my Railroad History 143 the GN. motive power bible showing those appliances with the exception of the TG. It should be back in front of the cab. oh'and the straight non sport cab is correct
Gene
Remember, the whole idea of model railroading is to have fun. If someone wants a particular loco on his railroad, Whats to stop him from having it. Rivet counting is fun, for some people, I have no problem with that, It's not for everybody. If I want a big boy on my 4 x 8 layout, its there because I, the owner of the railroad, desire it. You guys, and gals, have a vast knowledge of the hobby and are great at sharing that knowledge, and we thank you for it.
Thanks for the info & link, Pacific Northern. I began to think I'd wasted my money on the E-Z Command 5 amp booster, because it seems to add nothing to the performance of my F7A-B DCC with sound units & my Spectrum SD45 with DCC running simultaneously. Maybe the Mikado DC with sound will make use of the booster.
I need to look up what Jim Banner wrote about the various ways how DC sound is run.
Thanks for the link, RichG.
pdlethbridge,
I agree: each of us is the boss of his railroad, deciding what proportions of realism & imagination we want. Presently, I'm using a lot of imagination for my scenery.
So do I. I imagine I have lots of money to spend ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I got my Spectrum 2-10-2 DM&IR today. Since I was mistaken about the 4-8-4 being a Spectrum, I'd forgotten that the 2-10-2 is, especially since it is priced lower. I was surprised that the driving wheels of the 2-10-2 are much smaller than on the 4-8-4, giving the 2-10-2 a shorter distance across the drivers: 3.5" compared to 4". Another difference is that the 4-8-4 has no engineer or fireman, but the Spectrums have. Maybe, the 2-10-2 will steer better. :D
Does anyone know why a tiny bag with about a teaspoon of fine sand is included? Is it to throw on the rails, or might it be an authentic sample of Mesabi Iron Range iron ore? ;)
I had to go back to the October post to see what the heck we're talking about.
If the stuff in the little bag is black, it's simulated coal dust. Pour it over the coal load or whatever.
I'm still waiting for drawbar force test results on the IHC. All these locos have pretty much the same puny motors and drive systems for similar models.
By the way, if you want any Spectrum 2-8-0 DCC non-sound, better get them while you can. Bachmann dropped the entire line of Connies except for four with sound. The non sound is now only available in sets. I don't know when it was first introduced, but it has enjoyed a very long production run.
The USRA Medium tenders are also history. That's too bad, I enjoy chopping them up for custom tenders and powered canteens. I've never been especially fond of Vandys.
Yampa Bob, Model Railroader had a review of this IHC 2-10-2 engine in their Oct 2007 edition.
"Performance. The mechanism of our sample 2-10-2 was a little stiff at first, so I blocked it up and ran it for five minutes to help seat the motor brushes. Back on the rails, it started at 7 scale miles per hour and ran smoothly and quietly throughout its speed range. The model's top speed of 60 mph is close to a typical prototype 2-10-2's maximum of 55 mph.
Our sample produced a drawbar pull of 3.2 ounces. That's equivalent to 45 free-rolling freight cars on straight and level track.
Plenty of potential. Now that I've seen how well this 2-10-2 performs, I think it offers a lot of potential for new modelers and those with their own freelanced layouts. These models can easily be modified to produce a roster of big, distinctive home road steam locomotives.
While the model follows no specific prototype, its smooth-running mechanism and familiar lines capture the brutish look and power of a 2-10-2 drag engine."
A fairly good review, especially given the price. Too bad Mehano went bankrupt, hopefully someone will take over, otherwise the low end of the market will be gone.
I began to think I'd wasted my money on the E-Z Command 5 amp booster, because it seems to add nothing to the performance of my F7A-B DCC with sound units & my Spectrum SD45 with DCC running simultaneously. Maybe the Mikado DC with sound will make use of the booster.
I am not sure what the performance increase that you were looking for...???
The booster only gives you the ability to run more locomotives. It does nothing to increase the performance of the ones you already have running.
Engines don't make use of the booster unless there are so many of them on the rails that "suck up" all the current your current supply has.
Hope this makes some sense.
HO-Ron
Bob, examined under brighter light, the dust looks black. It wouldn't stay in the tender long, so I'll just leave it in its bag.
HO-Ron, after several months more seasoning in the hobby since I made those comments, I now agree with you. With 3 connected ovals, I think the 5 amp booster is essential.
Pacific Northern, your information that the 2-10-2's prototypical top speed
is 55 mph will reconcile me to the top speed of 64 mph my Spectrum gets pulling 6 cars, & it should have pulling power for the maximum cars I would use.
I'm always amused at Model Railroader's testing results. They define "easy rolling cars" at .07 ounce. I tune the heck out of my cars, and most are around .1 ounce.
I just referred to my previous tests on a Spectrum 2-8-0, made with 3 different accurate force gauges, 2 of my own design. Drawbar force was 3.5 ounces If I used MRs definition, that would equate to 50 "easy rolling cars".
Of course my Connie has over 30 hours of run time so it's well broken in. As for speed, I seldom run over 1/2 throttle.
I have the same bag of stuff. I assumed it to be graphite for lubrication. I know I'd trust someone lubricating my 2-10-2 with graphite more than I would someone squirting 30 weight on the drivers and wiping 'em down with a greasy rag.
I *hope* Bachmann had the foresight to put that in there to protect us from ourselves!
Rick
-
OkieRick, your suggestion sent me on a search of this forum for graphite. It seems mostly for lubricating couplers. That leaves me still wondering why it accompanies the 2-10-2 & not the 4-8-4 or my SD45s.
Something squeaks when I run my new 4-8-4. Could it be wheels on a new tender? What is the remedy? I have IHC passenger cars that squeak when run, also.
Bob, in regard to free-rolling cars, I just discovered a "clinker" on one of my trains, a Bachmann GN flatcar with load of logs. One or more of its plastic wheelsets is binding. I'm thinking of getting metal wheel sets for it.
I also suggest getting the small tool for reaming / smoothing the journals. Then change out the plastic wheelsets with Kadee metal ones.
Some suggest using graphite in the coupler box, but I never do. Kadee has graphite in a tube, called "Greas-em".
Truck tuner:
http://www.micromark.com/HO-TRUCK-TUNER,8241.html
33" wheelsets for most freight cars:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXNLF9&P=SM
Greas-em:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXNLK8&P=SM
Coupler height gauge:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXNLH6&P=SM
For complete truck/wheel replacements I use these:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXWN06&P=SM
I have never replaced the plastic wheels on my cars. Having metal wheels on all cars could give you a problem if you are using an auto reverser on a short track.
I have about 100 plastic wheelsets you can have. All you have to do is fly out here and pick them up. :D
I threw out about 200 because the axles were rusty.
They are on the real ones :D
Thanks for the links, Bob. I bookmarked them into my Model Trains folder.